Author Topic: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion  (Read 371704 times)

Tengukami

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #510 on: November 05, 2012, 05:43:43 PM »
The main problem with the declaration system is that, well, you have to declare them. Which means your opponent knows exactly what you're trying to do and can just play defensive until the timer runs out. From what I've seen of IaMP tournaments, spellcard declarations were only used for the healing they provided, and no one ever actually used the supers. Which, speaking as an audience member, is just sad. In SWR, where they can be used at any moment, there's less incentive to hang back and do nothing, which naturally creates more openings to actually use them.

During the last few seconds of the video, I believe I saw a spellcard being used with great panache. The fact that they don't seem to be declared is something I find refreshing, to be honest. People like surprises!

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #511 on: November 05, 2012, 05:44:54 PM »
You saying that just reminded me of Heat and Blood Heat. No one ever uses the supers, we just heal.
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #512 on: November 05, 2012, 09:38:39 PM »
I don't get this trend of people claiming authority on games they don't play  :]

IaMP supers are used extensively, just about every character changes their game when they declare.

Quote
During the last few seconds of the video, I believe I saw a spellcard being used with great panache.

Check out the red lifebar also, it is decreasing with time in some parts, but not others. This might be a declare after all.

Also, maybe something will happen if life is reduced to the red level? Red life tends to be where spellcards are activated in regular touhou games.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #513 on: November 05, 2012, 10:38:48 PM »
IaMP supers are used extensively, just about every character changes their game when they declare.

Check out the red lifebar also, it is decreasing with time in some parts, but not others. This might be a declare after all.

Also, maybe something will happen if life is reduced to the red level? Red life tends to be where spellcards are activated in regular touhou games.
If you watch the trailer, when Reimu uses her spellcard, she is nowhere near the red portion of her health, so its not a declaration. Maybe once you reach the red, you get access to beefed up cards, but that may be a bit problematic because the bigger beating you are dishing out, the bigger your red portion is. You're right, the red portion does mean something, but I don't think its as big as new/better spellcards because that would make the winning player unbeatable.
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #514 on: November 05, 2012, 10:39:39 PM »
I don't get this trend of people claiming authority on games they don't play  :]

IaMP supers are used extensively, just about every character changes their game when they declare.

I'm not an authority, just talking about games I've seen. I used to search youtube or niceo for tournament videos when I was bored. Then again, this was years ago so maybe the meta changed since then?

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #515 on: November 05, 2012, 10:45:57 PM »
Quote
If you watch the trailer, when Reimu uses her spellcard, she is nowhere near the red portion of her health, so its not a declaration

Not a traditional life gaining one (or Touhou shmup one), I just felt that since the red bar was decreasing, it seemed like IaMP's countdown timer.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 10:48:09 PM by Sprite »

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #516 on: November 06, 2012, 04:33:46 AM »
I would also love to see it if a super is declared about 1/2 a second after the super actually goes off. In too many situations does declaring the super in and of itself allow the opposing player to respond correctly. For example, you can never land Akuma's Shun Goku Satsu in a non-combo, because when you declare the super, the screen freezes for half a second and anyone who knows how to play will just jump over it.

Quote
During the last few seconds of the video, I believe I saw a spellcard being used with great panache. The fact that they don't seem to be declared is something I find refreshing, to be honest. People like surprises!

Yeah, spell cards don't seem to get declared. It would be great if that were the case. I never liked the way Immaterial and Missing Power declares spell cards. It took me a while to get used to it and I still find it awkward. I mainly declare just to heal and maybe throw a random super.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #517 on: November 06, 2012, 08:09:49 PM »
This blog-post seems to throw some more light on the game. Anyone wanna translate it?

http://www.tasofro.net/cgi-bin/tasoblo/tasoblo.cgi?no=62
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #518 on: November 06, 2012, 09:31:30 PM »
This blog-post seems to throw some more light on the game. Anyone wanna translate it?

http://www.tasofro.net/cgi-bin/tasoblo/tasoblo.cgi?no=62

Not gonna translate the whole thing, but the basic gist of it is that there are no ground mechanics at all, but the flight system isn't unrestricted either. It's not like Psychic Force where you can fly around freely. Floating seems more fitting for a Touhou game. Also, you should try it out yourself at Winter Comiket before judging it.

Nothing really surprising.

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #519 on: November 06, 2012, 10:42:50 PM »
For example, you can never land Akuma's Shun Goku Satsu in a non-combo

you can use it for punishes (forgot if it -- and which version -- is also unjump-able if done right in front of your opponent; SFA2 at least froze your opponent whenever they weren't blocking before super flashes) and kara-demons

I never liked the way Immaterial and Missing Power declares spell cards. It took me a while to get used to it and I still find it awkward. I mainly declare just to heal and maybe throw a random super.

the declaration mechanic in IaMP makes both players work for their declaration chance (one poster has commented on how it makes the opponent "know exactly what you're going to do", but if you manage to give yourself enough options -- to declare and to bait punishment attempts --, and also conserve at least one bomb -- the threat of using it vs. actually using it, as another option for your opponent to consider --, you shouldn't be caught as much, if you get the hang of your opponent's possibilities). Personally I try to gauge the average amount of damage my opponent can do in one combo and try to knock the opponent down or get an aerial hit then declaring. (most of the times if the opponent isn't far away for the fast far bullets, they can't tech and land a hit on you in time).

Supers have a lot of uses, that your opponent has to consider (as additional options); reversal supers (broom, spark, throw of atlas), melee supers that can hit you if you're airborne and spirit-drained (blazing star, blue sword), supers used for spirit-draining (final spark, royal-flare, gungnir, yin-yang orb, Suika's string, Meiling's orb) and more.
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #520 on: November 06, 2012, 11:00:01 PM »
Yeah uhh Akuma's Raging Demon is a lot of cases are instant grabs if you're close (his super is at least in SFIV, not his Ultra, but really good for punishes and comboing after focus attacks)

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #521 on: November 07, 2012, 12:37:01 AM »
This blog-post seems to throw some more light on the game. Anyone wanna translate it?

http://www.tasofro.net/cgi-bin/tasoblo/tasoblo.cgi?no=62
Compared to Psychic Force which has free air movement, this is closer to Astra Super Stars in which moving upward and downward function like jumping;
This was actually their very first idea for a Touhou fighting game.

You can find Astra tournament videos on Youtube.

Astra arcade version runs on ST-V which is exactly the same as Saturn, and also has a Saturn console version.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 01:10:05 AM by cuc »
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #522 on: November 07, 2012, 12:59:30 AM »
I'm hoping Miko and Byakuren is in this game, I am looking forward to this new Touhou fighter game.

I wonder who might be behind this incident? It will most likely be someone new (probably at least two people or even one person). xD Overall I'm getting really hyped.

I wonder if Kasen will be in the game?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 01:03:51 AM by AyaShameimaru »

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #523 on: November 07, 2012, 01:14:17 AM »
I wonder if Kasen will be in the game?
I doubt she would be there, although I would LOVE to see her in a game, ZUN usually tends to keep fan created characters out of the games. The only exception to that being GFW.
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #524 on: November 07, 2012, 01:16:59 AM »
I doubt she would be there, although I would LOVE to see her in a game, ZUN usually tends to keep fan created characters out of the games. The only exception to that being GFW.

Eh? Kasen is a ZUN creation, as were the Three Fairies. I'm not sure what you mean by "fan created" here.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #525 on: November 07, 2012, 01:18:22 AM »
I wonder if Kasen will be in the game?
I hope so P:

My want character cast for Touhou13.5:

Koishi
Nue
Kogasa(Gogo Parasol Smack)
Yuuka
Kasen
Yuugi
Eirin
Ichirin
Mamizou
Momiji
Characters from previous fighter games.

Well, pretty much we can guess Byakuren, Miko, Reimu, and Marisa will be in the game....

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #526 on: November 07, 2012, 01:21:40 AM »
Eh? Kasen is a ZUN creation, as were the Three Fairies. I'm not sure what you mean by "fan created" here.
Sorry that was my bad, I meant those found in literature. :derp: But now that you mention it, it doesn't seem that far fetched because ZUN made reference to Kasen in the game before.
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #527 on: November 07, 2012, 02:37:39 AM »
Sorry that was my bad, I meant those found in literature. :derp: But now that you mention it, it doesn't seem that far fetched because ZUN made reference to Kasen in the game before.

Well, supposedly she was considered as a possibility for the Extra boss in TD, but rejected in favor of Mamizou. Unlike the 3 Fairies or the Watatsukis, she's neither too strong nor too weak to appear in a game. On the other hand, she still has a lot of secrets that haven't yet been revealed in her manga (no matter how obvious they may be), so I think that would work against her being included.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 02:40:20 AM by Clarste »

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #528 on: November 07, 2012, 04:01:34 AM »
It's very not certain if he actually has WAHH plotted out for a finite number of issues like SSIB or is winging it, the big reveal aside, and would work with Tasofro making a story that takes future development into account, but by the time the game comes out WAHH could potentially be done or close enough to it that Kasen would have a chance.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #529 on: November 07, 2012, 06:16:41 AM »
You know what would really interest me...

If it turns out "big reveal" doesn't happen in WaHH at all.... but in Hopeless Masqurade! That would be a very interesting twist! (Kinda like how Fairy Wars and Oriental Sacred Palace are connected)

Also yes, Kasen is a ZUN creation. She just appeared in a manga only as of this point.
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #530 on: November 07, 2012, 08:47:18 AM »
Hmm it would not surprise me if the last boss had something to do with Christianity, seeing as gensokyo timeline is set around mid to late 1800's. It would fit the religious struggle during that time period

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #531 on: November 07, 2012, 10:54:52 AM »
Hmm it would not surprise me if the last boss had something to do with Christianity, seeing as gensokyo timeline is set around mid to late 1800's. It would fit the religious struggle during that time period

The Touhou series takes place in the present day, as can be seen from the wiki's timeline. (Interesting fact: all three of the fighters so far have taken place in summer. I wonder if this game will continue that trend.) I'd say that if Christianity is going to appear in the series it shouldn't be in this game, it feels like this should be more of a consolidation of the existing factions.

On gameplay, I have no comment, not being very good at the fighters at all.

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #532 on: November 07, 2012, 10:56:48 AM »
I pray to Lord God Almighty that there will be no Christianity in this game.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #533 on: November 07, 2012, 04:07:16 PM »
Sorry that was my bad, I meant those found in literature. :derp: But now that you mention it, it doesn't seem that far fetched because ZUN made reference to Kasen in the game before.
Aya is actually the first literature character to appear in the games.  Yes, she made her debut in Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red.

I pray to Lord God Almighty that there will be no Christianity in this game.
Me too.  While I'm not the most devout and religious Christian, I still get offended if anything related to Christianity get portrayed and used in strange ways.  Knowing the series, Christianity's portrayal will more than likely to be altered somewhat.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 02:07:11 AM by game2011 »

UTW

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #534 on: November 07, 2012, 09:47:17 PM »
With ZUN's inclination toward Japanese and Asian settings, the exception being EoSD and PC-98, of course, the version of Christianity he'd be more likely to use is skewed as it is. Importantly, it need not necessarily be focused on "mainstream" Western Christianity, either regarding Jesus, important biblical figures, or even the belief system itself (except in contrast to the Japanese belief).
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 10:59:51 PM by UTW »

Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #535 on: November 07, 2012, 10:26:45 PM »
Hmm it would not surprise me if the last boss had something to do with Christianity, seeing as gensokyo timeline is set around mid to late 1800's. It would fit the religious struggle during that time period
We've already our Youkai Jesus :D
ZUN usually focuses in asiatic religions so..... I think that isn't very probable but maybe ZUN can surprise us!!! (Or maybe he can put some Christianism references like Byukaren' backstory)
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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #536 on: November 07, 2012, 11:16:23 PM »
This blog-post seems to throw some more light on the game. Anyone wanna translate it?

http://www.tasofro.net/cgi-bin/tasoblo/tasoblo.cgi?no=62

今回は地に足をつけて戦う要素は無く
全てが上空を基準にするアクションスタイルです
ただ自由に上下移動できる訳ではなく制約が色々あるので
サイキックみたいなフリー移動のゲームよりは
上下にジャンプできるアストラタイプを想像して貰う方がベターですね。

This time, there's no combat that takes place on ground.
All the action takes place in the air, but there are various restrictions as to how high or how low you could go.
It looks very similar to the free movement in Psychic Force, but a better comparison would be the high-low jump mechanics of Astra Super Stars

^-- pretty much the only important thing worth translating, basically already been mentioned earlier.

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Tengukami

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #537 on: November 07, 2012, 11:44:53 PM »
Me too.  While I'm not the most devout and religious Christian, I still get offended if anything related to Christianity get portrayed and used in strange ways.  Knowing the series, Christianity's portrayal is more than likely to be altered somewhat.

I'm sorry, I was being a smart-ass (invoking "Lord God Almighty" in the hopes that Christianity wouldn't appear in the game) but I really, really hope it doesn't.

The Touhou series takes place in the present day, as can be seen from the wiki's timeline.

It's true Gensokyo takes place in modern times, but it's a world that's a bit of an anachronism - part ancient, part 19th century, and part modern. So there's no telling what form Christianity would take here. Might be interesting to see a Portuguese missionary youkai ... but fans Japanese and western alike would likely rage. Plus it seems very highly unlikely.

"Human history and growth are both linked closely to strife. Without conflict, humanity would have no impetus for growth. When humans are satisfied with their present condition, they may as well give up on life."

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #538 on: November 08, 2012, 02:16:23 AM »
oh my gosh i'm working on this game and i didn't even know it

[18:18] <mauve> this isn't hte right channel or anything
[18:18] <mauve> http://momijitocirno.sakura.ne.jp/remilia/uploader2/src/remy20737.jpg but is it just me or does the face art look really maullar-ish
[18:19] <@sibladeko> actualllllllllly
[18:20] <@sibladeko> hm idunno
[18:20] <FenixStryk> it's too blurry for me to decide
[18:22] <mauve> yeah i dunno it was just a thought
[18:33] <K> maullar secret tasofro member
[18:40] <MaullarMaullar> inb4 every character has a bondaged sprite

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Re: 東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion
« Reply #539 on: November 08, 2012, 03:19:52 AM »
Mima

/prepares the hateshield

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