Filler Mafia - Day 5

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

I really dislike Darkninjaabc's post here.
Question! Doesn't it seem strange to the rest of you that Darkninjaabc asks others to start something and complains about people not defending themselves whilst not even bothering to put down a vote anywhere?
Like, how exactly does Darkninjaabc envision a scenario where somebody defends themselves if there are no votes placed and therefore no pressure?
But I'm just putting this down and Darkninjaabc being Darkninjaabc and will take this as a sign to ignore all posts from him in the future as I fear that I will be running my head into the same brick wall that I've been presented with in prior games.

Moving on, questions for CF7!
Why do you feel the need to sheep Sky Palladium and given that you call RVS "a mess" and "a necessary evil", why is Murrin scummy for not wanting to partake in it?
Like, you refer to RVS as "a thing", "a mess", and "a necessary evil".
These words of yours imply that you don't believe that RVS is all that beneficial and exists only as a stepping stone that leads into actual discussion.
So, if you only see RVS as a tool that is used to lead into some actual discussion, why does it matter if Murrin decides to abstain from participating in it?
As long as the discussion starts, it shouldn't matter how many people participate in the RVS and with how much zeal does it?
After all, judging by the way that you described the RVS, you're of the opinion that the RVS is completely irrelevant and only the proper discussion that follows should be taken into consideration.
And why did you ignore ActionDan and Darkninjaabc who both also decided that they didn't want to participate in the RVS?
Like, that's super inconsistant.
So Murrin is scummy for not wanting to participate in the RVS because Sky Palladium said so and ActionDan and Darkninjaabc are okay because they haven't been mentioned by anyone else yet.
Is that what you're trying to say?
Do you know what I think?
I think that you're just trying to look relevant to this game whilst actually offering nothing of any value.
By sheeping Sky Palladium's opinion, you'll look like you're more dedicated to the game than you really are, right?
And, on top of that, you get to form an opinion of your own which means that you're contributing! Yay!
So, for those still reading, why does this make CF7 scummy?
The answer is simple! He's faking a safe and relatively loud opinion in order to look like he's contributing more to this game than he actually is in hopes that his activity, or lack thereof, can go unnoticed and we never lynch him for being the scum that he is.

##Unvote
##Vote CF7

Also, calling it here first: Whenever claim time comes around, ActionDan is going to claim that he has a vote related role.

[DNAbc]

Eh dormio I did place a vote, its on you.

Also retrospective apology for the frustration that I've caused you, but I'd very much prefer less of the passive aggressiveness, thanks.

[Murrin]

Come on man, we filled up 8 pages of RVS discussion and then found 2/3 scum on the first day in our last game.  You were there!  I can't believe you forgot it already.

Yeah I guess that's true but I never really know who to vote for.

Don't know who to vote for yet but I like the discussion. I'd throw out a random vote but I feel like people would say "WHY DID YOU SAY YOU'RE NOT AN RVS GUY AND THEN THROW OUT A RANDOM VOTE" so I'll stay quiet for now.

[CF7]

Wowie. What a huge wall of text. I guess, to promote discussion, i'll even reply to it.

Like, you refer to RVS as "a thing", "a mess", and "a necessary evil".
These words of yours imply that you don't believe that RVS is all that beneficial and exists only as a stepping stone that leads into actual discussion.

Well that's what i believe in. It's stupid. Mostly irrelevant without additional information. But it does leads to the actual discussion.

So, if you only see RVS as a tool that is used to lead into some actual discussion, why does it matter if Murrin decides to abstain from participating in it?
As long as the discussion starts, it shouldn't matter how many people participate in the RVS and with how much zeal does it?
After all, judging by the way that you described the RVS, you're of the opinion that the RVS is completely irrelevant and only the proper discussion that follows should be taken into consideration.

If people do not participate in RVS, then where and when that same proper discussion starts? Without some initial posts you can't just accuse someone. Or rather you can, but then it will be no different from actual RVS. And by that logic Murrin's refusal to participate in RVS is scummy.

And why did you ignore ActionDan and Darkninjaabc who both also decided that they didn't want to participate in the RVS?
Like, that's super inconsistant.
So Murrin is scummy for not wanting to participate in the RVS because Sky Palladium said so and ActionDan and Darkninjaabc are okay because they haven't been mentioned by anyone else yet.

Because wording was different. DNA actually voted you. So he participated in RVS. Dan is Dan, honestly. From what i've seen, he likes to analyze things and that's that. Murrin is similar, but he simply refused to participate at all. And since i don't know his meta, that kinda made him scummier in comparison.

Is that what you're trying to say?
Do you know what I think?
I think that you're just trying to look relevant to this game whilst actually offering nothing of any value.
By sheeping Sky Palladium's opinion, you'll look like you're more dedicated to the game than you really are, right?
And, on top of that, you get to form an opinion of your own which means that you're contributing! Yay!
The answer is simple! He's faking a safe and relatively loud opinion in order to look like he's contributing more to this game than he actually is in hopes that his activity, or lack thereof, can go unnoticed and we never lynch him for being the scum that he is.

Congratz! You totes unveiled my nefarious scheme. Because being super invested during RVS phase is that's what we all do, yep. But your effort is commendable.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Like I said, I don't really care about DNA's posts.

Moving on, CF7 fails to really answer my questions and instead prefers to sidestep the issue and offer arguments that go off on tangents.

Well that's what i believe in. It's stupid. Mostly irrelevant without additional information. But it does leads to the actual discussion.

If you actually read my post properly, you might have realized that this is part of the entire point.
The RVS is irrelevant but it leads into discussion. Therefore, why does it matter if one or two people abstain from participating in it when it serves only as a launching pad?
Are you saying that it's impossible to get an early read on somebody without them having placed an early vote?

If people do not participate in RVS, then where and when that same proper discussion starts? Without some initial posts you can't just accuse someone. Or rather you can, but then it will be no different from actual RVS. And by that logic Murrin's refusal to participate in RVS is scummy.

... Oh, wait, you are.
This makes no sense. You're saying that the RVS is irrelevant and is nothing but the groundwork for actual discussion, but here you go on to say that you can't accuse somebody without them having participated in the RVS.
Now that's just all sorts of silly. Your conflicting thoughts on the matter don't make me feel any better about you.

Because wording was different. DNA actually voted you. So he participated in RVS. Dan is Dan, honestly. From what i've seen, he likes to analyze things and that's that. Murrin is similar, but he simply refused to participate at all. And since i don't know his meta, that kinda made him scummier in comparison.

I missed DNA's vote, I tend to ignore his posts in general. I don't care about him right now though.
So what you're saying is that Dan gets a pass for doing the exact same thing as Murrin because he's Dan?
Let's face it here, you didn't really care. You were just sheeping an easy case without much weight to it so that you could pass off that joke of a case as your early game contribution.

Congratz! You totes unveiled my nefarious scheme. Because being super invested during RVS phase is that's what we all do, yep. But your effort is commendable.

Thank you! Now please go roll over and die, scumskiis.

[WHMZakeri]

Hello~

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Hi!

[Shadoweh]

Still 1 page. :< At least there's some walls (citation needed on being thankful for that)
At least Dormio is probably town. Since we probably have 5 doctors one of you can get on hugging him at night.

Don't know who to vote for yet but I like the discussion. I'd throw out a random vote but I feel like people would say "WHY DID YOU SAY YOU'RE NOT AN RVS GUY AND THEN THROW OUT A RANDOM VOTE" so I'll stay quiet for now.

Yes, but people are going to say you're scummy for not voting anyways, so we'd prefer you pick someone and take a stance. It's important for the game of mafia to force everyone to vote just to see where they stand later so throw something out, if you please. There's enough content already imo. What do you think of Sky voting you, do you know him out of game? Is he taking advantage of you, would he normally act like this towards you?

[Murrin]

Yes, but people are going to say you're scummy for not voting anyways, so we'd prefer you pick someone and take a stance. It's important for the game of mafia to force everyone to vote just to see where they stand later so throw something out, if you please. There's enough content already imo.

##vote Zak for keeping his vote on Dormio after Dormio wrote a pretty reasonable, long post.

Without some initial posts you can't just accuse someone. Or rather you can, but then it will be no different from actual RVS. And by that logic Murrin's refusal to participate in RVS is scummy.

CF7, could you elaborate on this? I don't get it.

What do you think of Sky voting you, do you know him out of game? Is he taking advantage of you, would he normally act like this towards you?

In Megatokyo Mafia, Sky wouldn't act like this toward me, but things are pretty different over here from Megatokyo, so I'm not going to hold that against him. I will say that I'm not sure of the meaning behind his vote.

[Sky_Paladin]

In Megatokyo Mafia, Sky wouldn't act like this toward me, but things are pretty different over here from Megatokyo, so I'm not going to hold that against him. I will say that I'm not sure of the meaning behind his vote.

In our most recent game, I pushed for a Wave Master lynch for hating on RVS.  He later flipped scum. 

I also made a case mid day 1 for you, and tried to vig you night 1. 

Are you a different person with different memories?  I don't get it. 

My vote was initially 'I cant believe you forgot our last game' but now its "why are you saying things that happened, didn't happen?"

[Murrin]

In our most recent game, I pushed for a Wave Master lynch for hating on RVS.  He later flipped scum. 

I stand corrected. 

Sky did vote for Wave Master at the beginning of last game because Wave Master said RVS is dumb.

He had never voted for me that way because I'd never said anything about RVS before. 

So, yeah, Sky's vote for me doesn't give me any Town or Scum read, but it is normal Sky behavior.

[Murrin]

Since we probably have 5 doctors

Due to this comment, I will be very interested to hear what kind of role Shadoweh has when the time comes to reveal that.

[Sky_Paladin]

Great.  Well, now that's out of the way; Dormio's wall. 

Question! Doesn't it seem strange to the rest of you that Darkninjaabc asks others to start something and complains about people not defending themselves whilst not even bothering to put down a vote anywhere?

It did seem super hypocritical.  I strongly considered voting him for it, but I'd just changed my vote away to Murren.  Changing my vote again would invalidate any good that voting Murren had caused. 

I considered an extra-special confirm guilty on DNA might be a good response to this but got busy and by the time I got back to the thread, there was a more compelling Dormio post to review. 

So, for those still reading, why does this make CF7 scummy?

Everything else basically...I don't recall anybody sheeping me in living memory so I thought this was odd.  I can get behind lynching rvs-haters only to a certain extent; once your MO becomes 'lynch people who hate rvs' then it becomes a set play, and the value of rvs is diminished.  I voted Murren though because we'd just fucking gone over it in the game we just finished where 2x scums were caught in rvs and I wanted to reach through the screen and shake him until all the salt came out. 

I seem to recall Dormio opening up with pretty big walls early on day 1 as town.  I can at least remember Puzzle and Dragon he caught scum!CF7 in this way, and there was also another game more recently that I can't really remember.  I think this points to town!Dormio. 

I generally agree with what Dormio said and the sentiment behind it. 

##unvote
##vote CF7

[SB]

Dormio (3): Serela, Darkninjaabc, Bike-huni Zakeri
CF7 (2): Dormio, Sky_Paladin
ActionDan (1): Shadoweh
Murrin (1): CF7

Not Voting (2): ActionDan, Murrin

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. There are 36 hours and 14 minutes left in the day.

[DNAbc]

It actually is pretty reasonable for me to want the game to progress but without directly posting myself! If you do remember playing with me, I believe that it is a shared sentiment that my analogy is bad, and when they're empty, even moreso. I decided to not post because that has been a verified fact and me being myself only most often set the gamestate back. That's why I only wanted to speak when I have at least more confidence in my decision.

Alright, since I got started anyway, let me try to keep this coherent. Frankly, I believe the walling is not indicative of both CF7 and Dormio's alignment. Because basically, the reasons dormio provided for CF7 being scum is because his logic isn't sound, which is more commonly know as Punishing Bad Players^TM, I can only imagine that it is in a perfect world where we would lynch the responsive and eager people D1 and have them turn out to be scum, so I have my reservations. And I suppose since there's been more devoted people-pointing-fingers at one another, we can officially declare this RVS, so let me retract my vote before its more confusing

##:Unvote

Then what should be the things we should be concerned with right now? Imho, it is the people who seem to be waiting to coast to day end while pretending to be contributing. Pretending being the keyword here, because while we can hold someone responsible for the opinions they utter as they are recorded down clearly, we cannot logically fault someone for being inconsistent if they are always sheeping other's while adding very little of their own, this in turn brings me to Sky P's behavior,
which as seen in this snippet

Everything else basically...I don't recall anybody sheeping me in living memory so I thought this was odd.  I can get behind lynching rvs-haters only to a certain extent; once your MO becomes 'lynch people who hate rvs' then it becomes a set play, and the value of rvs is diminished.  I voted Murren though because we'd just fucking gone over it in the game we just finished where 2x scums were caught in rvs and I wanted to reach through the screen and shake him until all the salt came out. 

I seem to recall Dormio opening up with pretty big walls early on day 1 as town.  I can at least remember Puzzle and Dragon he caught scum!CF7 in this way, and there was also another game more recently that I can't really remember.  I think this points to town!Dormio. 

I generally agree with what Dormio said and the sentiment behind it. 

##unvote
##vote CF7

In our most recent game, I pushed for a Wave Master lynch for hating on RVS.  He later flipped scum. 

I also made a case mid day 1 for you, and tried to vig you night 1. 

Are you a different person with different memories?  I don't get it. 

My vote was initially 'I cant believe you forgot our last game' but now its "why are you saying things that happened, didn't happen?"

Come on man, we filled up 8 pages of RVS discussion and then found 2/3 scum on the first day in our last game.  You were there!  I can't believe you forgot it already.

Sky P has been, and still is, constantly referring to past games information and bias against players instead of trying to fault them for their commitment this game and whatnot, I believe this to be a strategy to generate apathy, because of the sheer difficulty for players who simply are not immersed enough in past games and the other forum to actually understand and get involved with Sky P and Murrin's conflict. Sky P can get by unnoticed as the playerbase just filter out his arguments without reading them. In addition, the timestamps also prove that while Sky P has been free on most occasions to make a post detailing his train of thought, it was never done and instead he once again resorted to clinging to other people's thoughts.

Heck, even his entire 'DNA is scum' thing originates from Dormio's dismissive statement against my past behavior, his bolded confirm guilty came completely out of the left field and rereading his entire posting history only confirmed my suspicions even more.

For that reason, I'd advocate for us to ##Vote: Sky P and I urge him to explain himself.

[DNAbc]

It actually is pretty reasonable for me to want the game to progress but without directly posting myself! If you do remember playing with me, I believe that it is a shared sentiment that my analogy is bad, and when they're empty, even moreso. I decided to not post because that has been a verified fact and me being myself only most often set the gamestate back. That's why I only wanted to speak when I have at least more confidence in my decision.

Alright, since I got started anyway, let me try to keep this coherent. Frankly, I believe the walling is not indicative of both CF7 and Dormio's alignment. Because basically, the reasons dormio provided for CF7 being scum is because his logic isn't sound, which is more commonly know as Punishing Bad Players^TM, I can only imagine that it is in a perfect world where we would lynch the responsive and eager people D1 and have them turn out to be scum, so I have my reservations. And I suppose since there's been more devoted people-pointing-fingers at one another, we can officially declare this (EDITED IN: the end of) RVS, so let me retract my vote before things become more its more confusing for us

edited for slightly better grammar

[CF7]

If you actually read my post properly, you might have realized that this is part of the entire point.
The RVS is irrelevant but it leads into discussion. Therefore, why does it matter if one or two people abstain from participating in it when it serves only as a launching pad?
Are you saying that it's impossible to get an early read on somebody without them having placed an early vote?

It's not impossible. But placing a vote, coupled with flips and other votes gives additional information on that player.

... Oh, wait, you are.
This makes no sense. You're saying that the RVS is irrelevant and is nothing but the groundwork for actual discussion, but here you go on to say that you can't accuse somebody without them having participated in the RVS.
Now that's just all sorts of silly. Your conflicting thoughts on the matter don't make me feel any better about you.

I probably should have worded that differently. I meant that without some initial interaction between players it's impossible to accuse someone. RVS helps with that. But actual votes are not meant to be the focus of the case.

Like I said, I don't really care about DNA's posts.

I missed DNA's vote, I tend to ignore his posts in general. I don't care about him right now though.

That just shows your own commitment to the game, i guess.

So what you're saying is that Dan gets a pass for doing the exact same thing as Murrin because he's Dan?

That's what i am saying, yes.

Let's face it here, you didn't really care. You were just sheeping an easy case without much weight to it so that you could pass off that joke of a case as your early game contribution.
Thank you! Now please go roll over and die, scumskiis.

Well i do care.

Hello~

Hi. Is there anything else you want to share?

I seem to recall Dormio opening up with pretty big walls early on day 1 as town.  I can at least remember Puzzle and Dragon he caught scum!CF7 in this way, and there was also another game more recently that I can't really remember.  I think this points to town!Dormio. 

Strange. I don't remember that at all. I remember me being caught scum in that game was due to me having a contradictory claim.

I generally agree with what Dormio said and the sentiment behind it. 
##unvote
##vote CF7

Explain to me, how your own vote is better, please.

##Unvote for now.

Cut by DNA, which i'll read a bit later.

[Sky_Paladin]

zzzz

Then what should be the things we should be concerned with right now? Imho, it is the people who seem to be waiting to coast to day end while pretending to be contributing. Pretending being the keyword here, because while we can hold someone responsible for the opinions they utter as they are recorded down clearly, we cannot logically fault someone for being inconsistent if they are always sheeping other's while adding very little of their own, this in turn brings me to Sky P's behavior,

You are voting me because you agree with Dormio and I that CF7's 'sheep Sky's vote on to Murren for his RVS philosophy' was vote-worthy. 

It seems to me that if you were truly looking for players who were coasting to phase end without offering opinions, you might look at players who have said nothing at all (ActionDan, Serela, Shadoweh, Zakeri) to name a few offhand.  Which is a polite way of calling you a liar. 

[Sky_Paladin]

Explain to me, how your own vote is better, please.

I see that you are mainly interested in defending yourself than identifying scum.  IMO that's a scum mindset.  You can do better than omnislashing Dormio and getting into a semantic argument.  But thus far you haven't, so I'm happy with a vote on you as an advance-from-RVS vote.  At the moment I'm kind of coin flipping between you and DNA though because while I see you as defending, I see DNA as using somewhat...bizarre...points as a basis for his vote.  Maybe he is copying Dormio's style to garner attention.  I dunno. 

Anyway.  Apparently I butchered my response to DNA. 

Then what should be the things we should be concerned with right now? Imho, it is the people who seem to be waiting to coast to day end while pretending to be contributing. Pretending being the keyword here, because while we can hold someone responsible for the opinions they utter as they are recorded down clearly, we cannot logically fault someone for being inconsistent if they are always sheeping other's while adding very little of their own, this in turn brings me to Sky P's behavior,

You are voting me because you agree with Dormio and I that CF7's 'sheep Sky's vote on to Murren for his RVS philosophy' was vote-worthy. 

It seems to me that if you were truly looking for players who were coasting to phase end without offering opinions, you might look at players who have said nothing at all (ActionDan, Serela, Shadoweh, Zakeri) to name a few offhand.  Which is a polite way of calling you a liar.

[DNAbc]

I believe coasting to endphase and lurking/disinterest are fundamentally different behaviors, the former is someone who tries to seem opinionated but actually isn't under closer inspection because he is but parroting others arguments, and with what little he contribute his own being outdated information from past games eons ago and referring on unique individual cases from another forum entirely, you are not drawing any conclusions from your own arguments and that's scum behavior which by itself is more lynchworthy than lurking, which could simply be a result of indifference at the status quo, disinterest in our bickering or even habitual.

Also, you are misrepresenting me, I never once stated nor implied that I am shipping dormios argument to vote CF7, my opinion was essentially that while dormio was correct in pointing out the logical faults in CF7's arguments, they aren't a good indicator of scumminess and therefore I won't vote for either of them. That was my point.

Also I do not comprehend how you translated  my vote you as somehow me supporting the notion of CF7 being vote-worthy, were you even paying attention to the game?

[ActionDan]

Goddammit guys walls on page 2

[Sky_Paladin]

Can you please explain why, when Dormio voted, it was 'punishing bad players', but when I voted (for similar + a personal specific reason) it's 'pretending to contribute'.   

[Sky_Paladin]

A little over 30 hours remaining.

Dan, seeing as your here, any thoughts to share?

[Serela]

##Unvote ##Vote CF7
For empty unvoting.

Like hell I'm going to get involved in the RVS semantics discussion.

[DNAbc]

Punishing bad players is not a compliment, it means you are using your weapon (vote) to silence others for their incompetence instead of its original purpose, to hunt scum. I believe it is only ever justified to lynch players for bad gameplay when it is directly inhibiting the scumhunt, such as when town would resort to lynching lurkers if information are insufficient. I don't particularly see CF7 mindset being wrong to such a destructive degree, and I simply don't agree with that to begin with.

Also, you are voting CF7 purely by sheeping dormio, you presentation is one devoid of your own relevant content yet full of confirmation bias. Your vote thusly never carried weight of your own and can be concluded as pushing a wagon for pushing's sake, which, as I have elaborated already, is lynchworthy scum behavior.

Which was why I asked you over and over again to account for your behavior to begin with. Please stop misrepresenting me and explain your stance already.

[DNAbc]

Punishing bad players is not a compliment, it means you are using your weapon (vote) to silence others for their incompetence instead of its original purpose, to hunt scum. I believe it is only ever justified to lynch players for bad gameplay when it is directly inhibiting the scumhunt, such as when town would resort to lynching lurkers if information are insufficient. I don't particularly see CF7 mindset being wrong to such a destructive degree, therefore I simply don't agree with that (being lynching CF7) to begin with.

Edits

[Sky_Paladin]

Please explain the difference between Dormio's vote on CF7, and my vote on CF7. 

Please explain the difference between my vote on Murren, and CF7's vote on Murren. 

Now compare, contrast, and review the result.  That is why I said:

You are voting me because you agree with Dormio and I that CF7's 'sheep Sky's vote on to Murren for his RVS philosophy' was vote-worthy.

Do you understand now?

[DNAbc]

I am not really sure which part did you fail to comprehend

Dormio's vote is based on his own convictions, yours is based on shipping him entirely without your own input.

CF7's vote on Murren is irrelevant to your vote on Murren, which is based on your own confirmation bias and is again devoid of logical thought.

As such, I still cannot see how your quoted statement make sense, perhaps it would do us all some good if you would bother to explain it.

[Sky_Paladin]

I voted CF7 because I agreed with Dormio that CF7's vote was questionable.
The specific reason was because I knew Murren was acting strangely over his RVS vote, as he admitted earlier in this phase (re our previous game).  CF7 couldn't know this because he wasn't in the game.
Therefore I felt this vote was suspicious. 
I don't mind votes on players for dissing RVS or other playstyle things. The way CF7 said it, almost like he was apologizing for the vote, piqued my interest.

"CF7s vote on Murren is irrelevant to your vote on Murren"

It actually isn't, because CF7 explicitly said "sheeping Sky".
The issue I feel your avoiding deliberately is two fold.
1 - that you are wholly focusing on my vote and not considering Dormio's to any significant extent. You dismissed it as not worth discussing. 
2 - you continue to ignore that the basis of my vote on Murren was because I have outside meta on Murren that he acknowledged, and that this is why my vote was not "set play" (as CF7's arguably was, which is why I voted him) as the basis for a 'safe' RVS vote.

[Sky_Paladin]

I'm skeptical of DNA's motives because this push if his started out as supposedly that I am coasting through the game, and that supposedly my posting style this game is supposed to encourage town apathy. 
It's now changed to 'Sky's vote was just sheeping Dormio."
However, DNA didn't establish why it was bad to sheep Dormio, but ok for CF7 to sheep Sky.  Sheeping is itself not an automatic scum tell, either.

At this stage I'm wondering why my I've spent more time arguing with DNA over my vote than CF7.  I'll sleep on it.