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There was a touhou site
That played Mafia every night
But one day the fun
Became too real for some
And killings were soon brought to light
Welcome to MotK Mafioso Mafia, the game where you might potentially catch yourself as scum! Flavor will unfortunately be minimal, but hopefully the game will be enjoyable nonetheless.
Rules(copied almost directly from Invasion)
1) All Days wil last 72 hours (3 days). If Town is in LYLO, the Day will last 168 hours (7 days). All Nights will last approximately 24 hours. Any and all Night Actions must be submitted within 24 hours of the moderator announcing the start of the Night phase.
2) Extensions are allowed, but only if a majority of living players vote to extend the day. There will be a maximum allowable amount of 1 24-hour extension per day, and no more than 3 extensions over the course of the game.
3) Thou Shalt Not Edit Thine Posts. Thou Shalt Not Change Thy Nickname During The Game. Thou Shalt Not Delete Thine Posts. I can tell who edits, deletes, or changes what, and I will come down on you like the fist of God.
4) In the event of a tie, no Lynch will occur. In the event of a majority not being reached, no Lynch will occur. You may also vote to lynch No Lynch-chan, but she may only be lynched once. Don't bully No Lynch-chan.
5) Flavor and roles are completely unrelated, and roles were assigned randomly to all players. Don't attempt to correlate the two.
6) Dead players may "Bah!" post once. This post may be amusing, but must also be utterly useless in relevance to all players from an in-game perspective. Keep your opinions to yourself after you're dead.
7) Players may not contact any other player by any means other than in the game thread unless their role permits them to do so. This holds true whether you are alive or dead.
8) Players are expected to post a significant contribution at least once every 24 hours. Failure to do so will result in a prod PM asking you to show up in-game. If there is no in-game response 24 hours after the prod PM, a modkill will occur.
9) Scum may talk to each other during the day. No one is to discuss the game in the thread during the night. You may play forum games or react positively or negatively to a card flip, but you are not allowed to publicly analyze other players.
10) There does not exist any role in this game whose win condition is directly assisted by the death of the player with the role (such as a Jester). Players may choose to sacrifice themselves for the good of their team depending on the situation, but no role is inherently enhanced via death. There are also no roles with stupidly obscure win conditions (such as a Politician).
11) Have fun, and don't be a dick.
Still Alive
1. Roukanken
2. Serela
3. UncertainKitten
4. Kitten4U
5. huh what
7. Kefit
8. Chaore
10. Furienify
11. Zentillion
... not
6. Kilgamayan, playing Zakeri, Substitute Player #1
9. Zakeri, playing huh what, Townie
12. Alice Margatroid, playing Alice Margatroid, Embodiment of Townie Rage
13. Carthrat, playing Kefit, Obvtown
Role PMs forthcoming if I don't pass out first. Do not post until you have received your PM. <3
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WHERE ARE THE PMS, EDIBLE
YOU SAID THERE WOULD BE PMS
No I don't want Edible's pms fluids
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Rules(copied almost directly from Invasion)
1) All Days wil last 72 hours (3 days). If Town is in LYLO, the Day will last 168 hours (7 days). All Nights will last approximately 24 hours. Any and all Night Actions must be submitted within 24 hours of the moderator announcing the start of the Night phase.
4) In the event of a tie, no Lynch will occur. In the event of a majority not being reached, no Lynch will occur.
5) Flavor and roles are completely unrelated, and roles were assigned randomly to all players. Don't attempt to correlate the two.
6) Dead players may "Bah!" post once. This post may be amusing, but must also be utterly useless in relevance to all players from an in-game perspective. Keep your opinions to yourself after you're dead.
7) Players may not contact any other player by any means other than in the game thread unless their role permits them to do so. This holds true whether you are alive or dead.
8) Players are expected to post a significant contribution at least once every 24 hours. Failure to do so will result in a prod PM asking you to show up in-game. If there is no in-game response 24 hours after the prod PM, a modkill will occur.
9) Scum may talk to each other during the day. No one is to discuss the game in the thread during the night. You may play forum games or react positively or negatively to a card flip, but you are not allowed to publicly analyze other players.
10) There does not exist any role in this game whose win condition is directly assisted by the death of the player with the role (such as a Jester). Players may choose to sacrifice themselves for the good of their team depending on the situation, but no role is inherently enhanced via death. There are also no roles with stupidly obscure win conditions (such as a Politician).
(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2066/skeptical.gif)
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DON'T BULLY NO-LYNCH CHAN KILGA
Anyway, hit what counts for a lull at work so I'll hopefully be sending out role PMs in the next hour or so.
Edit: Role PMs are presently going out. Please wait warmly.
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All role PMs have been released into the wild. Please confirm in-thread.
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Confirmed
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then sings my soul, my savior god, to thee
how great thou art, how great thou art
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Firmdecon get.
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/confirm
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Present and accounted for.
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/profirm
I don't like being against things.
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Somewhere far beyond, the march of time - it has begun.
Somewhere far beyond your reality; And then the march of time begins.
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I already know I'm going to have lots of fun this game~
/confirm.
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Confirmed and ready to get rolling, captain!
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Confirmed~
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HEY!
come on come on
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I'm extant.
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C-O-N-F-I-R-M-A-T-I-O-N
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I think that's everybody.
Zentillion, I'm temporarily changing your name to preserve my sanity.
DAY 1... START!
You have 72 hours.
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##Vote: Zakeri
Why does Byakuren have white crowns as hands in your avatar?
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##Yuyuko Doll: pesco47
##Vote: UncertainKitten
The classics are the best, after all.
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##Vote: Edible
Obvscum, knows the mafia, won't tell us (ry
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Vote: Kilgamayan for wasting a Vig shot on someone outside the game.
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Can't be too careful, y'know?
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##Vote: Alice Margatroid
Pink is an extremely suspicious color.
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##Vote:UncertrainKitten
[insert random bullshit reason here] :3
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Any reason why you chose UK to give a bullshit reason for voting?
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Any reason why you chose UK to give a bullshit reason for voting?
I was just joking about how everyone is pretty much doing nonsense stuff at this point; of course, there isn't anything else we CAN do, since we've got absolutely nothing to go on yet. So it's to be expected.
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##Vote Chaore for not bolding his vote.
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I was just joking about how everyone is pretty much doing nonsense stuff at this point; of course, there isn't anything else we CAN do, since we've got absolutely nothing to go on yet. So it's to be expected.
I was mainly kidding since you just said you had no reason at all (and therefore wouldn't have a reason to answer me with), but okay, I'll keep that in mind~
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I was mainly kidding since you just said you had no reason at all (and therefore wouldn't have a reason to answer me with), but okay, I'll keep that in mind~
ITT not only sarcasm, but kidding as well does not travel easily over the internet! People always seem so serious~
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I felt the question was inane enough to not require a colonvee attached to it, but okay.
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##Unvote
##Vote: Huh What
Backtracking :3
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##Vote: Kilga onto your tricks, buster
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##Vote: Pes-ohwait.
##Vote: UncertainKitten
Two town roles with blocking powers? What were you thinking?
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Seeing how amusing this was in the last game someone pulled it, time for some Advice Momizi!
(http://molniya.ath.cx/advicemomizi_mafia.jpg)
I think I'm onto something here guize.
##Vote: Alice Margatroid
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alice I thought better of you :(
##Unvote, ##Vote: Alice heeeeere we go again with the voting of the stupid thingies
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##Vote: Alice
Lemming train~
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This isn't the shitstorm I was hoping for.
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I uh...
##Unvote.
This is incredibly silly. I am not much for silly things, sadly enough.
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##Unvote: UncertainKitten
##Vote: Carthrat
Last time a self-vote happened, the next person to hop on them was scum. HMMMMMMMMMM
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Dammit, I thought Pesco not being in this game meant we would avoid stupid crap like this. >_>
##Unvote, Vote: Chaore. Why are you jumping off a wagon for being 'silly'? IT'S THE FREAKING RVS.
People always seem so serious~
You must be new here. :V
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##Vote: Pes-ohwait.
##Vote: UncertainKitten
Two town roles with blocking powers? What were you thinking?
That you should have brought that up in post game last game. Well, that and it was hilarious, and actually decreased the chances of town screwing themselves while on their own being scummy roles, which was their purpose
##Unvote, Vote Furienfly
Third (second?) on opportunist wagon, also learn to bold.
Also, this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg317364#msg317364) garners and FoS Serela, for Day 1 fatalism and setting up an excuse for lowered participation.
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Well, We've got three people open for free bandwagoning, now. Let's see which one everyone piles onto.
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(http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/9282/advicemomizixanth1.jpg)
##Unvote: Carthrat
##Vote: Zakeri
How about we pile on you instead for deciding it's not worth your time to express your opinion of or throw a vote onto any of those "free bandwagons" in addition to making useless noise?
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##Vote: Roukanken
Okay. There are two people who'd rather push for the stupid lynch, and instead you're going for the one who doesn't. Essentially finding moving off of it more scummy than actually voting for it.
Its almost as if you're passively defending that wagon for some reason. I can take a few guesses as to why.
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Man Edible why am I doing your job for you :<
Zakeri (2): huh what, Kilgamayan
UncertainKitten (1): Kilgamayan, NeoSerela, Roukanken
Kilgamayan (0): Zakeri, Carthrat
Alice Margatroid (3): Chaore, Alice Margatroid, Carthrat, Furienify
Chaore (2): Kitten4u, Roukanken
huh what (1): Zakeri
Carthrat (0): Kilgamayan
Furienify (1): UncertainKitten
Roukanken (1): Chaore
No vote: Kefit, Zentillion
Chaore: Passive wagon defense charges? Over RVS stuff? Seriously? C'mon.
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Nice OMGUS, by the way.
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opinions
Alice is an Idiot for self-voting.
Carthrat and Furien are idiots for bangwagoning someone who started the bandwagon on himself.
Chaore is an idiot for unvoting and not revoting someone else.
Roukanken is an Idiot for voting Chaore for being an idiot.
I'm happy with my vote so far.
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Ok, seriously Kilga? I was planning to wait and see with you but what is up with this?
I see you doing just about everything you DON'T as town. You are active D1, you are doing that stupid "Hey guys here's a complimentary votecount thing", you've made a choice on a D1 wagon, though I did as well and it's kinda subtle.
Seriously? I'm not feeling town Kilga right now, but it's friggen page 2 so I don't feel like I can really consider this a serious case. Regardless, I can't really ignore this anymore ##Unvote, Vote Kilgamayan
I have some more theories wrt connections but it's way too early to get into them.
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All these cases are just people being idiots
Witty. Also useless.
Chaore pulling an OMGUS does not impress. Let me get this clear - Alice was at L-3 when you unvoted. Why did you unvote him just for the sake of keeping him safe?
Ninja'd by UK voting Kilga for not committing to meta. Given that Alice and Zak have given him decent things to comment on respectively I don't see why posting a few times with decent points qualifies as scummy.
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Thing is I don't feel they are decent posts. And it's actually the vote count that pushed me into voting him. What the hell was that?
It's weak, and it's page 2. But I'm getting major bad vibes from Kilga right now. So I figured I'd state as such ^-^;.
Course, I suppose you'd HAVE to defend Kilga. That last post was purely parroting him.
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Man Edible why am I doing your job for you :<
Zakeri (2): huh what, Kilgamayan
UncertainKitten (1): Kilgamayan, NeoSerela, Roukanken
Kilgamayan (0): Zakeri, Carthrat
Alice Margatroid (3): Chaore, Alice Margatroid, Carthrat, Furienify
Chaore (2): Kitten4u, Roukanken
huh what (1): Zakeri
Carthrat (0): Kilgamayan
Furienify (1): UncertainKitten
Roukanken (1): Chaore
No vote: Kefit, Zentillion
lololo
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lololo
lololo indeed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYU7oG2V7uc)
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EDIBLE I DON'T SEE UK'S VOTE FOR KILGA ON THAT VOTECOUNT STOP BEING INACCURATE
Course, I suppose you'd HAVE to defend Kilga. That last post was purely parroting him.
It's Page 2. Sorry that I couldn't produce some new meaning from the joke votes.
And you're voting Kilga for...being helpful? Okay, I'm lost.
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No...it's the fact that there are a series of things a mafioso can do to look protown without any actual cost to their side. Posting votecounts is one of the big ones.
It makes you look proactive and helpful, but since a votecount is liable to come soon anyway, and at this early stage it's not like it sheds light on someone being close to lynch. Therefore, it's basically a cost free action that does give you minor town cred.
Which you are, quite frankly, demonstrating the effectiveness of.
Can a pro town person do it? Sure. It's just coupled with the bad vibe I've been getting, I'm not so sure that's the case right now.
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It sounds to me more like you're trying too hard. Where exactly is this 'scum vibe' you're getting from Kilga? Because he's posting content, he's scum? What sort of screwed up meta is that?
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See, that's a friggen strawman right there.
You know what? How about you demonstrate for me this "content" you see on Kilga's part. And demonstrate how it helps town.
I'm pretty sure I can counter it.
Also, why are you defending Kilga? He's a big boy, he can handle himself.
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You know what? How about you demonstrate for me this "content" you see on Kilga's part. And demonstrate how it helps town.
I'm pretty sure I can counter it.
Whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? If you have him on gut, then just say as much. Otherwise, the burden of proof's on you.
And saying I don't understand where your case is coming from counts as defending Kilga? Am I not entitled to an opinion? >_>
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Man I want to snark all over this latest series of posts (and UK's case in general) but that doesn't help anyone.
I posted the vote count because the game had gone 17 hours without one. Some of us are visual learners. I'm used to playing games where you see at least three or four vote counts in the first 17 hours, not zero.
If you're going to play the metagame you should know that I, of all people in this game, don't need vote counts to feign content as scum, and I feel dirty even talking this much about it.
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Let me get this clear - Alice was at L-3 when you unvoted. Why did you unvote him just for the sake of keeping him safe?
I got the lynch count wrong, and I believe I've made it clear that I was not in favor of the lynch, and did not feel all too comfortable sitting on that vote for a lengthy period of time. Pretty much all there is to it.
Once again, you're taking this seriously for me moving away from him being lynched. Why is this bad? I'm not seeing you eye to eye here.
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You are entitled to an opinion, yes. Your opinion is that my case on Kilga is crap. It is mostly gut, which I do believe I mentioned indirectly, saying I got bad vibes. I'm trying to explain those bad vibes, or was trying to anyway, since just gut doesn't make for a very convincing case.
Now, you do have a point that the burden of proof is on me, but the fact that you have gotten into a protracted argument about me regarding another player's innocence...bothers me greatly. I'm sure you are familiar with the word chainsaw, correct? Trouble is, I can't accuse you of that unless Kilga flips scum. So, while I feel that you are engaging in a chainsaw defense, it can't really be used against you until one of you flips.
Cut by Kilga: That post should not be doing anything about my read of you except increasing my bad feelings. Regardless, there's a certain charm to it that does make me feel that perhaps I was hasty.
No, I'm not going to unvote you, but I'm still open to revising my opinion :P.
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TOTALLY ORIGINAL AND EXTREMELY UNIQUE VOTE COUNT
Zakeri (2): huh what, Kilgamayan
UncertainKitten (1): Kilgamayan, NeoSerela, Roukanken
Kilgamayan (1): Zakeri, Carthrat, UncertainKitten
Alice Margatroid (3): Chaore, Alice Margatroid, Carthrat, Furienify
Chaore (2): Kitten4u, Roukanken
huh what (1): Zakeri
Carthrat (0): Kilgamayan
Furienify (0): UncertainKitten
Roukanken (1): Chaore
No vote: Kefit, Zentillion
ORIGINAL VOTECOUNT DO NOT STEAL
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Whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'?
You've been playing Mafia along with the rest of us. Given a reason and half a chance, you could answer the question. :P
That's not how you solve a Burden of Proof Falacy, Rou. It gives UK the chance to explain what she's talking about using postlinks, and it just makes Her look more town and you look lazy.
Also, In ten words or more, explain why your vote is on Chaore at this point in time, Rou.
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I'm going to firstly say that it's a bad habit of mine to feel an urge to respond to a) posts that ninja me, and b) cases which make my head hurt in terms of how ridiculous they are. Your case was both of those, and in your apparent 'explanation' you have offered nothing other than gut to explain yourself.
Meanwhile, back to my ACTUAL case...
Once again, you're taking this seriously for me moving away from him being lynched. Why is this bad? I'm not seeing you eye to eye here.
Three points.
- Firstly, the odds of a quick-wagon actually occuring this early in the day are pretty much zero. Why so afraid of seeing a wagon reach a decent speed?
- Secondly, what exactly disconcerted you enough about the wagon to convince you to move your vote? You didn't clarify beyond thinking the wagon was 'silly', missing the point that we have to start with a silly case to get to a serious case.
- Thirdly, you did nothing with your vote afterwards. I'll say it a million times if I have to, not using your vote in D1 is terrible Town play.
Ninja'd by Zak citing a fallacy I've never heard of. And besides, it doesn't really hold considering that she STILL hasn't offered proof. As for my Chaore vote, see above.
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The funny thing is Rou, most of your posts make me feel the same way, about the head hurting due to ridiculousness ^-^
And I've explained why the burden of proof has returned to you, Rou. You should read.
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Now, you do have a point that the burden of proof is on me
And I've explained why the burden of proof has returned to you, Rou
You lost me.
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Read the rest of my statement Rou? And stop strawmanning? You've made enough hay to feed a horse for a year.
I'd like you to start actually addressing existing arguments rather than trying to bullshit your way through. Thanks ^-^.
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1. I honest to god have no freaking clue what you're talking about. I don't see any explanation as to why I have to explain myself beyond 'You'redefendingKilgayoumustbescumperformingchainsawdefense!' when that isn't even what a Chainsaw Defense is.
What I'm doing - 'I think case on A is bad, I think B is scummy for suggesting it.'
Chainsaw Defense - 'Oh noes, my scumbuddy A is getting voted! I'd better come up with a reason to attack B!'
See these, UK? Not. The. Same.
It is a chainsaw defense if you find a fault with a player that has nothing to do with their case, isn't it?.
2. I had forgotten how good you were at deliberately trying to piss me off. Look at your last post - how much of that is deliberately there to try and make me angry?
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What I'm doing - 'I think case on A is bad, I think B is scummy for suggesting it.'
Chainsaw Defense - 'Oh noes, my scumbuddy A is getting voted! I'd better come up with a reason to attack B!'
Explain the difference, cause I'm pretty sure you are attacking me.
And none of it is to piss you off. Quite frankly I'm sick of you strawmanning the hell out of me. Happy?
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And none of it is to piss you off.
Could've fooled me.
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Explain the difference, cause I'm pretty sure you are attacking me.
I always thought that it was only a chainsaw if you came out of nowhere to attack someone on a totally different tangent.
As for attacking you, note that my vote is still on Chaore. My comment on you was that you were looking too hard into the fact that Kilga posted a freaking joke count. I don't even understand where I'm strawmanning you, seriously.
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Meanwhile, back to my ACTUAL case...Three points.
- Firstly, the odds of a quick-wagon actually occuring this early in the day are pretty much zero. Why so afraid of seeing a wagon reach a decent speed?
- Secondly, what exactly disconcerted you enough about the wagon to convince you to move your vote? You didn't clarify beyond thinking the wagon was 'silly', missing the point that we have to start with a silly case to get to a serious case.
- Thirdly, you did nothing with your vote afterwards. I'll say it a million times if I have to, not using your vote in D1 is terrible Town play.
1. Okay, so being afraid of a wagon going at a decent pace is scummy. Scum wants lynches, you know that, right Rou? Unless you'd like to claim Alice is Scum as well (For reasons other than a circular damn logicfest), Scum has no reason to panic over a wagon.
2. It was started off of his own god damn self vote and I am not fly with a lynch happening over that. If you are, I'm not. Sorry Rou.
3. Yeah I'm pretty terrible at this. I'm not about to lie about that.
I'm not seeing anything that makes me scum here, Rou. I'm just seeing you making criticisms on my play. In which you're pretty right on, I'm doing pretty terrible.
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As for attacking you, note that my vote is still on Chaore. My comment on you was that you were looking too hard into the fact that Kilga posted a freaking joke count. I don't even understand where I'm strawmanning you, seriously.
What I'm doing - 'I think case on A is bad, I think B is scummy for suggesting it.'
:V
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##Unvote
That's enough of that. Self-votes are really kind of a dumb thing to pull in general, but given how early it is in the RVs, I thought I'd try one out of curiosity just to see if I could catch one of the new players on it, and I'm going to have to certainly go over Chaore's reaction carefully, as something unsettles me about it a lot. Furienify looks mildly bad for a generic wagon hop, but, meh, early RVS, so I'm not putting much stake in that.
@UK: you're voting Kilga over him being helpful? Seriously? Especially given how like 17 hours passed with no votecount so far? Christ, of all the reasons to vote someone...is this even a random vote? It feels like a random vote but the way you are pushing it makes me think you are 4srs, which makes me sad as this is seriously even more baffling than your reasoning for Scum!Alex back in Himelander, and that make me seriously wonder if I had stepped into the Twilight Mafia Zone for a couple hours or so. What the shit.
...And then the game degenerates into a UK/Roukan shouting match.
Can we please stop this, now, before it gets out of hand, spans several pages, and generally fills up the page with unnecessary chaff while pissing everyone in the game off in the process? Seriously. UK, you said you were going to work on the Unlimited Raeg Works. So kindly do so.
@Chaore: why would you be unhappy about a wagon starting off with my self-vote going to a lynch? I mean self-voting is an inherently anti-town action (though not always Scummy), not to mention the blindingly obvious case of I was nowhere close to a hammer at the time, for that matter. Holy shit.
At the same time, I'm not getting anything Scummy out of UK so far, just a pile of extreme idiocy, and Chaore seems to be playing more DerpTown than DerpScum so far. Currently going to ##Vote: Furienify, because quite honestly, while somewhat weak, your only post D1 so far is a wagon hop onto a wagon started by a self-vote. More content needed, etc.
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EBWOP: Missed Zak's cheerleading of multiple cases while having his vote on huh what. At the same time, I agree with his opinion of said cases (i.e. all of the wagons are on Idiot Town thusfar), but I still can't get over the fact that his posting style feels less like telling Town to disregard all of these wagons and more like awkward cheerleading. Perhaps it's the lack of a solid alternate case. Zakeri, why are you voting HW anyway?
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Mainly it was 1 and 3 I found fault with, but you actually raise a decent enough point about 1. It's your lack of contribution to other discussion and subsequent OMGUS that I'm least comfortable with.
UK: Scummy, but as you may have noticed from my lack of vote not scummy enough on its own to be worth lynching. Worth looking at in later days, but there's plenty out there that is worth my vote ahead of that.
Like, say, Zak for his 'every single case presented today is stupid so I'm going to hold to my jokevote while idly commenting about discussion' attitude which does absolutely nothing. Chaore has explained himself to enough of an extent that I'm willing to make the shift.
##Unvote: Chaore
Vote: Zakeri
I don't know how, but playing here constantly manages to make me feel physically ill. I'm more than happy to leave this argument with UK in the dust to discuss other cases. Zak, feel like contributing anything other than calling people stupid?
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Can we please stop this, now, before it gets out of hand, spans several pages, and generally fills up the page with unnecessary chaff while pissing everyone in the game off in the process? Seriously. UK, you said you were going to work on the Unlimited Raeg Works. So kindly do so.
Actually, this was fairly civilized I think. It's just that we got a little long in tooth.
In fact, your post was probably far ruder than anything I exchanged with Rou. But that's ok, because you're Alice and allowed to say whatever the hell you want.
At any rate, I disagree that the case on Kilga boils down to him "being helpful", but apparently people are going to take it that way so whatever. Page me when Kilga is lynched and flips scum.
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Oh man I sleep/go to school and it turns out that from the moment I left, suddenly things started going past jokevotes.
First off, ##Unvote:UncertainKitten. Second, ##Vote:Zakeri for the reasons Rou said. Third, reread the topic and think really really hard about this as I try to obtain a Mafia Player mindset. This requires more thinking then I originally thought; how fun this game is starting to look~
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HoS: Serela
That's twice. Quit trying to excuse yourself for lack of content or not being able to do anything before you've even played.
It looks bad.
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You only get one vote. Pick one of your two options (and if it's UK, explain why).
Also please don't cite Roukan's reasoning for voting Zakeri, not only because bandwagoning is bad but because Roukan accuses Zakeri of holding on to a joke vote when Zakeri's vote is actually serious.
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honk honk
Zakeri (4): huh what, Kilgamayan. Roukanken, Serela
Kilgamayan (1): UncertainKitten
Alice Margatroid (2): Carthrat, Furienify
Chaore (2): Kitten4u, Roukanken
huh what (1): Zakeri
Furienify (1): Alice Margatroid
Roukanken (1): Chaore
No vote: Kefit, Zentillion
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Roukan accuses Zakeri of holding on to a joke vote when Zakeri's vote is actually serious.
Let me clarify this: huh what asks Neo for clarification of a joke vote and is apparently 'backtracking' he says later he's being sarcastic.
The first question is why is that not blatantly obvious? The whole point of joke votes is that they're random and inexplainable.
The second question is why does Zak find that more valuable than ANYTHING ELSE THAT HAS CROPPED UP SO FAR? I honestly see no real case behind his vote.
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Good grief, that post was a joke. I didn't bold the vote for a reason! I'm not that new at this.
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HoS: Serela
That's twice. Quit trying to excuse yourself for lack of content or not being able to do anything before you've even played.
It looks bad.
I was serious when I said I was going to reread the thread to try to understand things more. I just wanted to remove the vote on you because it was ridiculous at this point. I'm not trying to excuse myself at all; I'm simply a bit overwhelmed at this point, because I'm not used to the game at all. Heck, I've got no idea what FoS/HoS means in the first place, although I assume it's some kind of warning.
One was Unvote, the other was Vote; I wasn't voting twice. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg317976#msg317976) As for the criticism on my vote, it made sense at the moment, and after going through the thread, I've decided to stick to it for now.
Now, after reading through, the first thing that comes to mind is "Kilga+Zakeri are scum, Kilga is protecting him, etc", although I'm probably just being stupid right now. Scratch that, I' almost surely being stupid, because Zakeri voted Kilga right off the bat. Although I suppose since it's just a joke vote, it could be a trick, but I should pretty much nix the whole thought. Besides, Kilga decided to be a nice helpful person and post vote counts; although being nice doesn't really have anything to do with whether you're scum or not.
However, this doesn't throw out the idea that Zakeri is scum. His vote was a joke vote (was it not? It certainly seemed so.) and yet has been stuck to no matter how baseless it seems to be. In fact, beyond "everyone is an idiot" (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg317782#msg317782), I haven't see Zakeri really give any reasons.
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At the same time, I'm not getting anything Scummy out of UK so far, just a pile of extreme idiocy, and Chaore seems to be playing more DerpTown than DerpScum so far. Currently going to ##Vote: Furienify, because quite honestly, while somewhat weak, your only post D1 so far is a wagon hop onto a wagon started by a self-vote. More content needed, etc.
My above post was responding mostly to this in particular (and Zakeri's post calling me an idiot as well, w/e): was a joke vote again (probably should have been more explicit on that), and what other sort of content shall I post? Past two pages have been full of UK raging against Kilga and failing miserably because Kilga's just taking it stride, making UK look like he's failing at generic ragetrolling. As everyone else has pointed out. I don't think that's a scum or townie vibe, from my brief experience reading some of the mafia threads here you guys tend to get very aggro, very quickly. That isn't my accustomed style, all of my past mafia games have been pretty laid-back, albeit very power-intensive as well, so we could afford to do that.
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FoS: Finger of Suspicion
HoS: Hand of Suspicion
Vote: Is a vo-
/me is shot
Anyway, I just realized that I'm totally going to be scarce tonight and for much of tomorrow. I'll be home around 6:30/7 PM EST tomorrow but yeah...I MIGHT get on to make a post or two.
And, for the last time, I'm not raging. If I were raging, there would be a lot more profanity and such.
Interesting that you'd class a case, regardless of it's weakness, as "raging". Trying to pre emptively discredit people?
And I'm not a he, but whatever, you clearly are new here.
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One was Unvote, the other was Vote; I wasn't voting twice. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg317976#msg317976)
Derp, sorry, I need new eyes or something. :V
Out of curiosity, though, why did you throw out a Kilga/Zakeri scumpair on the basis of Zakeri's joke vote for me and not the fact that my serious vote is on him?
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Out of curiosity, though, why did you throw out a Kilga/Zakeri scumpair on the basis of Zakeri's joke vote for me and not the fact that my serious vote is on him?
Because I, too, obviously need new eyes :derp:
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FoS: Finger of Suspicion
HoS: Hand of Suspicion
Vote: Is a vo-
/me is shot
Anyway, I just realized that I'm totally going to be scarce tonight and for much of tomorrow. I'll be home around 6:30/7 PM EST tomorrow but yeah...I MIGHT get on to make a post or two.
And, for the last time, I'm not raging. If I were raging, there would be a lot more profanity and such.
Interesting that you'd class a case, regardless of it's weakness, as "raging". Trying to pre emptively discredit people?
And I'm not a he, but whatever, you clearly are new here.
Oh, I'd forgotten you were female, my bad. Internet strikes again.
In retrospect raging may be the wrong word, 'hostile' is definitely more appropriate.
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Yanno what, I'm rereading Furien's post and it looks worse without rushing through it to get a post out since it was a ninja.
Seriously, ##Unvote, Vote Furienfly
Reasons:
Excusing lack of content because supposedly there's nothing to go off of.
Discrediting cases, no matter how weak, as "generic ragetrolling" when there really wasn't a whole lot of rage involved
The fact that all posts thus far have been self admitted "jokes"
Excusing future possible scumminess by saying he's used to a different play style
Wall of text that basically outlines all the above excuses and discreditation without producing any content.
Ninja: I wouldn't even buy hostile, since I think I was rather cordial, if a bit rough with how I accused Kilga.
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##Unvote, ##Vote: NeoSerela
Pretty much bandwagoning. No actual look at what the hell is going on with the case, just tossed a glance at the vote count and Rou's new vote and said 'ROU HAS TOUCHED MY HEART AND I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!' to pass down his vote. Then when questioned for something more substantial he provides exactly what he did before. What Rou is going at Zak for and Kilga -just told him-. Its more of a nod when he hasn't even really followed the game to actually NOD for a case.
There is a difference between dumbtown agreeing with a case blindly and dumbscum just tossing a vote for the sake of getting a vote down on a lynch. Namely, one requires actually reading the case and thread, while the other requires a look at a vote count.
@Alice: I can not see a lynch from a self-vote being a good lynch no matter how anti-town you say it is. In fact, isn't it typically anti-town for the exact reason that it pushes the person to lynch? The idea that we'd magically catch scum because they voted themselves is so obscenely stupid it makes my eyes -cross-. This is why I am not chill with that idea.
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"Burden of Proof Fallacy" Is basically when people just go back and forth going "You have to provide evidence" "Nu-uh! You provide evidence!" It's a term I may or may not have made up on the spot. It serves no purpose other than to make everyone involved look lazy since the entire point of debating during the game is to provide evidence.
Remember, science isn't about being right, it's about becoming right.
Whoa, back up a second.
I'm scum because after disagreeing with the idea of putting my vote on the current bandwagons, I leave it on a person who's not on being bandwagoned?
I don't like how Alice threw around the cheerleading charge in post 75. Isn't that only for when Scum tries to support random bandwagons without throwing their vote for the cause? I've never encouraged a lynch that didn't currently have my vote on it so far.
I'm really looking down on Roukanken's play so far this day one. His vote on Chaore was for a dumbtell (Scum is not more likely to forget to revote on day one than Town are), And the argument against UK doesn't do anything except waste a page and possibly net brownie points with/for Kilgamayan.
##Unvote: huh what
##Vote: Roukanken
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Wow, 4 pages already? Gonna comment as I read along I guess.
Zakeri, care to add something other than snarking at the bandwagons you think are stupid? You also apprently think that all these bandwagons with minor reasoning are worse than a random vote with no meaning at all?
Chaore's Alice unvote then not voting anybody else afterwards strikes me as kinda odd. It doesn't actually seem bad but it seems rather off. If he isn't for silly things, why jokevote in the first place? Also his OMGUS on Rou is really derpy. Getting bad vibes from him so far.
Neo, what are you even doing? At least obtain that mindset before posting. Also saying "lol I'll vote Zak because of what he said" isn't the best bandwagon jump. Plus, isn't it a bit early to be guessing scumpairs?
Furien, just because it's not bold doesn't mean it doesn't count. But whatever. Don't really agree with UK's vote on him, it seems like he's playing badly, not scummy. Don't really think "Oh I'm new" as an excuse makes somebody seems scummy even if it is stupid. It is kind of irritating considering that Furien said he's played mafia before, though. Would like to see more content from him before actually pinning him as scummy.
New Zak post: That's nice. Anything else to add on, you know, the recent events?
Where are Zentillion and Kefit? No post from either so far. I don't think K4U has posted since RVS either.
Content with my vote on Zak because ROU HAS TOUCHED MY HEART AND I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT. Seriously, though, at the moment he has still failed to actually contribute to the discussion beyond being snarky and explaining a term he "may or may not have made up on the spot". Would like to see more for him. Don't feel that bad about anybody else except Chaore, but I'm going to keep my eye on Furien in the future.
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Neo, what are you even doing? At least obtain that mindset before posting. Also saying "lol I'll vote Zak because of what he said" isn't the best bandwagon jump. Plus, isn't it a bit early to be guessing scumpairs?
Trying and doing incredibly terribly, apparently. I was planning on going "after rereading through everything I changed my mind", but unfortunately, after doing so I realized that I really did want to keep my vote. I spent awhile afterwards reading specific bits of data to come up with reasons of my own, but apparently I ended up mimicking what other people already said in the process.
As for the scumpair thing, I probably should have erased it from my post-in-progress. It was pretty much just vomiting words onto the typing screen to bounce ideas off myself, and I even went "this idea is terrible and I'll just forget it" in the paragraph. It wasn't much of a serious speculation in the first place.
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Hey, wait a minute. Why is Furien still voting Alice? This makes him seem somewhat worse to me.
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That's nice. Anything else to add on, you know, the recent events?
Nothing that doesn't amount to "These people are goodposting!" and "Those are new bandwagons" Which I felt were both useless to add.
Actually Furien claims in 83 that he didn't mean to vote, likely in responce to Edible's votecount including it despite not being bolded.
Which then means He's never voted once all game!
So, Rou, you've voted Chaore for unvoting and Me for keeping a joke vote. How's it feel to completely miss this? :/
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The case on voting Zak so far is 'he called us names and didn't do anything else', not especially scummy early d1. Since he just tossed out a vote on Rou he can hardly be said to not be commenting on recent events, like huhwhat just suggested.
Hey, hey UK, you were totally trying to provoke Rou
Read the rest of my statement Rou? And stop strawmanning? You've made enough hay to feed a horse for a year.
I'd like you to start actually addressing existing arguments rather than trying to bullshit your way through. Thanks ^-^.
This was in response to basically a request for additional clarification. you lose nothing by being polite and telling him concisely why the 'burden of proof' returned to him, even if you have to do it twice. Also you meta'd to vote on kilga by saying he's not acting like Kilga early. fffff ##Vote: UK
DAY ONE STRONG
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GRR ##Unvote, ##Vote: UK
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Since he just tossed out a vote on Rou he can hardly be said to not be commenting on recent events, like huhwhat just suggested.
The quotes tags are broken. I thought he did that a while ago and was quoting it now in response to the complaints. (I only realized he never posted it after I made my post)
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As in, the quote tags breaking made me think he was quoting an earlier post by himself.
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I DIDN'T FORGET. :V
As this is the first day, and there is mainly nothing to go on, my vote was decided via dieroll on AIM.
##Vote: Kitten4U
Don't blame me, blame AIM, K4U.
I'll start voting via observations and such on Day 2, as first days are usually crapshoots anyway, right? :V
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Actually Furien claims in 83 that he didn't mean to vote, likely in responce to Edible's votecount including it despite not being bolded.
Which then means He's never voted once all game!
This! Thank you. I'd vote UK for trying to crucify me so quickly, but that would be a bit of an OMGUS, so ##FoS: UK at the very least.
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Zentillion: You do realize we're way out of the RVS now, right?
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Guess who fell asleep earlier? :V Anyway, first stuff:
I don't think K4U has posted since RVS either.
Considering what happened last game it's probably not all bad that I haven't said anything worth while until now. I actually have info and I can do something more useful than random gut vote.
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Second newbies:
None of the newbies are looking great. Neo has a couple of shifty bandwagon hops and seems to really like playing the newbie card. Furi has like done nothing at all yet and I (personally) think that there is enough stuff happen for him to say SOMETHING useful. Same goes for Zen. HOWEVER, I'm not willing to declare any of them scum yet. They both get newbie leniency from me, but they both really, really need to start producing. Neo's already answered this, so I'll ask Furi and Zen. Who is scum?
I'll start voting via observations and such on Day 2, as first days are usually crapshoots anyway, right?
No, this is not acceptable. We have lynched scum on D1 several times before. Post your observations now please.
I think UK looks worse than Rou from that back and forth, though the whole thing was pretty terrible. Only good that came from it was UK explaining that the Kilga vote was mostly gut so I can at least stop looking at the Kilga "case" weirdly. I'm not getting where people are getting "scum-vibes" from Kilga.
I dislike that Zak was all "let's bandwagon people!" without doing anything himself. I agree with Alice's cheerleading charge, though in this case the cheerleading isn't so much "I like this lynch better but guy B is very suspicious and he should consider my vote to be on him too!" as it is "cool, bandwagons. Let's wait and see what happens with them." Recent content is making feel a little better, but I'm still wary of him.
Chaore I do think is probable scum. I don't so much mind that he took his vote off without revoting for someone else (it's useless, but I'm not convinced it's scummy, Kitten4u needs more data), but his reactions after were really bad. His vote for Rou was basically OMGUS while putting words in Rou's mouth (at least, it didn't sound like that's what Rou was saying at all imo), which is just terrible.
Happy with my vote for now.
Sorry for wall etc.
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##Unvote
After noticing the mistake I made reading the quote box and mulling it over a bit, Zak seems a lot better to me. Will keep my eye on him in the future incase he reverts to snarking again, but he seems good at the moment.
##Vote UncertainKitten
I?m not buying her claim that there was no malicious intent in her? discussion with Rou. This especially shows in #65, which feels like she?s trying to provoke him into raging or continuing arguing with her, which would distract one townie (if Rou is town) and causing more pointless arguing to fill up the page as a distraction. Aside from that her vote on Kilga is ridiculous. Posting a votecount on its own should not be a tell for town or scum, since it?s helpful to both sides to some extent. The only reason I could see that would make him look bad for that is if he had posted no content aside from the votecount and was using it to active lurk, which he wasn?t. The rest of her case seems to be based on gut and meta, and if it isn?t she didn?t explain herself very well. The whole thing feels like a distraction to me. She hasn?t done much else at all other than pick on newbies.
Speaking of picking on newbies, Furien? didn?t unvote <_< I know his vote wasn?t supposed to count, but the mod counted it before so he should at least unvote. Also, why is he FoSing UK over a vote because he thinks his vote would be an OMGUS? That?s arguably worse than making an OMGUS vote since it means he?s not doing anything with his vote at all
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##Unvote: Alice
I was always raised to think OMGUS's were terrible to do outside of joke day-1 situations.
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There's a difference between an OMGUS and a reasonable vote on somebody who happens to have their vote on you. But from what you've been doing so far it doesn't like you've been shooting for the latter at all.
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Furi, I'll ask again. Who is scum and why?
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##Unvote: K4U, 'cause it's time to get super serial!
##Vote: ... Hang on...
Let's see, UK is being pretty danged defensive for someone who insists they're not scum this time around. It also seems, from my observation that she turns out to be scum a lot, so it would seem prerogative to take her out right now if she is scum and deal with the repercussions later if she turned out to be a townie this time. However, I'm also willing to give benefit of the doubt... "today".
Chaore. Someone was being a little overreactive when the fingers started pointing at what was a dumb, misinformed post for initials. Of course, it's quite possible he doesn't enjoy being accused because he IS a townie, and he also presented a nice case that had Rou change his vote, and i'm willing to believe it for the time being.
Zakeri's snarkiness and other things are possible scum behavior and to me seems a little... sacrificial and cheerleadery. But, hey, benefit of the doubt has also been provided. But... not enough of it for me.
Of course, there's also Rou, being so sure of Zak and then changing his vote suddenly - of course, perhaps he actually believes Zak... or he's seesawing in an attempt to make us all believe he's a townie and is actually scum. still, there's enough doubt from me that I can't decide on where he lies.
The others don't seem to have anything that makes me say one way or the other... and of course, there's also myself... but I am not a self-voting type of guy.
Oh, and K4U, since you're being nice and helpful, I can do nothing but trust you. For now...
now, where was I going with this? Ah yes.
##Vote: Zakeri
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Who loves ya?
Zakeri (4): Kilgamayan. Roukanken, Serela, Zentillion
Chaore (2): Kitten4u, Roukanken
huh what (1): Zakeri
Furienify (2): Alice Margatroid, UncertainKitten
Serela (1): Chaore
UncertainKitten (2): Carthrat, huh what
No vote: Kefit
You have around 48 hours or so.
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Let's see, UK is being pretty danged defensive for someone who insists they're not scum this time around. It also seems, from my observation that she turns out to be scum a lot, so it would seem prerogative to take her out right now if she is scum and deal with the repercussions later if she turned out to be a townie this time. However, I'm also willing to give benefit of the doubt... "today".
I may at odds with her this game, but this is terrible logic and fairly straw-grasping.
##Vote: Zentillion
For now, I hope this suffices as an answer for huh what.
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Furi: Um, um, er... well, yes, looking that over, the logic does seem a little wacky there, and perhaps a little discriminatory-via-rep, but this is the first day and a little grasping is what I can go by, at least for the time being. I could have just as easily slammed down she was scum, but I'm not because, well, what if I turn out to be wrong? I do see scumminess, but I also see plenty of towniness. I'm willing to give everyone benefit of the doubt... perhaps i'm just a really nice guy... or I'm scum like you say. But don't vote me off on fallacies... vote me off if you see genuine scummy manipulation.
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Where is the genuine scummy manipulation you see in Zakeri, then?
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Furi: Um, um, er... well, yes, looking that over, the logic does seem a little wacky there, and perhaps a little discriminatory-via-rep, but this is the first day and a little grasping is what I can go by, at least for the time being. I could have just as easily slammed down she was scum, but I'm not because, well, what if I turn out to be wrong? I do see scumminess, but I also see plenty of towniness. I'm willing to give everyone benefit of the doubt... perhaps i'm just a really nice guy... or I'm scum like you say. But don't vote me off on fallacies... vote me off if you see genuine scummy manipulation.
I wish I knew how to multi-quote, but in response to both you and huh what:
I've used this sort of mentality before as a scum. Generally trying to hide in the back; claiming I'm too polite ('nice') to be aggressive and get on people's case. Not willing to stir shit up to get people to potentially slip up. Generally speaking, it helps you avoid slipping up yourself.
The entire post was full of blanket statements in general- well, person X is doing this, and so is Y, while Z is off knitting in the corner. Everything to push attention out from yourself, while playing nanny and essentially giving us a play-by-play. Doing everything to fly under the radar.
(Bed time for now, will post in the morning if I have time.)
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Huh: Well, uh, I meant manipulation from myself, but yes, it should be a two-way street, shouldn't it? I'll think about my vote a little more, got some hours left still... may change, may not. :derp: All I can say right now is, if you have your judgment, trust it if you must, but do remember benefit of the doubt. Right now my mind won't let go of Zakeri.
Furi: Eheh, you posted while I was replying to huh what. Anyway, those are very good reasons for you to label me as scum, and wow, I can't come up with any good defenses other than "make sure you're absolutely sure", and well, you sound sure of very possible scumplay. All I can really do is hope everyone else doesn't turn their votes towards me. Which could be likely. :ohdear:
...Lordy, I'm doing terribly in my first mafia here, whatever role I really am. Ah well, this is about being entertained. And I am.
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Case on UK is largely uninteresting, UK tends to think she's a proper judge of her own actions in a Mafia game regardless of her alignment. Not a scumtell, just a playstyle flaw that needs to be fixed.
Cases on newbies are mostly uninteresting, they're newbies making newbie mistakes gasp shock awe. I could maybe buy into a Zentillion case because lolbandwagon but his bigpost looks like he's actually trying even if he got some factual stuff wrong in the UK section so eh. I...guess I'm willing to vote him, but I don't feel great about it.
Want clarification from K4U regarding "I'm not getting where people are getting "scum-vibes" from Kilga" because I'm pretty sure UK was the only one that thought me scummy. Feeling kinda weird about her post on the whole; the Chaore section is decent but the rest of it...man I don't know. Looks like indecision + rehash + comments on newbies designed to make her look better rather than actually accomplish anything. Willing to vote her.
Happy with Zakvote, he hasn't really done anything to make me want to move it yet. Case on Roukan is unimpressive even for a Day 1 Case, though detailed defense should come from Roukan himself.
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Changed my mind on Zentillion, not really willing to vote him anymore based solely on what he's brought to the table so far. I'm having a hard time seeing why he's more likely to do what he's done as newbscum than newbtown.
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OK OK OK OK so.
UK goes for the easy target in one of the new guys. Chaore then proceeds to vote ANOTHER new player. Except really they're all saying stuff that's just newbtells, not scumtells, so yeah.
Whoa, back up a second.
I'm scum because after disagreeing with the idea of putting my vote on the current bandwagons, I leave it on a person who's not on being bandwagoned?
More like 'you disregarded the cases that were out in the open, stuck to a vote with more or less no valid reasoning (why was huh what any less of an idiot than the players you called out in #48? As in, about half the players?) and basically goaded people to jump on the other wagons'.
And another OMGUS. Yeah, not impressed.
So, Rou, you've voted Chaore for unvoting and Me for keeping a joke vote. How's it feel to completely miss this?
Because it's clear Furienify has no idea what he's doing? You've been playing here for years, literally.
Also, stop play gotcha games with me. Happy with my vote.
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ZENTILION POWER
For a moment I'm going to ape UK's famous Postlength Extension Methodology and quote a lot, since examples help this time!
Let's see, UK is being pretty danged defensive for someone who insists they're not scum this time around. It also seems, from my observation that she turns out to be scum a lot, so it would seem prerogative to take her out right now if she is scum and deal with the repercussions later if she turned out to be a townie this time. However, I'm also willing to give benefit of the doubt... "today".
Super bad! We lynch people for scumminess! Not because they're... scum often...? 'take her out right now if she's scum, deal with it if she's townie later' is pretty logically bad. Also at the end of this post there is a ZENTILION SPECIAL where he lets her off the hook, undoing his previous accusations!
Chaore. Someone was being a little overreactive when the fingers started pointing at what was a dumb, misinformed post for initials. Of course, it's quite possible he doesn't enjoy being accused because he IS a townie, and he also presented a nice case that had Rou change his vote, and i'm willing to believe it for the time being.
ZENTILION SPECIAL
Of course, there's also Rou, being so sure of Zak and then changing his vote suddenly - of course, perhaps he actually believes Zak... or he's seesawing in an attempt to make us all believe he's a townie and is actually scum. still, there's enough doubt from me that I can't decide on where he lies.
ZENTILION SPECIAL
That's a lot of flipflopping, ZENTILION. How do you explain this, ZENTILION? I am very suspicious, ZENTILION! There is a big pointing finger of suspicion pointing at you, ZENTILION!
Kilga, this kind of flipflopping is not a neutral newbie tell! This is of GENUINE BADNESS!!!! because flipflopping around on cases gives an out to both ways and helps to pad out your posts and there's no reason to include second-guessing yourself. also he's not lynching based on scumminess, this can be shown by his rationale for not voting UK. 'benefit of the doubt', ok. so. why don't you give Zakeri that same benefit? It's a catch-all thing that seems to let him not lynch someone for free.
##Unvote, ##Vote: ZENTILION also zak bandwagon.
(sorry about that. Zentilion is a cool name though. Go on, say it out loud.)
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Neener neener neener.
Zakeri (4): Kilgamayan. Roukanken, Serela, Zentillion
Chaore (1): Kitten4u
huh what (1): Zakeri
Furienify (2): Alice Margatroid, UncertainKitten
Serela (1): Chaore
UncertainKitten (1): huh what
Zentillion (2): Furienify, Carthrat
No vote: Kefit
Kefit has been prodded.
Edit: Due to real life circumstances, Zakeri may be unable to continue this game. We will see what happens and if he needs replacement.
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A Quick clearification on the cheerleading charge: When I said "I wonder who's going to jump on these bandwagons" I was waiting for someone who was scummy to jump on, rather than just targeting the first person to fall for it and calling them scum.
I've expressed my distaste for the bandwagons, so I don't know what it is people are trying to dig out of my saying that to make me seem scummy.
also, What Edible Said.
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A Quick clearification on the cheerleading charge: When I said "I wonder who's going to jump on these bandwagons" I was waiting for someone who was scummy to jump on, rather than just targeting the first person to fall for it and calling them scum.
Explain, then, why you thought the point you made against huh what was more valuable than any of the other cases that emerged. I can't understand why you dumped the other cases as pointless and you dropped instead a vote on HW for not making it clear that he was being sarcastic during the RVS.
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Rat, are you really trying to tell me you read that post and concluded that Zentilion is some GENIUS CRIMINAL MASTERMIND that has intentionally set himself up to jump on whatever case he needs to? All I see is a newbie trying to flounder through Day 1 like basically every newbie ever had to flounder through their first Day 1. Of course he's going to be indecisive on a bunch of stuff, he's a newbie and it's Day 1.
Besides, do you really see that UK assessment coming from someone that has buddies to talk to? Especially with how factually incorrect it is?
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Edible, that votecount is messed up.
Apparently Rou is voting two people, and Zak is still voting me even though he switched to Rou (I think?)
[edible]My bad on Rou, but Zak's vote is correct.[/edible]
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Well, We've got three people open for free bandwagoning, now. Let's see which one everyone piles onto.
This post bugs me. A lot. Zak claims here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318645#msg318645) that this wasn't an encouragement of bandwagons, but rather a trap laid out for anyone who happened to be scummy. That seems tenuous to me. It's more likely that this post was either a complete throwaway, or an attempt to get some dumb town to jump on a wagon so that Zak would then have someone to finger point at. Things get worse a bit later:
You've been playing Mafia along with the rest of us. Given a reason and half a chance, you could answer the question. :P
That's not how you solve a Burden of Proof Falacy, Rou. It gives UK the chance to explain what she's talking about using postlinks, and it just makes Her look more town and you look lazy.
Also, In ten words or more, explain why your vote is on Chaore at this point in time, Rou.
First, Zak introduces chaff to into the game by talking about a fallacy that he later admits to making up (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318134#msg318134). Reminds me of Pesco's nonsensical, made up vote types in the Haruhi game we just played. Worse yet, instead of providing any analysis of his own, Zak just demands that another play explain himself. It's like he's trying to avoid having to post anything meaningful while at the same time demanding the keen insight of others. Why would he do that I wonder? Maybe because he finds it too hard to fabricate his own cases when he already knows the truth. Hell, if Rou's explanation is good enough then maybe Zak wlil have a case that he can reasonably jump on.
I've never liked bandwagons, but I'm comfortable with putting Zak at L-2. ##Vote Zak
I also want to briefly mention that I'm feeling a bit of an odd vibe from Kilga. But instead of being like UK, I'll go ahead and justify it. After the end of Haruhi Mafia, I chatted with Kilga a bit about the thought processes that led to his correct calling of the three scum immediately after his death. One thing he told me was that he was pretty sure that Bard and Edible weren't scum because they got into a d1 catfight - something that scum almost never do. In the game we are playing now, Rou and UK started slapping each other around pretty early on. What I find odd is that Kilga tried to stick his head in, just a little bit, here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg317846#msg317846) and here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg317934#msg317934). It's like he wanted to make sure that he had a minor presence in these scuffles, while at the same time avoiding having to actually commit to participating in them. In other words, it's like he's attempting to participate in townie shenanigans while at the same time avoiding the possibility that he might slip-up in his act. This probably isn't vote worthy, especially compared to my Zak case, but it does make me raise an eyebrow.
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The scuffle was an argument about him, so uh, wasn't he kind of obligated to post in it (or at least respond to UK's vote on him)? Or am I not understanding you right?
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Want clarification from K4U regarding "I'm not getting where people are getting "scum-vibes" from Kilga" because I'm pretty sure UK was the only one that thought me scummy.
It was me just saying that I didn't understand why UK found you scummy because you haven't done anything suspicious imo. I used "people" because Neo brought up Kilga!scum as well, but it was probably the wrong word to use. Considering I was half-asleep when I wrote that and I used "both" to refer to a group of three people I'm not surprised I used an awkward word.
On the rehash point, to be fair to me I had missed four pages on stuff. It's only natural that I would repeat some stuff. But I wanted to make sure my opinions were out there even if I did have to repeat some things.
I'm not sure where you're getting indicision from, but I'll go ahead and try to explain stuff. I'm against newbie wagons; I think it's unlikely that they'll flip scum. While I was reading for a while my reads where Chaore = Zak in terms of scumminess, but some of Zak's more recent posts (and Chaore's as well) made it Chaore > Zak which is >>> UK. I wouldn't oppose any of those lynches, but Chaore is still my preferd lynch.
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Other assorted comments:
Not impressed with Zak's explanation for that one post. I don't think I'm really understanding Kefit's Kilga comment. I feel about the same way as HW. Not happy with the people jumping on newbie wagons, I'm betting there's scum on them. I still like my Chaore vote, but I'm willing to switch to Zak.
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I may at odds with her this game, but this is terrible logic and fairly straw-grasping.
##Vote: Zentillion
Voting a newbie for terrible logic, and on D1? Come on, I'm sure you can find a better case on someone else then something like that. Afterwards you made a post saying you've previously used such a scum playstyle such as Zentillion seemed to be using in your example, which backs up your vote, but I'd say it's more likely just newbie floundering on D1.
Keeping an eye on Furienify, but not really super suspicious either, since Because it's clear Furienify has no idea what he's doing?
Now, to move on to Zakeri. He's saying a lot how he dislikes bandwagons, which is something scum would like, so it's a statement that would make you seem town. However, this also means it could be a ploy to disguise yourself as town. Why jump on bandwagons and seem scummy if you can just completely avoid them yourself? Let's not forget the encouragement for others to bandwagon (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg317748#msg317748), which in my eyes, is just as likely to be a scumtrap as it is to be a scumplot.
Or, better yet, make a case on someone completely unvoted so far, so that either A.You'll create a new bandwagon, or B.If that fails, hopefully you'll at least not be payed much attention to, in the event of a non-convincing case. Which brings back up Zakeri's vote. His reasons for voting Rou were pretty much "Voted Chaore for not voting" and "He argued". Rou's reason for voting Chaore may not have been based off much, but this was back in early D1 when there was nothing to go off of in the first place. I can see how the action seems slightly scummy of Chaore, but I also think it's not really much of anything at all, so I don't see how Rou voting Chaore for that suddenly makes him worthy of being accused for scumminess himself.
...Lordy, I'm doing terribly in my first mafia here, whatever role I really am.
/me brofists Zentillion
Gotta start somewhere, and we'll surely get better with practice~
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@Kilga: I... don't think I was implying that Zentilion was in any way some brilliant mastermind? Where do you get this :|
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Explain, then, why you thought the point you made against huh what was more valuable than any of the other cases that emerged. I can't understand why you dumped the other cases as pointless and you dropped instead a vote on HW for not making it clear that he was being sarcastic during the RVS.
You know, I'm really getting sick and tired of you asking this question.
Who should I have voted for then? Let's say my vote in on X. Let's say Cases are made on W, Y, and Z. I disagree with the cases on W, Y, and Z, even though the case on X isn't any stronger. In this Scenario, Who should I vote for?
I had no reason to join or disturb the bangwagons back then, since I thought they were all wrong, yet would provide information if they continued. I didn't have to reason to stay on huh what, but I also didn't have a reason to move from him. If I did have some huge magical better than day one reason to stay, I would have provided it. I make absolutely no claims to be a magical mafia diviner, and I won't make this claim in the future unless huh what also turned out to be scum in this case.
@Edible: Huh? What?
Oh I see, it's because it was stuffed into my quotefail on accident.
##Unvote: Huh what
##Vote: Roukanken
Maybe because he finds it too hard to fabricate his own cases when he already knows the truth.
Why would I believe this after what I did to Neitz last game? I was town, granted, but it was pretty solid for a day one, town based case. I agree that I need to pay more attention to what's happening now that some time has passed.
Also, it may not be an actual fallacy, but that doesn't mean it doesn't apply to the situation.
I Don't see the case on Chaore at all. His response to Rou's vote on him seems naturally to me, if a bit sudden with the OMGUS. His explanations in 60 and 72 are satisfying to the end of explaining why he unvoted, and I can't find where he "put words in Rou's mouth" like K4u stated in her 104.
Carth Votes Zentillion for Waffles. Yay Waffles! *See avatar*.
I'm not entirely behind lynching Zen Master, but It's a very good vote to make early in the day, since this teaches him to be more decisive on who's scum and who's not. It's always better to be absolutely wrong than "sort of, maybe" correct.
Kilga's "Brilliant Mastermind" comment seems like he's trying to fling Carth's vote in the mud, however. This doesn't make me feel good about Either Kilga or Zen.
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This is why I should wake up early, instead of 2 in the morning.
Still not a fan of the Zak wagon. Kefit is about the only mildly convincing person on the entire wagon. Rou is basically not getting what it means to not like current cases, and Kilga hasn't really pressed anything. Neo and Zent are bandwagoners. Not happy with this, but it is kind of a day 1 wagon.
Zentillion I'm willing to toss a bit of leniency on, if just because bandwagoning occured after trying to read the game instead of before even BOTHERING to read the game. This is why I'm still on Neo, and not tossing him free leniency for being new.
As such. Fine with my vote where it is.
Carth seems to be acting somewhat oddly, but I'm not about to say scummily. Only thing noteworthy about K4U from first glance is a minor bout of Deja Vu from the posts. Huhwhat votes UK for the spat, which isn't exactly strong but not really something I can blame him for.
@Ninja Neo:
Misrep. Also waving your newbie card like a god damn flag. Stop reminding us about it.
...
How long did I spend typing this out? 2 hours? Jesus I need to stop thinking like I'm writing an essay.
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Zentillion I'm willing to toss a bit of leniency on, if just because bandwagoning occured after trying to read the game instead of before even BOTHERING to read the game. This is why I'm still on Neo, and not tossing him free leniency for being new.
I spend an hour making a post and STILL all I get is "God he isn't even reading the goddamn game" >_>_
@Ninja Neo:
Misrep. Also waving your newbie card like a god damn flag. Stop reminding us about it.
In my first paragraph I wasn't talking about myself at ALL. I was talking about Zentillion. The only time I mentioned that I was a newbie was at the end when I just included one sentence to Zentillion and that's it. I'm not trying to remind anyone that I'm new, and I'm really putting effort into doing this, okay? Get off my back about it >_>;
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Who should I have voted for then? Let's say my vote in on X. Let's say Cases are made on W, Y, and Z. I disagree with the cases on W, Y, and Z, even though the case on X isn't any stronger. In this Scenario, Who should I vote for?
Except you didn't initially say 'I disagree with the cases on W, Y and Z'. You said 'Ooh, I wonder if someone's going to jump on W, Y or Z!'. Furthermore, you said here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318645#msg318645) you were waiting for someone scummy to jump on, but at the same time jumping on didn't imply they were scum. Where did you intend to put your vote?
I had no reason to join or disturb the bangwagons back then, since I thought they were all wrong, yet would provide information if they continued. I didn't have to reason to stay on huh what, but I also didn't have a reason to move from him.
'Voting on these wagons is useful and produces discussion. That's why I didn't do it, avoided discussion entirely, called everyone stupid and didn't even try to form an opinion'.
I'm sorry, but when things get serious you do NOT hold to a joke and wait for a 'real' suspect to show up. You go for whoever looks scummiest among the people getting discussed unless you catch someone out for voting scummily, because both of those options promote discussion and information. HOLDING TO WHAT IS EFFECTIVELY A JOKEVOTE CONTRIBUTES NOTHING.
Where'd UK go?
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This! Thank you. I'd vote UK for trying to crucify me so quickly, but that would be a bit of an OMGUS, so ##FoS: UK at the very least.
...why are you at all worried about how it looks? Dear god, this post, how amazingly scummy it is.
I also love how there is no response to my case here. What do you mean "crucify you so quickly"?
Also, Carth, your case on me is about the stupidest thing I've ever seen.
Zent also gains an ##FoS: Zentillion
Oh god, the bullshit brigade starts.
##FoS: HW. Enjoying the winds of change much?
The fact you notice the fact that Furien is doing terrible and IGNORE it makes it so much hilariously worse.
...##HoS: Zent What in the nine hells is this pile of...I...I just don't have an answer for this. The stupid is so INCREDIBLY stupid I just....there are not words (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318402#msg318402)
No, seriously, NOT ONLY does your "UK looks bad" boil down to "She's scum a lot, let's get her out of the way"
You know what? rereading that, that just sounds like scum trying to use BLANTANTLY FALSE STATISTICS to frame a terrible wagon. Not quite though, he doesn't vote me. Which kinda makes it worse in a way since he's waffling like fuck but cheerleading the wagon. ##Unvote, Vote Zent
Yes, I know he's a noob. Yes, I'm aware that apparently noobs have been pinging my scumdar (though that's been...Furien...and Zent now, so actually, even then it hasn't been "me only picking on noobs", it's been quite literally one, and now two terrible looking noobs (on the scum/town axis))
So, ##FoS: Anyone who's blanket stated me to be "picking on noobs
Wow, that's amazing Furien. On the one hand, you're right. On the other, you still haven't done anything of merit this game. Honestly, Zent's post was so terrible I can't rule out bussing (of course I'm assuming I'm right as I always do :P)
.
.
.
This response (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318427#msg318427)
Just...this response. Makes me want to stab myself. Well, I pointed out above why there is scummy manipulation here, but basically...YOU DON'T WANT US TO CALL YOU OUT ON BEING WRONG?
Wow.
...Lordy, I'm doing terribly in my first mafia here, whatever role I really am. Ah well, this is about being entertained. And I am.
DEAR
GOD!
This...this statement, on it's own, just blows my mind with it's scumminess. Just...you aren't even trying to say you are town? The subconscious aversion to lying is just...so ridiculously prevalent in that one sentence...
Kilga's post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318461#msg318461) here bothers me. What do you think of the statement I just quoted with my flabbergastation?
Your next post does not give me warm fuzzies.
@Rou: (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318568#msg318568) So, basically, I'm supposed to ignore actions that benefit scum just because someone's a "new player"...when they've ADMITTED they've played mafia before? Huh? I don't understand this.
I like Carth's Zent post a lot.
Rou's ignoring of Zentillion is noted.
This (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318675#msg318675) Kilga post is reasonable (not necessarily correct, but reasonable) but bugs the FUCK out of me. But I think part of that is just how bad I feel about Zent and this just feels like a defense. I'll want to revisit this later, and even then might not get anything since Zent has a fair chance of going down. I don't see Kilga scumbuddy wanting to be tied to that. So, call this a placeholder to go back to.
Interesting, Kefit. And I tried to justify it, I just couldn't find anything. It's a pure gut read.
Ok, I see a lot of Zakeri talk. I don't remember anything of importance from Zakeri. This is probably an indication he hasn't DONE anything. Is that the basic case on him?
Serela is non commital, but doesn't feel as bad as other people I've called out on it.
Zak's post on another way to take Kilga's post is actually quite nice and might be more what bugged me.
@Rou's latest post: Maybe I just got home after declaring I'd be gone til around now? And now I've been posting a catch up wall dear god I am sorry for this.
##UnFoS: HW
I don't feel he's bending like a willow as much as he was upon further review.
I shall qualify this wall saying that I may have missed a lot of stuff since I was skimming towards the end to get a post out.
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I spend an hour making a post and STILL all I get is "God he isn't even reading the goddamn game" >_>_
Misrep. That wasn't an attack on your entire play style, but a certain even which I'm holding you on.
The only time I mentioned that I was a newbie was at the end when I just included one sentence to Zentillion and that's it. I'm not trying to remind anyone that I'm new, and I'm really putting effort into doing this, okay? Get off my back about it >_>;
The last sentence does nothing but establish 'Hey we're NEW~ We'll improve! Don't mind the mistakes we make!'. I've a bit of an issue with that, and I'm -just- calling you on it in a particularly bad example of it. I am not on your back so much as expressing dislike after seeing it, no need to react so badly.
Ninja Rou: I'd imagine actually holding onto her 'Screw this I'm out of here' post.
Ninja UK: Or right there. God damnit.
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@ UK: In regards to your jab regarding "winds of change" or something like that, my vote on Zakeri was because I felt he was active lurking and not contributing, just snarking about bandwagons. I unvoted because it turned out he actually did try to add something and changed his vote and I didn't notice it because it was in a broken quote tag, not because of changes.
The fact you notice the fact that Furien is doing terrible and IGNORE it makes it so much hilariously worse.
I don't actually feel Furien's actions are scummy. They're bad play, but I don't feel like they come from any specific alignment. His previous lack of vote (aside from the jokevote on Alice) seems kind of odd, though, but that alone doesn't really make him feel like scum imo.
Oh hey, Zent exists. I overlooked his response to me, derp. Am I the only one who feels like his comments on people give off vibes of "oh maybe they're scum maybe they're not benifit of doubt lol" without him actually adding anything of his own? He even said that about himself like multiple times. Actually, he seems to be fond of saying "maybe or maybe not" way too much, considering what he said about his vote. He also completely sidestepped my actual question which is kind of hurrr.
Furi: Eheh, you posted while I was replying to huh what. Anyway, those are very good reasons for you to label me as scum, and wow, I can't come up with any good defenses other than "make sure you're absolutely sure", and well, you sound sure of very possible scumplay. All I can really do is hope everyone else doesn't turn their votes towards me. Which could be likely.
wait what
I have no idea how I missed this earlier, but wow this is terrible. You just said "Yeah I guess your reasons for calling me scum are fine and I can't defend myself, but meh, I just hope I don't get lynched." Did you even READ what you were saying? For that matter, your constant "oh i could be town but maybe i'm not" that you have going on in like every one of your posts makes no sense. You KNOW your alignment, and that feels like you're taking advantage of how town doesn't in an attempt to confuse everyone. Except that it doesn't work, because we know you know your alignment. Saying "I'm town" is one thing, but when you're going to imply that you only might be town it comes off as if you're scum trying to discourage town from lynching you on the grounds that we don't know if we'll be mislynching.
##Unvote
##Vote Zentillion
Still not feeling very good about UK (@ Kilga: I could understand her playstyle being an excuse for the argument itself, but still, are her obvious attempts at provoking Rou really necessary?), but this is ridiculous.
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@HW: Winds of change as in you had a rather respected townie attacking me and the Zak wagon losing steam. But, you haven't taken other changes (til now), so it's not as accurate.
...Oh God...that entire post just reinforces my swaying with the wind read. I still think Zent is a good lynch but ##FoS: HW
I should pay attention to the next votecount to confirm some things.
And, once again, I wasn't TRYING to provoke Rou. But whatever, you clearly aren't listening because you have your magical sparkly version of events. Hope you start playing the actual game soon. You know, outside of parroting what everyone else said ^-^.
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In what way was it losing steam? Zak had the most votes at the time, and between my post saying "Yeah I'm content with my vote on Zak" and the post where I changed my vote, the only posts related to the Zak wagon that weren't by me were Carthrat pointing out that Zak voted Rou really recently (which is how I realized my mistake with the quote tags) and K4U saying she didn't like Zak so far. I don't see any steam lost at all.
And, once again, I wasn't TRYING to provoke Rou.
Your posts do not come off that way at all.
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Also I don't see how I'm parroting, if somebody actually said everything about Zent that I said already I missed it
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It's not strictly parroting, but you basically rephrase 75% of my case on Zent, 20% of Carthrat's case, and throw in a couple fluff sentences.
Anyway, I tend to be bad with reading votes as compared to attitudes. The attitude appeared to be "Zak doesn't seem that bad, let's look elsewhere" in general. Perhaps I'm wrong.
Anyway, magical fairytale land etc. on the Rou accusation.
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Care to point out the instances of rephrasing? I reread your post and Carthrat's after your accusation of parroting but didn't actually notice the posts saying anything that I copied or rephrased.
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OK, honestly, I'm going to drop this point, ##UnFoS: HW
If you'd like I'll produce my quote laden notes that make me come to the conclusion you aren't parroting nearly as badly as I initially thought, but it's pretty much useless in my opinion except as a show your work exercise. It doesn't really say a lot except "My bad. Well wait that's a parrot but...yeah...you add a fair bit to the case so..."
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If this is inaccurate I blame the nazis.
Zakeri (5): Kilgamayan. Roukanken, Serela, Zentillion, Kefit
Chaore (1): Kitten4u
Furienify (1): Alice Margatroid
Serela (1): Chaore
Zentillion (4): Furienify, Carthrat, UncertainKitten, huh what
Roukanken (1): Zakeri
Around 24 hours remain.
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Furienify (2): Alice Margatroid
Those wacky nazis.
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Rat: You were suggesting Zentilion was setting himself up to take whatever stance he needed to down the line (or else why is public indecision scummy?). Look at the things he has said throughout the game and try to parse the idea that his indecision was intentional as opposed to just a newbie being Day 1 Unsure. Hell, try to parse the idea that he'd even think to set something like that up. (I pre-empt your suggestion that buddies help him set it up by pointing out that buddies so involved with helping him would not have let him post that UK stuff.)
UK: I disagree with your logic leap and feel "Day 1 sucks, I'm doing what I can" != "Don't call me out on being wrong". It's true that he was factually wrong, but that's not what Furien pressured him for.
Fake edit: Oh wait, the actual quote. My thoughts are "what makes scum more likely to say that than town?"
Chaore: I haven't pressed my Zakvote because Roukan's said basically everything I wanted to. Also I assumed providing opinions only after being pressed to provide them (and then making them snarky and unhelpful) not counting was self-evident. I will admit I forgot to mention that the whole thing felt a bit like town herding ("here, look, they are delicious wagons we must focus on them") which is another small part of why my vote still sits there.
HW: Most (...well, okay, all) of the generally negative emotion UK conveys is unnecessary, but you might as well ignore it because she's not going to stop.
I see and understand Kefit's general concern but his specifics need work considering one of the two posts he linked was my response to the case on me. (Hilariously, I was originally going to simply ignore the case entirely (gogo Gadget Adverbs!) - maybe I should have?) The second link? The subject being discussed seemed like it specifically called for outside input, so I gave it. If left to its own devices it probably would've become another slapfight over "You're antagonizing me!" "No I'm not!" "Yes you are!" which does nothing but distract town and help scum.
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@Kilga: Already explained. People having a natural aversion to outright lying, etc.
Also, Kilga, Daytalk WIFOM is weak and you know it.
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The daytalk meta was used as a pre-emptive counter to daytalk meta.
As for the natural disposition to truth-telling, I don't buy it for internet purposes.
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@Kilga: I didn't intend to present him as some brilliant planner, no. I don't think he deliberately sat down and thought 'if I'm indecisive here, it will pay dividends in the future'. I do think it's more likely scum will post things, however, that allow them to remain neutral on a discussion whilst appearing to contribute. This even applies to newbie scum; it's a pretty natural way of falling into playing it, actually, because it seems so reasonable and surely everyone will accept it- but it's not actually *hunting!* I think a townie player would have heightened suspicions of others and be less wishy-washy in general. Also, flipflopping like that is padding. Scum feel the need to pad in order to look like they're contributing. I think this is something we would generally agree on?
Anyway, I think that's only one point- the other, on the criteria he uses to lynch- seems as if not more damning. It looks as though he just assigns 'benefit of the doubt' at whim, and the rationale he used with regards to UK should truly speak for itself. But I'll say it anyway; it's made entirely on bizzaro meta logic that seems to justify lynching UK even if she is town!
His buddies are irrelevant, what is your deal bringing them up?
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@Kilga: Already explained. People having a natural aversion to outright lying, etc.
Y'do realise we are playing mafia, right? (Also, FWIW, not all people. But that's a discussion for another place.)
Anyway:
Zentillion wagon is, imho, largely dumb. None of the mistakes he's made is outright scummy thusfar, and you'd expect that someone with buddies would at least have them fact-check his post before posting it, given the sheer quantity of the awful. In any order, if he is scum, expect scum to be bussing him, and probably early on the wagon. That being said, doing wagonalysis without any flips is dumb, and thus any further reasoning down this path is to be saved for later days.
@Carth: except that he's not even voting UK! And really, both NewbScum and NewbTown are likely to be wishy-washy on Day freaking One. There just doesn't seem to be anything outright scummy in his posts, and it's too early in D1 to bring about active lurking charges imho. I don't think he's worth a lynch at this point, even for D1 reasons.
Zakeri wagon I'm still not even sure of the reasons for, despite Zakeri having no less than five votes. This worries me. A lot. Need to go over everyone who's voting him, not to mention him himself. It seems a lot of the reasoning seems to follow down his cheerleading/lack of contribution, which, while interesting, the latter case can't really be brought against him all that much compared to, well, most other peoples' here, really, and the former...eh. I'm not sure if he's scummy enough at this point to warrant a lynch.
Furienify needs to stop making excuses and make a case on someone, anyone, and cram his vote somewhere. He's playing a lot like one class of NewbScum does (namely the "halp how do I lynched Townie?" class). Also, noob or not, we are not letting you get past D1 without actually voting. Lurking is fine, not voting...not so much. Vote stays.
Kilga...really, I'm not seeing everyone's ScumKilga vibes. A lot of it feels as if y'all are trying by force to extrapolate off an extremely small dataset, and thus are coming to this conclusion. At this point, I personally am really just not seeing it :V
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@Carth: except that he's not even voting UK! And really, both NewbScum and NewbTown are likely to be wishy-washy on Day freaking One. There just doesn't seem to be anything outright scummy in his posts, and it's too early in D1 to bring about active lurking charges imho. I don't think he's worth a lynch at this point, even for D1 reasons.
Irrelevant here, really, given the emphasis he put on it. A vote might not be attached, but he's completely mangled any reason he had to vote her in the first place. In fact, he didn't even have a real reason for her to be scum! "She's defensive"... right? So why is he finding it relevant give her 'benefit of the doubt'? What does he think she did in the first place that's so bad?
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Zakeri (5): Kilgamayan. Roukanken, Serela, Zentillion, Kefit
Chaore (1): Kitten4u
Furienify (1): Alice Margatroid
Serela (1): Chaore
Zentillion (4): Furienify, Carthrat, UncertainKitten, huh what
Roukanken (1): Zakeri
~10 hours remain or so.
Zakeri is at L-2! Zentillion is at L-3!
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Okay, sooooo.
Taking a bit of a gambit here, noting Alice's point about Zak's wagon rising to five votes unchallenged, well aware of the fact that MotK town is incredibly good at screwing up. This also comes in connection with me really losing a lot of my interest in the game, tbh, but oh well.
##Unvote
##Vote: Carth
I thought that you were the one who was always screaming at us for lynching people for non-scummy mistakes. No-one is going to be fooled by a horrendous Gambler's Fallacy, and scum wouldn't be stupid enough to try producing that as a defense. Zentillion got pressed for content, had none, and produced fluff that said nothing either way - again, newbtell, not Towntell. Seeing a player of your 'calibre' go at him for that is just plain ridiculous.
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EBWOP: Scumtell, even. >_>
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Very...interesting ^-^.
Anyway, my point about natural aversion to lying is, of course, based on myself. Even in mafia, I still try to avoid telling outright lies. Pragmatically, it's easier to point to the truth part of any prevarication and say you weren't lying. And I think that a fair amount of people do feel bad about lying, even in mafia, but I can't really directly prove that.
Either way, the "whatever my alignment is" statement STILL feels pretty goddamn terrible and I love how all the "respected" players except Carth are ignoring this, or trying to rationalize it. It's a sarcastic I love but I can't really draw any conclusions from it.
I don't think Carth is wrong.
-
Oh...god dammit.
Deadline was an hour ago.
Good job no lynching guys.
-
EBWOP: :V
I can count hours. Sorry, I saw "11:38 AM" and was thinking that was yesterday when...it wasn't.
Nevermind, we have 9 hours left.
-
~5 hours remain!
-
I was hoping for something more of a response. T_T
UK's defense of Carth is noted, if that means anything.
-
Good morning, MotK!
There were several scumtells in that post that went a long way to destroying Zent's newbie cred, so I do not think that defense is valid here.
Also, you are voting me on meta? :|
-
There were several scumtells in that post that went a long way to destroying Zent's newbie cred, so I do not think that defense is valid here.
- Calling UK scum based on odds is not a scumtell, it's a sign you don't know what you're doing.
- Flipflopping over several posts is a scumtell, perhaps. Flipflopping on the same opinion in a single post is just cluelessness.
Also, you are voting me on meta? :|
I'm voting you on the case of 'why on Earth is Carth going for the easy target who really isn't doing anything scummy?'
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Flipflopping + arbitrary nonjustifications + bizzaro meta case suffice as a good enough case for me to vote. "Hasn't done anything scummy" is surely not right, here.
Anyway, that's it from me for today. work work.
-
Breaking my rule of "don't post when hungry" because I'll probably be eating when the dealine hits. :V It looks like it's going to come down to Zak vs Zen, and, as I've said, I think the newbie wagons are silly.
##Unvote
##Vote Zakeri
And that's L-1 methinks.
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That's kind of an awkward jump, K4U. Any reason why you chose to make it? Your post says nothing about the reasoning for your actual vote.
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That's kind of an awkward jump, K4U. Any reason why you chose to make it? Your post says nothing about the reasoning for your actual vote.
It looks like K4U would rather there isn't a No-Lynch, and that at this point, it's clear it will either be Zak or Zent to get lynched if anyone at all. And since she isn't liking the newbie wagons, she'd rather go for Zakeri.
Also, since Rou switched his vote, that only puts Zak at L-2 again, and not L-1.
-
Wait, why would there be no lynch? As far as I'm aware there's not a tie and the majority is on Zak, so...
Speaking of Zak, I'm kind of curious why he still has so many votes.
-
Oh nevermind. Missed Rou's unvote.
-
Because of
Oh...god dammit.
Deadline was an hour ago.
Good job no lynching guys.
When the rules say "No Majority" and "No tie" as different things, I believe majority means a majority of the entire player cast and not just more votes then the others. In other words, if we don't get someone to 7 votes (since there are 13 people right now) by the deadline, No Lynch. And the deadline is in about 2 hours, I think.
It'd be nice if Edible clarified, but due to UK and the rule's wording, I'm pretty sure that's what it meant.
[edible]You hit the nail on the head.[/edible]
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Votes were tied when she posted that though
-
Well, crap. I didn't realise that we needed a majority to get any lynch at all.
##Unvote, Vote: Zakeri (L-1)
Still find the case against him more believable than that against Zentillion.
-
I still don't understand the case on Zak much at all. Could somebody sum it up for me?
-
Honestly, given the choice, I'd rather lynch Zent over Zak, considering Zent has at least done something to warrant a wagon, as opposed to the one on Zak basically springing out of thin air on fairly awkward and meaningless charges.
-
I don't mind if the Lynch happens to be on me. A Bandwagon is a bandwagon, and since mine started pretty early, it should be much harder to hide behind the deadline excuse. I'm sure you guy'll find scum. No hard feelings.
Besides, I probably shouldn't be in this game. The threat of my internet being cut is still real, and I honestly wouldn't have joined if I had known half a week ago.
-
For that matter, I'll put my
moneyvote where my mouth is, and Ninja Zakeri: huh. Not willing to replace /out? We do have some replacements in the queue, and it's early enough (i.e. Day freaking One that such a replacement wouldn't actually be detrimental to the game as a whole)
Brief summary: it's not so much that Zent is scummy (I'm actually decently sure he's town), but rather the fact that the case on Zakeri literally is nonexistent. Let's take a look at some of the votes for him and the reasoning thereof:
Kilga: The only person with decent reasoning on the entire wagon. Zakeri has been cheerleading wagons for most of the game. The problem is, I'm still not sure what to make of this, as I actually agree with him that said wagons are on DerpTown instead of Actual Scum, so yeah. Overall, fine.
Roukan: Same reasoning as Kilga, I suppose is fine. Voteshift to Carthrat actually makes him look more Townie in my mind, due to the sheer bizarreness and inanity of it all.
NeoSerela: I've read your posts over a zillion times and still can't seem to find a reason for your vote. What, I mean seriously, just what?
Zentillion: You claim UK is the most Scummy, then vote Zakeri for...what reasons *exactly*, anyway?
K4U: whee awkward-ass votejump.
So Kilga and Roukan are fine, Serela, Zentillion and K4U are all awful. The worst part is that I'm pretty sure that both Zentillion and Zakeri are probably Town, but it's too late to start an alternate wagon right now anyway. Thus, given the choice, and the fact that the latter 3 people on the Zakeri wagon are really unsettling me and yeah.
-
I could replace out, but it would just be a jerk move to do when I'm the one with the most votes on him.
-
Been around, haven't had much to say. I guess Rat and I will just have to agree to disagree.
Speaking of disagreeing, I have to disagree with Alice's assessment of Roukan's vote flip to Rat, it's weak reasoning and could possibly be a jump away from double town trains in an attempt to gain credit with "hey look my vote was elsewhere when the day ended!" though obviously this would require some flips to really have any meaning.
K4U's jump is timely, yes, but was at least telegraphed by her earlier sentiments regarding newbie wagons. I'd be more suspicious of her if she went to Zent instead.
-
One hour remains!
-
...could you at least have posted a LAZY votecount there so I could know who's closest to lynch? Kinda helps so close to deadline.
-
The Case on Zen Master boils down to this:
-Using Craplogic to push a (failed) wagon on UK (Found by Furien)
-A "Cake and eat it, too" Approach to flipfloping (Found by Carthrat)
UK and huh what don't bring up anything new on the case, but their answers are depthy enough to make me think they're either really good at plagiarism or not parroting for the sake of bad-wagoning.
The first point is a legitimate point to use against him, and alone it's good enough for a day one case. The second point however doesn't hold as much water, since Zen Master is pretty new and you can always expect someone new to not know he needs to hold back on second guessing himself. I agree his play has been anti-town to this point.
Normally, I'd hate to vote for someone for this sort of play, mainly because it feels more like we're punishing someone for not knowing how to play than anything else. But this is one of those things you've just got to suck up and learn not to do next time, Zen Master.
##Unvote
##Vote: Zentillion (L-2)
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The Somethingth Unnofficial close to deadline votecount:
Zakeri (6): Kilgamayan. Roukanken, Serela, Zentillion, Kefit, Kitten4u
Furienify (1): Alice Margatroid
Serela (1): Chaore
Zentillion (5): Furienify, Carthrat, UncertainKitten, huh what, Zakeri
I am at L-1
Zentillion is at L-2
-
Did we just manage to get an even split, assuming Alice switches his vote?
How does this happen DAY 1?
-
Actually, there's still your vote. :V
-
orz? Isn't no lynch a bad thing?
-
While you obviously can't verify this, my case on Zent was "original" by my point of view since I was essentially typing it as I read, and didn't read Furien's or Carth's posts til after I already was pretty sold on Zent scum.
I guess it's semi evident in my catch up post, but I figured I'd put it out there. I can also show where HW actually has some decent semi original points if necessary.
And yes, no lynch is a bad thing. You should probably vote, Furienfly...
-
Chaore and Alice still both have a say in this. Aside from anyone who wants to vote switch that is.
Yes Furien, no lynch is a bad thing.
UK: I figured that was the case with both you and huh what, which is why I added that I don't think either of you were parroting.
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Chaore, what's your opinion on the bandwagons beyond "oh they're pretty close if Alice switches"?
-
I don't WANT to vote switch. But we have a half hour left. If I can't get a Zent lynch, I will switch to Zakeri. I really would prefer not to do this though.
-
Well, don't count on me vote switching. :derp:
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Chaore, what's your opinion on the bandwagons beyond "oh they're pretty close if Alice switches"?
Alice is probably right, We're probably between double towns here. Neither case is very strong. No matter which one is lynched, I'm not about to get my hopes up for scum flip.
For the time-porpoise, I'm going to ##Unvote, ##Vote: Zakeri
I don't like Zent's train, I especially don't like how late it came up, and on the terms of likely to be scum, I'm going to give Zent newbie leniency and Zak a sorry pat on the back. Fact of the matter I think the Zent train is mostly a distraction.
I especially find Alice odd. Mostly because he finds both townie, but goes for the one farther from lynch, which just seems like a distraction from a lynch and I'll explain this better and hope for an alice explanation day 2 because time is running low.
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For the time-porpoise
Dolphin from the future?
Anyway HAMMER SHUT UP.
-
Wellp :V.
-
(http://i42.tinypic.com/11cb76e.jpg)
I have no regrets.
-
FOR THE TIME-PORPOISE would make a great battle cry.
-
I was watching the NFL draft
When they called the Jags' pick, I laughed
"Who the hell is Alualu?" I cried.
... Oh, by the way - Zakeri died.
The draft has delayed the fact that Zakeri, playing huh what, Townie has been lynched!
It is now Night 1. You have 24 hours or so to send in your night actions.
(The topic may be used at night, just no game analysis.)
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Bah. Go town.
Wait, what?
-
(http://i42.tinypic.com/11cb76e.jpg)
I have no regrets.
You are my new favorite for this.
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We can screw around at night?
Time for Hangmafia o/
_ _ _ _ _ _
Find all the scummy letters before you run out of townies! 13 alive.
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Pesco, Kilga killed you in one of the very first posts of this game, you can't post in this thread anymore.
Also I'll guess ?.
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No talking about the game at night.
_ _ _ _ _ _
12 alive.
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I just helped send an innocent man to death. ..Let's hope i'm not the next one to the gallows.
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Also I'll guess ?.
Too many letters for that.
T plz
-
R
-
T R ? Y
_ _ _ _ _ _
9 alive
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Y
-
I wanna play Hangmafia too~
S
-
T R ? Y S
_ _ _ _ _ _
8 alive
-
I can has contribute to town deaths?
E
-
T R ? Y S
E _ _ _ _ E
7 alive
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##Vote: P
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Whaaaat I got one I didn't contribute to town deaths. :ohdear:
A
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I THINK I GOT IT.
##Vote: D
-
T R ? Y S P A
E D _ _ _ E
4 alive
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I, B, and L.
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T R ? Y S P A
E D I B L E
1 alive You win :V
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:V
It's so obvious. He's hardcore lurking and when he posts it's just a votecount. Never adds content.
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It's been close enough to a day
Unsurprisingly, scum's out to play
They went for the kill
Kilgamayan fell ill
But turns out it was just tooth decay
Kilgamayan, playing Zakeri, Substitute Player #1, didn't get to the dentist in time!
...
Kilgamayan has been replaced by Kilgamyon!
The votecount has been reset. With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. You have 72 hours.
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Hahahahahahahahahahaha.
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3955/1203911374986.th.jpg) (http://img26.imageshack.us/i/1203911374986.jpg/)
It is on like a light switch now, bitches.
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Explanation as to whether or not the Kilga 'death' is flavour or role, please.
Also, ##Vote: Carth. I'm still serious about the fact that Carth was trying too hard to press Zentillion as scum for non-scummy mistakes.
[edible]Kilgamayan died and became Kilgamyon. Kilgamyon is a ghost.[/edible]
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I'm curious how Rou knows Zent is town and how he plans to demonstrate Zent's mistakes weren't scummy.
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Stop killing me :ohdear:
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I'm curious how Rou knows Zent is town and how he plans to demonstrate Zent's mistakes weren't scummy.
I've already made my points. Indecision over one post doesn't make sense as a scumtell, blatant bad statistics are as likely to be bad Town as bad Scum, and as such I'm unconvinced the case is anything more than IF I KEEP SHOUTING AND MAKING THIS ZENTILLION POWER JOKE PEOPLE WILL GO ALONG WITH MY CASE.
Also interesting - why did the Furienify case gain nowhere near the following the Zentillion case did? There were a couple of people pointing out the lack of vote, but it never gained the popularity the Zent case did. If either of them are going to be scum, then I think it makes more sense for it to be Furienify and scum pressed the other cases to get it to fall behind. Likewise with Chaore, who also got mentioned a lot but never followed up on. Carth is especially guilty of this, as I've already said.
-
Okay so here's the deal.
I am effectively dead - I cannot vote and do not count toward the active player list for lynch threshold purposes - but I can still talk during the day as much as I want (though I will vanish during LYLO). What this means is that I can ad hom and sling mud at UK left and right and there isn't a damn thing she can do about it because I've already flipped. 8)
My reaction to Zak's flip was that of mild surprise - I admit I was starting to wonder as the day drew to a close, but he still felt like the best chance to me. The Zak wagon on the whole was admittedly pretty weak, however (it's a bad thing when the only other guy I counted as a legit vote on him moved away from him later), and my suspicions of Zentillion are raised for a couple of reasons as a result. Also looking at these people:
- Roukan, for moving away from the two trains onto a bad Rat case that obviously wasn't going to take (and then persisting with it through to today). I do not think Rat should be voted for at this time, I'd want Zent's flip before I opened a case on hijm for his Day 1 behavior (or for him to start acting scummy in a different capacity). I'm slightly more willing to forgive striking out on one's own at the end of a day when someone claims to not like any of the leading trains and their new case is actually good, but Roukan seemed pretty happy with thinking Zakeri was scum and his reasons for voting Rat were spurious at best. Would probably place my vote here if I had one.
- Kefit. Most of his Zakeri vote is wordy rehash and part of it draws comparisons to an action taken by a townie in a previous game. Looks more like an attempt to just hop onto a bandwagon than an actual case against the guy. The poke at me was also pretty weak; trying to spin my responding to a case against me as me trying to perpetuate a town/town span is lol.
- K4U. I know I said her vote switch was telegraphed by her statement regarding newbie wagons, but still, it allowed her to just slide onto the wagon while saying amazingly (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318831#msg318831) little (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg319977#msg319977) about the guy she was voting for. Eeeeeeeeeeeee. Do not like.
I've also kinda lost track of Alice in the shuffle of things, which is probably Not A Good Thing, but eh.
-
This is actually a very good point. I don't recall Furienfly improving, but apparently he was an "easy target" and therefore not touchable. I wonder who the players were that were calling him an easy target and trying to dismiss the case on him...HMMMMM~!
Kilghost has some very good posting.
Glad I was wrong about my early bad vibes ^-^.
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This is actually a very good point. I don't recall Furienfly improving, but apparently he was an "easy target" and therefore not touchable. I wonder who the players were that were calling him an easy target and trying to dismiss the case on him...HMMMMM~!
My point is that by my earlier definition, Furienify and Zentillion were BOTH easy targets. Why, then, did Zentillion's wagon start flying ahead while Furienify stayed still? Therefore it's highly unlikely that Zent's advancing case wasn't scum-oriented.
Does that work in terms of why I'm not convinced by the Zent case?
-
To posit that, you also have to posit that Furien is scum.
Also, Zent's advancing case was a counterwagon against a very healthy TOWN wagon that you supported. I'm not sure how Zent's advancing case somehow can't be scum oriented?
-
There has to be a reason attention conveniently didn't land on him, hasn't there? After I had my little 'screw this, think outside the box' moment at the end of D1 I noticed that Furienify had taken the first chance he got to jump on Zentillion and didn't offer anything afterward.
Zent being a scum wagon to counteract the Zak wagon is hard to swallow. Here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318405#msg318405) Furienify, Chaore and UK are all getting examined behind Zakeri, when suddenly all three of those cases get practically disregarded to make way for Zentillion. Why?
-
If you are positing Furien scum, I could probably get behind that, which my first post on the subject was indicating. I actually wasn't directing my sarcasm so much at you as whoever else was dismissing the wagon.
To be fair, Zent hadn't DONE anything until his terrible post, and the Zak case was not disregarded, obviously.
-
Here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318405#msg318405) Furienify, Chaore and UK are all getting examined behind Zakeri, when suddenly all three of those cases get practically disregarded to make way for Zentillion. Why?
I note you'd switched off of me, and the only one 'examining' me was K4U at that point, Edible is just a giant derpsicle.
As for this mess, it's a bunch of stupidity. Cases not gaining strength is never always scum-motivated. For example, Why did you move off me a
-
EBWP: And why does my computer take me typing a post as a sign to spaz out and post?
-
To be fair, Zent hadn't DONE anything until his terrible post, and the Zak case was not disregarded, obviously.
But for all three cases to be disregarded so thoroughly is something to note.
So yeah, if it came down to it I would support a Furienify lynch today. Still think Carth's just sitting back and proving that MotK Town will buy any case as long as it's sarcastic and CRUISE CONTROL enough.
-
Well, there's the fact I agree with the Zent case and STILL don't understand how you are dismissing what he's done as not scummy, no matter how many times you try to reiterate it. It just doesn't parse.
Also, I just realized how I misread your last post. I don't think that the three you mentioned were getting enough scrutiny to truly be wagonable in the first place.
-
UK, I want to see you put a vote down somewhere.
-
Why now? Barely anyone has checked in. Hell, I haven't even reviewed the game to decide if I like Zentillion or Furienfly for scum more.
I propose you wait until people have checked in and I can be arsed to do an ISO of the two I mentioned.
-
All I can say is that I disagree that Zent's one post of general cluelessness is worse than
- Furienify's OH NOES I'M NOT VOTING
- Chaore's OH NOES I'D BETTER STAY AWAY FROM THE JOKEWAGON AND OMGUS and
- UK's OH NOES KILGA IS SCUM FOR REASONS I CAN'T SEEM TO PUT INTO WORDS.
None of them are particularly spectacular, maybe. But I don't see what made Zentillion worse besides that Carth's case against him was full of CRUISE CONTROL AND EMPHASIS!!!
I honestly don't have it in me to argue every little tidbit right now. Feeling pretty lousy atm. Need some goddamn sleep. :|
-
Suddenly it becomes "comparatively" worse.
I also love how you only mention Carth's case, as opposed to everything else that was pointed out.
Also, the case on Furien was far more than that.
Also, I like saying also.
-
Why now?
Because I want to see what you have to say about the trains and flips.
-
That would require me to ISO Furien and Zent. I am reasonably convinced there is scum amongst them. Zent since he has become no less scummy than he was yesterday, and Furien because I find it interesting what Rou pointed out about the case on him disappearing.
Will that suffice til I sink more time into this godforsaken thing?
-
Ok- sorry, what? What is this 'Furienify is not voting, let's get him' vibe coming from? I voted. I saw Zentillion's scumtells and elaborated on them, and placed my vote as I was asked (by HW I think). Hell, my entire first vote was a joke, but the second one I at least had reasons to back it up on.
The reason my train didn't move forward while Zent's did is both because A. He had two people elaborating on his case without being douchebags (See: Self, Carthrat... you might learn from that) and B. The case on me was a questionable one to begin with. I suppose there's also a C involving Zakeri's vote train, that nobody could really follow for the life of them.
-
I love how Furien's contribution is to defend the one point that is probably weakest against him.
Who's scum Furien?
-
I love how Furien's contribution is to defend the one point that is probably weakest against him.
Who's scum Furien?
I genuinely wish you weren't 80% snark, 20% content-hiding-behind-rage. I really do.
-
I genuinely wish you'd answer my question rather than give me a witty rejoinder. I really do.
-
I genuinely wish you'd answer my question rather than give me a witty rejoinder. I really do.
Who's scum?
Right now, I'm starting to look at you and Rou.
-
UK, stop antagonizing the newbie. You are not helping.
Furien, please tell us why you think Roukan and UK are scum, and do not let UK antagonizing you color your case on her. I want to see something any player can appreciate, "she's picking on me" will not fly.
-
Kilga, why are you giving Furien a free pass on antagonizing me first? The snark in response to my completely serious question about who's scum was uncalled for, and I was within my rights to use a parallel response. Quit seeing things one sided because of my meta. Thank you.
-
Furien, I can't tell what you're trying to do at all. Mind giving your reasons for why Rou and UK are scum?
Currently waiting for a post from Zent. I'm still not feeling that great about him but I'd rather wait to see what he has to say now that Zak got lynched before voting him.
-
Kilga, why are you giving Furien a free pass on antagonizing me first?
Because you should know better.
The snark in response to my completely serious question about who's scum was uncalled for
The sarcasm in your first line was also uncalled for, and it is what he reacted to. Do not try to play the victim card here.
-
The sarcasm in the first line was hardly even a jab, and generally how I express myself in this game. It wasn't even directly insulting, just a clearly obvious statement of dislike for Furien's supposed contribution.
Don't try to play moderator here, Kilga. You are not the mod of this game.
I'm willing to not be caustic to people, but I'm not going to hold back my displeasure at disappointing contributions.
Now, would you like to waste more chaff posts arguing about this, or is it suddenly protown to needle someone on an obvious shortcoming?
-
UK, stop antagonizing the newbie. You are not helping.
Furien, please tell us why you think Roukan and UK are scum, and do not let UK antagonizing you color your case on her. I want to see something any player can appreciate, "she's picking on me" will not fly.
Actually, going back over the posts wherein I was getting scumvibes from Rou, I was wrong. His votes on Zakeri were all well within reason. The UK vibes still stick and I'm working on a post right now.
-
I don't believe it is chaff at all to correct an anti-town playstyle. Were I to push toward other things, though, I would just be asking you to forget waiting for other people to post (this goes for you too, HW) and form a voteable opinion based on what's been presented in the topic so far. I have four people I'd feel comfortable voting for right now if I had one, and I'd like to see at least one from both of you. If an iso is necessary, then do it.
-
I'll do it when it's not a half hour before bed.
Sorry Kilga, guess spending all that time arguing with me about how terrible my sarcasm is did cause problems ^-^.
Oh, I'm sorry. That was sarcastic, and I'm not allowed to do that.
-
I don't believe it is chaff at all to correct an anti-town playstyle. Were I to push toward other things, though, I would just be asking you to forget waiting for other people to post (this goes for you too, HW) and form a voteable opinion based on what's been presented in the topic so far. I have four people I'd feel comfortable voting for right now if I had one, and I'd like to see at least one from both of you. If an iso is necessary, then do it.
I don't want to grab a target on my forehead, but what's an ISO? Can't find it on the mafia wiki.
-
EBWOP (yay I learned what that is~): By 'target on my forehead' I mean 'cause people to think LOL HE'S ASKING QUESTIONS TO HIDE BEHIND NOOBNESS'.
-
I captialize it but it's really one word. Isolation, which in and of itself is short for "view in isolation". Which, on this forum, amounts to "Ctrl-F, type in player name, ???, profit"
Tends to let you notice trends, but sacrifices context to do so.
And no, that's actually a fair question. Honestly, I'd be on anyone who was silly enough to accuse you of doing that. I imagine a lot of other people would be too.
-
UK: Less excuses and buck-passing, more votes and opinions, please.
Furienify: "Iso" is short for "isolation" which is where you go through the entire topic focused entirely on the content of one user.
Fake edit: Well, there you go.
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Then you'll have to wait til tomorrow for a concentrated opinion/vote, dearest Kilga.
I've only said that how many times?
I can still do short posts in response to current events though, that doesn't take but like, 2 seconds a post.
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I dunno what an ISO is :S
I'm working on a post though.
-
Rou honestly seems to just be trying to avoid mentioning the Zakeri wagon for two seconds. Given that A. He denounced it at the last second (Trying to look good?) B. The wagon did actually come up town. I see no reason why he is still looking at the Zent wagons and people ignored instead of at the wagon we've no reason to believe isn't scum motivated.
In fact, this sect of discussion and focus is... really kind of enough along with his zany 'Let me move my vote elsewhere so it looks like I don't actually like the wagon coming up town right now' action. I'm pretty sure out of everyone right now, I'm best with a ##Vote: Roukanken.
But on the subject of the wagon, I'm going to echo on Kilga's dislike of K4U's complete lack of content. She doesn't even try to HONESTLY post a case on me despite believing I'm 'probable scum', and seems fine just chilling until it's apparent that it's going to be Zak or bust. Possibly trying to avoid being affiliated formally with the wagon, but not certain.
Kefit coming out of nowhere is a nulltell as far as I'm concerned. He could honestly just NOT have been around for the festivities. Like a bit more from him today.
I've mentioned how Serela really seems to be seeing 'Wagon first, Logic later' on his first action, and I still don't like him for it, Rou just looks quite a bit worse now. Zentillion I'm still going to say is probably a newbie looking at everything and going 'Fuck, HOW DO I VOTE SCUM?' and goes for the 'established' case. Does look worse from the case though.
I'm also going to honestly say Alice's little 'I'd rather see Zent lynched' bit is actually rather odd. It's like hes trying to put himself against the Zakeri wagon without actually committing to the result of it happening... by 'conveniently' managing to not actually put his vote where his mouth is. Making it nigh impossible to get the lynch out. In fact, I'm half sure even if I did support Zent's wagon, We'd have to at the last second make a switch because alice doesn't commit. (Given we went around 7 minutes to deadline, it seems like that would be the case).
I'll also check out Zent's wagon a bit more (Since it came up a bit late for me to really get a good read over last night) But I'm going to say I'll keep my vote on Rou. Scum hunting doesn't involve trying to ignore the train you're on, it involves looking at it and finding the scum that was on it. Somewhat fine with a K4U lynch if it comes to it instead.
Ninja Lots of People: Whoaly Zen. How long did I spend typing this AG- it's 11:33 how is it 11:33 I started typing this at 10 son of a.
Ninja Huhwhat: Isn't that a type of file? :V
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Meh
##Vote NeoSerela
Why did he vote Zakeri? No, seriously, I don't get it. His original vote is coupled with the most blatant parroting I've ever seen (he just said he voted him for the reasons Rou said). While he did elaborate on his vote on #128, the substance of the post is minimal: the first half of the blurb about Zakeri is either parroting or Serela being Captain Obvious, and the latter half happened after he switched onto the Zak wagon, which does not make his original vote look better at all. Before that post, he also claimed he was hoping to switch his vote after voting (what?) and brings up a bunch of filler about Kilga + Zakeri (who have both flipped town now) being a scumpair which he eventually admits was just pointless bauble (possibly to fake actual content?). Note that while he said that when he reread the topic he felt content with his vote on Zakeri, he never actually explained why in that post.
Seriously, he delayed giving all of his reasons for voting until #128, and when he did elaborate, half of his reasons were invalid because they happened after he voted, and the other half added little. To me, it feels like newbscum looking at a votecount/skimming posts and taking advantage of a potential wagon instead of actually having to think about voting.
Also of note is that the only other person he really talked about that day was Zent. The only two players he mentioned were the two who had bandwagons on them.
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Three things that have been pinging my scumdar from UK:
1. Jumping on a joke vote in an attempt to garner an easy lynch (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg317747#msg317747). Right out the door.
2. Trying to pin scumtells on people for posting vote counts, AKA 'trying too hard' as Rou states in the next post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg317812#msg317812) (which I agree with). There's also a lot of conflict over supposed meta-reading towards Kilga, but it may not be my place to touch that.
(following this is walls of posts where UK/Rou fight over strawman arguments that didn't really exist. Deliberate stirring of chaos.)
3. Here Kilga makes a perfect observation. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318461#msg318461) Particularly:
"Looks like indecision + rehash + comments on newbies designed to make her look better rather than actually accomplish anything."
This is the impression I've been getting all game. Generally speaking, scum are preoccupied with making themselves look good all game. She plays the role perfectly, too: Get hostile, lead witch-hunts while still being somewhat wishy-washy to create chaos. Try and make yourself unapproachable, pull the lynch trains along.
It's hard to say how much of this is just her personality/playstyle talking. I find a lot of the case on me to be pretty baseless aside from a temporary lack of content day one. But still, she'll keep trying to hammer the lynch home. And as is, I'm not sure where I want to vote between Zentillion and UK, but we've got awhile to go yet on this day.
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Beep beep!
Carthrat (1): Roukanken
Roukanken (1): Chaore
Serela (1): huh what
Not voting: Everyone else
Some sort of time between 72 hours and 48 hours remains.
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Uh, your third bullet point there was originally directed at K4U.
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.... Was it?
Goddamnit KITTENS.
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Day 2 begins, and I'm still alive, even after my ABYSMAL performance in day 1. I'm going to have to step up my game if I hope to see the end of this alive.
To make sure i don't make the same mistakes as last time, I'm going to make sure to think my cases through before I even start to pick who I think is scum, so I'm not voting yet. Back to looking through everything with a fine-toothed comb for a bit.
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I don't really agree on the Rouscum charge, his timing is not so spurious if you take him saying 'wtf we need majority' at face value, and 10 hour~ turnarounds have happened before. His words are hurtful but what can you do, it's a stance I can see townies holding.
Honestly, given the choice, I'd rather lynch Zent over Zak, considering Zent has at least done something to warrant a wagon, as opposed to the one on Zak basically springing out of thin air on fairly awkward and meaningless charges.
Zakeri (7): Kilgamayan. Roukanken, Serela, Zentillion, Kefit, Kitten4u, Chaore
Furienify (1): Alice Margatroid
Zentillion (5): Furienify, Carthrat, UncertainKitten, huh what, Zakeri
Given the choice, you chose... nothing? Were you just waiting to see what Chaore did? Don't play that passive, it is quite striking. Whilst it may be true that changing your vote would've changed nothing, it is also true that by not voting at all you don't add further impetus to your desired result. This is close enough to active lurking that I'm compelled to reread your work so far. Found that most of what you do isn't really scumhunting, so much as widespread comments on how virtually everything going on is stupid. You kinda had something on Furien, I think, since he was pretty much lurking behind not voting. Except you barely seem interested in your own case, given the ratio of chaff-to-myvote wordage you spend on it. No sense that you were really trying to push it at all.
tldr; if you were voting Furien, why didn't you push his case harder? Why'd you spend so much time, comparatively, on other stuff? Why didn't you have a vote on either train at the end of yesterday? It's very active-lurkerish, I feel, and worthy of votage. ##Vote: Alice
Zent remains a solid contender for my vote today. Zilch has changed on that front.
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Furien's "case" does not require a response.
Not because it's good and I'm in awe of how right it is.
It's trash. It has no bearing on anything. I'll reply anyway since it will be demanded of me. But seriously? This is bullshit.
The "easy lynch" thing was more like "Um...you were making an opportunist vote and you had already made a 'joke vote' IIRC. It's kinda serious"
The "trying to pin scumtells" thing? Didn't we already go over that being me trying to justify a gut read for once? (albeit an incorrect one). Further, I've seen scum be generally "helpful" with votecounts and such. It's a minor scumtell for me, but sure as hell good enough for page 2.
The fights always happen and there were a fuckton of strawmans regardless of you trying to dismiss them because it doesn't fit your pretty case.
Point 3 was already addressed. I will refrain from insulting you for being wrong but dear God I would like to so badly right now.
I will decide if there is a case on you Furien. Probably soon once I've caught up in all my other mafia games. Cause, quite frankly, despite the really terrible logic and absolute fail of your case, it's actually designed with some rather townie intent from the way I'm reading it.
The Alice case seems solid, I'll look into it after I check out Furien and Zent.
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Going to observe first that I was initially wrong about Furien's vote not seeming like a joke vote. I thought he had posted one previously. This would be my mistake.
See, this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318005#msg318005) post is, however, blatant misrep combined with excusing lack of content. Which really isn't good.
You amend to hostile but yeah we already had that discussion. It's now the "excusing lack of content" that bugs me.
This (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318346#msg318346) was also covered by "why do you care about looking like you are OMGUSing"
Doubly hilarious when you take this most recent quote of yours:
Generally speaking, scum are preoccupied with making themselves look good all game.
The post on Zent (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318409#msg318409) is null to me. I only point this out because it has town cred potential but the circumstances allow for a scum grasping on any case to save him.
The next post is rather good, though, IMO.
-Ok, I'm mostly going to ask why after two pages of content, your only response is this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg320102#msg320102)?
-Why is this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg321213#msg321213) post pure defense with 4 pages of content to comment on?
I notice that a lot of page 8 and 9 is spent DRAGGING your opinions on who's scum out of you. This does not bode well.
Ok, iso conclusions...Furien starts off bad, gets decent for a couple posts, and promptly ignores too many pages of content. I would like answers to my questions, which I have conveniently bolded. I'm oddly enough not sold on Furien scum, but could be.
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This first post is wow (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318334#msg318334), and not a good wow. That's basically "Don't worry if I don't produce D1, it's ok!" The excusing lack of content is...wow.
Everyone has been over this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318402#msg318402) infamous post. Summary is:
-Bad logic, but even if he finds me scummy for supposedly being scum often, he still ignores this "scumtell", which as has been pointed out, implies no desire to catch scum.
-Fencesit xEveryone basically, just he comments on the visible players to look like he's producing content.
-Fencesit with slight committment to HAPPEN to get on the most popular wagon at the time, being Zak.
The excuses here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318427#msg318427) further do not impress. It's pretty much a flailing of sorts. He goes through about three different excuses.
this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318449#msg318449) also bugs me. More excuses, blatant hypocrisy with regards to Zak, and just overall badness.
This is cute. Zent did not post for the remainder of D1. Can you say lurking to get under the radar much?
Honestly, this is short enough and I delineate the case (I think) so I'll just post this as is. But, overall, Zent is still looking terrible, as I anticipated.
I do await his analysis, it might change my mind. but for now, quite comfortable with a ##Vote Zentillion
Gonna go ask Alice now. By ask I mean ISO.
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Preface: Thanks a lot Alice. I have to copy and paste your name to ISO you. Jerk >=[
In retrospect, this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg317622#msg317622) is mildly scummy. Not ridiculously so, but mildly in that given Alice's reputation, he could pretty much expect the focus to shift to anyone who voted him, and make it seem like a town tell due to lol reactions.
Next post really lacks fault except using the self vote for the exact town cred I expected him to.
this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg317952#msg317952) feels very cautious, almost testing the waters. I think it's slightly scummy.
this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg319526#msg319526) semi-reverses the scum read of the last post. Main problem I have is the Zent bit. This isn't scummy at first, but it's what I remember of his later contribution "being ok with the Zent lynch".
Also, there's a bit of a "Well, I'm going to say this, but it's stupid at the moment so don't listen" with the wagon analysis is stupid without flips things. He's right about the latter, but why did you even suggest the "scum early on the wagon" thing then? I know you say for later days, but there's something about the tone that feels like a set up.
this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg320027#msg320027) post is actually quite scummy and I'm surprised I didn't notice it at the time:
-Where's the "putting your vote where your mouth is" on Zent, Alice?
-Why is half your post IIoA?
Ok, I don't have much more on it. It just bugs me (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ItJustBugsMe?from=Main.JustBugsMe) though.
And that's Alice. I definitely see the case on him. I like the case on Zent better, especially since I think Zent's flip will shed more light on Alice and other's alignments.
So, there you go, opinions.
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I don't really agree on the Rouscum charge, his timing is not so spurious if you take him saying 'wtf we need majority' at face value, and 10 hour~ turnarounds have happened before. His words are hurtful but what can you do, it's a stance I can see townies holding.
I'm taking that at face value, it's the only reason he switched back. Elsewise he would've sat on his poorly defended switch case on you and acted like he didn't like the Zak wagon. Straight up until it turned town. Given that a good third of his switch post is trying to establish a 'Rou doesn't like the Zak wagon' feeling, I'd have to say while his case is something town would do, he wasn't at all trying very hard for a 10 hour~ turn around so much as move his vote.
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-Ok, I'm mostly going to ask why after two pages of content, your only response is this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg320102#msg320102)?
Because I wanted Zentillion lynched. I made one of the opening posts on him, I didn't find Zakeri to be scummy, and Zakeri turned up town anyways!
-Why is this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg321213#msg321213) post pure defense with 4 pages of content to comment on?
I notice that a lot of page 8 and 9 is spent DRAGGING your opinions on who's scum out of you. This does not bode well.
As if. That was a simple snarkfest, lasting 1/5th the time most of yours did.
Responses in italics, still weighing UK v. Zentillion.
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UK, Furienify, stop taking jabs at each other. It's animosity like that that's pretty much killed off my interest in MotK Mafia. I have to wonder if all this overblown, overdone rage is just some sort of half-hearted two-way bussing, though.
Chaore: All I can say in terms of the Zak wagon is that Alice's call of 'wait, how did he get to 5 votes?' sort of disturbed me. Not going to sit here and argue otherwise.
##Unvote
##Vote: UncertainKitten
Because honestly, your 'UK picks fights with everyone and throws ad homs all over the place' meta is getting MASSIVELY overplayed here. Kilga discussion on D1 looks worse now that he's flipped Town. And 'hey, I can see cases on FOUR DIFFERENT PLAYERS' does absolutely nothing to help.
Apologies that I don't have the heart right now to produce a WoT incriminating her only to see it get beaten down when I turn out to be wrong as usual. >_>
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Those really are non answers.
Again, how does wanting Zent lynch excuse commenting on four pages of content?
Also, Rou, I'd advise you to actually make a true case rather than get frustrated at my supposed antagonism.
Quite honestly, I've been good this game. I haven't done nearly as many ad homs as you all apparently think. Quite frankly, I'm sick of being accused of things that are blatantly false.
So you know what? Do some goddamn work. Point out EVERY example of "ad hom" I have engaged in this game. I guarantee either you're being oversensitive and can't define ad hom, or you will find that there isn't really a whole lot there and your vote is quite simply frustration for no good reason.
Finally, I've done ISOs on three players. Where in the nine hells do you get "sees cases on four people?"
Secondly, Furien's case is still being determined. He needs to answer my questions satisfactorily. It's possible but he's by far the least scummy of the three I ISO'd.
So, we are down to seeing the case on two people. Am I not allowed to accuse two people of being scum, Rou?
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EBWOP: First two lines at Furien, rest is at Rou
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Ad hom is probably the wrong term, yes, but the real words I'm looking for would make me a hypocrite to say the least.
Anyway, a collection of UK's best:
The funny thing is Rou, most of your posts make me feel the same way, about the head hurting due to ridiculousness ^-^
And I've explained why the burden of proof has returned to you, Rou. You should read.
(And btw, YOU NEVER CLARIFIED THIS POINT)
And stop strawmanning? You've made enough hay to feed a horse for a year.
But that's ok, because you're Alice and allowed to say whatever the hell you want.
Dear god, this post, how amazingly scummy it is.
Also, Carth, your case on me is about the stupidest thing I've ever seen.
Oh god, the bullshit brigade starts.
The stupid is so INCREDIBLY stupid I just....there are not words
Wow, that's amazing Furien. On the one hand, you're right. On the other, you still haven't done anything of merit this game.
But whatever, you clearly aren't listening because you have your magical sparkly version of events.
Anyway, magical fairytale land etc. on the Rou accusation.
I wonder who the players were that were calling him an easy target and trying to dismiss the case on him...HMMMMM~!
I love how Furien's contribution is to defend the one point that is probably weakest against him.
I genuinely wish you'd answer my question rather than give me a witty rejoinder. I really do.
Don't try to play moderator here, Kilga. You are not the mod of this game.
Oh, I'm sorry. That was sarcastic, and I'm not allowed to do that.
This is the sort of play that makes it feel like none of us are really friends as much as we are opponents. It's how I feel when I play at RPGDL, true, but that's because I don't know anyone there. Here I'm playing with people I know pretty well, and not only is there no friendly vibe but we're at each other's throats.
It is taking an embarrassing amount of self control to not collapse into a pile of insults and name-throwing. I just don't care enough to produce some huge case, to make up for every little mistake I make, and if that lack of dedication gets me lynched then so be it. I haven't felt so unwelcome in a game of Mafia since Invasion.
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Response:
1. A little out of line, not really terrible
2. That's...nothing. I really don't see how that counts.
3. That's...also nothing. A pretty valid criticism actually.
4. So I'm not allowed to call posts scummy? Um...
5. I'm also not allowed to call cases on me stupid? I wasn't even saying Carth was stupid, just that his case on me was.
6. A little rough, but a fair response to unsubstantiated attacks on me. But, I'll give you that one.
7. It's not clear that I'm referring to the post, not the player there. I'll accept it could have been phrased better.
8. ...what? No, seriously, how does that even count? That's...wow.
9. A little sarcastic, but still valid. Not even attacking the player.
10. See 9
11. That's really nothing as well. A little sarcastic but not even amazingly rudely so.
12. That's also pretty valid. I don't see anything wrong.
13. The parallelism might have been a bit much. I'll cede that.
14. See 13.
15. Well, considering that most of your examples are fairly light sarcasm, and I could probably point to examples from every other player...
Ok, so, I've concluded that Rou is just over sensitive and if sarcasm isn't allowed in mafia games, I'm not really sure I want to play them anymore.
Honestly, grow some thicker skin. Mafia isn't a game where we dance through a field of flowers. There were a couple overly caustic things in there, but seriously, most of it should hardly register.
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I can't give you a good answer, UK. I've spent the last half hour trying to come up with one. All I can offer is I feel like crap right now, and being useless at Mafia and getting reprimanded for it is not helping me. I've already learned that going into even this much detail is AtE, so there's no point in continuing.
Maybe I'll feel better later and give a damn. Maybe I won't. But right now I honestly just want nothing to do with anything. >_>
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It would be wise for both of us to withdraw and cool down for a couple hours I believe. I'm ignoring this thread for awhile.
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I've been rereading the topic a few times. Mostly, I'm coming up with absolutely nothing (ITT I have no scum-dar), but after ISO-ing a few people, I've started to think Chaore is a little suspicious. Let's start with Alice's self-vote incident. Very quickly, Carth and Furi jump on and set Alice at L-3 (Although Furi has the excuse of "Oh it wasn't bolded I wasn't serious" which I'm not sure I believe, it's rather ambiguous in applicability) but ehh, it's joke-vote shenanigans any way you look at it; albeit suspicious-looking ones.
Anyway, then Chaore unvotes Alice, which certainly makes sense because it was a really stupid wagon. But then, he doesn't stick a vote on anyone. It's still at the point where you hardly need a reason at all to vote someone; why not throw a vote at Carth or Furi for jumping on such a stupid wagon? Carth even said (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg317631#msg317631) it's stupid, and votes onto it regardless. Isn't that suspicious enough to warrant a vote when it's still D1 joke voting time anyway?
As soon as he's criticized for not voting, he throws the vote on the criticizer (Rou) and from what he says, it sure looks like he's accusing Rou of scum from it.
Now, at first glance, this doesn't seem too bad. But let's, for a moment, assume Chaore is scum. This means having Alice lynched would be a good thing (assuming Alice isn't scum). But, it's a wagon of jokevotes, started by a self-vote, no less. It's preposterous to think it'd ACTUALLY cause a lynch. So, instead; jump off the wagon, make yourself look town, and you aren't losing a possible lynch anyway! And once accused about it, jump on them for calling a pro-town action scummy,; maybe you'll even get a lynch out of that one! Although that last part could just be improvisation/defense. Or I'm thinking too hard.
Next, he jumps on a newb making newb mistakes (Yes, that was me, and yes, it was a ridiculously dumbass thing that I did, slightly surprised now that I wasn't attacked more about it), and although I really cannot blame him for it, he sticks to it as other cases continue to develop and mine goes pretty much unnoticed and useless. Unnoticed is what scum want to be, of course, so why change the vote? Especially considering the developing wagons don't really have great cases either. Let them get lynched on their own without supporting them; keeps scum suspicion low for yourself, mhmm?
At the end, when there's almost no time left at all before a no-lynch happens, Chaore goes and gives Zakeri the final nail in the coffin. It's not scummy to keep a no-lynch from happening, so it's a safe action; and it gives scum the townie lynch they want to have.
##Vote:Chaore
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I like the effort. I want to see a response from Chaore before I comment cause I have things I wanna say ^-^.
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At the end, when there's almost no time left at all before a no-lynch happens, Chaore goes and gives Zakeri the final nail in the coffin. It's not scummy to keep a no-lynch from happening, so it's a safe action; and it gives scum the townie lynch they want to have.
This implies Zent is scum with Chaore. If Zent is a townie, then scum would have no reason to hammer since all three options (nolynch, townZak lynch, townZent lynch) favor them. The hammer is a null tell until we get Zent's flip imo.
But I do agree that the way Chaore went about his vote on you was kind of odd (voting then doing nothing until he gets a chance to hammer, etc)
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Hmm, Furien and UK seem to be antagonizing each other a little too conveniently for my tastes, and it makes me suspect things... Like, oh, two scum trying to keep people on their toes and move their suspicions elsewhere while trying to ignore the scripted (if they're both scum, that is) banter. Of course, this is a rather poor way to judge things, so I think I'll keep my vote off of both of them until better and larger larger cases are made on at least one of them (which might influence my vote on a scum... or not, let's see if anyone thinks it's a bad idea).
Chaore... Hum, his actions on Day 1 with that last-minute voteswitch were kind of funky, of course, one could also chalk it up to him thinking carefully in the shadows and changing his mind at the last minute, but it turned out Zak was town and he got himself hung, but the way things were going, there could have easily been a no-lynch or me dying instead of Zak (no lynch looking more likely, we would have been dead even, if Chaore had voted for me). Of course, if huh what is right and the two of us are playing everyone, who would you take out first?
Let's say, if I voted for Chaore, does that sound like a town trying to weed out a scum, or a scum playing distraction games by voting for a fellow scumsman? If it's the first, perhaps it's wise to get enough votes to hang Chaore. Either way, both of our votes helped lead to the death of a townie, so use your own discretion...
The others, I can't tell one way or the other right now, although UK does bring up some interesting points on Alice, and to me, he hasn't seemed to be very involved in anything, a lurking scum? Or a cautious-as-hell town? Sadly, there's not enough evidence... and we all know what happened to Zakeri when I and others voted without too much of it.
Looks like there's only one solution...
##Vote: Chaore
Until evidence to the contrary pops up.
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Anyway, then Chaore unvotes Alice, which certainly makes sense because it was a really stupid wagon. But then, he doesn't stick a vote on anyone. It's still at the point where you hardly need a reason at all to vote someone; why not throw a vote at Carth or Furi for jumping on such a stupid wagon? Carth even said (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg317631#msg317631) it's stupid, and votes onto it regardless. Isn't that suspicious enough to warrant a vote when it's still D1 joke voting time anyway?
I think Rou put this best himself when he had the same exact case. It's not exactly scummy to avoid sending a vote anywhere, just TERRIBLE TERRIBLE PLAY. Unless you're suggesting both Carth and Furi are also scum who I'm trying to avoid starting a wagon on, you've got nothing. Even then, you're suggesting two people as scum so surely that you're convicting someone else of being scum- without knowing if they're scum or not.
If they're town, It really is odd I avoided an easy wagon on those two given they're in quite a predicament there! I imagine scum would be all over a wagon based on alice's self vote.
TLDR; Same defense I used against Rou still applies because it's the SAME THING HE ASKED. Check one for copying Rou's case (Which you'd see even if you ISO'd me.)
Now, at first glance, this doesn't seem too bad. But let's, for a moment, assume Chaore is scum. This means having Alice lynched would be a good thing (assuming Alice isn't scum). But, it's a wagon of jokevotes, started by a self-vote, no less. It's preposterous to think it'd ACTUALLY cause a lynch. So, instead; jump off the wagon, make yourself look town, and you aren't losing a possible lynch anyway! And once accused about it, jump on them for calling a pro-town action scummy,; maybe you'll even get a lynch out of that one! Although that last part could just be improvisation/defense. Or I'm thinking too hard.
Latter. The best way to trip up when thinking is overthink yourself- I'M HUMAN Neo, I don't think things ahead in a masterful plan 12 steps ahead. At that, so you're saying I did it solely to look townie- Why the fuck would I need to do that? If I truely didn't think there was a chance for it to occur I'd not worry about it at -all-. I'm on from a joke vote, NO ONE is going to touch me over it. I don't need to worry about looking town at that point.
However, if it does look like it MAY go to a lynch- why make the chance harder? I mean, no one is going to blame me for happening to be on with a joke vote. As scum, I don't have a good motive to stop a lynch, unless of course, the lynch is scum. Also go ahead and claim Alice is scum, I wouldn't blame you at current, but then again you're so sure you're convicting someone else instead.
Once again, Something from ROU'S case, which is again, dead.
Next, he jumps on a newb making newb mistakes (Yes, that was me, and yes, it was a ridiculously dumbass thing that I did, slightly surprised now that I wasn't attacked more about it), and although I really cannot blame him for it, he sticks to it as other cases continue to develop and mine goes pretty much unnoticed and useless. Unnoticed is what scum want to be, of course, so why change the vote? Especially considering the developing wagons don't really have great cases either. Let them get lynched on their own without supporting them; keeps scum suspicion low for yourself, mhmm?
...are you serious, Neo? You say you can't blame me for it then try to blame me for it? Not supporting a wagon isn't a reason to call me scum. I mean...seriously. You even SAY there wasn't a good reason for me to change to the other wagons. How is this making me scum? It's a justified action and is not slanted in either way. Given you probably stopped thinking here that you'd need to prove anything, as surely the outdated case that was answered would carry your conviction through enough to this point.
the end, when there's almost no time left at all before a no-lynch happens, Chaore goes and gives Zakeri the final nail in the coffin. It's not scummy to keep a no-lynch from happening, so it's a safe action; and it gives scum the townie lynch they want to have.
I notice no one has tried to nail me for this for the exact reason you said, this isn't scummy so much as ensuring a damn lynch. As much you've gotten out of it as that I prefered a Zak lynch to a Zent lynch, which, even with a scum flip on Zent, isn't exactly a tell in itself for the reason there is no reason to believe ONLY SCUM WOULD PREFER A ZAK LYNCH. Especially since you're on that wagon, go ahead, I dare you to say the only way I'd have made that choice is as scum.
So let me get your case straight here. HALF of this is stuff on my unvote Rou essentially asked already and got answers from, which he then UNVOTED for. The other half aren't even actual scum tells and mostly work better with the idea I'm already judged scum. Well hey, I can say this is a crappy reason to vote me, but go ahead if you think you know better.
Ninja Zent:
I.
...
I've already adressed the -faintest- reasoning as to why the fuck you're voting me with the bit on the voting Zak, so I'll assume I've responded to you well enough I can simply go get a fucking drink on this one.
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Zent's latest post is terrible. That's all there is to it. Not only does it continue the strain of diplomacy and "Well, this could be true but maybe it's not I don't know maybe I should just who knows"
Why all the self doubt?
But, that's not the worst part. The fact of the matter is, he's been accused of being a buddy with Chaore. So his response is basically to bus him as the wagon is building (Note, the language assumes both Zent and Chaore scum, which I am not necessarily sold on, merely putting out a hypothetical)
Finally, most of his post is parroting everyone else and adding self doubt. It's overall just...not good.
Chaore's response basically covers everything I would have said in response to Serela's case and didn't want to since I saw no reason to give Cha an out. I'll add that "Assume this player is scum" arguments are basically circular reasoning and for the most part can be disregarded if I understand it correctly.
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I did not accuse Zent of being Chaore's buddy (I don't think Chaore is scum so yeah). I said that Neo's case about the hammervote is only incriminating if they are.
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I did not accuse Zent of being Chaore's buddy (I don't think Chaore is scum so yeah). I said that Neo's case about the hammervote is only incriminating if they are.
Right, that was what I was referring to. Sorry that wasn't clear. Either way, I think Zent partially responded to that line of thought, possibly.
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Hmm, crud... yeah, perhaps an assumption on people thinking of buddying with Chaore is part of this dilemma... seems even when I think I'm trying something different... hmm. As for parroting, yeah, sure, that's true, but when I think someone else can say things better than I can, that's usually how I take things. Unwise, bad playstyle, or both? Anyway, in light of this abject stupidity of mine, and evidence to the contrary on my vote:
##Unvote: Chaore
##Vote: ...
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"..." is not an actual player. Are you trying to make it look like you're using your vote when you aren't or something?
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The response to unvote Chaore when called out on the potential to be bussing him does not give good vibes.
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Huh: Just cancelling my vote and I don't have anyone to think of to replace it... which probably means yes.
UK: So, what, should I put my vote back on Chaore then? As for the self-doubt, I'm just having a real hard time picking people to lynchvote.
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I want you to stop being scum >=[
But more seriously, it would reflect better on you if you took a firm stance and stood up for it. Not that that would help as much now since you've done so much scummy, but it's possible to reverse reads by getting your act together.
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Okay, I'm semi-sane now.
##Unvote
Apologies for being completely out of order earlier. Today has not been a good day for me.
Anyway, NeoSerela...reguritates my D1 case on Chaore and throws in 'He voted me rather then the bandwagons WHICH MUST BE SCUMMY!' which makes zero sense, and the hammer point which is a nulltell unless Zent flips scum.
Zent, on that note, proceeds to first copy the point I made about Furienify and UK's bickering, then votes Chaore on the case of HE DIDN'T HAMMER ZENT YESTERDAY. And then UNVOTES ON DEMAND.
Neo's case is enough of a copy to raise an eyebrow, especially since like Furienify he sort of fell into the background yesterday, while Zentillion's point is so amazingly out there that I can't come up with a logical response. Jumping on Chaore immediately after Neo did makes me wonder if in the end we've managed to get 2 new players as scum...but that's thinking too hard right now.
##Vote: NeoSerela
There are plenty of mistakes that have been made already in this game that aren't scummy. Copying someone else's case in an attempt to look like you're contributing is not one of them.
-
As a preface, I'm not asking sarcastically or rudely or anything:
Rou, what makes Serela a better lynch than Zent?
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There are plenty of mistakes that have been made already in this game that aren't scummy. Copying someone else's case in an attempt to look like you're contributing is not one of them.
I did?
...oops. Man, I just can't manage to do things right today.
There is one upside though. Zent's looking worse every minute. Before I was giving him the benefit of the doubt with him being new and all, but... seriously, what the hell?
Anyway, ##Unvote:Chaore. Sorry about all that, then. I'm keeping my eye on Zent from now on, though.
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##Unvote:Chaore
Bleh, forgot the bold.
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... What's with all the people voting Chaore and then unvoting him when prompted?
Still content with my vote on Serela, who has only made himself worse after I voted.
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On second thought, what Rou said about there possibly being two newbies as scum and goes somewhat well with the two votes and then unvotes on Chaore.
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I do posit the same question I asked Rou to you, HW. What makes Serela better than Zent?
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My vote on Serela was mainly an attempt to get new discussion going since he slipped under the radar during the latter half of D1, but after the recent events I feel like he's a bit better of a choice than Zent. To be honest, I'm starting to feel that Zent is a really, really clueless townie, especially because of his really odd vote on Chaore where his reasoning had no real merit at all (hadn't I already posted why the hammer was a nulltell at that point?). I don't consider him to be 100% innocent, but I'm not as suspicious of him as I was D1.
Speaking of my vote on Serela, he still hasn't really given a straight answer to why he voted Zakeri at the time he voted (or anything else in that post, really), which was one of my main reasons for voting him in the first place.
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Serela is off and should probably be ISO'd by me sometime tonight. The unvote really did bug me...
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How many people have you ISO'd so far, seriously?
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Speaking of my vote on Serela, he still hasn't really given a straight answer to why he voted Zakeri at the time he voted (or anything else in that post, really), which was one of my main reasons for voting him in the first place.
When I first voted Zakeri I pretty much was just "ehh this is better then a jokevote" and then went to read the thread over and make a serious vote. Then, afterwards, I realized that the serious vote I wanted to make actually was Zakeri (which was kind of a bad thing because of how that vote originally came out), but... it's better to vote the person I suspect most then do someone else purely to look better, right? The point is to catch scum.
Serela is off and should probably be ISO'd by me sometime tonight. The unvote really did bug me...
The Chaore unvote? He pretty much beat down my whole case, so I didn't see much of a reason to keep it. I didn't know I had basically redone different cases on him in the first place.
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I didn't know I had basically redone different cases on him in the first place.
A better way to word this is "brought up old cases again". "redone different cases" signifies something a little different.
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It's hard to explain. It was the feeling of the unvote. But I really should just do an ISO on you to see where it leads.
@HW: Three.
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Auuugh, I don't think I'm up to all of this... look at just how much disaster I'm bringing to myself in this game... perhaps mafia's just not my thing.
Still, perhaps... screw logic. I'm basing my vote on how the tables seem to be turning, and they are turning on one person besides myself. If I get hung tonight for taking this route, so be it. I shoulda stuck to word games like a good little boy.
##Vote: NeoSerela
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Zent's vote on Serela seems like an attempt to space the two apart after what I just said about them being teamed up. Ugh.
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Still, perhaps... screw logic. I'm basing my vote on how the tables seem to be turning, and they are turning on one person besides myself.
what
No seriously, what? I'm not terribly surprised that I'm getting voted, but the person voting me is saying outright that they're doing it not for logic, but just because other people are suspicious. What.
I'm starting to think Zent couldn't be scum just because of how badly he's playing. If he had scumbuddies talking to him, they'd probably rip his head off. Of course, he might not even be talking to them, or they might just be thinking "he's a lost cause" at this point.
Either way, I'd much rather have my vote on him then just sitting unused. Because, what? ##Vote:Zentillion
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Rou, what makes Serela a better lynch than Zent?
His case sounded a lot more genuine and a lot less hurrrandom than Zent's - that is, it sounded more legible and thought out. Therefore I saw it more likely to be bad scum than bad Town.
Aaaaaand we have ANOTHER person who removes their vote on Chaore after pressure emerges. Then jumps on Neo while saying Neo is probably dumb Town. Yeah, definitely happy with my vote now.
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EBWOP: Jumps on ZENT while saying ZENT is dumb Town. Stupid hasty responses to ninja posts.
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So, because Serela makes more sense he's more likely to be scum?
That's...odd to say the least. Am I misunderstanding?
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ITT MotK's apparently infamously dumb town continues to live up to it's name.
Let's have a vote count.
Roukanken(1): Chaore
NeoSerela(3): huh♥♪!?what, Roukanken, Zentillion
Alice(1): Carthrat
Zentillion(2): UncertainKitten, NeoSerela
I double checked, so I'm pretty sure I didn't make a mistake; but please bring it to light if I did. A vote miscount wouldn't be good.
[edible]Looks good to me. PS, you have ~46 hours remaining.[/edible]
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OMG SERELA IS SCUM HE POSTED A VOTECOUNT GODDAMMIT!
Unvote Vote Serela totally!
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I'll probably need a replacement before I embarrass myself any further at this point, really. Sorry for being so troublesome.
UK-ninja: Nah, more like I'm picking at straws for my vote + jumping on what looks like a starting bandwagon + stopping my indecisiveness by looking at the most acceptable at this point target. Though that's almost as horrible as voting because he makes more sense than I am.
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So, because Serela makes more sense he's more likely to be scum?
That's...odd to say the least. Am I misunderstanding?
It's more that he's therefore less likely to be dumb Town. >_>
Zentillion asking for replacement is AAAAAAAAA
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Honestly, the replacement request is making me reconsider my vote. Trouble is I'm not sure how often scum replace out in frustration.
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Zentillion won't be replaced. Carry on.
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Pah, forget replacement, I'm staying until I'm lynched.
I'm going to stay consistent and therefore my vote remains unchanged. Sorry, NeoSerela.
...DAMMIT STOP NINJAING. And what Edible said.
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Okay, so due to something happening this week that wasn't going to happen until next I'll be less active (hence me not posting at all yesterday). For those of you that have been talking to me about stuff in private, no this "something" is not a bad thing; it's actually a very good thing and I'm really excited that it happened a week sooner than I expected. :D I won't elaborate any more than that because it's not related to this game.
Anyway, I haven't gotten around to rereading the thread yet, but I have caught up/read all of D2. Um...I'm really not sure what to say. I think my brain fizzled out the sixth time I went "wait what." I'm starting to think that I was being too easy on the newbies. Recent posts are just...There are no words. I'd like to reread the thread with this in mind before saying anymore. I'll try my best to finish my reread tonight, but I'm going to be pretty busy, so I'm not making any promises.
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After careful consideration, I've decided that I'm not going to continue helping until UK either dies or apologizes for her attitude. This comes as late as it does because I spent a very long time simply not wanting to go anywhere near this thread out of disgust.
Apologies to Edible for basically ruining a pretty neat role.
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Also in before someone (probably UK out of spiteful self-defense) tells me this is anti-town, I know it's anti-town, I'm actually deriving a bit of pleasure from the fact that I'm acting in an anti-town manner and there isn't a damn thing anyone that's not Edible can do about it since I'm already dead.
Whee!
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(probably UK out of spiteful self-defense)
Spent a few minutes cooling down, and I want to retract this statement, as it's nothing more than needless antagonization. Sorry about that.
Everything else I've said still stands, however.
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No Alice post yet? Also where is Kefit? It has been some time already. Alice already looks scummy, lurking only makes it worse. Kefit has made one real post in this entire game ffs, which featured jumping on the Zakwagon and pointing a few fingers at Kilga without really going all the way. I'd lynch Alice. I'd lynch Kefit. I'd lynch them over most of the game. LynchAllLurkers! At least Zent is posting though what he is posting is pretty much a willful desire to do everything scummy he possibly can (see: fair-weather voting, not voting to catch scum, loudly declaring he's taking strategies to stay alive, etc). I'd lynch him too. That's three people I'd lynch, in exactly that order.
This is in fact really easy guys, we must lynch lurkers. Must. Not a point really up for debate, I think. Search your hearts. You know it to be true. People coast on lurking in many games. They are very often scum! It's a strategy that works because other people inevitably say stupid things that draw attention to them!
My point is that by my earlier definition, Furienify and Zentillion were BOTH easy targets. Why, then, did Zentillion's wagon start flying ahead while Furienify stayed still? Therefore it's highly unlikely that Zent's advancing case wasn't scum-oriented.
Does that work in terms of why I'm not convinced by the Zent case?
If we had flips in hand that showed Zent was town I would be nodding along to this kind of logic most likely, but we don't so I'm not. I don't really agree that because Serela sounds smarter he/she is somehow more scummy as a result, not here.
Having seen it happen a hundred times before in a hundred slightly different ways I have realized I can take nothing from the UK/Rou spat, will not even bother trying to read it.
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Carth...raises an embarrassingly good point. Why haven't Kefit/Alice been prodded for inactivity?
On that note, Furienify has shut up again. I'm getting really irritated at how these players have to be prodded in order to produce. If we actually ARE up against a Lurker Mafia right now, I'm going to feel cheated for lack of a better word.
Kilga: I overreacted to UK, I'll admit. I was feeling pretty miserable when it came up. The fault is probably mine, mostly, since everyone else seems fine with UK's behaviour thus far. >_>
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That's a good question. Where are Kefit and Alice? if they are scum, they may be lurking because all the focus seems to be on me and my shitty performance and they don't need to do anything. Now the dumbass question - if all three of us are scum, wouldn't they at least try to post stuff that puts doubt that I'm scum (if NeoSerela is right, though, the other scum have given up on me and this question is moot)?
Perhaps I need to reconsider my vote and look at them, but if i change my vote, I'll be flip-flopping again. Sigh.
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Before I respond to the three posts under Kilga's tirade, I only have 12 words for you, Kilga.
Hope the door doesn't hit your ass on the way out, Kilga.
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Nothing to really reply to except that I mostly agree with the Kefit/Alice please post attitude.
Oh, right, to elaborate on my recalcitrance to capitulate to our dear Kilga's desire. He's trying to force a compulsory apology for things I don't feel are wrong. If I felt they were wrong, I would have apologized already. I did apologize to Rou for generally making his mood worse yesterday, but is there anything else I feel the need to apologize for? Fuck no. So, Kilga, and I'm sure you'll find this rude, but honestly, your attempts to force my compliance are rather rude in their own right.
Kilga, take your moral high ground, and shove it.
WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM!?
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Oh, right.
##Unvote, Vote Alice
I love how the posts between mine and Carth's all talk about how great Alice is for a lynch but seem to lack votes in that direction. I just noticed Carth is already voting Alice. Is anyone else who agrees planning to do so?
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If I can be a little convinced we're looking at a mafia of lurkers here, sure, I'll vote for Alice. Though I want to stick with NeoSerela to stay consistent, there's so muck flak for my vote that perhaps changing is a smart choice. I do wonder what he thinks about Alice... if I switched my vote, would he be willing to do the same?
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Er, a little more convinced we're looking at a lurkmafia.
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Nah, I had an ISO on Alice. I'm not voting him just cause he's lurking.
Honestly, Zent, I'm already having second thoughts about going for an Alice lynch and just securing yours. But I want to see where this Alice thing goes.
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I see...
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Why haven't Kefit/Alice been prodded for inactivity?
Whoops ;_;
It has been done.
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UK: No point in voting if they're on course for getting modkilled anyway.
And I'm pretty sure there was a more polite way you could have responded to Kilga. >_>
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There probably was. Just as there was a more polite way for him to not try to be some moral god of goodness.
But he chose not to use it so I chose not to use it.
And plus it was about time I got to use "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM!" given how long I've been using Kamina glass'd avatars.
At any rate, I highly doubt Alice will let himself be modkilled.
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Until they get modkilled, they're lurkers and worthy of voting. If they die to it, great, we can do that thing where we change our votes, right?
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And if they do it with about 3 horus left in the day? >_>
But eh, whatever.
##Unvote
Vote: Kefit
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Mod, what happens when people are modkilled?
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Why Kefit over Alice, Rou?
(Again, not asking to be argumentative, just trying to figure out your motivations, and choosing to vote one player over another and explaining why is a pretty good way to determine it)
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You know some days I should just not wake up.
@Kilga: Screw you. Seriously. Screw you straight up the ass. That's really all there is to say on the matter.
@Zent and Neo: I never touched your fest last night but you're both pushing the limits I can believe you're -really- that stupid. That said, I'd rather see if either one of you are town before I just say off both of you on that mess, so I can tell if it's an attempt to wagon and then a bus because one of you looks smashed or...
@Carth: NICE DEFLECTION BRO. In general your attitude alone has taken a decent post and -made me god damn worry-. Given I have my suspicions about Alive, this is just... Amazing. Well done.
Keeping vote on Rou because for the life of me I find that I can't properly guess Zent/Neo from that last bit without seriously knowing what they are. I'm also not switching over a lurking charge of all things, and my case on Alice if you could call it is his nice distraction at the end of Day 1. Fine with Zent, Neo, Alice, or Kefit getting lynched and I shouldn'tve have this many people fine for lynching and WHAT IS WRONG WITH ALL OF YOU.
:timeporpoiseisnotamused:
And you know what, if you think this is just another 'Everyone is an idiot post' like you lynched zak for, Tell me right damn well if you disagree with that sentiment. As Carth says, Search your heart, you know it to be true.
I need some damn breakfast then I'll try and be productive instead of yelling like a mad man.
Ninja Rou: You know. Shouldn't Kefit be MODKILLED by now?
Actually. Yeah. His last post was the -21st-. It is now the -25th-.
Same with Alice. 22nd.
Edible. You're a terrible Game mod.
Ninja UK: Only one post compared to Alice's 3 or 4, really.
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I was asking Rou. Generally answering questions for other people spoils the genuine reaction they'd have, which is why I usually hold back responses until a target has responded, such as with the Serela case on you.
Also, by the rules, Alice and Kefit have 24 hours to respond to the prod PM. So while Edible took far too long to send them out, Alice and Kefit do have the right to the 24 hours after the prod PM to respond, given how the rule is phrased.
Which is probably for the better since 2 modkills can very badly destablize a game.
That said, I want them to post. ASAP.
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Fair enough. Blame me for being hasty to answer.
Also, True. Emphasize the 'Edible you're terrible at this' then.
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Anyway, deadline update. By my calculations we have 30 hours left. I'm tempted to ask for an extension if Alice and Kefit don't show up within the next 12 hours since we' might have to react to modkills and revote and such.
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Mmm, very well then.
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@Chaore: I deflected what now? I thought I'd been pretty nice this game, actually. Not really inclined to buy 'attitude' on me, there are clearly far worse offenders and I am struggling to ignore it, since everyone seems to be doing it and I can't call scum/town just on that.
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You certainly moved everything to Alice/Kefit, if for good reasons. I'm not sure what to make of that yet, but I'm certainly making note of that.
And in all honesty your kind of wit is... Just plain unnerving and unusual for some reason. I'm honestly not sure and how you word thing is just sending me off guard. There is seriously just something about those posts.
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Actually, I will say this. I'm not doing this primarily to be the moral high ground guy (there is some of that mixed in, but it's not the only reason), I'm doing this because I genuinely don't want to play anymore. This particular game is Simply Not Fun Anymore. It's basically the same situation as Bardiche in My-HiME Mafia, except I don't have to ask for a modkill since I'm already dead. If Chaore wishes to hate me because I don't want to play a game I don't find fun, then so be it, though I ask some reconsideration.
Rest of what I want to say can be left for postgame.
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@Kilga: That makes a bit more sense, and put like that, I honestly can not disagree for obvious reasons. Go ahead and enjoy the rest of the game off. Just don't be quite as big of a dick next time you opt out, in all complete honesty.
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Chaore: Do you actually believe Rou is more likely to be scum than Alice, or even Zent? I would call attention to this-
Keeping vote on Rou because for the life of me I find that I can't properly guess Zent/Neo from that last bit without seriously knowing what they are.
-which makes it seem like you don't think Rou is as likely scum as certain others in our group.
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Also I guess neither of you have any particular reason to believe me, but I had a conversation with Pesco last night that I will be posting postgame that will demonstrate that these are my genuine feelings (unless you think Pesco's going to lie to cover for me, in which case ???), so it will eventually come.
Ninja'd by Chaore: I have acted in no worse a fashion than I felt was demonstrated in this topic.
Also also I'll throw in one last message and say I think Rat is pretty much dead-on about everything, though I still think Roukan deserves some investigation. My vote would be on Alice at this point if I had one.
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I'm sure I'll have some witty rejoinders for your post game feelings, Kilga. Because it's getting unfun for me too. I don't get all sarcastic because I feel like being a bitch. I get all sarcastic when I'm sick of things going the way they do. But, whatever, postgame, etc.
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Roukanken(1): Chaore
NeoSerela(2): huh♥♪!?what, Zentillion
Alice Margatroid(2): Carthrat, UncertainKitten
Zentillion(1): NeoSerela
Kefit(1): Roukanken
Alice and Kefit had 24 hours to post starting from the beginning of Day 2. ~36 hours passed before their prod. Sorry.
@Carthrat: Should a modkill become necessary, the flip will show at the end of the day.
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Wow, Chaore. Antagonizing, much?
I'm not too sure if I like the idea of exchanging a vote for somebody who I actually feel is scummy for a vote on somebody who has a 50% chance of being scum but we can't tell because they're lurking. Also possibly overly paranoid, but Carthrat's suggestion to lynch lurkers instead could easily be ruse if one of the two players (or both?) who had more votes on them were scum.
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Oh. That latter half only counts if Rat is scum too, obviously.
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How does Alice have a 50% chance of being scum? Taking raw chances, and assuming 3 scum, he has a 3/13 chance of being scum.
But, when you consider his behavior when he was posting in addition to the lurking, it looks worse. Also, lynching lurkers actually isn't bad play, it's just I prefer to lynch people who are being actively scummy. But, I did see merit in the Alice case so I'm willing to support it.
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I'm dumb and don't know how to statistic properly :3c
But I mean that there's no real evidence towards him being scum beyond lurking and it feels like taking a gamble to me.
What was wrong with his behavior while he was posting? I missed this.
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I am going to bed, that is two people now who are insinuating that I might not be genuine in wanting lurkers lynched, or indeed Alice lynched, which is odd since I have been voting him since the start of today.
But that said, I fail to see how bringing up a new direction at this point is somehow instantly suspicious as it is.
Lurkers are generally worth lynching. They are very subtle in their machinations, since they don't actually do much one can point to as suspicious. That is, as I said, why lurking works. Town can do it, scum tends to do it more. Unless you have a good reason not to vote one, I'd suggest not hesitating. Zent's pretty bad but lurking is kinda worse.
Alice failed throughout day 1, didn't try to push the case he ostensibly had a vote on. Claimed he wanted to lynch Zent but didn't bother voting for him at the end and left someone else to decide first, I hate on the lack of pro-active voting. Rambled lots during the day, it was mostly chaff and commentary.
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I disagree in general with Carth's assessment that pure lurking is worse then Zent's posting. However, coupled with Alice's posts, which are cased in my ISO, HW, I could definitely see Alice being a scummy lurker.
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Here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg321685#msg321685) is said ISO.
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Rat, what's your take on Kefit?
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Chaore: Do you actually believe Rou is more likely to be scum than Alice, or even Zent? I would call attention to this-
-which makes it seem like you don't think Rou is as likely scum as certain others in our group.
In all complete honesty. Yes.
I will repeat what we have on Alice. 3 days not here and a bit of oddity at the end of day 1. Lurking I will honestly say is not scum specific, LALU or not, and I can't in honesty hold the oddity at the end of Day 1 very high. It's suspicious but I can't outright call it scummy. It's the same reason I'm not voting K4U for her oddities, they look odd but they're NOT definite tells. I can't in good conscience find myself making a case for that.
Zent is a moron. This is not Town or Scum specific, and really everything he HAS done last night and the day before could SERIOUSLY go both ways. Even with flips I can not in good conscience say I see him specifically scummy or town. He has acted like stupid scum but he has acted like stupid town and it makes my -head hurt-.
Neo is similarily pretty damn new and bad cases aren't exactly town specific. While he does look positively worse and more definable because he is trying to act smart, I do have to hold him to a regard of mistakes. Fine with saying he is scum, but I'd rather see Rou's flip first.
Comparatively, I'd like to say I have a far stronger case on rou what with how he has been continously trying to dodge straight out of the spotlight when it -matters-. I can't for the life of me say I see town looking out for his Keister instead of looking for Scum, or continuing a case he pretty much switched to out of looking out for his keister instead of looking for -anything- new.
The 'because I can't make head or tails of Neo is me basically saying I haven't had my looks changed at -all- despite all this, because it makes no sense unless you try and force roles on them. Without definite info I seriously can't derive shit from that mess.
As such, I do seriously think there is something a bit stronger about Rou compared to Alice. I didn't vote Alice at the start of the day because I didn't think what I still have is tangibly very good. I'm absolutely fine with an Alice lynch, and -really- I get the lurking charge, but it feels like I'm dropping to a weaker case.
Ninja Huhwhat: I was completely out of line but frankly, I feel like I needed that out of my system before I even thought logically. Sorry about that.
Ninja Carth: Alright. Fine.
##Unvote, ##Vote: Alice Margatroid.
I've got no good reason to not vote Alice as I can't seriously say there isn't something odd about him. There... Really is no good reason to say he IS town and a lynch should be avoided.
Ninja HuhwhatSEQUEL: He just went to bed, apparently.
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UK: He was the worse lurker, imo. I only remember him making one post yesterday, and that was to jump on the Zak wagon.
Also, as hypocritical as this is given how I acted yesterday, I really think we need to cut to the vitriol here. Take a time out and have a group hug or something.
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Worse lurker, true. But does that make him worse overall? Honestly, I'm voting Alice not just for lurking, but because he also had pretty bad content when he was here.
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Kefit's only post was a bandwagon jump and a small case on Kilga based on meta, which isn't exactly good. Alice is really iffy though.
Regardless, I still don't feel that great about lynching either over two people we already have decent cases on. Can't seem to shake off the feeling it's a distraction.
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Also, as hypocritical as this is given how I acted yesterday, I really think we need to cut to the vitriol here. Take a time out and have a group hug or something.
But! Rou! Who do we hug.
Regardless, I still don't feel that great about lynching either over two people we already have decent cases on. Can't seem to shake off the feeling it's a distraction.
I've pointed this out as well. It really means nothing until we know what it's a distraction to or from.
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But! Rou! Who do we hug.
Everyone. Just because we want the scumteam to die doesn't mean we don't love them! :3
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Vote: Rou for trying to lure us into a false sense of security.
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I'm here I'm here. Sorry, I've been really busy the past couple of days. Weekends tend to be the busiest time for me specifically because I take care of all my school obligations during the week so that I am unfettered to devote my weekends entirely to social outings.
Honestly guys I'm a bit lost. This day has seen giant shifts from UK vs Rou to Zent and Serela openly trying to train each other to "omg the only choice is lurker genocide." That last change is particularly baffling - with one post from Rat, almost every player dropped the Zent and Serela case entirely to chase after the crap shoot of lurker lynches.
Anyway, I need some time to reread the thread and try to put something together in my head. The antagonism and lack of focus made that somewhat difficult in my catch-up read.
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I need to reread the thread as well. But for now, I think I'm gonna ##Unvote; looking back, it was more of a OMGUS then anything else. I don't seriously think Zent is scum (although I'd go for the idea), and lynching a dumbtown is a waste of time. Even if it's really dumb town. Seriously, Zent went "okay I'm not going to use logic and just going to vote Serela because people are suspicious of that person"; and that's without inferring, it's pretty much exactly what he said.
I'm not going to just throw a vote down on Alice for lurking (although the lurklurk and encouraging a L-2 wagon without even voting for it looks pretty scummy), I'd rather wait to see Alice's response post first. Or, the lack of response post, and subsequent modkill.
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iirc Alice didn't actually encourage a L-2 wagon, he only said he preferred it over Zak. But I haven't read that post in a while so yeah
Why are you encouraging a modkill? We won't know Alice's flip until the end of the day, and if he flips town, then the modkill works against us.
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The only reason you guys are having to prod me for content at this point is because I was joining everyone else a few minutes back and just taking a break from the game for a day to cool down. Which is great. I don't see why you guys get so bothered by this stuff, it's just Mafia. I figured we're all allowed our fair share of paranoia and mistrust and negativity, since that's what the game's about.
That said, I'm comfortable lynching lurkers, but it doesn't seem like a very effective tactic. Can't we find scum by looking at the participants? Wouldn't our chances and cases be stronger then? If I'd have to vote, I'd agree with UK (!) here - lack of content. But for now I want to take a look at Neo for a bit.
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iirc Alice didn't actually encourage a L-2 wagon, he only said he preferred it over Zak. But I haven't read that post in a while so yeah
Why are you encouraging a modkill? We won't know Alice's flip until the end of the day, and if he flips town, then the modkill works against us.
Good point. Although the main point was he didn't actually do anything with his vote at the time where it could make a big difference; Whether Zak or Zent is lynched, that is. Especially considering that if Alice had votechanged to Zent, Zent would have been L-1, which IMO would have made it more likely for Alice to obtain his/her desired lynch.
And I'm not encouraging a modkill, I just said that I'd rather wait for a response post before throwing a vote onto Alice; and if there ISN'T a response post from Alice, that means there's a modkill, where my vote wouldn't matter anyway. So until Alice posts/is killed, I don't see a need to vote on him/her.
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First off, I'm gonna just ignore Rou v. UK. It's a giant wall of senseless muk. Come on guys, I thought we all promised to be good kids after the wonderment that was Himelander.
Anyway, I don't buy into the lurker hate. First off, because I am one of them (layl). Second off, because Alice and I are established lurkers, at least for the first day or two. But what I really find unsettling is the sudden way in which the lurker hate has come about. All it took was one vigorous post denouncing lurkers from Rat (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg322386#msg322386) for town to flip flop. In fact, Rat's stance here bugs me a lot, as it's a stark contrast from the rest of his posts this game.
Throughout d1, Rat forcefully chased after Zent (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318609#msg318609) for what seem largely like noobish mistakes. I think that Kilga put it best when he stated that the case against Zent relies upon Zent being a GENIUS CRIMINAL MASTERMIND (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318675#msg318675). The fact of the matter is, every game I have played in has had problems with town going after noob rather than scum players. Hell, every game I have played has been lost by town largely due to this mistake! We need to cut this out if we want to avoid yet another MotK Assured Scum Win(tm). If nothing else, Zent's helpless floundering, especially since the start of d2, only reinforces my belief that he is noob town. If he was scum then he would at least have some friends to help him out or to tell him what to do. He would have friends to tell him to just ignore all the senseless antagonism.
Moving on to d2, Rat starts by throwing a vote on to Alice while stating that:
Zent remains a solid contender for my vote today. Zilch has changed on that front.
The next couple of pages of posts are taken up Zent vs Serela, and see the emergence of a Serela wagon to compete with Zent's. Yet, with all this focus on Zent, Rat's next post (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg322386#msg322386) is a forceful call for lurker genocide. Why has he suddenly placed the Zent case by the side after everyone spent so much time discussing it? Why does Rat insist that lurker lynching is "not really up for debate?" What change on the Zent front prompted this shift?
As I said earlier, I don't buy that lurking caused this shift, especially on the part of established d1 and d2 lurkers. But something else DID change between Rat's two posts: a forceful wagon on Serela emerged. Rat forcing a change of subject is the perfect means to subtly deconstruct this wagon, even if it means giving his dubious Zent case a bit of slack. Besides, he can always come back to Zent later if he needs to, as he pointed out himself!
This interpretation relies on Serela and Rat being connected in some way, most likely with both being scum. And you know what? I'm comfortable with Serela's scumminess. Sure, like Zent, some of his play can be excused on the basis of noobishness. But he is far more collected and composed with his posts and movements. He lacks the floundering that is characteristic of a helpless town noob thrown alone in front of a highly antagonistic panel of scum hunters. I cannot grant Serela pardon in my mind in the same way I have Zent.
My heart tells me to ##Vote: Rat. I recognize that this game needs hammers if town wants to get anywhere, so barring any major developments I will remain open to switching to Serela if needed to assure a lynch for the day.
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This interpretation relies on Serela and Rat being connected in some way, most likely with both being scum. And you know what? I'm comfortable with Serela's scumminess. Sure, like Zent, some of his play can be excused on the basis of noobishness. But he is far more collected and composed with his posts and movements. He lacks the floundering that is characteristic of a helpless town noob thrown alone in front of a highly antagonistic panel of scum hunters. I cannot grant Serela pardon in my mind in the same way I have Zent.[/quote]
So, being smarter then the average newbie is reason to label me as scum? I understand why I'm not granted pardon because of it it, but it's most of the reason you're accusing me of scumminess in the first place.
The rest of your reasoning for me being scum is that Rat changed the subject and managed to stop a growing wagon on me. Of course, this doesn't apply unless we assume both Rat and I are scum, and as I said; the rest of your case on me is just "better then the average noob".
Heck, even I'm surprised my wagon was dismissed so quickly the moment Rat becomes HITLER OF LURKERS, and how quickly everyone jumped on this lurker genocide thing.
I do think it's a bit strange how Rat completely turned onto this new thing after being so vigorously ZENT MUST DIE, but then again, just beforehand it was pretty much established that Zent is a ridiculously dumb player at the moment, and certainly doesn't seem to have scumbuddies helping him in any way. Plus the fact he can always come back to Zent later if he needs to, as he pointed out himself!
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Err, that first paragraph is missing a
. As you can see by the
at the end. It's the semifinal paragraph of Kefit's post, as you can see.
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aslkdgjkalfgsdf and then I derply put [/quote] in and make a Quotebox appear
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Hohum.
##Unvote
##Vote: Alice
Suspicious lack of activity in the latter half of Day 1 except to get Zak, who turned out to be a townie, lynched.
Suspicious lack of activity for all of Day 2 so far, unless he makes his case now that he's been poked.
Appears to be suspect by/for a number of people.
And trying to quell the illogical me vs NeoSerela thing for our sanity.
Though, really, I should just get lynched on account of my crappy playing and focusing on Alice means more of me. :V
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Oh wow. So today I've been convinced to move from my vote on Carth, to Furienify, to Neo, to Kefit, and now I'm considering going back to Carth again.
...Aw, screw it. My heart said Carth at the start of the day for his jumping on the easy target yesterday. Kefit's post just gave my head a good reason to do the same thing. I didn't notice how drastically said easy target fell into the background for no adequately explained reason, and now it's been pointed out I'm willing to, well, go back where I started. T_T
##Unvote, Vote: Carthrat
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NeoSerela(1): huh♥♪!?what
Alice Margatroid(4): Carthrat, UncertainKitten, Chaore, Zentillion
Carthrat(2): Kefit, Roukanken
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. You have ~24 hours remaining.
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Whee, time to filter through several pages of fairly horrible reasoning. How charming.
FWIW, the lurking is a valid charge against me. Being on the Zakeri wagon, which I was about to step off of until Zakeri decided to go suicidal (at which point I wasn't going to argue with him because come the hell on, seriously.), not to mention for which several people have much worse reasons than myself for being on, is not.
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Uhhh, you weren't on the Zak wagon. You were voting Furien. Last I checked you never even said anything about supporting the Zak wagon during the last few hours of the day.
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Whee, time to filter through several pages of fairly horrible reasoning. How charming.
And people wonder why I get caustic ^-^. (By which I mean I agree with you and hate dealing with stuff like that.)
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And people wonder why I get caustic ^-^. (By which I mean I agree with you and hate dealing with stuff like that.)
People -wonder-? I thought it was perfectly damn clear.
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Yeah, yet they always tell me to stop and never Alice :(
/me pouts
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First off, correction to my last post: I misremebered, I never was on the Zakeri wagon in the first place on D1. But that makes Rat's case on me make absolutely no sense anymore: I wasn't supporting one D1 wagon while voting for the other, instead I wasn't voting for either as I had someone else that I'd rather be lynched, and simply wasn't around before deadline to switch to Zentillion - not that it would have mattered, given how Zakeri decided to go suicidal at the end of D1 anyway.
First off, my reaction to Zak's flip was that of mild annoyance. I had pretty much figured out that he was Town, but then he decided to go suicidal on D1 and be the D1 lynch regardless of Town opinion, so yeah. <mutter>.
Anyway, first off, responding to people in the thread:
I'm also going to honestly say Alice's little 'I'd rather see Zent lynched' bit is actually rather odd. It's like hes trying to put himself against the Zakeri wagon without actually committing to the result of it happening... by 'conveniently' managing to not actually put his vote where his mouth is. Making it nigh impossible to get the lynch out. In fact, I'm half sure even if I did support Zent's wagon, We'd have to at the last second make a switch because alice doesn't commit. (Given we went around 7 minutes to deadline, it seems like that would be the case).
Okay. So being on a tertiary wagon D1 now is scummy in and of itsself? FWIW, I was planning to move to Zent later, but keep in mind that this weekend was a blur of conference and papers and moving, as well as another mafia game that is much higher in priority than this one for me.
Why did I not push his case harder? Uncertainty, combined with the fact that it's D1 and I tend to be fairly quiet on D1? Come on, Rat, you've played mafia with me for over 3 years, when have you *ever* (as Scum *OR* Town) seen me press a case hard on D1? Seriously.
UK/Kilga/Roukan/Furienify, could you please stop being UNLIMITED CHAFF WORKS? It's annoying as shit, really.
Anyway. I still love how Furienify, to this moment, STILL HAS NOT POSTED ANY CASE AT ALL. None. Zero. Nothing. Why are people going after myself and Kefit for lurking, when he has been doing the same and even pulling off Active Lurking at that? It seems that everyone is fine with yelling at him over it, and yet nobody actually wants to vote for him over it?
##Vote: Furienify
Zentillion, your wagon hop onto me is awful. Like, seriously awful. Oh my god. It has the feel of a desperate "save-myself" post when there are competing wagons in the day, except that Zentillion at this juncture is in no danger whatsoever of a lynch. I don't like the cheerleading from Carth at Zent while voting me, and I'm extremely surprised at Carth ignoring Furienify for that matter. Not sure about Carth at this moment.
I am also immensely displeased that K4U is managing to slip under the radar despite having the equivalent amount of posts *AND* the equivalent posting rate of myself and Kefit, and combines this with a suspicious-as-all-fuck L-1 votehop onto a flipped Townie, namely Zakeri, with no actual reasoning behind said votehop.
Suspicion list is looking as follows: Furienify > Zentillion > K4U > Rat.
And UK, considering that next to all of the pointless argumentation in this thread is your fault, that is a really irritating statement to make. Maybe if you'd get less caustic so quickly, you'd have less bullshit to sift through on rereads. Sigh.
@UK: because the issue is not the fact that you are caustic/sarcastic/whatever. If that was the only issue, I wouldn't mind you at all. The key difference is that you turn a conversation with someone in-thread into a multi-page back-and-forth chaff-fest that is worthless for determining alignment and only serves as more annoying garbage to have to skip over on a reread and that is quite likely draining to whoever decides to get into an argument with you.
There's nothing wrong with biting sarcasm, this is mafia. Just apply it sparingly, for crying out loud :P
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Ok. So why was that one post I linked in my ISO half IIoA?
Why didn't you vote Zent when you claimed you've be putting your vote where your mouth is?
Also, this is rich Alice.
Why did I not push his case harder? Uncertainty, combined with the fact that it's D1 and I tend to be fairly quiet on D1? Come on, Rat, you've played mafia with me for over 3 years, when have you *ever* (as Scum *OR* Town) seen me press a case hard on D1? Seriously.
Are you seriously using a self meta to try to clear yourself? I...don't think I often see this from you.
The Furienfly attack feels a lot like a deflection, especially given other suspects.
Honestly, the entire post bugs me but I can't point to many more examples of bad, and even the Furienfly is subjective.
Either way, I remain unconvinced.
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UK, is Furienfly a nickname or am I blind? I'm pretty sure his name is Furienify
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It's me being blind. Whatever, his new name is now Furienfly.
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Anyway, first off, responding to people in the thread:Okay. So being on a tertiary wagon D1 now is scummy in and of itsself? FWIW, I was planning to move to Zent later, but keep in mind that this weekend was a blur of conference and papers and moving, as well as another mafia game that is much higher in priority than this one for me.
I'm going to take the moment to respond to this since you chose MY post. My issue is you said 'Yeah I'm going to put my mouth where my money is' and proceeded to then not only avoid doing so, but not show up again AFTER doing so. You never put your vote down and that made it impossible for your preferred lynch to occur, ensuring Zak, who is town, was the lynch. You're not ON the wagon, you're acting like you are then letting it remain near impossible. keep in mind you WERE around near deadline as well. I see...absolutely no reason you couldn't have put your vote down ANYWAY. THIS is my issue, not anything else. Your attempt to reference the fact you were totally with the Zent wagon is what reinforces my belief you just want credit for being on the wagon without actually doing anything.
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UK/Kilga/Roukan/Furienify, could you please stop being UNLIMITED CHAFF WORKS? It's annoying as shit, really.
Apologies, but I'm sort of going along with Kilga's sentiment of 'this game really isn't fun anymore'. I don't have an urge to put the time in to produce long, overblown cases when the only likely response is someone pointing out how I'm wrong and insulting me while they're at it. Since I'm alive I'll still put on appearances, but really I'm not up for getting too involved with this game atm. Sorry. >_>
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Zent had done some bad stuff. He's still done that bad stuff.
I feel lurking was worse stuff, and will not buy into anyone telling me that it's somehow a non-functional method of finding scum. The time it took for Alice to post has gone beyond a joke here.
This- I wasn't supporting one D1 wagon while voting for the other, instead I wasn't voting for either as I had someone else that I'd rather be lynched, and simply wasn't around before deadline to switch to Zentillion - not that it would have mattered, given how Zakeri decided to go suicidal at the end of D1 anyway.
-is actually irrelevant, seeing as your last post on d1 was three hours before deadline and it was quite clear that one of two lynches was happening. Expecting a turnaround then is madness and delaying your vote on that clock is likewise. Also, appeal to meta is bunk. That Furryenify could qualify for lurking/having no case is also relevant, I would likewise be willing to lynch him.
Kefit's case on me is premediated on pairings and is all but telling me that I'm bad for not consistently sticking to my day-one guns, neither of which makes a lot of sense. Trying to play by the former just doesn't work until you actually have flips in hand or bountiful information and a pressing need to play that way (i.e. lylo).
I am uncertain how to resolve people raging at me for voting people who are not Zent save by indicating it is quite possible to find multiple people scummy, and some are clearly going to look scummier than others, which is the only real way to resolve such a dillema. Presently, lurking remains the best (but not only!) criteria in my view.
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Nothing to say about K4U, Carth?
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Where the hell IS K4U anyway? I meant to ask earlier but I forgot she was playing this game. That doesn't really bode well.
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K4U has already given Real-Life reasons (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg322065#msg322065) for not being active, correct? Can't really blame her for not posting, unless you want to say she's just lying/using it as an excuse.
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Oh, K4U is playing this game!
Hmm...I would like to echo Chaore's question
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Why didn't you vote Zent when you claimed you've be putting your vote where your mouth is?
I'm going to take the moment to respond to this since you chose MY post. My issue is you said 'Yeah I'm going to put my mouth where my money is' and proceeded to then not only avoid doing so, but not show up again AFTER doing so. You never put your vote down and that made it impossible for your preferred lynch to occur, ensuring Zak, who is town, was the lynch.
Because Zakeri going suicidal basically decided the outcome of D1. I have stated this multiple times now.
Are you seriously using a self meta to try to clear yourself? I...don't think I often see this from you.
Poor wording - but think about it. What actually is Scummy about being on a tertiary wagon D1 when you have a Townie wagon that you can easily jump on and arouse minimal amounts of suspicion for doing so (see K4U's L-1 vote on Zak, for instance)?
As for not pushing cases harder, yes, this is self-meta to an extent. But what exactly was I supposed to do? My opinions were stated, backed up with a vote, other people saw the same issues with Furienify, yet did not vote him, etc. Come on.
The Furienfly attack feels a lot like a deflection, especially given other suspects.
How is it a deflection? Please tell me how the case is bad. I know it is not my wagon, nor the major alternating wagon to mine, i.e. Rat. That is irrelevant. It is not late enough in the day phase that votes need to be locked to these two wagons. Therefore:
If you claim that my attack on him is somehow bad, please point out what is actually wrong with my reasoning. He has active lurked through two days with minimal resistance, multiple people have asked him for an opinion and he has provided at best snarky comments and still no opinion, he has not voted for anyone yet today, and basically did not vote for anyone D1, and on top of all that, he actually claims to not be a complete noob to the game and even linked to past games he's played offside in the signups thread.
If you find issue with my reasoning, please point it out. Otherwise, how is this a point against me?
Apologies, but I'm sort of going along with Kilga's sentiment of 'this game really isn't fun anymore'. I don't have an urge to put the time in to produce long, overblown cases when the only likely response is someone pointing out how I'm wrong and insulting me while they're at it. Since I'm alive I'll still put on appearances, but really I'm not up for getting too involved with this game atm. Sorry. >_>
It embarrasses me to admit this because I love mafia for the most part, but this game is seriously on the high end of irritating for me. That plus being incredibly busy is why I've basically been lurking. I'm not even sure what about the game is making it so aggravating - I'm in another mafia game on a different site right now that's basically great fun, so yeah.
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You still are reformatting events. You say "Zak going suicidal at the end of D1" was a given.
How? Why were you willing to vote Zent but never did? You keep saying these things but the facts flat do not reflect them. At this point I want links supporting your point.
As I said in my post, the deflection thing is both subjective and more gut than anything. I can't demonstrably prove it.
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I gave my opinion. I was one of the openers of the Zentillion bandwagon. (Why are people ignoring this?) I tried to put up a case against UK but that fell apart due to misunderstanding on my part. I'm not putting up a case against you because I'm leery of lynching lurkers, considering we were potentially waiting to see if you'd just get modkilled.
At any rate, I agree (again!) with UK. ##Vote: Alice. I guess that solves your 'not voting for any today' problem, too. You say that I've never put up any cases, but you didn't make all that great a one against me.
(Also- Furien, Furienfly, Furienify, Fury, Furry, whatever, I roll with it.)
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It's also pretty bad there and I guess Kefit sort of had one too. That's 5/11 players who lurk. I'm starting to see the flaws in my strategy, but somehow, I can't blame myself for them. I do think K4U is less likely scum than the others on account of that excuse she made, reads as something legitimate, her town/scumminess aside.
For the record, whilst I'm willing to listen to arguments on which lurker to lynch, I don't see why we'd consider lynching anyone else at this point in time. Offhand I still believe Alice is the scummiest amongst them, cannot re-evaluate properly for about 6-8 hours or so. But I will try to do so then.
ninja'd FIVE/SIX TIMES
furien deflection: Unknowable until we see flips. Can't take anything from it. Don't know if I want to switch lynches, don't think I do since Alice's errors are more telling.
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vote: furienify because the idea of furries on the internet makes me feel unsafe and insecure therefore i am obligated to antagonize them :<<<<<<<<<<<<
So uh, what's actually wrong with Alice's case? You forgot to point that out.
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Also, going to reread Alice now. I don't think he looks too bad atm but rereading may change my mind.
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Is that to me about Alice's case, HW?
As I said, it's gut and I can't point out any flaws. Furien's been bugging me as well, but probably the least of the Zent/Alice/Furien triumverate.
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This is for HW, as well.
How is it a deflection? Please tell me how the case is bad. I know it is not my wagon, nor the major alternating wagon to mine, i.e. Rat. That is irrelevant. It is not late enough in the day phase that votes need to be locked to these two wagons. Therefore:
If you claim that my attack on him is somehow bad, please point out what is actually wrong with my reasoning. He has active lurked through two days with minimal resistance, multiple people have asked him for an opinion and he has provided at best snarky comments and still no opinion, he has not voted for anyone yet today, and basically did not vote for anyone D1, and on top of all that, he actually claims to not be a complete noob to the game and even linked to past games he's played offside in the signups thread.
1. You've lurked two days as well, and you're just now getting some resistance for it. I've been sparring off with people from the start.
2. People have asked me my opinion, I gave it. I was on the Zentillion wagon at the beginning, after you decided to vote me for making a joke vote. Your reasoning back then was for content as well, but for all I know you could be sitting in UK's easylynch train.
3. I did vote for someone Day 1. -_- Why are people missing this. Here, the vote count. I started it all. I voted for someone Day 1 and gave a case. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318636#msg318636)
4. What does this last point even have to do with anything? I'm not a total noob (does not mean I'm immune to noob mistakes, such as... misinterpreted joke votes that are somehow my fault, but ok) and upon signing up for the first time it was suggested I give evidence to that fact. And there it was!
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That was aimed at Furien, UK. But Rat ninja'd me so it looked odd.
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You still are reformatting events. You say "Zak going suicidal at the end of D1" was a given.
At the time of my post where I claim I am going to vote Zent but don't, Zak's suicidal post is a ninja to that post and this is clearly referenced.
How? Why were you willing to vote Zent but never did? You keep saying these things but the facts flat do not reflect them. At this point I want links supporting your point.
Here, have a link: http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg320027#msg320027
Note how the post immediately before it is Zakeri resigning to being lynched.
I gave my opinion. I was one of the openers of the Zentillion bandwagon. (Why are people ignoring this?) I tried to put up a case against UK but that fell apart due to misunderstanding on my part. I'm not putting up a case against you because I'm leery of lynching lurkers, considering we were potentially waiting to see if you'd just get modkilled.
Okay, the reasoning for it at the time was fairly scarce, but this was D1, so I will retract my suspicion of you slightly for that. It is, at the time, a valid case.
At any rate, I agree (again!) with UK. ##Vote: Alice. I guess that solves your 'not voting for any today' problem, too. You say that I've never put up any cases, but you didn't make all that great a one against me.
So, um, two questions:
A) What of UK's case on me do you agree with?
and
B) What about my case on you is not that great? Your D1 play is not entirely as bad as I had read, however, your D2 play is pretty much inexcuseable.
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Might as well point out that Alice is at L-1.
And from sheer paranoia I'll ##Unvote, but my case still stands.
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See, the post you linked merely says "Oh, you aren't even going to replace out", despite also having that REALLY awkward "time to put my vote where my mouth is" regarding Zent.
That, in my eyes, does not show me that you are considering him suicidal and that Zent is no longer a viable wagon. It feels a lot more like an "Oh that's nice, let's hope no one notices me not committing to Zent"
D2 rolls around
"Dammit"
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EBWOP Not So Ninja by Furienify:
1. You've lurked two days as well, and you're just now getting some resistance for it. I've been sparring off with people from the start.
Irrelevant. You've never been under any real pressure, and most of your "sparring" was classical UK Unlimited Chaff Works-type material.
2. People have asked me my opinion, I gave it. I was on the Zentillion wagon at the beginning, after you decided to vote me for making a joke vote. Your reasoning back then was for content as well, but for all I know you could be sitting in UK's easylynch train.
Okay, so I will concede the D1 point to you. The D2 case still stands.
4. What does this last point even have to do with anything? I'm not a total noob (does not mean I'm immune to noob mistakes, such as... misinterpreted joke votes that are somehow my fault, but ok) and upon signing up for the first time it was suggested I give evidence to that fact. And there it was!
This is simply a statement against the responses of "but he's new to the game and thus we can allow him more leeway than usual" (let's face it, if Zent were any of the MoTK Mafia Regulars, he would have been turbolynched a long time ago for his play).
Anyway. I am rethinking this case. Your play has still been bad, but I'm uncertain if you're actually as Scummy as I had initially suspected. Hm.
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So, um, two questions:
A) What of UK's case on me do you agree with?
and
B) What about my case on you is not that great? Your D1 play is not entirely as bad as I had read, however, your D2 play is pretty much inexcuseable.
A. The deflection part, though she claims it's mostly a gut thing. I feel like I'd be the perfect person to deflect towards, in regards to both of our lurking.
B. I already pushed my D1 point, but all I can offer for D2 was that heat vs. UK prior to most of us stepping back for a day to cool down (even though the post was sorta fail, sigh). As it is, I'm drifting between her, Serela and yourself. The same wishy-washiness is the same reason I haven't produced a vote prior to this. So yeah, I'll concede this one to you. My D2 play has been suboptimal.
(Also, it's worth noting that Zentillion has mostly gone off to hide in the corner. Hm.)
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See, the post you linked merely says "Oh, you aren't even going to replace out", despite also having that REALLY awkward "time to put my vote where my mouth is" regarding Zent.
Read the Zakeri post immediately above it. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg320026#msg320026)
Or, y'know what, I'm going to quote it here, since apparently you keep missing the blindingly obvious repeatedly despite me pointing it out to you for the past five-or-so posts:
I don't mind if the Lynch happens to be on me. A Bandwagon is a bandwagon, and since mine started pretty early, it should be much harder to hide behind the deadline excuse. I'm sure you guy'll find scum. No hard feelings.
Besides, I probably shouldn't be in this game. The threat of my internet being cut is still real, and I honestly wouldn't have joined if I had known half a week ago.
I was hoping to get some kind of reaction out of Zakeri where actually sticking around and shifting my vote would actually be worthwhile. Keep in mind that I wasn't certain of either of their alignments at the time, though I was pretty certain Zak was Town by the time he went suicidal.
That, in my eyes, does not show me that you are considering him suicidal and that Zent is no longer a viable wagon. It feels a lot more like an "Oh that's nice, let's hope no one notices me not committing to Zent"
Please tell me how, alignment-wise, this is more likely to be an actively Scummy action as opposed to one done by a combination of another player derping out, and myself being busy? I find it amusing that the person who did an awkward L-1 hop onto a Townie wagon is getting no accusations, but the person who stayed off it (thus making it HARDER to further Scum's goal of Lynching Townies(TM)) is receiving colossal amounts of accusations and hate for it.
Think a little. Seriously.
Anyway, in the interest of not generating any more chaff, this is my last reply to you, UK, about this issue. I am uncertain about my original Furienify case now and need to spend some time doing rereads and actually scumhunting, and pointless back-and-forth arguing with you is merely a waste of time in that aspect. ffs.
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I am thinking critiically.
I thought I clearly stated why it was scummy. Because you were covering for Zent. But you had, in a prior post, said you supported the Zent lynch.
So, you could have jumped on Zakeri, right? And then had that earlier "Ready to support a Zent lynch" post bite you in the ass. So instead you lampshaded your support with it and the Zakeri ninja basically gave you a convenient excuse to not get Zent lynched.
Rather than actively support the lynch of your scumbuddy when Zak was, in all probability, going down at that point, you quickly changed your plan.
I really hope you aren't going to seriously attempt to respond to this scenario with a "that's stupid" or similar remark, because it really isn't.
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(Also, it's worth noting that Zentillion has mostly gone off to hide in the corner. Hm.)
Don't have anything worthy of note to say, though Alice is posting and seems to be making an okay case for himself. Just not enough to change my vote.
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So, you could have jumped on Zakeri, right? And then had that earlier "Ready to support a Zent lynch" post bite you in the ass. So instead you lampshaded your support with it and the Zakeri ninja basically gave you a convenient excuse to not get Zent lynched.
Rather than actively support the lynch of your scumbuddy when Zak was, in all probability, going down at that point, you quickly changed your plan.
Okay, I know I said I wasn't going to respond to your posts on this issue from now on, but I do have to make one exception to this:
A) Zentillion is new to the game, is continuously making mistakes, and is thus ideal target for a bus. Assuming we're both Scumbuddies, I could either go the route I did, which earned me a wagon up to L-2 (and L-1 for a short period of time!) and massive amounts of suspicion, or, I could, y'know, bus him, and earn massive amounts of TowniePoints(TM) for it instead. Seriously, think a little.
B) This argument only works if Zentillion is Scum. If he is Town, then this action makes no sense of me as a Scum whatsoever. So unless you have something that clearly and unambiguously shows that Zentillion is, in fact, Townie, why are you attacking me when one of the major points for me-Scum critically depends on Zentillion-Scum?
Seriously, what the shit. Step back from the post button, and actually think about my actions and how they reflect on my alignment. Now do the same for any of the other people you find suspicious. Hint, this is how you separate the DerpTown from the Scum, as I've been trying to convince you guize for the past couple games. Sigh.
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Because Zakeri going suicidal basically decided the outcome of D1. I have stated this multiple times now.
I don't buy this. Maybe because I actually stayed to see him try and fight back, but I in all honesty still can not look at your last post and say 'this is a man who just gave up on the fight to save Zakeri'. If this is the case, I can see it, but I still can't see this case.
Annoyingly I'm half sure this is because you just decided not to post anything, so there is absolutely NO trace of you throwing your hands in the air and getting disheartened, so I have only your word to rely on in this case.
So... I can't prove or disprove this. This is... kind of when you drop a case, isn't it.
K4U has already given Real-Life reasons (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg322065#msg322065) for not being active, correct? Can't really blame her for not posting, unless you want to say she's just lying/using it as an excuse.
She hasn't even tried in that one post she had. If she is seriously not having any time to hunt or do anything, she should honestly be replacing. I can hold her to a complete lack of content, I'm pretty sure.
I'm not comfortable holding Alice at L-1. I've essentially got nothing for a case right now and I'm not about to lynch someone over it.
##Unvote
Given how much I probably feel like Rou right now I want to get a good reread right now. I've messed something up incredibly, me thinks.
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At this point your arguments boil down to WIFOM.
Also, notice that I accounted for the fact you were planning to bus him with your oft linked post that supposedly makes you innocent
You only DIDN'T bus him because the Zak wagon was pretty much the most likely to resolve one, and you actually gain MORE "town cred" by not voting him and basically using the arguments you HAVE been using today.
That's L-3 now, not L-2, Chaore.
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Also, I really fucking hate the arguments I'm using, if it makes you feel any better Alice. I'm only using them because I think this is one of the rare instances where it's right. I wish I had something better than resorting to "lol WIFOM"
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Meh. Results of Alice reread:
* His suicide vote comes off really awkward to me even if it was a joke, and "trying to catch one of the new players on it" is kind of vague. Did he ever elaborate on what he meant by that?
* #74: Votes Furienify after Alice already said he wasn't going to put much stakes in his actions earlier, which seems odd. Why did you choose to vote him anyway, Alice? Rest of that post was fine though imo.
* #173: I'd like to see how that first sentance was going to end, and you never did place your vote where your mouth was despite leaving that in there. But meh, everything about this post has been pointed out already and I don't see much value in those points. Alice wasn't even on Zak, and I don't see how keeping his vote on Furien is bad since he had a reason for it and he DID say he thought both bandwagons were on town (meaning him not voting either shouldn't come a surprise), so.
Then he lurks for a long time after that until Carthrat brings him up in #320, which (even though it isn't by Alice) I feel the need to state my distaste with (probably awkward wording derp). As far as I can tell his previous case on Alice was "he didn't push the Furien case hard enough", which I'm somewhat confused by. It is true Alice could have pushed the case on Furien more, but how does not pushing it that much make him scummy? So Rat's case on him in #320 is really just "he didn't push the Furien case hard enough" + "ALSO HE LURKS", and I really don't see much of a difference (yet suddenly everybody starts buying it and drops the discussion on Serela, who I still get bad vibes from). I also agree with the belief that the post seems like an attempt at a distraction, perhaps to lead us away from Serela as Kefit suggested? Also confused why everybody treated Rat's post as a revolution, but whatever. Don't see why he thinks lurkers are more important to lynch than somebody who he said looks scummy beyond lurking (Zent) either. He also blatantly ignores K4U and Furien (who were lurking as well) and never actually answered me about my question regarding his opinion on Kefit. His defense of K4U again in #396 combined with how he didn't mention her earlier makes it seem like he doesn't really want K4U lynched for some reason.
Oh right, this post was about Alice. Uh. Okay, so, #382. How does whether you were on the bandwagons or not affect Rat's case? Don't really get that.
Why do you think Zent is scummier than K4U?
Refusal to bicker with UK could easily be an attempt to avoid slipping up, but I can't blame him considering how much pointless back-and-forth between UK and somebody else has already been in this thread.
Ehhhh. To be honest, I don't see many problems with Alice so far. There's a bit of iffy stuff but I wouldn't consider it actually scummy. Am I overlooking something major?
##Unvote Serela, ##Vote Carthrat for what I said in that blob of text in the middle of the post. Don't feel any better about Serela, though. Would like to know why he escaped the radar ever since the lurkers were brought up.
Warning - while you were reading 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
... Ehhh none of it actually changes my opinions from what I can see. Noted though.
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You only DIDN'T bus him because the Zak wagon was pretty much the most likely to resolve one, and you actually gain MORE "town cred" by not voting him and basically using the arguments you HAVE been using today.
Yes, the same "town cred" that has earned me a wagon and suspicion from several people including yourself. Yes, "town cred", that is what I would call this. Remember Alex from Himelander? In case you don't, here's the lesson you should have learned from that game: stop being a paranoid conspiracy theorist. It is completely inconducive to mafia play, and in fact, 100% counterproductive to, y'know, actual Scumhunting.
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At this rate, there isn't going to be a lynch on this day... Such is the way of the world. ##Unvote
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Unvoting is just going to make that worse. Why is everybody unvoting Alice for no reason suddenly?
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Because... because...
*goes out there* Those who unvoted might just be his scumbuddies...? Or indecisive like me.
At any rate, if it's not going to make things better...
##Vote: Alice
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Unvoting is just going to make that worse. Why is everybody unvoting Alice for no reason suddenly?
Perhaps because apart from UK's case of horrible and Carth's opening case on me, there actually was no reason to vote me - they were simply lurker pressure votes. Why were they pressure votes? Because, putting it simply, LALu only makes sense when the person is lurking. Over here, there was a case of someone being outright inactive to the point where they were in threat of modkill, due to a mix of various IRL reasons combined with irritation at the game. At this point, it makes no sense to vote them for LALu alone - as either they will show up and start producing, in which case keeping the votes on them makes absolutely no sense if the entirety of the case against them is LALu, or they just get modkilled anyway at the end of the day, making voting for them utterly pointless.
Anyway, the reason why I'm posting this is because I'm suddenly really weirded out by Carthrat's case+vote on me. Yes, LALu is a good thing. It is also completely pointless by the time a lurker has hit the Modkill Timer(TM). So why did you make said case when I was pretty close to ModProd-levels of lurking, and kept up with it even well past that? You know better than that.
As for everyone else, that's interesting because it means that it screams easy wagon hop. Zentillion is particularly awful in this aspect, I'm not sure which is worse, his vote for me, or his unvote off of me. His vote for me is literally a "me-too" vote, whereas his hop off me looks like nothing more than a Scum getting cold feet w.r.t a Townie wagon. Not feeling particularly good about Chaore either, but there's far more uncertainty there as to how his actions correspond to a given alignment. Anyway, halfway done a reread, should have a proper case up in an hour or so.
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Recent developments and a little bit of guilt from abandoning those that don't deserve it have me back here again.
I'm reading the Rat case and am thoroughly unimpressed. Lurkers are very much worth voting for, for reference see Meme Mafia over at the other site where 75% of the scum team was comprised of lurkers, for additional reference see every game ever where bofh was scum and survived to endgame because no one bothered placing any pressure on him whatsoever (Bamboo Forest in particular is a wonderful example of this). Lurking is a scummy thing to do because the less scum are forced to post the less bullshit they have to make up and the less info you'll have to be able to call them on it. A pure lack of posting is not necessarily scummy, but a lack of posting combined with uninspiring contributions when you DO post is most certainly scummy (in fact it's one of the scummiest behaviors out there!). Banking on potential modkills to solve lurkers for you is also bad juju, you vote for whoever you think is scummiest until they've actually been removed from the game. Bad bofh, bringing this up. You know better than that.
I cannot for the life of me read Kefit's Rat vote as anything less than an OMGUS, there's Appeal to Meta thrown in as well as attacking Rat for having multiple suspicions (with a small bit of hypocrisy thrown in by accusing Rat of leaving himself open to switch to Zent as necessary while leaving himself open to switch to Serela as necessary). Day 1 cases are Day 1 cases, it is not a Bad Thing to explore different avenues once you have trains and flips to work with (in fact, it is generally a Good Thing!). Not sure why bofh seems to think this is bad and that colors my opinion of him even with the recent delurk.
K4U could use some rope for reasons that are about as obvious as a monsoon at this point. Chaore makes me want to kneejerk fakevote him for the hypocrisy in citing attitude issues when attacking Rat back on Page 9 or 10 or so. UK I'm not touching, anything negative I would have to say about her, regardless of its logical validity, would be far too tainted by the proceedings in this topic to serve as anything more than more distraction. Perhaps this is to be revisited in later days.
I think I need to give all three of the newbies a reread as they all seem to have been accused of legitimately scummy stuff in the skims I've done. I will say that I've noticed a ton of melodramatics from Zent and this alone kinda makes me want to see him gone as well. A proper reread will have to come tomorrow, however.
Who would I not want lynched at this point? Uhh. Rat, he's been fine to me and the stuff that's been thrown at him is incredibly weak and/or from sources I'm far less inclined to trust. Roukan I guess, he's still done some suspicious stuff but SOMEONE in this bloody game has to be town and Rat's answer for him at the beginning of this day was a reasonable one (I'll admit I forgot Roukan went back to Zakeri; I thought he ended the day with his vote on Rat). Maybe huh what, I can't remember anything bad from him, but this is largely because I can't remember anything from him at all, which is probably Not A Good Thing. Hopefully I can make more sense of things real-time tomorrow. Current lynch order preference is Kefit > K4U > some bizarre bofh + newbies cloud that really needs sorting.
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You know better than that.
You know better than that.
Wow. This was entirely unintentional.
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Anyway, the reason why I'm posting this is because I'm suddenly really weirded out by Carthrat's case+vote on me. Yes, LALu is a good thing. It is also completely pointless by the time a lurker has hit the Modkill Timer(TM). So why did you make said case when I was pretty close to ModProd-levels of lurking, and kept up with it even well past that? You know better than that.
I must admit that I can only read this as "You should vote for lurkers, except when they lurk to levels sufficient enough to notice that they're lurking." It is not at all a meaningful thing to say, particularly when it is an entirely legitimate tactic to not post until you get that warning then come out with just about anything to avoid modkill (and probably lynch, too, given how towns tend to play most games.)
See Kilga for an excellent dissertation on why lurkers should be lynched.
@huh: Alice's non-persual of Furien is notable in that he had a vote on the guy and yet barely mentioned him, relatively speaking; he's doing pretty much the same thing lately since he has . His lack of a solid vote backing up his position towards the end of day 1 at a time when it was very much needed is likewise extremely suspicious. The lurking charge seals the deal.
Rifling through the remnants of Alice's posts has done nothing to alleviate my suspicions, particular the "I cannot be scum with Zent, because I could have bussed him for cred++." point raised back to UK. First, it is quite chancy for scum to bus scum on day one; if you are in fact scum with Zent and someone else who lacks solid experience, it could be seen as a preferable strategy to avoid pushing your bus in favour of getting a townie lynch. Not only that, the quality of play here is generally low and one could give Zent a reasonable shot at surviving despite his own problems. Since all you need to do to achieve it is not push Zent very hard...
The other option is of course that Zent is in fact town in this equation, in which case not wanting to be seen as a prominent hammer/being able to loudly declare "Don't look at me, I thought they were both town" as a defense is another possibly motivation. Neutrality is not really an option; furthermore, as town, you would supposedly have a far greater stake in choosing the scummier lynch and you did not demonstrate this.
Alice has also made appeals to meta and to emotion and I have no interest in logic along those lines, I could argue against him on the same terms but it is really entirely meaningless. Being drawn into things like that is, in itself, a way of generating the chaff he so claims to despise.
@Huhwaht v2.0: K4U's method of lurking compared to the others appears to have some legitimacy attached to it owing to her excuse, and thus I am intended to give her a pass over certain other key cases. I had no problem with her prior content. Furien was not lurking as much as the others whom I have mentioned, repeatedly, to date. I don't think it's right to compare them.
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Vote Count: Vote Count Edition
NeoSerela(1): huh♥♪!?what
Alice Margatroid(3): Carthrat, UncertainKitten, Zentillion
Carthrat(3): Kefit, Roukanken, huh what
Furienify(1): Alice Margatroid
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. You have ~8 hours remaining.
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/me is, for no adequately explainable reason, wearing a pair of poorly made rabbit ears.
It's times like this I wonder what Pesco would do. And the answer that comes back is inevitably 'throw caution to the wind, don't sweat the small stuff and just do whatever feels right'. Mindhax is great for when you really don't want to sit down and analyse. Less likely to make you want to throw the laptop across the room, too. -_-
About lynching lurkers: Apologies for being so willing to turn away from lynching someone who isn't talking much, but given that one of the big reasons I got Kefit lynched in Haruhi was because of his early lurking I'm willing to second-guess myself now that I'm not saying 'screw it, just do what everyone else is doing so I don't have to hang around this game'. Besides, I find active scumtells more believable than passive scumtells - i.e. it's easier for me to build a case based on what a person is doing rather than what they aren't. Carth jumped on a newb target, then dropped his case nigh-instantly to go for an easy lurker. Not analysing this game to death for the sake of avoiding an aneurysm.
Alice: I think there are plenty of aspects as to why a lot of us are getting rather annoyed at this game.
- General over-competitive atmosphere. There's almost two echelons of play here - the really good players (Kefit, Kilga, Alice) and just about everyone else in what's pretty much bottom-tier. The strong players call the weaker ones idiots, and the weaker players call the strong ones elitists. Half the reason I enjoy playing at the DL so much is that the whole roleplaying angle basically reinforces the fact that despite the difference in player skill levels, the game is supposed to be fun.
- Besides that, overly aggressive and insulting comments pretty much ensure that people have a miserable time. Obviously this is where everyone would point to UK, but I think most of us are guilty of this at times. Not much I can say on this charge other than that improving the first point will hopefully help with the second.
- A general lack of friendliness. If I had to make the comparison, it's sort of like we moved from playing casual, fun Melee to NO JOKEVOTES, NO LURKERS, WALLS OF TEXT ONLY, FINAL DESTINATION.
But that's irrelevant, and it's something to discuss postgame. As is, I'm happy with my vote on Carth unless I'm desperately needed to ensure there's any sort of lynch at all.
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- He "dropped" his case because it was a Day 1 case. Even then he still holds to it a little bit.
- He dropped it "nigh-instantly"? He spent most of Day 1 on the guy and only came out with a new case on Day 2 (which is not at all a scumtell).
- What defines a "not easy lurker"?
- How does the "preying on an easy lurker" accusation still hold when Alice has posted a whole bunch since and Rat's vote is still there?
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- All he offers is 'Zent's still a contender'. Feels too passive considering he doesn't make any effort to properly push the case.
- For, uh, not being around at the end of D1? RL circumstances could be all over the place.
- Lurkers are, by definition, easy targets, because all you need to do to incriminate them is say that they aren't contributing.
- Because his point on not moving from Furienify depends on Alice having a chance to move said vote.
Again, the idea of holding someone responsible for an omission rather than an action feels dirty to me. Unfair. Maybe I'm too lenient on lurkers, but honestly I'm at a stage where I could sit and argue with myself forever, so rather than throw myself into purgatory over it I'm going to tunnel for the sake of my sanity.
Like I said, if the majority thinks I'm in the wrong and shifts to Alice/we run reeeally low on time I'll go along mainly because no lynch helps no-one (no offense to No Lynch-tan ;_;), and if Alice DOES flip scum I'll probably turn away from Carth and look harder at Kefit. Right now, though, I'm sorry that I've lost the drive to look over everything that's being said at full-power. :<
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Wee, my graphics card exploded last night. I've got my laptop up and running now, so hopefully this won't be an issue anymore.
It seems like we're heading for the no lynch-tan ending. According to the walkthrough that's a Bad End, so ##Extension
Kilga: My main concern with Rat isn't that he has multiple suspicions, but rather the way in which he suddenly became the HITLER OF LURKERS and completely changed the topic of discussion AWAY from topics that could be discussed using our knowledge of yesterday's flip and the various trains in existence, i.e. the trains and counter-trains to which Zak, Zent, and Serela have all been involved with.
I'm still not seeing the Alice case, it seems largely based on lurking to me even though he's not doing that anymore. However, I am curious as to what happened to that proper case he said he would put up tomorrow.
Anyway, i gotta run to class. I hope enough people show up in the next ~4 hours to help us avoid a Bad End.
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Supporting an ##Extension as well. This day has been a complete mess so far and nolynch would not help.
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EBWOP: Oho, that's new. I thought I had like a minute to go in and fix a sentence before the edit indicator would appear. Guess not with the new forum software.
I changed "the case he said he would put up tomorrow" to "the case he said he would put up last night." The former made it's way in to the post via a sleep deprived morning brain fart.
Sorry about that, now I really have to get running to class >_>
[edible]Thanks to the magic of RC3, I have reverted it to its former brain fart nonsense. Enjoy! Also don't edit posts anymore :([/edible]
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##Extension as I run out the door.
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##Extension
We're not getting anywhere, it looks like.
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##Extension
3 Hours spare. Lucky giant rabbit, Lucky.
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edit: rofl how 2 count voet
An extension will be granted in one vote. You have 3 hours.
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##Extension!
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##Extension.
We seriously need to pick someone. People don't seem to be agreeing very well on lynching the ones that actually have a few votes on them already, and I've seen a lot of "well there's this group of like 3~5 people I'm suspicious about" as well. At this point, I've got pretty much nothing but "HOW DO LYNCH SCUM?".
Heck, all my previous arguments were ridiculously complicated and convoluted in the first place, since I feel like if I can't make a WoT everyone is going to rip me to pieces. Rou's summed this up fairly well already. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg323192#msg323192)
oh Furryenify ninja hay there
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Extension granted.
You have ~25 hours or so.
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@Rou: Delurking does not exonerate prior lurking charges!
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@Rou: Delurking does not exonerate prior lurking charges!
Since when has Alice not lurked here? Your lack of vote-shift point only holds if he had an opening to change said vote. If he'd posted without changing I could understand, but there's not enough evidence here to suggest it isn't just Alice not being around when the day ended.
As for Kefit, he gave me a good reason to go back to the case on you, and when he lurked the hell out of Haruhi he was Town then as well.
Yes, I'm using a meta clear. Sue me.
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but there's not enough evidence here to suggest it isn't just Alice not being around when the day ended.
Isn't Alice's post with around 2~ hours left in the day (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10) good enough evidence that Alice was there?
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Additionally, re: Kefit: I am fairly sure I highlighted several issues with Alice's recent play previously that give sufficient reason to continue voting him, particularly when put in light of his previous lurking. When put under pressure he has become exceptionally defensive and relied on several bad appeals rather than heavily pushing a case scummier than himself.
@Rou: I'd thank you not to lump in lynching lurkers with WoTs and weird jokevote crap as something to be avoided/something unfun/whatever when you make spurious emotional appeals. There is surely a limit to how much complaining about the suckiness of the game you're allowed to do.
Do you believe lynching lurkers is an invalid strategy?
Since when has Alice not lurked here? Your lack of vote-shift point only holds if he had an opening to change said vote. If he'd posted without changing I could understand, but there's not enough evidence here to suggest it isn't just Alice not being around when the day ended.
He posted three hours before deadline but didn't contribute when he basically had to, and lurked for a huge chunk of day 2 start. If that isn't intentional...
It isn't okay to use meta clears just because you know you're doing it.
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Isn't Alice's post with around 2~ hours left in the day (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10) good enough evidence that Alice was there?
derpaderp copied the wrong URL, here's the right link (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg320027#msg320027)
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Carthrat, are you dodging my question about your opinion on Kefit or did I miss a response?
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Do you believe lynching lurkers is an invalid strategy?
No, but in the same way that the Prisoner's Dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma) works differently when you play it multiple times. First game you see him lurking in, Alice is dangerous. If he flips Town afterward (and he has) then lurking starts to become evident as part of his playstyle and is effectively a nulltell either way.
Is meta retarded? Yes. But if it's an excuse for me not to work as hard as I'd have to otherwise, I'll take it.
The self-vote got discussion started, so I'm not sure how much it qualifies as a point.
Furthermore, would Scum!Alice claim that he was set to vote and then deliberately not vote? I'd assume he would know such a point would get held against him the next day, so I can't see it as an action he'd make willingly. That makes it accidental and therefore a nulltell.
Like I said, my heart sort of isn't in this game anymore. Sorry I'm not fighting points to the death.
(And I couldn't come up with anything clever for the Melee joke. Again, sorry that I'm not as funny as I'd like to be. >_>)
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Furthermore, would Scum!Alice claim that he was set to vote and then deliberately not vote? I'd assume he would know such a point would get held against him the next day, so I can't see it as an action he'd make willingly. That makes it accidental and therefore a nulltell.
Uh, I don't even think his voting error was scummy, but what you just said comes off really awkwardly. If we're going to excuse mistakes on the basis that scum would avoid making them, why pay attention to mistakes at all? (Before somebody thinks I'm actually suggesting we ignore mistakes, HERP DERP THAT WAS A RHETORICAL QUESTION)
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I simply think the mistake is too big for him to overlook. It's not the sort of mistake Alice would really make.
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Everybody died?
One thing about Alice, though. I'm pretty sure he said there would be a "proper case" like, last night. What happened to that? Did he just give up on us?
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One thing about Alice, though. I'm pretty sure he said there would be a "proper case" like, last night. What happened to that? Did he just give up on us?
As long as Roukan is reasoning based on player meta, I'm surprised he hasn't noticed this, given this sort of thing is classic ScumAlice play. Hell, it JUST HAPPENED in Meme Mafia. >_>
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I don't normally do this, but given her last active time was just two minutes ago, I would really like to hear something, anything from K4U.
More meaningful post to follow at some point. Kind of depressing that we have three people that haven't posted at all in the last 24 hours and a fourth that showed up to vote for an extension and do absolutely nothing else.
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Vote Count: Meh Edition
Alice Margatroid(3): Carthrat, UncertainKitten, Zentillion
Carthrat(3): Kefit, Roukanken, huh what
Furienify(1): Alice Margatroid
Not voting: Furienify, Serela, Chaore, Kitten4u
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. You have ~17 hours remaining.
Those who haven't posted in 24 hours or more will be prodded shortly.
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Why does it say I'm still on Serela? :s
[edible]Perhaps because you haven't changed your vote?[/edible]
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The Kittens and Alice have been prodded for inactivity.
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Why does it say I'm still on Serela? :s
[edible]Perhaps because you haven't changed your vote?[/edible]
Uh, no? I moved it to Rat a while ago. It even has that on the votecount (so I have two votes).
[edible]fffffffffffffffffff :colonveeplusalpha:[/edible]
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WARNING: INCOMING GAME
WARNING: INCOMING GAME
Furienify: Is truly bizarre. I see this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318263#msg318263) back-and-forth (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318346#msg318346) (if it can be called that) with Zakeri and it screams clueless town to me. But then he's the opening vote on the real Zent case (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318409#msg318409) by correctly identifying bad logic and even following up properly (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318446#msg318446). And then we go back to clueless (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg320102#msg320102). Takes him forever to vote on Day 2, stark contrast to the Day 1 behavior. Lots of defensive posts coming up here, lack of vote for a very long time and it comes with a panicked unvote almost immediately after. Currently has no vote down and doesn't appear to be planning any new cases. What is up with this? Man I don't know. He's done plenty to make me want to give him a small newbie pass but he's also done enough to show that he isn't. The thought has crossed my mind - repeatedly - that he was fed the Zent case from a scumbuddy, but I can't figure out why one would have done that given the vote count at the time instead of just letting him wander around on his own, making newbie mistakes. Just because I can't figure out why it would happen doesn't mean it doesn't still smack of buddycoaching, though. Willing to fakevote this case, though I think there are better options. Speaking of!
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NeoSerela: Zakvote is blatant bandwagon, sticking out especially because of how weak the entire train was (outside of myself imo but obviously I'm going to think this). Gets prompted to explain proper and responds, not by providing real reasons, but by going into something about how Zakeri and I were possible buddies that ends in no actual conclusion but a bunch of waffling instead (with a little bit of hypocrisy thrown in at the end when he accuses Zakeri of not providing reasons when he himself had not provided reasons for his Zakvote when asked). Keeps getting asked for reasons and keeps not providing them. Finally provides reasons here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg318885#msg318885), which are almost entirely founded in WIFOM and gets Zakeri's vote target wrong (Zak switched to Roukan after this post!). Ugh.
Actually huh what makes the case pretty nicely here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg321345#msg321345). Cool beans.
Day 2 Chaore vote (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg321854#msg321854) is based on Early Day 1 antics and "assume scum -> find evidence", both of which are bad for reasons that should be obvious. Attacking Chaore for sticking to his guns is silly, players SHOULD be keeping their votes on whoever they think is the most scummy regardless of other cases that might be popping up. Chaore's defense proper of this case is just a few posts down, go read it if you want to see the case taken to task in detail. Anyway. Unvotes Chaore, revotes nobody.
This post (http://-http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg321959#msg321959) deserves special spotlighting because of this line:
it's better to vote the person I suspect most then do someone else purely to look better, right? The point is to catch scum.
This comes right after attacking Chaore for doing the same thing.
Then there comes the Zent mini-spat, which I can understand given how terrible Zent's vote is, but the whole train of thought that starts with "I'm starting to think Zent couldn't be scum just because of how badly he's playing" and ends with a vote for Zent is baffling. If you're thinking he's not scum, why are you voting for him? If you think he IS scum, why did you include that bit about thinking why he might not be scum? I guess Serela seems to realize this himself with the later unvote, but again not placing the vote elsewhere bothers me, and he even admits he doesn't think Zent is scum asfuoahfuodsahgiooa
Oh, there's the origin of HITLER OF LURKERS. I remember telling myself, before I started this, that I would want to see whoever started that lynched for antagonistic alarmism. Glad to see it land here. Worthless chaff in the Extension post, chaff that is also hypocritical in light of the fact that Serela's vote currently sits on no one. If "we seriously need to pick someone", why aren't you picking anyone or really doing anyithng?
No newbie slack here, there are scummy mistakes left and right that shoot Serela straight to the top of my list. I'll even punctuate this feelings with this. ##Fakevote: NeoSerela
I will however pre-empt Kefit trying to sell his Rat/Serela scumpairing again because, assuming ScumSerela, this has all been just so bad that ScumRat would have been much better served throwing Serela under the bus (and ScumRat would have realized this) instead of trying to deflect attention away from him.
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Zentillion: Quick note before I begin: I'm starting in Day 2 because I believe I've discussed Zent's Day 1 enough already.
Now then. Even after picking through all the melodramatics, I can't find a real reason for his Chaore vote. Gets called on it, unvotes, revotes no one. Sadface. Serela vote is blatant bandwagon, he doesn't even bother substantiating it. Even admits it's a blatant bandwagonhop in his next post! Man I hope Zent is actually scum-that-knows-what-he's-doing and is just milking the newbie card for all it is worth because that would be the most awesome thing ever and I would be totally willing to lose to it. Hems and haws over the idea of moving his vote off of Serela, but eventually shifts over to Alice for two reasons that are actually good despite being mostly stolen fom other people! and two reasons that are not reasons ("many people suspect this person" does not imply "this person is scum" and making that jump is more blatant bandwagoning). The unvote-revote of Alice is I don't even know what the hell.
I am actually incredibly not sold on this guy being scum. *facenuke*-inducing, yes, but...Serela's just so bad and Alice isn't looking too hot either and those have been the two votes he's actually stuck to today and I can't imagine they're all scum. I'm having a terrible time verbally justifying why I don't think he's the best candidate for a lynch, he just...isn't for me. I don't think I could decently object if that is how the winds decide to blow, though.
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My thoughts have been moving Kefit "down" my personal list insofaras they keep moving a bunch of other people up. Still not happy with him, though, especially not for buying into the HITLER OF LURKERS shenanigans. I honestly forget of Rat or anyone else pointed this out, but here's how I saw that whole unfolding: Rat casts a vote for a lurker whose sparse content failed to inspire, while calling out another lurker or two for similar reasons, time passes, said lurkers still do not show up, Rat gets frustrated and starts trying to get people to look at them more. I can understand this perfectly, I always feel this way as town when my cases go ignored and the people they're on don't show up (doubly so if lurking is one of my charges against them).
Current death preference list probably looks something like this Serela > K4U > Kefit/Alice > Furienify ><><==<><<><=>>=<?? Zentillion. Not sure if I want to attach Chaore to this list, he really rankles me with calling Rat on attitude despite being one of the game's most abrasive players (as well as for generally being one of the game's most abrasive players), but the Extension vote with zilch content looks slightly less bad in light of the fact that he HAD posted something decent about 16 hours prior. Would probably require yet another reread focused on him to solidly place him on my list. Wish I knew where he's gone, though, >24 hours of no content is >24 hours of no content and complete lack of presence doesn't work given he showed up to make the Extention vote.
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Shuld also note that Roukan's been moving down my Happy List (? Xanth Enterprises 2010 ORIGINAL CONTENT DO NOT STEAL) and huh what's been moving up it as I go along writing the above post. Rat and huh what are the only two players I cannot see myself wanting to see voted off the island at this juncture.
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@Huhwhat: I could not for the life of me recall you actually asking me about Kefit, so I checked your history and hey there it was, apologies. However my position on him should have been very clear from my previous posts; he is a lurker, he deserves rope at least as much as the others. He possibly deserves it more; I have reviewed his posts today, will cover this at the end since I also need to berate-
Rou: Can you stop with the sad puppy-dog eyes act? If you really do not care about this game nor want to put any effort into it, at least do the protown thing and vote for whomever Kilga tells you to vote rather than relying on meta garbage, seeing as he's confirmed and all and also pretty smart about his mafias and I'd really rather you actually tried to play.
Back on the case, Alice has deliberately cultivated a lurker persona over many games and I will acknowledge this, but if I need to push him on it to get him to say anything then so be it. He has not really churned out any powerful cases today; most of his time is spent defending himself with a vauge Furryfly case in there somewhere (look, more support for lynching lurkers, from a lurker!) The only things I think credit him are that he has started posting and he does acknowledge lurkers deserve rope, so. If you want me to put it different; Alice lurking makes me nervous, if he is town he will lurk less, he will not hedge on votes on majority lynch endgames and he will post strong cases rather than be defensive.
As scum? He will lurk on purpose because he can get away with it via his meta and I feel he has done so this game. And there it is, both in-game AND meta justifications for lynching Alice that I think everyone should accept on some level. He's scummy!
He's not scummiest presently though, that award goes to-
##Unvote, ##Vote: Kefit
-who is now far more guilty of lurking than Alice is and has somehow managed to justify lurking for everyone by going "I did it, so it's okay", and then gone and what would be any other name still be an OMGUS on me. To a degree it is understandable to vote people who target you (or people acting just like you, I guess, and I'm also OMGUSing right now but it's totally justified), BUT why has he done it?
Firstly, he's prepared to flat-out call Serela scum 100%, utterly derides lurking as a scumtell (on him and Alice in particular and on meta, of all things, and I've played ONE GAME with Kefit so even then how the hell am I meant to know his meta, which I am bad at and hate to start with), and thus rejects much of what I consider good mafia wisdom on three fronts; firstly, if you think someone is 100% scum you lynch them; secondly, lynching lurkers is of the good, and thirdly, don't bank on pairings without flips! Especially on day two! I cannot believe you or anyone has the confidence in your opinions necessary to lump people together.
Secondly, if I come out with a solid case or solid discussion or whatever, and people follow it, it is as though I am somehow the one blamed for their change of heart. I guess, in a sense, that is sort of true, but it makes absolutely no sense to keep repeating it. If people agree with what I say or the discussion moves there, the blame for this cannot be laid at my feet alone and it is duplicitous to keep repeating 'look, town moved away from these cases I liked!' as though it somehow impinges on me.
Said it before, will repeat it: it makes zero sense to rail at me and vote me for dragging discussion away from your favoured topics when you believe they are *so important* that we cannot afford to talk about other things. Judging by your words you should be voting Serela or trying to push discussion back to that angle, but you've barely mentioned her today; you pretty much just said 'sure I'm convinced Serela's scum' and then tunneled on me for hating on lurkers.
<->
tl;dr kefit is lurking hardcore, deriding sound mafia strategy, calling me scummy because other people changed their votes, and despite apparently being convinced talking about Serela is super important and that he/she is totally scummy, is voting me for not buying into that discussion. :|
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Rou: Can you stop with the sad puppy-dog eyes act? If you really do not care about this game nor want to put any effort into it, at least do the protown thing and vote for whomever Kilga tells you to vote rather than relying on meta garbage, seeing as he's confirmed and all and also pretty smart about his mafias and I'd really rather you actually tried to play.
True. He's probably smarter than I am, which is why I was hoping that by trying to pull a Pesco I'd be RIGHT for once. It's half-laziness, and half-hoping that I'll finally do well without needing The Big Players to solve the game for me. :|
But, if he makes ReBoot references like that, then who am I to refuse?
Yes, I forgot about Meme Mafia. To be honest, I genuinely DID try to scumhunt that game, and the only reason I got anywhere was that I was secretly third-party Survivor. >_> You make a good point about Alice's chance to survive make his time, though, and perhaps I am just giving him too much credit. We probably don't have time in the day to press any lynch that isn't Carth or Alice given the current level of activity, so:
##Unvote, Vote: Alice (L-2)
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Mmph. I think a Kefit lynch could happen and he edges Alice out on suspicion, but I can't deny activity levels are pretty bad and I can hardly count on either of those also on the Alice train to switch, let alone any of the people who think it's cool to not vote ever. The case on Kefit seems blindingly obvious to me at present though. I live in hope.
Well, I'm up for the next few hours and will probably managed to get up just before deadline to ensure a lynch actually happens. All my ducks are on the table here, Kefit > Alice > myriad others for my preferred lynch.
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Posting to avoid modkill. I have class in like 10 minutes, so I can't make a proper post yet. I'll get something better up between my classes (which will be about 2 hours or so from now). Summery is: I still doubt any of the newbies are scum, I don't get the case on Carth, I like the case on Alice and I want to look at the other people that are lurking.
Apologies for my huge lack of presence today.
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Hi. My father is a totalitarian fucknut. I acknowledge the case on Kefit, but will keep my vote on Alice.
I think it's for some incredibly stupid reason having to do with being right, but regardless, I do think Alice is scum still.
K4U's post immediately makes me wonder about her alignment. That was impressive.
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Heck with it, I don't wanna get up early tomorrow.
##Unvote, ##Vote: Alice
Believe that's L-1.
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We have 5 hours.
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This game is starting to get painful to play. In most games, even if we do yell at each other, I always feel like we're still all friends and we can have a good laugh at everything afterwards, but this game doesn't feel that way anymore. Is there really any need to be so hostile? Can't we all just get along? I mean, it's just a game people. :(
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Okay, so newbies first. I've read through their posts, even keeping the D2 horrible in mind, and I still don't think any of them are scum. Their posts just read as confused newb town to me.
I don't get the Carth case at all. Seriously. He had the best reasons for voting Zen D1 and this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg321601#msg321601) and this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5787.msg322386#msg322386) is GOOD POSTING. I'm not a believer in LAL myself, but that's okay because he's not even making caes on people for lurking alone like some people seem to think. Seriously, the wagon on him is one of the lamest things ever.
Kefit's case is extremely bad and I'm surprised that people are jumping on it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only thing you find scummy about Carth is that he went after a newbie. Everything else relies on him being scum with someone that hasn't even flipped (and someone I think is likely town to boot!). I mean what? It's got a lot of words, but it makes no sense at all. That coupled with the bandwagon hop and weird attack on Kilga D1 makes me totally willing to lynch him.
I was thinking that Rou was town D1, but jumping onto Carth after Kefit's "case" SHOWED HIM THE LIGHT is just...uh wow. The switch to Alice is extremely awkward as well. That has completely destroyed my town read on him. Willing to lynch Rou.
HW's switch reads more as misguided town to me. I'm still not really getting why anyone's finding Carth scummy though. :/
On Alice, people have already said most of what I would have said. I don't really think that him not pushing Furi harder makes him scummy like some people though. I do think that the fact that he didn't vote for Zen despite clearly being on before the deadline is scummy, and I find his defense scummy. Declaring intent to hammer when I get home, which will be in about 1.5ish hours. I have a question for you if you get on before I get home: what was so scummy about my switch? I said I was against the Zen lynch and that I was for a Zak lynch and it was obvious that either Zen or Zak was going to be lynched. I do not comprehend what is so weird other than I had to get off, so I didn't have time to state that I was voting because of the deadline. :/
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I don't think Rou's switch to Alice is a big deal, as if nothing else it works toward ensuring a lynch today, whereas I would have fought tooth and nail to prevent a Rat train.
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Just went to get lunch, so I"m back a little later than I expected.
##Unvote
##Vote Alice
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In during twilight
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Here lies Alice Margatroid
Was lynched because he lurks
But the funny thing about lurkers
Is they can sometimes be town, you jerks!
Alice Margatroid, playing Alice Margatroid, Embodiment of Townie Rage (Limited Vig), was hung out to dry!
It is now Night 2. 24 hours, do your stuff.
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Ok! Ok! Point friggen taken Alice.
I'll try to think next time, ok?
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Kilga is Team Jacob
Hangmafia time!
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
13 alive
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....Alice was town.
:colonveeplusalpha:
Hangmafia: K
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Hangmafia:I
-
K
_ I _ _ I _ _
11 alive
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L.
-
K L
_ I _ _ I _ _
10 alive
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N
-
R.
I think I got it... although if I did, that's a good trick you did thar~
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K L R
_ I _ _ I N _
8 alive
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Uh...
A
-
G
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Darn, I was wrong, it's not FURIENIFY without the FU D:
Hmm... E
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K L R A E
_ I _ _ I N G
5 alive
You guys have kinda already lost, but whatever.
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Fuck, we can only afford to miss two letters... or just one, depending on how it works.
errr, P?
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K L R A E P
_ I _ _ I N G
4 alive
I'll let you guys run this down till all are dead.
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How are we guaranteed to have lost with 4 guesses left?
B.
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K L R A E P B
_ I _ _ I N G
3 alive
There were 5 unique letters as scum, so LyLo was at 10 alive actually. Yes I forgot the original rules to this game.
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F
-
K L R A E P B
F I _ _ I N G
2 alive
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T?
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T?
lolno
F I S H I N G
What I've been doing on IRC the whole time thanks to Helepolis' fishing MMO :3
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lolno
There were 5 unique letters as scum
I figured the last one had to be two in a row of the same. orz
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I figured the last one had to be two in a row of the same. orz
Miscount orz
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Miscount orz
Ah well~
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Kilga is Team Jacob
:*
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Oh, you guise, reading this thread is so much lulzy.
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Oh, you guise, reading this thread is so much lulzy.
Quite the spectator sport :3
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Quite the spectator sport :3
Who needs the cinema when there's this? :derp:
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[Insert generic rage against Bardiche here]
Now you can play too!
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[Insert generic rage against Bardiche here]
Now you can play too!
Actually I'd better edit this statement before people take me serious because IT WAS SO COMPELLING.
:derp: ::)
Rage with me post-game, okay?
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It's a date! But a platonic one!
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It's a date! But a platonic one!
>I-I am NOT a tsundere!
:ohdear:
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>I-I am NOT a tsundere!
:ohdear:
/me sees 10 years into the future with her as a mother
"I-It's not like I made this boxed lunch because I like you or anything! I- you just need to eat at school or something! J-Just go catch your bus, you idiot!"
/me throws the boxed lunch after her kid.
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The earth has spun around
A new day has been found
But someone's played a trick
He's right-side up, it's sick!
Poor Carthrat's on the ground.
Carthrat, playing Kefit, Obvtown, was exported to America!
It is now Day 3. You have 168 hours.
With 9 remaining alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Town is in LYLO. Kilgamyon is stuck in an Ecto Trap.
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Claiming now since it's lylo. Zentillion, started as a vanilla Townie but got something called the Easy Stalk 9000 N1. Apparently lets me watch someone, buuuut it's glitchy as all hell so I can't even so much as choose the target. I have a result, but I don't want to say any more until all the other claims are out in the open.
Furienify is looking terrible on a quick re-read. Spends half of Day 1 doing nothing, gets into a fight with UK and gives plenty of reasons for her being scum and then doesn't vote her, and leaves his vote on Alice only to disappear after putting in his vote for the extension.
Will contribute more after some claims come into the open.
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##Claim: Roukanken, Obvtown. How surprising for me!
Also, apologies for vanishing at the end of Day 2. Monday I just kind of uh... Well, Literally fell asleep at the monitor. Took a nap after that and slept straight to 3 in the morning. Would've posted but it was three in the damn morning and holy shit I was not in the mind to play mafier.
And, Well. I had school the next day and didn't get home till 12 minutes after hammer.
Not done with a reread either but in light of Alice's flip, I am certainly not cool with both kittens now. I'll note while Carth started the case off rather nicely, UK honestly pushed it a great deal. On top of that, I particularly remember her saying she was using logic she hated and I'm almost certain took a potshot on Neo about earlier in the day. I'm not about to call UK scum based on that alone, but I'm honestly going to take her with a grain of salt about now.
The other kitten goes by her own in that -everything she has barely done- is mostly riffing on other cases. Alice at the very least tried to hunt, I have honestly not seen a thing new whenever K4U posts. I especially love how she basically details -nothing- about why she finds things scummy (See, 'Probably Chaore!Scum, ALICE'S DEFENSE IS SCUMMY + ALICE'S LACK OF VOTE IS SCUMMY).
Definitely going to say if anything I'm letting Rou off the hook for the moment. I...was pretty much just being stupid with that entire case, looking back on it. Probably feeling like I -had- something for once. Real laugh there. I maintain however, Neo looks absolutely terrible at the moment and listening to Kilga on him at least seems like a good idea at the moment. Less I speak of Zentillion the better. Have more detailed on all this after reread, should I not be stupid like usual.
Everyone else I'm honestly going to have to Iso after all this as I have a bad habit of DERP SKIPPING OVER when normally reading.
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Definitely interested in hearing more claims, but I'll provide my own, which causes me to suspect Chaore.
I'm Serela, Townie
Now why am I a Townie, when Chaore claimed Obvtown? What is the difference between these two I wonder?
Could be nothing, hence why I'm waiting to hear more claims.
Yes, I was wrong on Alice and was stupid to pursue it as far as I did. Mea culpa. K4U looks really friggen terrible. Kefit doesn't look pretty either, but I need to analyze both of them.
And of course we have Zent, Serela, and Furien to look at for the lulz.
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I was asked for clarification on Alice's role, and now both Alice and an Obvtown have flipped, so it will answer your question, UK:
Embodiment of Townie Rage is a 0-shot vig that gains a shot every time an Obvtown dies.
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NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN
[edible]:spitdrink: roflmao[/edible]
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Wellp, thar goes that.
Though I have a secondary theory now. But I want to see some claims first.
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Hmm. Perhaps it's time for me to look back at NeoSerela... Then again, my instincts seem to be as bad as my playing, so... time to think.
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Derp.
Kilgamayan, Obvtown. With a noted dose of rage towards people who play mafia that aren't me.
That said, brb, reading Serela's case.
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Zent, claim your role now like everyone else is.
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I'm Chaore, Townie.
I'd rather hear the rest of the claims before I go back and reread. I need to get my desktop back up and running too, it's a pain in the ass doing anything on this laptop. Hopefully that will be taken care of by tomorrow.
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I'm Roukanken. Town.
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UncertainKitten, Townie. Although, if someone like UK is a Townie role, I have to wonder what the Scum roles are :V
Carthrat posts a joke but doesn't actually roleclaim. Hmm. And I must admit, I really didn't notice the lack of roleclaim at first because of it... although whether this is an intended purpose or not, I dunno.
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Carthrat posts a joke but doesn't actually roleclaim. Hmm. And I must admit, I really didn't notice the lack of roleclaim at first because of it... although whether this is an intended purpose or not, I dunno.
Uh.
He...is rather dead at the moment, Neo.
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And I'm rather blind at the moment :derp:
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.
.
.
##Vote Zent
##Claim: Roukanken, Obvtown. How surprising for me!
I find Chaore a lot less scummy than you.
Serela, your smartassery is not necessary if we are seriously going to get over the hostility in this game. In fact, I actually DO tend to be transparently town, even if I'm a bit hostile and rude.
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@ NeoSerela: Is your blindness perhaps a CLEVER RUSE?
I'm writing up a large post right now. Expect it soon.
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Dammit, I coulda sworn I read all the claims. :derp:
Can't change it now. :V
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Serela, your smartassery is not necessary if we are seriously going to get over the hostility in this game. In fact, I actually DO tend to be transparently town, even if I'm a bit hostile and rude.
I was just joking around, sorry :<
@ NeoSerela: Is your blindness perhaps a CLEVER RUSE?
I'm writing up a large post right now. Expect it soon.
Bleeeeh, I figured that was going to happen. I was slightly surprised no one brought that up when I butchered the quote tags in one post and then butchered them AGAIN when I tried to fix them in a followup post.
Man, every time I post, I just accidentally dig my own grave a little deeper. X_X At this point, I'm not really expecting to live past today.
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...
And you admitted you were scum.
This is fucking hilarious.
Wellp, that's D3. Get your big catch up posts out of the way, Zent's been scum the entire friggen time
Also
WHY THE HELL IS NO ONE NOTICING THIS?
Is everyone just AVOIDING pointing out Zent claiming scum?
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Sorry. I like catching scum as much as the rest of us, but that was just FACEPALM inducing.
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Dammit, I coulda sworn I read all the claims. :derp:
Can't change it now. :V
wait what
You claimed the same role as someone else? And then went "oh crap I thought I read them all already, shit". When all you'd have to read to remember your role is your PM from Edible... if, that is, you weren't making up a lie in order to not show your real role.
If that isn't incriminating evidence, I don't know what is.
oh boy I got DOUBLE NINJAED :V
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Oh right, and ##Vote:Zentillion
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No, I just popped in. :V
I was apprehensive about lynching earlier due to, you know, newbieness and the guilt factor I'd get from it. But he's not even bothering to hide anything now. :V
##Vote: Zentillion
wryyyyyyyy voteninjas
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I'm Kitten4u, a town-aligned tracker. I targeted the real K4U n1 because I thought her behaviour late D1 was suspicious (I think we've gone over this already. Turns out she went after Rou. That doesn't make me feel too much better about her, but I'm curious if she's behind Rou's weak watcher thing somehow. Last night I targeted NeoSerela since at the time I was planning to push for a Rat lynch some more today (especially after Alice's flip) but still didn't feel very good about Serela. Results say he targeted Rat, meaning he is obviously lying about being a vanilla townie. <_<
##Vote NeoSerela
I already stated my suspicions against Serela in #257, but I'll restate+reword my points here for convenience:
* Bandwagon jump on Zakeri for no good reason (and a majority of his explanation which came later was justifying the vote based on something Zakeri did after he voted). This is the main root of my suspicions, it feels as if he just saw an easy lynch and decided to go with it
* Made up pointless slander regarding two now confirmed townies, claiming they were scum partners which is really just filling up his post to make it look like he's contributing when he's not
* Aside from his garbage about Kilga and Zak, he never mentioned anybody other than the two people who had bandwagons. Don't think he tried to scumhunt at all.
There's also a number of things that popped up after my vote. Soon after I posted, he voted Chaore for terrible reasons which Chaore already defended himself against, and Serela just gave up and unvoted immediatly afterwards. He also never gave a proper explanation for his vote on Zak. #300 does not explain his reasons for voting beyond "lol gut". His vote on Zent was bad, and he even claimed he's starting to think Zent is dumb town but then votes Zent anyway. It felt like an OMGUS, really, and he even admitted it was in #366, where he unvotes.
After Serela unvoted, he never actually bothered to vote again, meaning he had no input by the and of the day. Note that he criticized Chaore for not voting anybody after voting Alice, making his lack of vote by the end of D2 blatant hypocrisy. Except Chaore actually voted eventually, so what Serela did is actually worse. #439 seems odd to me. Why is he helping to clarify one of the points of the Alice case even though he never even claimed to be for an Alice lynch? Could possibly be really minor cheerleading.
And of course, like I said, he targeted Rat last night, which pretty much confirms he's scum. No complaints with a Serela lynch at all.
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Wow, Zent. Did you just admit to fakeclaiming?
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Meh. We can pursue Neo tomorrow.
##Unvote
##Vote Zentillion
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Wait...we caught TWO scum? Seriously!?
Zent first, he claimed scum. 1 v. 1 Huh What vs. Neo Serela tomorrow. A tracker claim at lylo is, quite frankly, suspicious in it's own right, but it's mostly we have to assess who's scummier. Serela or HW?
But yes, we have this now:
Scum:
Zent
One of these is scum:
Huh What
Serela
Undetermined:
Roukanken
Kitten4U
Kefit
Furienify
Likely Town:
Chaore (Zent fakeclaimed his role. Granted, this COULD be sacrificing Zent to clear Chaore)
Myself:
(I know I'm town)
UncertainKitten
...Wait, why are we in lylo WITH NINE ALIVE?
ZENT IS AT L-1
NO HAMMERS TIL EVERYONE HAS POSTED AND HAS NOTHING TO SAY
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Wow, Zent. Did you just admit to fakeclaiming?
No, I admitted to DERPclaiming. :(
I was supposed to go by my PM?
I AM REALLY Furineinfy, Townie.
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...
what.
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UncertainKitten, Townie.
:objection!:
I saw you acting last night, so you're talking bull.
##Vote: NeoSerela
HW apparently got the same lead I did, so :V
Ninja'd by Zent getting put to L-1. My only concern is why would scum even need fakeclaims, given that the names mean nothing? As such I'd prefer to stick with the guy I KNOW is scum rather than Zent who may just be the worst Townie ever.
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.
.
.
Zent just made the most brilliant play he COULD his in position right there. I'm honestly not sure if he's just really that...um, let's go with bad at mafia, and town, or if he's scum.
And it's lylo so we honestly can't just do this hastily. We have to make a value judgement. Is Zent dumb town or scum who just got coached into a good play. I certainly lean the latter but L-1 in lylo is unhappy now.
##Unvote
Ninja by Rou: Wait, what?
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Ok, reread Rou's claim.
Then...hmm...
Well, there are several possibilities. Especially since it's NINE ALIVE lylo.
Scum, at this point, can afford to use two people to verify a mislynch. Troube is, it's two people I've regarded as townie doing this. So, I might not want to overthink this.
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No, I admitted to DERPclaiming. :(
I was supposed to go by my PM?
I AM REALLY Furineinfy, Townie.
:/
This whole mess is alarming.
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EDIBLE! I want confirmation that with nine alive we are in lylo.
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I mentioned before that I got the Easy Stalk 9000. N2, I saw NeoSerela leave his house (i.e. perform an action), though I didn't know what it was. Given that he's claimed no role and HW's tracked him with identical results I'm pretty convinced.
And fakeclaiming FOR THE SAKE OF NOT CLAIMING YOUR REAL, HARMLESS NAME is sort of awkward. By now Zent has actually gone so far down the scale of New Player Mistakes that if he's scum he's gone all the way round again and turned into a genius.
Other people are still more worthy of examination, though. K4U's content is non-existent, I've made points against Furienify, and Kefit's activity needs to improve like it did in Haruhi when we hit the later days.
Ninja'd by UK. Uh, I think the title of the topic says it all. :V
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EBWOP: Actually, here's a question. Why did UK point out the mistake with Zent's claim, rather than Chaore given that it was his role? Curiouser and curiouser...
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EBWOP: Actually, here's a question. Why did UK point out the mistake with Zent's claim, rather than Chaore given that it was his role? Curiouser and curiouser...
She found that Zent was far more scummy than she was finding Chaore.
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zent y u do dis
I really don't even know what to do at this point. I seriously hope Zent is scum using the newbie card to troll us all.
Meh. Returning to Serela since I can actually confirm he's scum (and so can Rou) since I guess there still is the possibility that Zent is even derpier than the derptown we thought he was.
##Unvote
##Vote NeoSerela
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Results say he targeted Rat, meaning he is obviously lying about being a vanilla townie. <_<
What?
Unfortunately, there really isn't any way to response to this other then the equivalent of NO U. I'm vanilla townie, so either
A.huhwhat is completely lying, therefore would logically be scum.
B.huhwhat is telling the truth, and therefore, I'm logically the scum.
...of course, with people suspecting me so much already (and for good reasons, since I could see someone doing derpiness fakely to play the Newbie card), I don't really think that people will side with me instead of huh what.
All you've got is my word that I'm Vanilla Townie... which I doubt is going to amount to much, but, well... it's all I have.
And seriously, Zent going "oh whoops MY PM SAYS I'M FURIENIFY :V" doesn't clear him at all in my eyes. Wouldn't each of you at least try to save yourself, even after admitting to fakeclaiming?
Also, seconding UK's ninja on me. Wouldn't there have to be 4 scum for us to be in LYLO...?
And ninjaed by Rou. Now I'm wondering if Zent/Rou/Huhwhat are all scum together and plotting my downfall or something. Or... if my role has some hidden clause I wasn't told in PM that makes me look suspicious upon tracking; I've read about similar roles on the Mafia Wiki.
AND NINJAED TWICE MORE OH MY GOD LET ME POST @_@
and again.
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To clarify the above point, it's a question of 'Why did Chaore let Zent's obvious fakeclaim slip, especially since it should have been doubly obvious to him?' If one is scum, I can easily believe the other as a buddy...
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Most important to me is why in the world would a townie lie about their claim name, especially when it isn't indicative of your actual role or power at all? :/
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Most important to me is why in the world would a townie lie about their claim name, especially when it isn't indicative of your actual role or power at all? :/
My only concern is why would scum even need fakeclaims, given that the names mean nothing?
I swear I need to patent any new points I bring up to stop things like this happening. :|
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I swear I need to patent any new points I bring up to stop things like this happening. :|
If you patent points, people will post even less. There's nothing wrong with people stating their views. If I go 'olol I agree with Rou' then I'm just parroting. Vicious cycle.
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EBWOP: Actually, here's a question. Why did UK point out the mistake with Zent's claim, rather than Chaore given that it was his role? Curiouser and curiouser...
I beat Chaore to it likely. I saw the Rou claim, looked at Cha's claim, and basically was like "WAIT A MINUTE"
The fact that Zent was claiming without even pointing out Cha's claim as fake was also more like scum who thought their claim was safe.
And for me to accept the title saying it all, I'd have to accept there were four scum in a thirteen player game, and very little power to counteract that
I'm sure you can understand why my mind is boggling.
Don't comment on town power until everyone has claimed. There's more to it but it's still weak.
And ninjaed by Rou. Now I'm wondering if Zent/Rou/Huhwhat are all scum together and plotting my downfall or something. Or... if my role has some hidden clause I wasn't told in PM that makes me look suspicious upon tracking; I've read about similar roles on the Mafia Wiki.
As I said, if we DO have four scum alive, a gambit by Rou and HW that simultaniously implicates a scummy newbie as well as defends a newbie scumbuddy is quite wise, especially given lol lylo.
We have to make a choice eventually. I want all the data first.
The fact you suggested the latter about a hidden clause in your PM bugs me. It's equivalent to claiming miller in response to a cop, and ties into a tendency to try to look town by giving others the benefit of the doubt. I've done this in the past.
Ninjas:
To clarify the above point, it's a question of 'Why did Chaore let Zent's obvious fakeclaim slip, especially since it should have been doubly obvious to him?' If one is scum, I can easily believe the other as a buddy...
This theory has occured to me, but it would mean that Chaore is essentially sacrificing Zent, which, granted, is not an impossibility.
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Most important to me is why in the world would a townie lie about their claim name, especially when it isn't indicative of your actual role or power at all? :/
Because he's an utter freaking dumbass. :V
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I'm Carthrat townie inventor. I gave Rou that "Easy Stalk 9000" thing he was talking about. I'm only one-shot, and I gave him the most useful of the three inventions I had. My options were:
-Weak tracker (can see if they target someone, but can't tell who they target) (this is what I gave to Rou)
-Weak watcher (can see that someone was targeted, but can't tell who targed them)
-Bodygarud (can protect someone, but if that person is targed with a kill they will die in their place)
I can verify that Rou IS telling the truth about recieving the Easy Stalk. I thought he was extremely townie D1, and I actually had a minor mental meltdown when I thought that he might be scum D2 (though thinking about it, Kilga's right, his vote switch to Alice is okay, so I'm less bothered by him now).
---
As for stuff. Oooooookay, I guess I was wrong about the newbies. Both Zen and Neo obviously need to die. I think the fake claim is objectively worse so yeah.
##Vote Zentillion
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##Vote: Zentillion
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##Unvote
##Vote Zentillion
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:ohdear:
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YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
/me highfives Kefit and K4U
And you too Furi but you were already on it so you couldn't participate in our triangle attack :< Sorry man.
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To clarify the above point, it's a question of 'Why did Chaore let Zent's obvious fakeclaim slip, especially since it should have been doubly obvious to him?' If one is scum, I can easily believe the other as a buddy...
UK got it in one. She did beat me to it, as even I didn't insta-click 'wait a moment'. As you know, Fake claiming a -flavor name- is the last thing one expects.
This theory has occured to me, but it would mean that Chaore is essentially sacrificing Zent, which, granted, is not an impossibility.
I haven't even gotten in a word between all these ninjas and suddenly I'm so scum tossing Zent aside? Even I'm not stupid enough to assume someone fake claiming my flavor name is -at all a pass-.
...Did scum just triple son of a freaking. God DAMNIT TOWN.
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Game over, scum wins.
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(http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/7221/sikifacepalm.png)
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Honestly, I'm leaning Scum in front of me wrt Zent.
It's terribly stupid, but the only ways I see Zent's weird claims working are A)Scum with Chaore, planned bus to get Chaore a ticket to endgame, or B) Scum stupid enough to think he had to "safe" claim and was looking through all the other claims to find one that wasn't taken.
B seems silly but, if Zent has demonstrated anything it's that he is very silly when it comes to mafia.
Ninjas: Fuck all of you.
It sucks I was wrong about Zent, but honestly, he bought town's loss with that fakeclaim.
At least I was thinking about the possibility of HW scum.
But apparently Rou wasn't a buddy? Interesting.
Well executed, regardless
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Good game people. Postgame comments:
Sorry Edible, you probably didn't really deserve this :<
I'm sad my super duper roleclaim that was meant to make K4U look better while turning Rou against Serela never actually worked.
Apologies to Rou too, though I guess K4U should be doing that and not me. Hooray for Yoshi's Island enemy roles!
The highlight of this game for me was the scum quicktopic (http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/wssYHukUw5nj), which was much more fun to post in than the actual thread. I would totally take the entire scumteam out for burgers if I could. :>
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Good game people.
Hardly.
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Yeah it was pretty terrible.
But the final-lynch gigglefit was worth it. :V
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Sorry Edible, you probably didn't really deserve this :<
I probably did. 9/4 setup and no investigative roles for town is apparently horribly imbalanced, even if Town has a stump and a potential two-shot vig.
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what the hell is up with Rou and Alice seeing me (not ACTUALLY) go after Carth then D:
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:akihawhat:
Yeah this was sort of a trainwreck. Sorry for my little breakdown. :|
HW I bought. Too much. I couldn't think of anything objectively bad he'd done all game, tbh. If he hadn't died N3 there would've been blood, though.
Furienify I WAS ON DAMMIT FFFFFFF
K4U? Really? Are you saying this thing you gave me was freaking fake?! O_O
And Kefit, well, I made that point I guess? Aw, who am I kidding, I played utter shit this game. >_>
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Hardly.
Common courtesy :3c I blame shoddybattle ladders for the habit.
Serela: K4U was scum with the ability to send fake messages to people (like Rou!)
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what the hell is up with Rou and Alice seeing me (not ACTUALLY) go after Carth then D:
Fix:Rou, Alice was a typo meant to say "huhwhat" but hw was scum anyway
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K4U? Really? Are you saying this thing you gave me was freaking fake?! O_O
:D
Real commentary coming when my hands stop shaking.
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Your night kill was simultaniously a great play and really stupid.
I had K4U and Kefit by NK analysis alone, and was GOING to go back and ISO both to set up a real case.
But then the claim bullshit occured.
I probably did. 9/4 setup and no investigative roles for town is apparently horribly imbalanced, even if Town has a stump and a potential two-shot vig.
Town power was too weak.
But not as bad as you think
The obvtowns were basically masons once massclaim occured. The confirmability on it's own was pretty decent, and I was HOPING a scum would try to get in the group, but if not I was going to take Chaore as town.
The vig having to rely on another player dying was...null. It gave town little power and mostly added swinginess
But, since town was basically mountainous...just no.
10:2 mountainous is theoretically balanced, and town has never won it*
*on MS
So 9:4 Mostly Mountainous? Yeah no.
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SEE?! I WAS TOWN. Don't judge people on their stupidity.
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So 9:4 Mostly Mountainous? Yeah no.
Mountain is cop-less, right? I don't really like investigative roles, they make mafia too easy. I will agree that 4 scum was too much, but if I had brought it to 3 I would have removed one or both of the kills, substituting the vig for something like a limited doc.
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Sorry Zent, but you really did deserve that dogpile mislynch. :|
Apologies to everyone since I'm probably going to take half of the pointless ire/rage of town since I was on the scumteam, but meh.
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SEE?! I WAS TOWN. Don't judge people on their stupidity.
You deserve an award. Seriously.
Also, K4U's role... "Anyway, yeah, you can share your abilities. I can send PMs to people through Edible once a night."
Oh my god that fake inventor thing was genius.
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...My god.
The PMs I received LITERALLY SAID 'You have received a message' as a title.
I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M SUCH A FUCKING IDIOT.
That said, the best use I've ever seen for a message sending power. Infinite kudos to K4U + Kefit for doing it, and then having HW claim tracker to go along with it.
bbl, busy beating my head against a wall. -_-
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No, Zent.
No.
You deserved to be lynched. You don't fucking excuse the bullshit you pulled.
I don't regret that lynch, merely that I couldn't slow it down in time. I MIGHT have figured out HW scum. MIGHT. But against Serela? Prolly not. And against you? Def not. I still tried though. That NEEDED To be thought through. There is, however, a small comfort that scum all had to pile on to get your lynch.
Now, with that vitriol out of the way, I apologize for calling you stupid.
You played mafia badly, but that doesn't extend to the rest of your mental faculties. Quite frankly, it's just that mafia is unlikely to be your game, though you could give it another shot if you think you can learn from your failures.
Mountain is cop-less, right? I don't really like investigative roles, they make mafia too easy. I will agree that 4 scum was too much, but if I had brought it to 3 I would have removed one or both of the kills, substituting the vig for something like a limited doc.
Mountainous is power role-less
So, you DID have power roles. Trouble is, Vig brings lylo QUICKER. And didn't an obv townie have to be LYNCHED to get a vig shot? Do you realize how bad that is? You basically are allowing a situation where D2 lylo is possible.
If I misunderstand, I apologize. Even so, an (up to) two shot vig in 9:4 isn't good.
That said, I agree that cops are cheap. Other investigative roles aren't as bad. Tracker and Watchers are pretty good. But remember, Watchers are OP in role madness. Trackers are OP in a game with few roles. A watcher would have been FAR superior to the vig though, and POSSIBLY made this thing close to balanced with 10:3.
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I just realized K4U had a PR
/me slaps Edible
What the fuck were you thinking?
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And didn't an obv townie have to be LYNCHED to get a vig shot?
Nah, just killed. Alice would have had a kill today had he bothered to play yesterday, and he had correctly deduced three scum.
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I'm actually curious if K4U was right when she warned me that claiming could possibly mess me up (in the case that Rou called BS on her "inventions"). She would have targeted Rou even if I was a real tracker, but meh.
Goonie Bird is still my favorite role name.
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Ok.
SLIGHTLY better.
In fact, has a charm to it. I may actually consider doing something like that in the future. It's another way to reward good play. Get NK'd, enable another role.
It also forces town to work more as a team.
It's actually pretty awesome as a WEAK collection of power roles. The trouble is, in 9:4 (remember, two OR LESS mislynches allowed), with a weak SCUM power role, isn't good.
Weak scum power roles are STILL more powerful than the same role on a town. They can organize with it. Now, I know the powers weren't mirrored. I'd say the vig is (dear God, UK saying something like this?) too swingy to work in a 9:4 game. Even with the fact that it needs to be charged with the death of certain roles.
Honestly...10:3 with the same set up and giving scum the message sender actually could be a quirky and enjoyable game. 9:4 was too much.
All balance concerns aside, town honestly deserved to lose. And I'm not exempt from that. Yes, I did start to get my act together in end game (seems that happens a lot), but it wasn't enough, and the rest of the town wasn't going that far. And I can't blame them given the events. But the blame is spread enough through the town so I'm comfortable saying even with better balance this game would have been a town loss.
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Oh god no.
Sorry, this game just got worse
I'm Kefit, Mafia Jew Shield Goon. I have the ability to block a shot from killing me (meaning a vig is pretty much confirmed). Meta excuse is that I use Moogy as a shield or something along those lines (I dunno, that's what the role PM says). Either way it only works once.
You had a vig...AND YOU GAVE A SCUM BULLETPROOF AGAINST IT?
So, let me get this straight. Scum had TWO power roles, one of which EXPLICITLY makes a town PR worse...and you had 9:4?
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I...
SEE?! I WAS TOWN. Don't judge people on their stupidity.
I'm not going to blame you for our loss, but you are a complete moron in terms of mafia and I feel -no shame in saying this-. It is very apparent you should have never come to this game.
Mafia simply isn't the game for you, sorry.
Also, Drop your indignation over this. You -were- a liability to town the entire way through, and I'm fairly sure you realize this.
The obvtowns were basically masons once massclaim occured. The confirmability on it's own was pretty decent, and I was HOPING a scum would try to get in the group, but if not I was going to take Chaore as town.
Masons? Say what now? I'm curious as to what you're thinking here, UK.
...My god.
The PMs I received LITERALLY SAID 'You have received a message' as a title.
I CAN'T BELIEVE I'M SUCH A FUCKING IDIOT.
That said, the best use I've ever seen for a message sending power. Infinite kudos to K4U + Kefit for doing it, and then having HW claim tracker to go along with it.
bbl, busy beating my head against a wall. -_-
I was wondering where this was, given how bard's role was sent to me in HimeMafia.
I'm not sure what to say on this, but don't blame yourself too much Rou.
I do find it amusing the the flavor me is exactly the same as I was my first game, though. (Inb4 Edible 'That was unintentional.')
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Masons? Say what now? I'm curious as to what you're thinking here, UK.
Not really masons. But townies who were more likely to confirm themselves to each other.
Two obvtown claims in a sea of townies would have gone pretty well, especially if the Limited vig were alive.
It's farfetched, but the power potential is decent, honestly.
But, it's still a weak power role (all three) BECAUSE that power potential is hard to reach. Nerfing the vig with a bulletproof scum just...boggles the fucking mind.
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I do find it amusing the the flavor me is exactly the same as I was my first game, though. (Inb4 Edible 'That was unintentional.')
I'm just still mildly amused that Alice's flavor role was himself. :V
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Regardless, I actually liked the gambit with K4U's ability and my fakeclaim. Shame it never actually got used for anything, would have been a more satisfying conclusion than the scum triangle attack dogpile.
Edible: Is there any chance you can post the role PMs? I'm curious :V
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After seeing what fascinating roles this game had, I can't stop thinking of fun set ups to do. Maaan, I need to get better at Mafia and sign up to host a game sometime. Although I'm still on the fence about if my first gimmick role idea is too extreme.
But yeah, this game was ridiculously unbalanced. 9:4 sounds cruel in the first place; on top of that, town's only special role was a Vig that required townies to be lynched first, there was a bulletproof scum anyway, and then K4U's massive mindscrewing ability.
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Yeah, the BP was a bit much, but as it happens HW was the one scum Alice didn't catch anyway! Haha.
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If it makes you feel any better, Neo, you probably played the best out of the three newbies even if you did make enough terribad mistakes for me to pull out some BS case on you that I came up with on the spot during D2
Furien is a bro for sticking with us even after messing up a lot, though. The scum quicktopic was much more fun to post in than the actual game and like I said, I would take the entire scumteam out for burgers if I could.
Also
Edible: Is there any chance you can post the role PMs? I'm curious :V
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This is the only song I can find that can contain my :< for this game. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECLskV5gk2I)
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Maybe later, they weren't interesting anyway.
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Happy coincidences do not balance make.
But whatever. I'm honestly willing to accept this loss DESPITE the ridiculous unbalance. We fucked up. Period.
Though you have halfway inspired me to write a Balance 101 article for future mods. I just don't think I'm good enough at mostly vanilla games to do it right.
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Halp, how do i lynched Townie? ;_: That basically sums up how I played. I didn't know what to do so I lurked. A lot. I really did have something I needed to work on (because faking V/LA is lame), but I could have kept up my D1 activity. I died a little inside when Carth said I was probably town. I need to work on my scum play badly.
I agree the set-up was kind of imbalanced. When I saw how weak the scum PRs were I thought the town PRs would be fairly weak as well, but they should have been stronger than they were.
I am officially a believer in Lynch all Lurkers. Seriously, it's the most kickass scum tactic ever because everyone's afraid to call you out on it and you don't have to say *anything*.
I liked my ability. I spent a pretty good chunk of time going through the Invasion role PMs to get a feel for Edible's flavor so that it looked like he wrote it so that it would actually look somewhat legit.
Masons? Say what now? I'm curious as to what you're thinking here, UK.
When I realized Carth was "supposed" to be me I thought you were masons as well. Kitten4u being a mason with Roukanken made a lot of sense.
GG guys
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The Obvtowns as masons would have been pretty interesting.
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That would have sucked for Furien since I got him to fakeclaim obvtown :V
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And made it slightly fairer. Honestly, the vig and obvtowns being masons would have been best. It would have basically assured that their power potential was reached, given a strong voting block to town, which would counteract the vig nerfing a bit, and actually be strong enough so 9:4 scum isn't evil.
Anyway, some irritating things have come to my attention. I have made my suggestions to the relevant person, and am willing to present them to the other relevant people. There's no need to...introduce my feelings on the matter here.
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When I realized Carth was "supposed" to be me I thought you were masons as well. Kitten4u being a mason with Roukanken made a lot of sense.
I'm pretty sure that mason pairing did, in fact, actually happen in RKS (though Rou was a replacement). I know you were part of a mason pair there at least.
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Not really masons. But townies who were more likely to confirm themselves to each other.
Two obvtown claims in a sea of townies would have gone pretty well, especially if the Limited vig were alive.
It's farfetched, but the power potential is decent, honestly.
But, it's still a weak power role (all three) BECAUSE that power potential is hard to reach. Nerfing the vig with a bulletproof scum just...boggles the fucking mind.
Not entirely sure, even then. We look a good deal like scum buddies that way. Even if Alice -did- come in, I expect we may've been suspected as a triad of scummies.
Without Alice? Well... I'm interested how Carth would've reacted in Lylo. But we stand out, as you pointed out at the start of lylo.
We've also no reason to trust eachother either. We also knew shit all about our role, and really scum!Obvtown would've stayed hidden safely or damned us all unless he did something stupid we could catch him up on.
When I realized Carth was "supposed" to be me I thought you were masons as well. Kitten4u being a mason with Roukanken made a lot of sense.
GG guys
Was mostly a post game question, really. Seeing as when she posted that she knew what we actually did.
But before Edible revealed our use, I -did- consider fake claiming that Obvtown was a mason pair. It would've made an interesting wit battle. I realize that me and Carth hardly worked together though, so calling me out on it would be easy as all shit. I also didn't know if there was another obvtown or what though. Would've waited for all claims.
I'm pretty sure that mason pairing did, in fact, actually happen in RKS (though Rou was a replacement). I know you were part of a mason pair there at least.
This would've been hillarious with a RKS Flavor Chaore toss. So damn obvious.
That would have sucked for Furien since I got him to fakeclaim obvtown :V
After Edible made the reveal, if he didn't, I would've expected scum to leave it be then strike at me for it.
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I must admit I was pretty surprised when I learned that I had three scum buddies.
I learned a couple of things this game. Namely that being scum isn't very fun and also that I suck at it. Ironically, I had to kind of force the lurking. I wanted to post more d1, but figured if I did that people would go "omg wtf is Kefit doing lynch lynch lynch." D2 was a disaster though. I spent a couple of hours trying to plow through the initial Rou vs UK stuff and post something, but eventually gave up. It probably would have been more intelligent to just jump on Serela instead of OMGUSing Rat, but Rat's sudden change of topic STILL strikes me as odd. Also it was hilarious seeing Rat eventually OMGUS me back. His flip was the icing on the cake.
Also, I still don't see how lynching all lurkers helps to win games. If you have an established meta of lynch all lurkers then sure, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. As it is it seems to be a crapshoot, as Alice kindly demonstrated for us. I don't really support lurking, as it goes against the spirit of the game, but I'm not convinced that calling for lynch all lurkers in one game out of three is a good way to either stop lurking in general or help town to win.
Anyway, I'm not terribly happy with this win. The last minute rush was fun, but we really didn't deserve it. The game was unbalanced and, aside from huhwhat, we all played terribly. Then again, town didn't deserve it either. I'm really not happy with the attitude taken by several people this game, but I'll hope for a brighter cleaner tomorrow!
Looking forward to the next game. Hopefully I don't roll scum again >_>
ps our scum topic was the bestestest <3
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ps our scum topic was the bestestest <3
<3
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ps our scum topic was the bestestest <3
This + everything above it basically.
I hate scum. :<
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Also, I still don't see how lynching all lurkers helps to win games. If you have an established meta of lynch all lurkers then sure, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. As it is it seems to be a crapshoot, as Alice kindly demonstrated for us.
I'll let Alice handle this in full himself if he wishes, but suffice it to say he has admitted he deserved that lynch.
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Oh right. I forgot about this.
Most deserved apology: Kilga, because we NK'd you D1 on the basis that "he's Kilga and he's scary"
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Most deserved apology: Kilga, because we NK'd you D1 on the basis that "he's Kilga and he's scary"
Most deserved apology to scum: Kilga, because I knew you'd NK him D1 on the basis that he's Kilga and he's scary.
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Yeah but then Kilga just came back as a confirmed town. I'm certain that Edible was just waiting for that to happen.
My poke at Kilga d1 was with done with the hope that it would look weird if I poke Kilga d1 and then kill him n1. I guess it doesn't work like that. Of course, Kilga's ghost coming back didn't help matters any. This isn't the first time I've given Kilga a retarded d1 poke though, maybe I'll continue to do it just for fun.
EDIT: oh hi Edible
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I don't even know why but Kilghost really made me smile. Even before it was explained. Kilgamyon~
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Kilgamyon made me panic a lot at first :V Though the first time I saw it I thought he was a bulletproof for some reason...
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Phew. Okay, I'm better now. Anyway, I have to apologize for just how bad I made this particular game. but despite this, it was a particularly interesting learning experience, and actually is the main reason I joined this game - to see if I was Mafia material, and I got my answer. Sure, it may have been "no", but still.
Despite my obvious stupidity and griping, I'm happy I joined this.
...If I ever do Mafia again, it'll be some time, or as a GM.
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GUYS, I'VE FOUND AN AMAZING REVELATION
If this is inaccurate I blame the nazis.
Zakeri (5): Kilgamayan. Roukanken, Serela, Zentillion, Kefit
Chaore (1): Kitten4u
Furienify (1): Alice Margatroid
Serela (1): Chaore
Zentillion (4): Furienify, Carthrat, UncertainKitten, huh what
Roukanken (1): Zakeri
Around 24 hours remain.
##Vote CARTHRAT, HITLER OF LURKERS for ruining Edible's votecount
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GG to HW and Rat. Everyone else...yeah..
Refer to bofh's sentiment after Invasion for mine.
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I make absolutely no claims to be a magical mafia diviner, and I won't make this claim in the future unless huh what also turned out to be scum in this case.
I'm a Magical Mafia Diviner!
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I'm a Magical Mafia Diviner!
Your avatar is so fitting for that :V
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Wow, that was a fast game. :V So town's only powers were a conditional vigilante and someone who keeps yapping after they die?
What did scum get?
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<bofh> I will give MoTK Mafia one more chance.
That's what you said how many games ago? :3
Read over the IRC log. So everyone's made their apologies and had tea. I want to hear no more whining from Rou. Seriously just STFU because if you want to wallow, go do it in mud.
bofh already went over the theory and whatnot. I don't get why he wrote up a guide to playing scum when one for town would have been way better :P
Cut: Scum got a BP and messenger.
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Haha, yeah, it's like both parties were completely roleless.
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And I'll need the full setup for the archives
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Haha, yeah, it's like both parties were completely roleless.
I dunno, I made the messenger role somewhat useful. I basically gave Rou a fake PR which would have made it 1v1 where both sides were actually town. It doesn't *sound* very strong, but if used right it can actually be somewhat deadly.
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The bulletproof, on the other hand, was pretty much a non-issue. huhwhat wouldn't have needed it and it was a trap for us anyway.
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bofh already went over the theory and whatnot. I don't get why he wrote up a guide to playing scum when one for town would have been way better :P
Because at the time Scum had a series of games in which they were sucking, and I am far, far better at playing Scum than I am at playing Town. My Town game has since then improved (that document was written nearly a whole year ago), but it's still far behind my Scum game in terms of skill. Anyway.
That being said, I am in the middle of writing an analogous document for Town strategy/play. It really aggravates me that 95% of what I am writing in it is literally either just basic common sense, or something that Town here really should have seen as it's the reason they've been chronically losing games here for the past year or so and not to mention something that I've been yelling at them over since approximately January, but yeah. If it will finally get people to listen, then that's great. And if not, then I always have the DL to play mafia at, and they're actually, y'know, competent at this game. :P
Anyway, onto discussion/analysis of the current game:
First off, I apologise to everyone. I didn't deserve the D2 lynch. More to the point, after I had shown up and started contributing, had I finally followed through and made a proper case on someone (and it likely would have been Kefit now that I think about it, principally over the piss-poor reasoning of "well Carth is totally Scum because he managed to direct Town down a direction of lurkerhaet", which is piss-poor reasoning due to the fact that before said post TOWN HAD NO DIRECTION WHATSOEVER. Anyway.) I could have turned the game around, especially considering I had largely gotten the bandwagon off me and the last remaining relevant person on my bandwagon, i.e. Carth, would have moved off it as well (especially had I gone after Kefit before him, and if I had gone after, I would have completely agreed with him).
Instead, I had realised that if I simply went straight back to lurking, this would instead give credence to Carth's case on me (i.e. I really was only showing up due to moderator pokes and then saying the bare minimum to get any bandwagons off of me), and even if it didn't, either Town Apathy would force a vote for me as I had the most votes out of anyone still, or I would simply be modkilled at the end of the day for inactivity, and thus I wouldn't have to deal with this game that at this point was so painful and aggravating that I could barely force myself to read through a single page thereof, and having a role that (at the time) was completely worthless but had it not been for (what I thought at the time to be) a fairly stupid restriction, incredibly useful, didn't help.
And thus I basically let myself get lynched. I am not even remotely proud of this move on my part. In fact, I'm still mad at myself over it, considering just how many times I've bitched at people that "if you don't want to play the game, don't /in!". Quite honestly, I deserve several bad things said against me - what I did was incredibly selfish, and accelerated Town's loss when I could have seriously turned things around for them instead.
That being said, Town played absolutely atrociously. Some things stand out:
- Guys, Zent is Town. He is playing terribly. Like, blatantly awfully. If he were Scum, he had buddies. This means one of two things: either they would force him to run ANY AND EVERY POST HE ATTEMPTED TO MAKE BY THEM, and correct it before approving it being posted, or they would turbobus him as not only would he give them absolutely MASSIVE amounts of TowniePoints(TM), but he was also potentially a HUGE liability in terms of his level of play - he could inadvertently link himself to a buddy and then that buddy could potentially go down with him, which would be far more terrible for Scum than just losing Zent. Seriously. Remember wrathie in GWU Mafia - he played equally terribly if not even worse. And by LYLO, both Affinity and u? had (correctly) ID'd him as Town for pretty much the above reason.
- Trying to attack me for what I did at the end of D1 is utterly moronic. Most of my reasoning can be found in my argument with UK, but in the interest of not torturing everyoneforcing everyone to read through that mess, I will restate it in a nice, succint fashion: Scum want to get Townies lynched, and not attract attention to themselves. Both Zak and Zent were wagons which were pathetically easy to jump onto, as evidenced by K4U's L-1 vote for Zak that iirc only myself and Kilga actually ever wound up bringing up. Given that I had my choice of "delicious Townie" or "delicious Townie" to lynch, then I am not going to awkwardly try to claim that I will lynch someone, then not do so, leaving my vote sitting on a third person who had no chances of being lynched. It fails both the first and the second goal of Scumplay - it attracts a lot of undue attention onto me, and it makes lynching Townies harder because now they have one less Scum vote on them. In short, it is absolutely moronic as a Scumplay, and thus not one any even semi-competent Scum would make - it's just dumb. Which is not to say that this absolves me from being Scum, just that it isn't a Scumtell.
- K4U, Kefit and Furienify were all Obvscum and I'm severely disappointed that none of Town picked up on them until it's too late. I'm also extremely aggravated that everyone is stating that they really should have seen K4U and Kefit, and only those two, when Furienify was more Obvscum than both of them combined, and considering that K4U played lurkerscum to levels only comparable to my early play on this site, and Kefit made the most terrible case against anyone that I've seen in awhile (that some of you even bought! Shame on you, seriously.), that's saying something, but look at this: D2 he was totally worthless, and D1 he said a lot of words but virtually no content. And really, the fact that he started the Zent wagon was irrelevant: not only was it done very shortly after the jokevote phase ended, but starting a wagon is only a good defence against being Scum if the wagon is on A Scum., and even then it's not perfect, because lol bussing. It showed Town that he had An opinion, A Single One, but even that one was so insignificant that it could safely be ignored in terms of his contributions, especially considering just how many posts he had made since then. Lurking is Scummy - in fact, ScummiEST behaviour, to quote InSovietAlex. However, Active Lurking is even Scummier, because while Lurking has excuses (RL, computer exploded/internet is down, power outage due to squirrel treating a pair of electrical wires as food, etc), Active Lurking has literally no excuse, because not only does it show that you are saying nothing and thus we cannot glean anything off you that can be used to determine alignment, but it shows us that you have no excuse for not doing this, as you have more than enough time to make not just one, but SEVERAL posts in the game per day that are utterly devoid of any useful content.
Anyway, now for things directed at specific people:
NeoSerela: IF IT IS LYLO, YOU DO NOT VOTE UNTIL EITHER THE TOWN HAS MADE A FINAL DECISION THAT AT LEAST THE MAJORITY HAVE AGREED UPON AND HAVE DECIDED TO FINALLY PLACE THEIR VOTES, OR IF THE DEADLINE IS SO CLOSE THAT YOU ARE FORCED TO VOTE, NO MATTER HOW GREAT AN INDIVIDUAL'S TRANSGRESSIONS MAY BE AT THIS TIME IN YOUR EYES. Seriously.
Roukanken: shut the fuck up, stop whining, give yourself a good, solid kick in the arse, and actually improve yourself. You are capable of playing this game at a high level, I've even SEEN you play this game at a high level as Town multiple times so far now, so quit whining, quit making up cheap/worthless excuses, quit being a lazy asswipe and improve your play. I KNOW you can do this, so seriously, just do it. You know what is wrong with your play as Town, you know how to fix it, the only thing left now is to fix it. So just fix it! Seriously.
UK: Oh boy. There will be a full separate discussion with you over several issues later, after Myself/Kilga/Edible/Pesco finish deliberating on some things, but could you please stop attempting to brag about what you would have/should have done when you really didn't actually do anything? I'm surprised it took you until the NK to note that Kefit and K4U were likely Scum - and attempting to glean into from NKs and solely NKs *is* a pile of WIFOM simply because quite often Scum really can get away with NKing via RNG on this site and still win! (I would know, I've done that multiple times as Scum on this site by now :V)
Zent: If you're always going to play this horribly, don't join another mafia game. Not saying that you shouldn't at all, but you really need to have your playstyle improve by several orders of magnitude, and rapidly, because as it stands, the only player worse than you that this site has seen (outside of The Game That Does Not Exist, of course), is wrathie. And wrathie is, to put it succintly, erm...wrathie. So yeah. Play at that level seriously is nothing more than a distraction to Town, and I had actually attempted to vig you D2 before getting clarification on my role that the whole Obvtown dealie was not just flavour but rather an explicit game mechanic. Oh well.
Edible: 4 Scum in a game this size is seriously imbalanced - it should have been 3, especially given MoTK Town's level of ""skill"". That being said, apart from that, the setup *was* quite balanced, and I actually quite like the mechanics of my role, even though they were quite aggravating yesterday. So yeah, the setup wasn't a total failure, just needed one less Scum in it :P Also, you need to post moar voetcounts so that Kilga/Zakeri/etc don't have to do it for you. :P
Kefit: LALu is not a crapshoot. Specifically, it wouldn't have even applied to me had I not given up and continued playing the game after delurking, because that is the difference: I explicitly delurked (as I now had time for the game) and then had said things of value, whereas you and K4U had both kept up the same low level of activity throughout all of D2, and said only either garbage or painfully bad cases and nonsense when you did actually wind up posting anything. That being said, you didn't play terribly for your first game as Scum in 6 years, so don't be too hard on yourself. :P
h_w: Considering both myself and Pesco think you deserve the Town MVP to some extent (in actuality, Town MVP is either Kilga or Carth, and both deserve it, really) when you were Scum, you played quite well. Hope to see you in more games on this site.
Kilga: You deserve a lot of praise for sticking around in this game not only after you had died, but even after the game became nearly unplayable around the middle of D2. Seriously. That and for the fantastic postgame content~
Carthrat: Again - you made some critical errors in your play (and you were dead-on correct in what they were when I talked to you in PM), but other than that your logic was, as a general rule, sound, and you were probably one of if not THE most competent players in this game. So yeah. Don't be too hard on yourself. :P Also, you similarly deserve praise for the fantastic postgame content~
Kitten4U: Thanks for everything.
To end this poast, I am going to say that I am going to give MoTK Mafia one more chance. One more. That is it. If the next game winds up being a repeat of this one, I am going to leave it forever, and I am sticking to that. I really like this place, it was where I first started playing internet forum mafia, and where most of my accomplishments and...shall we say, "sillier" exploits are. That being said, it has stopped being fun at all for me as both Town AND Scum, and I don't have time to waste these days given my typical academic schedule, so if it's going to take up time AND not even be remotely fun, then yeah, I'm seriously just not even going to bother with playing on this site anymore.
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surprise side effect as to why lal is good
scum like to lurk, pretty much always true. Lynching a lurker gives you a good shot at getting them BUT
Even if you're wrong you're killing some useless townie, which is.. whilst not good, probably the least bad result out there for a mislynch. you get maximal gain and minimal loss out of this style. mafia is as much a numbers and odds game as it is a mindhax game.
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As for the wonderful postgame content, here's the log that inspired it all:
18:05 <Kilgamyon> For postgame epix.
18:06 <Kilgamyon> [18:00:57] <Knight> THE ONLY THING THAT COULD BE BETTER
18:06 <Kilgamyon> [18:01:08] <Knight> IS ANOTHER SUB OF THAT STUPID MOVIE CLIP
18:06 <Kilgamyon> [18:01:18] <Kilgamyon> oh god yes
18:06 <Kilgamyon> [18:01:26] <Kilgamyon> Sub it about LAL
18:06 <Kilgamyon> [18:01:34] <Knight> YES
So, courtesy of Kilga and Rat (it's their idea and doing - I'm just the encoder/uploader), here is...MoTK Mafioso Mafia in a nutshell! (http://www.viddler.com/explore/Moriarty147/videos/1/)
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MoTK Mafioso Mafia in a nutshell! (http://www.viddler.com/explore/Moriarty147/videos/1/)
:V
The end was pretty funny. Afterwards I imagined "WHO'S THAT POKEMON" "IT'S PIK)ry except with Alice and town/scum etc. And then GOD DAMMIT ALICE WAS TOWN
But yeah, now I know I should be paying a lot more attention to what I'm not seeing from people, and not just what they ARE saying. Since I feel bad for ISOing K4U, huhwhat, and Kefit, yet not actually seeing anything wrong (this was before the LAL thing popped up since I hadn't realized that existed :V)
Although at least I thought Furi was suspicious during D1, although somehow I ended up forgetting about that as D2 rolled around ;-;
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Now tell us what you've learned from bofh's post. That's the most important thing ya'know.
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That was pretty damned hilarious and well done (the special post game content)
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surprise side effect as to why lal is good
scum like to lurk, pretty much always true. Lynching a lurker gives you a good shot at getting them BUT
Even if you're wrong you're killing some useless townie, which is.. whilst not good, probably the least bad result out there for a mislynch. you get maximal gain and minimal loss out of this style. mafia is as much a numbers and odds game as it is a mindhax game.
While the numbers game stuff is true, I've never been a fan of treating Mafia as a numbers game where optimal play involves winning the most games over time rather than winning any one specific game. I like to play each game as its own separate entity to win, which makes reliance on odds much less attractive.
*has flashbacks to discussions on this subject from six years ago*
Anyway, I don't think my post against Rat was THAT bad. Rat's call for LaL definitely did bring about a change of focus, but what I missed when writing out my case was that temporal and emotional deterioration had largely eliminated the value that had been held by the previous Zent vs Neo focus. The key flaw though, and Rat did eventually bring this up, is that the case should have used Rat's behavior as a segue into a case against Neo, with an eventual vote for Neo. A vote for Rat was certainly pretty ridiculous there. I can't recall exactly what my thought processes were at the time, but it may have been that I wanted Alice lynched, and I feared that reopening the bandwagon against Neo would have prevented that. (oh hey I got what I wanted in the end rofl).
Also I just want to note that even Kilga and Rat both ended up voting for or supporting a townie lynch on both d1 and d2 :p. Kilga had the power to be really threatening, but I stopped worrying about him once I realized that he didn't have any desire to actually write a persuasive post. Rat was more threatening because he actually bothered to be persuasive, but he was just enough off the mark that we were able to neutralize him before he really got us into trouble.
Which brings me to a point I made a couple of games ago - the importance of writing persuasively. My case against Rat was somewhat ridiculous, but people bought it because I presented it persuasively. Kilga presented a lot of great reasoning on d2, as a confirmed townie no less, but people largely ignored him because his posts were not written in a manner which demanded the reader's attention or truly condemned his target. Indeed, Kilga's final post, which found three or four people scummy with an analysis for each, really just killed the impact of any of his individual cases. I think that Rat may have toed the border of being unduly aggressive at times, but this made other players listen to him!
In fact I had kind of been wondering how I would employ persuasion as scum. I thought it would be fun times for all. Instead I ended up squandering a good opportunity for it (early d2 Neo vs Zent) and wasted it on ridiculous late d2 stuff against Rat. Oh well. Maybe I'll use it better next time. Hopefully that won't be for a while though, townie detective work is so much more fun than scum scumminess.
ps I can't watch this MOTK EXCLUSIVE BONUS CONTENT until I get home from school :<
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Now tell us what you've learned from bofh's post. That's the most important thing ya'know.
If it's LYLO, that means that scum can force a lynch off of a single townie vote D:
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So, courtesy of Kilga and Rat (it's their idea and doing - I'm just the encoder/uploader), here is...MoTK Mafioso Mafia in a nutshell! (http://www.viddler.com/explore/Moriarty147/videos/1/)
I totally predicted it would be that after Kilga mentioned aegisub, but still, hilarious. gj Kilga+Rat.
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Kefit: I present myself the way I do because "assume scum -> find evidence" is not a valid scumhunting tactic, which is largely what speculation like "but what if this happened?" is.
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"assume scum -> find evidence" is not a valid scumhunting tactic
I'll modify that to "assume one person is scum -> find evidence", because assuming everyone is scum and then finding evidence works quite well.
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I'll modify that to "assume one person is scum -> find evidence", because assuming everyone is scum and then finding evidence works quite well.
inb4 Edible realizes what a good idea this sounds like and next game starts out LYLO on D1
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inb4 Edible realizes what a good idea this sounds like and next game starts out LYLO on D1
I'm not pesco, jeez.
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I'm not pesco, jeez.
How did you know I had a setup that put LyLo on D1?
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How did you know I had a setup that put LyLo on D1?
Because I was scum in it and won.
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i once had a game go into lylo on D2, but it was because town was fucking stupid. Regardless, there WERE some glaring flaws despite the things I put in place to protect against them ^-^;
I learned from this.
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Because I was scum in it and won.
I don't recall using it ???
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I suppose it isn't THAT bad of an idea, as long as you don't have a whole lot of players, and town has a few nice abilities. Maybe along with a pseudo-night phase at the start where Town can use their abilities and Scum can't NK yet. Because seriously, unless a Vigilante got lucky or something, you'd have to not mislynch for the entire game...
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I don't recall using it ???
Crawl, dude. <_<
Town was technically in LYLO the whole time!
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No. It's very bad
Crawl was timer based. You were not in LyLo for at least 72 hours.
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That's really only a technicality. >_>
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Kefit: I present myself the way I do because "assume scum -> find evidence" is not a valid scumhunting tactic, which is largely what speculation like "but what if this happened?" is.
The scumhunting tactic that you employ has nothing to do with the way you choose to present your case.
The problem is that you have to make other people listen to you and do what you say or your scumhunting is meaningless. I automatically assume that, when someone presents a tightly focused case against an individual, that this person has looked at each player during pre-post analysis and is now presenting the case that they find most compelling. Even if you must focus on several people or cases, it helps to interject some wit or styling to make your post more readable. A giant glob of short sentences comprising a case, while perhaps containing sterling logic, is not something that anyone wants to read or be impressed by.
I often employ Edible's "assume everyone is scum --> find evidence" strategy and then look for the cases that simply make the most sense. Perhaps I should state this more explicitly when I make my cases from now on that seem to rely to circular logic.
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@Kefit: There were 4 clear lurkers come day 2. 3/4 were scum. I happened to pick the 1/4 that wasn't. Also, people lynched that person because I was really persuasive.
So. I have faith in my strategy, and if I occasionally get fucked by not quite being nuanced enough or unlucky now and then, I'm fine with that, perils of mafia, etc.
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Yeah, I applauded your persuasiveness. Your posts were a great mix of good persuasion + good reasoning. I doubt I'll ever agree with lynching all lurkers (unless it becomes standard meta), but that was only one part of your reasoning through the game.
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Hahahahahahahahahahaha oh god. Kilga's SUPER MAFIA MYSTERY BONUS CONTENT redeems every negative aspect of this thread.
Yes, the video was so good that this deserved its own post.
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The scumhunting tactic that you employ has nothing to do with the way you choose to present your case.
The problem is that you have to make other people listen to you and do what you say or your scumhunting is meaningless. I automatically assume that, when someone presents a tightly focused case against an individual, that this person has looked at each player during pre-post analysis and is now presenting the case that they find most compelling. Even if you must focus on several people or cases, it helps to interject some wit or styling to make your post more readable. A giant glob of short sentences comprising a case, while perhaps containing sterling logic, is not something that anyone wants to read or be impressed by.
The alternative is to put forth an entire paragraph - possibly more - covering every single point I wanted to address, and more words are less likely to convince people of your case, simply because they aren't going to want to read all that shit. Attention spans will invariably wander. Look at the length of that post again. If I had discussed every single point I wanted to discuss about Serela in detail, then you could remove absolutely everything else and it would still be longer than it is now.
If I have to choose between deluge of pretty words and deluge of evidence, I'm going to choose the latter 100% of the time.
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I'm saying that it's possible to mix the two styles.
Mafia has some intriguing similarities to real world trials. While trial lawyers have been trained to think very logically, they must nonetheless couch their language in ways that have a meaningful affect upon their audience - the jury. The jury, while generally composed of intelligent and mostly rational human beings, is nonetheless a group of individuals placed in the uncomfortable position of deciding the fate of another person on the basis of incomplete information. They are vulnerable to persuasive techniques. Even judges in bench trials are vulnerable to subtle persuasive techniques and can have their mood towards a case altered by a sufficiently well presented argument.
One's position vis-a-vis other townies in a game of mafia is much the same. All of the evidence in the world isn't going to mean anything if the other townies don't care about it. While one's ideal may be that all of us ignore rhetoric, that is not the reality.
ps I just used "vis-a-vis" in an internet post without even thinking about it. What the fuck has law school done to me ;_;
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How would you have done it for that case, then?
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I would have cleaned it up stylistically. What you wrote is a strange mix of short, pithy sentences and long jumbled sentences. These need to be fleshed out and pruned for clarity, respectively. Make use of transitions to explicitly indicate that one point is leading into another. It is imperative that a persuasive piece read naturally; otherwise it will tire the reader, souring the audience towards your case. Ideally, the presentation of a case should employ a narrative that smoothly carries the reader from beginning to end. At any given point in the case I should have some idea of how a given piece of evidence ties into the story that you are telling.
Reading the post again, I suspect that it was largely written as a stream of consciousness as you reread the thread, which resulted in key implications not being fully explained. One important element of a persuasive legal document is that it always explains the implications that it brings up, because you can't count on your audience to make the connections themselves. In this case, I doubt that everyone agrees on, or is even aware of, every single scum tell that you may have seen in the scummy behavior that you pointed out.
The overall structure of the post - specifically, dealing with multiple cases - is more difficult to handle. Normally I'd just say to pick your best case and go with it. Learned appellate judges beg lawyers to limit the issues they raise to those that are truly important to the case at hand. However, I realize now that this was a unique case. You were a ghost, and did not know when you would disappear. It makes sense that you would want to get all your cases out there. I think, if I had been in your shoes, I might have separated each case into a different post. Or maybe I would have saved the weaker cases for a post made later on in the day, prior to the hammer. However, I will back away from this point, because I forgot about your ghost status at the time when I made the initial criticism.
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Actually, I think this stems into something else that the ghost status was irrelevant for. I believe that one should present all their information as they get it, partially because the earlier it comes, the more time people have to look at it, and partially because it can avoid parroting accusations. In this case, it probably would have been better to put the Serela case on top and then use my triple-dash dividers to indicate "Other Less Important Cases That Should Nonetheless Be Looked At". I tend to present multiple cases in a single post regardless of my life status, because I'm a firm believer in giving town the most time to form the most informed opinions.
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Linking here, in case anyone playing doesn't look through CPMC. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=5900.msg325767#msg325767)