Draft Mafia - Game Over

[CF7]

@Mitsuki.
You do realise that you're basically voting me for a RVS joke post? And i am assuming that this is your more or less seriouis vote.

What makes me doing nothing worse than Zak, who you explicitely mentioned, or others doing nothing?
Also, I really don't like how you're all like "Well Raikaria looks scummy to me but I don't want to vote him and will instead prod someone less than 12 hours into the game". (Less than 12 hours passed between CF7's first post with opinions and the game starting)

I think i stated the reason. 2 votes away from the lynch and your lack of reaction to it.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

It's not a RVS joke post any more if you give reasons for it.
Also, your reason sucks.

[SB]

Votecount 1.3
Sky Paladin (2): ActionDan, , Bard
Dormio (1): CF7
CF7 (1): Mitsuki
Bard (1): Zakeri
Mitsuki (1): Sky Paladin
Raikaria (1): Dormio

Not Voting (1): Dr Rawr, Raikaria

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. You have 46.25 hours left in the phase.

[Bardiche]

CF7 and Mitsuki, are very suspicious because the two higher priority roles are very pro-scum.

You're going too fast for me; how are CF7 and Mitsuki suspicious (is that the same as scummy?) for being top of the draft?

[WHMZakeri]

Everything posted between this and my last post has on(ry

I agreed initially with Mitsuki's assessment of Sky, but when I thought about it overnight, I asked myself "Wait, didn't Sky acknowledge that alignments were given before when he mentioned the list of "Most likely roled town to least likely roled?" Then I checked over the post today, and I have no idea what implies that Sky couldn't possibly know that Scum were communicating with each other.

I will say that there is no certainty that town only picked town or scum only picked scum because a large part of the strategy is picking roles to simply block others from having them. a CF7/Mitsuki scumteam could be Tracker and Doctor just for the sake of not having to face those roles to begin with (Especially since having both roles out of the running not only creates strong safeclaims for them, but also nullifies the use of picking up Jack.)

Sky's list is super useless, too, because it's not a list of most likely roled town to least liked roled town, it's a list of most likely roled player to least likely roled player. Alignments were decided before we even picked out numbers, and in case of a Raikaria/Bard scumteam, they were already screwed out of roles before they were rolled alignments, so making a joke out of the RVS tiebreaker (which the tiebreaker would be happening no matter what alignments either of them roled, even scum/scum) would just be a bit of fun for the thread.

The fact that they tied in RPS doesn't prove they are scum, but it certainly doesn't prove that they can't be.



Raikaria, did you have to repost Sky's entire post just to respond to the last line of his post?

Why would he put himself as 6th least likely to be town, for one?

He's not sixth likeliest to be not-town, he's sixth-likeliest to not have a role.
You're right to call bullshit on the validity of his list but you're not actually doing that, you're just using the bullshit of his list against him here.

Slightly suspect of Mitsuki, very suspect of Raikaria right now.
##Unvote: Bardiche
##Vote: Raikaria

[WHMZakeri]

Bards tinge on Mitsuki feels much more important than the tinges he puts out on Sky, and I don't like the arbitrarity of sticking to sky over Mitsuki, but ... being arbitrary this early in the game is perfectly fine and he did pick up on Sky first so his priorities do fit. I guess I'm leaning townish on this.

Dormio is bad until he isn't. Ignore~

Feel better about Raikaria's unvote but the attempt to use role priority confuses me absolutely. Doesn't priority just refer to when the actions take place during the night phase? How does that factor into who picks what roles?

I was under the impression that 'Factional Kill' is Vig.

No, I'm absolutely certain the "Factional Kill" is in fact the "Factional Kill".

[WHMZakeri]

Alignments were decided before we even picked out numbers,

This argument only makes sense if I had used the word "after" instead of "before" and that is also what this line should have said.

[Raikaria]

The roles in this game are:
 
[Role PM<quotes]

The priority list is as follows (with the Strongman first):

-Strongman
-Roleblocker
-Doctor
-Factional Kill
-Neighbourizer
-Roleclop
-Tracker

That's what I'm getting my stuff from. I'm confused. What's Factional Kill then? Is it just nilla scum?

[Raikaria]

Raikaria, did you have to repost Sky's entire post just to respond to the last line of his post?
He's not sixth likeliest to be not-town, he's sixth-likeliest to not have a role.
You're right to call bullshit on the validity of his list but you're not actually doing that, you're just using the bullshit of his list against him here.

I think posting the drafting order was a mistake, period.  We know that players near the top of the list could probably pick any role that they wanted. 

OH. I thought it was 'liklihood to have rolled town' and it was just a typo.

[Raikaria]

Also I messed up my quotes above I shouldn't mafia at 10:45pm.

[WHMZakeri]

I said it before but I'll repeat again, the Factional Kill is the Factional kill. part of the original ruleset of Mafia is that all members of the mafia have the ability to kill once during each nightphase,
That's also what the Jack of all trades is, it gives you the option to use a special kill instead of the Factional Kill, which is why the role is only useful to scum (Because town obviously doesn't have a factional kill).

All scum possess the Factional Kill, regardless of if they have a role or not.

[WHMZakeri]

wow it has been way too long since we've played mafia.

[Dr Rawr]

dont think raiakria is scum. how could he think his own factional kill was a vig.

[Dr Rawr]

oh btw i dont really feel like posting ill make one later

[Sky_Paladin]

@Raikaria, @Zakeri

The list I posted was my frustration at the draft order being posted, since it outs the roled town players to mafia.  As I complained here, in the confirmation phase. 

Pretend for a second that you are mafia and you see this list:

1) CF7
2) Mitsuki
3) Zakeri
4) Dan
5) Dormio
6) Sky Paladin
7) Rawr
Raikaria
9) Bard

And it is night phase, and you want to know who you should kill.  I think we can agree mafia will want to kill roled town over vanilla and that they don't want to hit their own dudes, so they only have to pick from seven players. 

We know that players at the end of the list are more likely to have been unable to select a role, and are probably vanilla town.  So the mafia will want to hit players at the top of the list to eliminate roled town.  In the middle, we don't really know.  And plus, we don't know the exact placement of mafia, so we have to be prepared to bump the list up or down a slot at some point.  PLUS it's possible that somebody at the bottom of the list scored a power role, it's just *more likely* that they didn't, and it's *more likely* that the ones at the top did. 

1) CF7/Roled
2) Mitsuki/Roled
3) Zakeri/Roled
4) Dan/???
5) Dormio/???
6) Sky Paladin/???
7) Rawr/vanilla
Raikaria/vanilla
9) Bard/vanilla

The value of the list is to suggest who the doctor, if there is one, should cover this night phase. 

Do you understand now? 

@Zak
"I have no idea what implies that Sky couldn't possibly know that Scum were communicating with each other."
I didn't know scum could communicate with each other, since I thought they had to pick from the draft like we did.  The initial rules post was amended January 30 so it's possible that was included after I had read the rules.  It's also likely I just missed it. 
For the record, I didn't know that scum could communicate, but there's no way for me to prove that, and even if I could, being confirmed town would just increase the likelihood of being night hit with no likelihood of protection.  So I'll pass for now, thanks. 

@Mitsuki
"Also I posted to say that I'm townreading you, if that's an empty post then lol"
I think town reads are basically useless since they don't really advance game state.  I am interested in scum reads, which you have provided and does count in your favor. 
@ 'that point' -> Somehow I missed it, re: Zak, above.  That does remove one concrete point against you.  I'll reflect on if I still have a case when I complete this post. 

"I've seen townies being super reactionary and posting bad logic and thought they were scum for that before."
Pretty much why I'm not voting Raikaria.  I've roasted him for this before and he was town, and then the next time he was scum.  I don't know how to tell between reactionary scum Raikaria and reactionary town Raikaria.  I need something more solid. 

"Actually I'm semi-serious about CF7 and Dormio being buddies"
I was surprised to see CF7 say he was buddies with Dormio because...if Dormio later flips scum it's basically suicide.  Refuge in audacity?  I could buy that CF7 was scum but psuedo-outing himself in RVS to get a free mislynch of Dormio seems like a bad trade to me.  I'm undecided for now. 

@Bard
I don't know how to highlight Mitsuki's post as bad other than 'please study it to the same depth you have studied mine'.  What was the purpose of Mitsuki's post?  Why did she suddenly single Sky out?  What did she actually achieve?  The motive seems questionable, and that is why I questioned it. 

@Raikaria
"I don't think Sky is scum now, but I also have no clue who is the scums now."
The point that you refer to as the reason for unvoting me was disproved by Mitsuki a few posts prior, so you should re-evaluate and consider other points made by other players. 

Could you provide a list of your current scumpicks? 

Raikaria

Basically wiriting off Mitsuki and CF7 as most likely to be Town is stupid because the 2 highest priority roles are pro-scum.

This is really alarming because it shows Raikaria is confusing priority with draft order, a mistake town wouldn't make. 

@Dan
Post
You mention twice that you like Mitsuki but you don't like me, but you don't say why. 

I do tbh and I don't like the post.

I do find your post about townie though.

Can you clarify why you think Mitsuki is town, and why you think I am scum? 

@DrRawr
DO YOU EXIST?

***

Cut by Rawr lol

The phase is already half over and you have zero posts.  I have no problem consolidate voting you if you don't improve. 

[WHMZakeri]

Okay, so like I thought, Sky was just pointing out who had roles, and not implying anyone else was more town than anyone else.
Also, I guess I don't really care if the towntell applies to you or not, Sky, I just want to know where the towntell is coming from directly, since it influences whether or not I agree with the fact that Mitsuki is just making pointless fluff posts.

that said, I agree that doctor should just stick to protecting whoever's in the first two slots unless they seriously believe one of them is scum. I realize that puts me in the most danger of being NKed, since I'm in the third slot, but on the other hand I don't have to care about this game anymore if I am NKed.

[CF7]

@Sky_P roles table. It's a bit more complicated than that.
I am kind of sick of this rolespec on D1, tbh.

##Unvote
And i do not want to vote for Raikaria, because of his logic, because it's his standard logic more or less, and well i think it's really non-indicative of his alignment.

Out of people i want to vote for i'd say my pick would be Mitsuki. Justifying her RVS vote as a thing, because i jokingly admitted so is not really a townie thing to do and basically creating a wagon for no valid reason.
##Vote Mitsuki

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

Totes gunning for the Raikaria/CF7 dream.

[Raikaria]

The value of the list is to suggest who the doctor, if there is one, should cover this night phase. 

Except it also acts like a shortlist to scum for people to target to hit power roles. OK; so the Doc is protecting 1 or 2. So scum can just hit 3 or 4 or something and still probobly hit town PR's.

As for scumpicks; it's hard for me to come to conclusions right now on the matter due to the focus on me, and the amount of rolespec. I'm bad at identifying scum from attacks on me, and I'm bad at rolespec. I guess I don't like Dormio's reasons for voting me the least, so if I *had* to vote right now I'd vote there, but honestly nothing stands out to me as being a sure sign of da scums yet.

[Sky_Paladin]

I know I said I would re evaluate my Mitsuki vote but I was kind of hoping for more people to post before dropping another wall of text.

I don't like Bard for showing up apparently only to defend Mitsuki yet not evaluate her post.
I don't like Dan for not explaining his reasons.
I'm particularly Interestd because I saw Mitsukis post as scummy and they see it as town somehow. Enough to vote me for questioning her. Bard provided a potentially viable explanation but he did not explain why Mitsuki appears town.

I dislike pretty much everyhing Raikaia had posted this game. I keep having to find excuses not to vote them. We haven't played for a long time so sure we are a bit rusty but holy wow Raikaria what are you doing.  I think Raikaria - if town - is the easiest mislynch. So I can consider a Cf7/Dormio scum team since their were both voting there for a moment. So I want to consider their content next and see if there is something g solid to Mitsukis points.

Dormio/Bard/Dan/Rawr should post more content.

[Dormio Ergo Sum]

So I can consider a Cf7/Dormio scum team since their were both voting there for a moment.

Excuse me? I'm still voting there, thank you very much.

[Mitsuki]

To people who are saying that my CF7 "case" is shit: Well, maybe it's because it is? I didn't have any scumreads, so I decided to pursue something dumb to see what would happen (I didn't fake the logic though, I just thought it was dumb from the very beginning). Not a very good idea for me, but at least now I have a lot more to comment on than before. I don't really see CF7 as scummy based on tone of his posts, anyways. He's null.

Everyone should stop voting people on being bad and making dumb cases. I don't really care if you want to pursue me for that since I can defend myself well enough but stop voting other people for that. It's dumb. Most of the people on MotK will make dumb cases and post bad logic at some point. We aren't known for posting the best logic; see how almost all games are won by scum. Heck, most players anywhere will post bad logic at some point.
So stop equating bad logic to scum logic, it's the wrong way to go about scumhunting. Ask to yourself: what is this person trying to achieve with that? Is that purpose townie or scummy? Does this actually make sense from their point of view? Did they misunderstand something?

And now, content:

I think Bardiche is scum because of his bit on SkyPal here:

I summarily dislike his Mitsuki vote post. I dislike it because he builds a strawman ("this is what Mitsuki could have done, BUT THEN DIDN'T!"), misrepresents Mitsuki's post, and quips about disliking Mitsuki's Town clear. That last one admittedly isn't very strong, but it feels like such a bogus reason to throw on at the end that it offends my sensibilities. I dislike his earlier post quipping about likelihood of having a role, because role discussion really isn't relevant right now and it feels forced to introduce it as a topic. Looks like contributing, is really just throwing up smoke and mirrors to me.

1. There is no real reason given as of why Sky's misrep would have scum intent, and is not a misunderstanding (which is common from SkyPal). Same goes for the rest, it's pointing out stuff that's "bad" but not really "scummy" for him.
2. Wording is overly exaggerated, seems like he's trying to paint SkyPal as scummy with stuff that's usually seen as scummy, but actual logic isn't very strong (first point).
3. Scum rethoric, in italic. Similar to second point, it's an exaggeration of what SkyPal's done.

Basically the way Bardiche goes about his logic does not take into account the player's usual playstyle to paint him as scummy. As town I think he'd know much better.

##Unvote
##Vote: Bardiche


@Dormio: how is this a scumtell and not a Raikariatell. How does this differentiate from his town logic? He posts bad logic as either alignment.

Zakeri seems townie for reasons I won't share for now, also I wouldn't expect him to be as unconcerned as scum to post like he is. He seems like the kind of person that would be very careful as scum.

Replies in next post, I don't want to wall too much.

[Mitsuki]

Replies:

I think town reads are basically useless since they don't really advance game state.

Townreads aren't useless since they can influence who other people vote, just like scumreads. Also they can help you to PoE the scumteam.

I agreed initially with Mitsuki's assessment of Sky, but when I thought about it overnight, I asked myself "Wait, didn't Sky acknowledge that alignments were given before when he mentioned the list of "Most likely roled town to least likely roled?" Then I checked over the post today, and I have no idea what implies that Sky couldn't possibly know that Scum were communicating with each other.

Yeah I misunderstood, since SkyPal used "roled town" to refer as town with roles, and I misread it as rolled town.


... I don't think I'm replying to anything else, sorry. Just tell me if you don't think what I've already said covers what you brought up.

[Raikaria]

I dislike pretty much everyhing Raikaia had posted this game. I keep having to find excuses not to vote them. We haven't played for a long time so sure we are a bit rusty but holy wow Raikaria what are you doing. 

I don't know all this early rolespec has made me confused.

[Bardiche]

Raikaria, why are CF7 and Mitsuki suspicious, and is suspicious the same as scummy?

Bard provided a potentially viable explanation but he did not explain why Mitsuki appears town.

I don't need to explain why a Scumread appears Town.  This is a misrepresentation because you're attributing thoughts and claims to me where I have made none of them.

Sky Paladin, how can you use "I have to keep finding reasons not to vote them" and "I think Raikaria is the easiest mislynch" in the same sentence? While you're busy explaining, care to add an explanation where exactly you stand on Raikaria, and what excuses you make to yourself to not vote him? I'm confused on your stance re: Raikaria and it reads as though you think he's scummy.

Mitsuki's tacit defending of Sky Paladin is almost textbook chainsaw defending. Focusing on merely one point (Sky Paladin's misrep) and claiming I'm "exaggerating about what [Sky Pal]'s done" conveniently ignores whether or not Sky Paladin's actions are town-minded, while subtly suggesting that they are ("common from SkyPal"). If I have to spoonfeed why Paladin's actions are scummy: his strawman is scummy because he pretends you're scum for failing to do any of the four things he mentioned. His misrepresentation as "empty content post" is dishonest and scum minded, because his summary leaves out the content of the post and pretends it doesn't exist. Focusing on discussing roles over discussing who's scum has the potential to draw in others; any discussion that isn't focused on finding scum is discussion that benefits scum by sheer virtue of distracting Town from its wincondition.

Therefore, Sky Paladin is Scum, because he employs three tactics which all serve to distract Town and further a Scum agenda.

##Unvote
##Vote: Mitsuki

To say nothing about your validation for your CF7 vote, I can't rhyme Town intent in a textbook chainsaw defence. Defending Sky Paladin on the basis that "he's always like this" purports that Sky Paladin is completely logical, sound and brilliant whenever he's scum. Last I checked, rolling scum doesn't turn you into Buddha.

[Bardiche]

Raikaria, you can blame rolespec all you want, it's not going to change that you're blundering about left and right. Last I checked, you weren't a shit player. A few weeks of no Mafia doesn't suddenly make an otherwise decent player think vigilantes now have "factional kills", and it smells very much like a refuge in audacity to me. If not Mitsuki, I'd want to lynch Raikaria at this point for refuging in audacity and distracting the Town with his sudden show of utter incompetence. None of his posts on the last two pages have contributed to scum hunting with the exception of his Sky Paladin vote: everything after that is Raikaria pretending he's new to the game and needs explanation on common Mafia terms.

I'm not convinced Raikaria developed dementia inbetween this game and the last game he played.

[SB]

Votecount 1.4
Mitsuki (3): Sky Paladin, CF7, Bard
Raikaria (2): Dormio, Zakeri
Sky Paladin (1): ActionDan
Bard (1): Mitsuki

Not Voting (2): Dr Rawr, Raikaria

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. You have 24 hours left in the phase.

[WHMZakeri]

To people who are saying that my CF7 "case" is shit: Well, maybe it's because it is? I didn't have any scumreads,

##Unvote
##Vote: Mitsuki (L-1 Warning)

The tone of this line set off huge gut-based alarms.

[WHMZakeri]

It's might just be how I approach the game, but the overall tone of the entire two paragraphs that line highlights is a little too aggressive for this early in the game. Especially since it's only purpose is self-defense.

I accept Mitsuki's answer to my question, though. It looks like half the game was confused on what that list Sky posted was for.

[Raikaria]

Raikaria, why are CF7 and Mitsuki suspicious, and is suspicious the same as scummy?

Well apparently the reason I thought CF7 and Mituski were suspicious was based on my misunderstanding of Sky's chart. So it's kinda null and void now.

And what else would you call a town 'Factional Kill' if not a Vigilante? I think it's a perfectly acceptable misconception, although admittedly I made it. I thought 'Factional Kill' was a selectable role. I was wrong.

I am struggling to understand the logic behind the Mitsuki wagon. Zak's reason is the one I follow the most. I'm not really seeing a Mitsuki lynch right now personally. And I do not like how Zakeri put Mitsuki at L-1 with 24 hours left. Dangerous thing to do.

I'll probobly actually do something more coherent in the morning. And actually figure out who to vote because right now I'm reading through this 2 pages of game content and drawing blanks except thinking 'my god I'm derping hard'.