東方心綺楼 Hopeless Masquerade (TH13.5) - Discussion

[Gpop]

Comparing how players are compared to AI isn't really the point of the characters, because AI is cheap no matter what because it can read you based on your own inputs. Hell, even pros have trouble against the hardest difficulty AI of any fighters.

[Ikari]

You have to take into account the actual player versus player though. Reisen had sick wakeup game because of that invisibility; jump into overheads, jump into double overhead, empty jump into low, empty jump into overhead...the invisibility itself was a great asset and we can't just balance based on the AI.

Still, if her ability in Hisou would just have been insibility it would've been useless. While you can trick to a certain amount the opponent, the bullet phasing thing is what made it worthwhile in my opinion.

I remember this game where Koishi was a playable character and during battle, she could go to a downed opponent, do Ancestors Sleeping Besides Your Bed (to deal damage) and then become 100% invisible. The thing is, she didn't just go invisible, her dash attack became a powerful AoE which summoned rings of spinning roses around her.

My point being, if Koishi had invisibility in a fighting game, please add a little extra.

[UTW]

Well, I really only mentioned the Ice Climbers because I wouldn't tolerate the Akis taking more than one slot, the Akis fighting like them is a funny image,  and there are a few other potential combinations that could use various gimmicks to differentiate between them. Not that I would actually expect it to happen for a variety of reasons. But the way I imagine the characters, you have Ichirin & Unzan (hitbox Ichirin basically), Seiga & Yoshika (switch), and Miko, Futo & Tojiko (albeit just an assist type like Sanae), all as different possibilities.

[Ikari]

I think we're bound to see a Yoshika X Seiga tag-team. We've never seen more than 1 solo Seiga spell and it would be silly to make them different characters as Yoshika is nothing but a (literal) mindless slave to Seiga's desires; It's not like Sakuya and Remilia, where one could have different intentions than the other while being her loyal servant.

[Jq1790]

If Koishi appears, I demand 4th wall breaking.

Now I'm envisioning Koishi hitting the enemy with an attack, then as part of its effect shooting at the person's actual life bar for the damage, instead of doing all of it to the opposing character.  Weird.

[Ikari]

Now I'm envisioning Koishi hitting the enemy with an attack, then as part of its effect shooting at the person's actual life bar for the damage, instead of doing all of it to the opposing character.  Weird.

You can punch your friend in real life too, it works wonderfully 

[game2011]

When did Koishi has to do with fourth wall breaking?

Anyway, I'm still convinced that at least the final boss will be a new character.  Chaos is happening in the Human Village, which is why the religious sanctions are trying to obtain popularity to calm down everyone.  Obviously, someone has to start the chaos first, and that "someone" is surely the final boss.

[Ikari]

When did Koishi has to do with fourth wall breaking?

Anyway, I'm still convinced that at least the final boss will be a new character.  Chaos is happening in the Human Village, which is why the religious sanctions are trying to obtain popularity to calm down everyone.  Obviously, someone has to start the chaos first, and that "someone" is surely the final boss.

Every game ever introduced at least one new character, save for FW and StB/DP. I can't wait to see who it is! With Forbidden Scrollery, we're bound to get another new one too.

Koishi is kind of the fourth wall breaking girl by excellence, due to the ''Koishi can rape your mind'' jokes. Koishi's Hell certainly pushed people toward Koishi's fourth wall jokes. The general idea is that she's messing with YOUR subconscious, like how Kogasa is actually surprising YOU.

[iK]

Mostly good analysis there iK. Good example of the ice climbers type are, well, the ice climbers. They were lackustre until people discovered the chain grabs and disjoints, but we all know how bad a solo ice climber is. Some of the characters from P4 arena (Yukiko in partixular) are a newer example of this type that work well, and some may consider the dollmaster type to be a subtype of this one. To be honest, I think such characters need to be high risk high reward just to compensate for the complexity, not easy low rewards just for existing. In general assist ype characters are high risk high reward: Sanae's game is crippled in comparison to others without her gods, Carl has the lowest hp in all of BB, Ange's normals have very odd spacing and her other specials are all telegraphed, etc. This shouldnt change with a iceclimbers like character, or else it's just boring. Lowrisk low reward, slow chipdown characters are boring to watch and play.

comeon tasofro, random yamame. Make me happy.

Ice Climbers are pretty low risk in practice. They are highly technically demanding though, and making mistakes gets them punished a lot, so they have either their mobility in Melee, or their walling ability in Brawl, to stay safely just in that golden range just far enough to avoid an attack, and just close enough to move back in and hit the opponent. That is what makes them low risk. How difficult the character is has no matter on what they are able to do.

I wouldn't say low risk characters are boring to play or watch, in the same series, the best characters in the game are so because they have so many safe options. I find it hard to call Fox, Falco, Sheik, or Peach boring to play. It's characters that lack safe options that are more boring, like Captain Falcon, who has to rely on waiting for his opponent to overextend themselves before he can start anything. He's a high risk character because he has so many combos that work specifically on him, so his game comes down to running back and forth hoping the opponent takes the bait and attacks too aggressively.

It works similarly for pretty much every other fighting game too, but I know specific examples for Smash since I'm so invested in the series. The only other metagame I've looked much into at all is Blazblue, where the entire game is momentum based and single hitconfirms lead into setting the controller down as you get comboed for 40 seconds, so that game also revolves around trying to stay safe and keep spacing since every little mistake has such a big impact.

Playing as safely and as intelligently  as possible is the inevitable conclusion of any metagame. Low Risk Low Reward means the game revolves around making these intelligent decisions more often. Making mistakes should always mean you'll be punished moderately, but when the entire game is high risk, high reward, the game revolves around who makes two or three small mistakes first. And when humans are playing, there are bound to be mistakes made- not quite randomly, but with still a low degree of control over the environment such that it really does come down to a single accident leading to absurd punishment. If someone really wants the epitome of high risk, high reward, there's always Dive Kick

But yeah, I value a high degree decision making leading to many individual hits and smaller rewards, since instead of the game being delegated to who hits first, it comes down to who can consistently make smart decisions multiple times. That's probably another part of why I like Soku and Smash so much, and why I use a Lei-Lei team in Marvel in spite of her being crap tier.

+1 to random Yamame

[chema1994]

Another especulation that I have (actually it's a possibility that I take into consideration in every work that ZUN isn't the one making the drawings) is the insertion of MEN in the game. As much as I myself find it unkely , it is still a possibility and I welcome the idea of having more male humans/youkai with humanoid form in the touhouverse.

Unlikely since ZUN still makes the characters and Tasofro team just make the artwork and all we know that ZUN likes so much overpowered girls in his games

[Amraphenson]

Still, if her ability in Hisou would just have been insibility it would've been useless. While you can trick to a certain amount the opponent, the bullet phasing thing is what made it worthwhile in my opinion.

I remember this game where Koishi was a playable character and during battle, she could go to a downed opponent, do Ancestors Sleeping Besides Your Bed (to deal damage) and then become 100% invisible. The thing is, she didn't just go invisible, her dash attack became a powerful AoE which summoned rings of spinning roses around her.

My point being, if Koishi had invisibility in a fighting game, please add a little extra.

I would debate that. As a fighting game player, I debate that hard. If I have to react to a mixup, that's one thing. But if I can't see the actual mixup, that's another thing entirely. In terms of actual, competitive fighting gaming, real invisibility is an absurd thing. Soku and IaMP are weird in that if you wrong block you don't immediately get guard broken, but every other fighting game on the market is like that, and even still you get heavily punished for wrong blocking in Soku and IaMP.

When Reisen has you in knockdown, she has a lot of options to hit you with.
>low jump 2a (overhead)
>low jump 5a>6a (double overhead)
>low jump 5a>land>6a (double overhead but landed)
>low jump, does nothing in air, 2a or 3a when he hits the ground (low, possibly guardbreak if charged 3a)
>charged 3a (low guardbreak)
>charged 6a (high guardbreak)
this is ignoring the possibility of crossups, which are also complete guardbreaks.

I can react to most of those on sight, but if she's invisble I can't. And if I get guardbroken, she confirms into a full combo and we go into the Reisen blender again. The phasing was always superfluous because it was to be used after a knockdown anyway; work fast enough and they won't have time to use bullets.

From a non-competitive standpoint I do see where you're coming from though, but I'm deeply invested in comp fighting games and invisibility is one of the stupidest things to give a character. Arakune from BB stands out, except he stands out for other reasons too. (FULLSSCREEN PROJECTILES AND TELEPORTS CROSSING UP YOUR SHIT ALL DAY)

+1 to random Yamame

brofist. But I can't commentate on Smash, not a whole lot of knowledge on it. I wouldn't use it as an example to compare other fighting games though; most are like Blazblue where you get one bit of momentum and it snowballs, and most have mechanics to disencourage that sort of gameplay you described with Captain Falcon. (Negative from P4A and BB) Even street fighter is based on repeated situations that put you in a favorable spot, which is effectively the same thing just not classified as a 'combo'. The El Fuerte blender is really just a glorified combo, for example, and so would the Ibuki blender. If you want a high reward, you should get a high risk. If you want low risk, you get little rewards. Basic comboing in all fighting games reflect this; a 2a or 5a is always a bad combo starter due to proration, but a j5c is generally always a really great combo starter.

Low risk low reward is like watching Dhalsim, Nu, Ragna, or Valkenhayn. (Nu, Ragna and Valk are more low risk high reward though)
High risk high reward is like any grappler, which is hype at a high enough level where such characters are bad because everyone knows how to open them up. MikeZ taking tournaments with Tager, or any grappler using their grab super to make a comeback, for example.

The meta and mechanics of Smash is just in such a weird spot where characters like that are the more interesting ones to watch, whereas most other fighting games aren't. Low risk low reward is like...you can make more mistakes and it's like 'oh w/e'. High risk high reward means you're always on the edge of your seat, waiting for someone to fuck up. I don't want to spend eight to ten minutes in one first to five match, I want 40 second rounds of high action. HOnestly I don't suggest bringing smash into any sort of ftg comparison and discussion, you'll get laughed at. No joke.

tiers in marvel are bullshit, just learn your character and you'll open up anyone who doesn't know how to deal with anyone besides hawkeye/zero/vergil/wesker/doom/magneto/spencer/dormammu/etc. god my phoenix/strange/arthur team is silly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpuW-Mo3YTY
Take this. Four games of best to two, taking ten minutes in total. Guy is a high risk high reward sorta guy with a blender that he shows really well at around 0:45, while Dictator is low risk low reward with his scissor kick. Which am I rooting for? Guy. See that ExRun at the end that soaked up the scissor kick with it's super armor which led to an Ultra punish? That was ballsy as fuck, as high a risk as I've seen and fucking hype. Safe options make a character good, but make them too obnoxious and it's just boring. Strategic, yes. Hadoken spam is crucial to Ryu and Gouken and so on. But it doesn't make for interesting characters until will reach the hype involved with low tier vs high tier or bad matchups. Guile has literally two special moves, which is at the very least one less than everyone else, but he becomes really fun to watch when he's up against a bad matchup like...I forget. My SF is rusty.

Long story short, a low risk low reward scheme for ALL the characters or most will be bad imo. One or two being that way could be interesting, but BBCT had Nu, Rachel, and Arakune out of the...twelve? And that was boring to watch swarm all the netplay for months until CS came and smashed them all into the ground with the nerfbat. ('cept ara)

this has been your scheduled ftg faggotry by Amra

[iK]

Carl is also pretty low risk, low reward until absolute silly circumstantial setups happen; he gets that luxury by being so mobile while also having frametraps, without overly obnoxious rewards from it.

Make a cast of high risk high reward and you get a cast of skewed, lopsided, and polarized matchups because there's no long-term decision making that has to be made and every matchup difference is exaggerated to an absurd degree.

I dunno, I just prefer a game coming to several smart decisions made consciously and with consistency over two mistakes being ggpo. It also seems silly to me that the timer would be allowed to be 99 seconds if the "preferred" playstyle causes matches to be over in less than 30.

I think we're looking at the idea behind risk and reward as it applies to too many different archetypes. Dhalsim, Rachel, Arakune, and Nu are blatant zoning characters that, given that they could have their way, would stay in a single place for an entire fight  pushing the opponent out with their range.  Low Risk-Low Reward and projectile heavy/spammy characters are not one in the same. Any character that is highly mobile, or with safe options on block to avoid punishment at all low-risk as well. All Low-Risk means is that the character doesn't have to over-dedicate themselves and buy a wedding ring for their approach.

There's more to playing safe and keeping your options low-risk than playing keepaway, and the stigma associated with "playing lame/homo"   just sounds like excuses people make because they can't break through or counter the strategy. Instead of adapting or finding a counter-strategy, we just deem that kind of character or playstyle "gay," to still win in our minds, because that's the easier solution.

Personally, I find rushdown lame. I work so hard to try and spot each action to block in properly and poke and prod  and go for hard reads all game, and then you just rush in with a  muscle memory cookie cutter mixup and take off 2/3 of my health bar with a combo also sewn into muscle memory? The level  of decision making and amount of decisions to be made is so low when every time two characters with half-bar combos go against each other; neither one can make the right choice at the same time, so whichever makes the wrong first move is then put at such a disadvantageous position that they can potentially never recover in the match. At that point you may as well just play a round of Rock Paper Scissors to decide the winner.

But people like seeing that they did 83 consecutive hits and 1.2 Billion damage, so these kinds of things are always going to be prevalent in the genre.

Serious philosophical conversations about competitive videogaming going on in here.

[Gpop]

It ain't Mahvel if it ain't broke :V

At least it's more balanced than Marvel 2 :V

Also, the hell stop talking Smash here we all know the Smash series ain't a serious fighting game. lolseriouspartygames

[DX7.EP]

It ain't Mahvel if it ain't broke :V

At least it's more balanced than Marvel 2 :V

Also, the hell stop talking Smash here we all know the Smash series ain't a serious fighting game. lolseriouspartygames

So true :getdown:

For invisibility effects, I'd probably quote GG's Chipp - he has one such move in his arsenal, but is still quite visible when using that.

[Gpop]

In all honesty if Seiga would be a pair with Yoshika it'd be more than likely Yoshika will be used like Ran being used by Yukari. She's more of her familiar than anything.

[game2011]

Every game ever introduced at least one new character, save for FW and StB/DP. I can't wait to see who it is! With Forbidden Scrollery, we're bound to get another new one too.

I said that because some people think the plot for this game doesn't call for the need of new characters, since it's about the religious factions fighting for popularity, not someone starting an incident.  Either they missed out the chaos being caused part or think whoever caused the chaos won't be showing up at all.

Also, the hell stop talking Smash here we all know the Smash series ain't a serious fighting game. lolseriouspartygames

I absolutely love the SSB series, but I agree that isn't a serious fighting game, only a casual party game.  However, you should probably avoid saying anything about SSB not being a serious fighter in front of people who take the series seriously...  You can start a war just by bringing that up...

[Kanade]

My God... why not just release 14 instead of this fighting game?

I have nothing against playing fighting game but, Touhou fighting game is too hard to play compared to other ones.

And yes before you ask, I suck at fighting games and I hate most of them except for some good ones that are "beginner/nooby-friendly".

[Prime32]

My God... why not just release 14 instead of this fighting game?

I have nothing against playing fighting game but, Touhou fighting game is too hard to play compared to other ones.

And yes before you ask, I suck at fighting games and I hate most of them except for some good ones that are "beginner/nooby-friendly".

:wat: I have never been able to complete a main Touhou game, but I beat SWR and Soku with every character on my first try, working out the moves as I went.

What I'd give for the ability to destroy bullets by dashing through them in a danmaku game...

[Suikama]

My God... why not just release 14 instead of this fighting game?

ZUN probably hasn't worked on 14 at all with all the stuff that's been going on in his life. (wedding, books, drinking) The fighting game series aren't made by ZUN, so his business doesn't really interfere with it's production.

[BT]

What I'd give for the ability to destroy bullets by dashing through them in a danmaku game...

Oh, you destroy bullets that way. It's a Double KO.

[Zengeku]

What I'd give for the ability to destroy bullets by dashing through them in a danmaku game...

Play Ten Desires. It has a feature where you press C and then you can freely move through all the bullets you want. Can't exactly destroy them but you won't die and that's the important part right?

[SeasideCharizard]

I absolutely love the SSB series, but I agree that isn't a serious fighting game, only a casual party game.  However, you should probably avoid saying anything about SSB not being a serious fighter in front of people who take the series seriously...  You can start a war just by bringing that up...

Well, Smash is a fighting and party game by definition, and what you can use the term "competitive" (or serious in this way) on depends on a game's own community as far as I'm concerned.
Therefore, I would like to state that a game theory for fighting games based in Smash should not be completely ignored. However, one in a more traditional game is probably better to use in this case.

And how did that discussion even get from abilities to combos and in-depth character analysis to in-depth character type analysis?  :wat:
But it's the internet

I'm hoping for Nue, Ichirin, etc. to come in on Byakuren's side for this game. Nue'd probably be really fun to play with using those UFOs; perhaps delayed attacks that take the form of a UFO when initially put out? Mamizou can do something like that as well, or maybe specialize in creating an annoyance out of slowly-moving projectiles like one of R/Len's specials in Melty Blood. Though, my experience with fighting games isn't at too great of a level, so some of what I put out may be plain silly to others.

For Miko, perhaps a Seiga/Yoshika team of some sort, which has probably been brought up a bunch of times, and Futo. Seiga could maybe be more like the type to not do much herself and have Yoshika do most attacks for her, similar to Seiga's spell cards with Yoshika in where the threatening part of the bullets seems to usually come from her. Futo gets to have fun shooting arrows from an amazing boat and burning down shrines (and a temple).  :derp:

[Amraphenson]

And if we get a bunch of low r/r characters making up the cast we end up with minute long poke fests that don't end with anything interesting.

Let's talk another game, since I've long since forgotten anything related to Blazblue beyond the fact that everyone is high r/r at this point, and it works pretty alright. Risk isn't only in opening yourself up with bad recovery moves and badly timed mixups or minute long combos, it's also playing the character or being put into a mixup blender. I really disagree with you on Carl being low risk, because just playing him is opening yourself up to dying in two combos and no reversals beyond the easily punishable vivace roll. Offensively he's great, and that's the reward, but just being the character is the counter risk. Not to mention that he has one or two normals that are completely useless at this point (2c and possibly 6c)

Again, BB is mostly low risk high reward for most characters now. Jin is a good low r/r character, but he's not very good in comparison now.

MOVING ON, different game. Melty Blood. H-Kohaku? Low damage but amazingly good everything else. She puts you into the corner and you stay there over the course of many low damage combos due to how many mixup options she has. Each individual choice my be low r/r (in actuality high risk low reward), but the situation in general is high r/r. Once you block or react to the mixup correctly, Kohaku gets taken out. Melty is not a game of one or two long combos (unless C-Sacchin or F-Miyako), it's about momentum and continuously taking risks to further your momentum. You could argue that's low r/r, but in the long scheme it's high r/r. My main C-Nanaya is entirely based around that, and I'm taking a high risk just by being him because of his tools. I have no spacing tools, all my teleports are punishable, etc. Even games that aren't really fighting games like Dark Souls PvP are riveting because of high r/r; every move has a chance of being parried and riposted.

I can understand where you're coming from, being a Smash player where combos don't really happen to the same level. But other ftg players look at smash and get just as confused at all the one-hit=possible ko going on. With most other ftgs, not only is skill needed to hit, but to confirm and finish the combo. That's another risk.

Timers on ftgs are jokes at this point tbh and don't ever really conform to actual seconds.

[Ranko Hoshino]

Play Ten Desires. It has a feature where you press C and then you can freely move through all the bullets you want. Can't exactly destroy them but you won't die and that's the important part right?

Ramming bullets during invincibility frames also works.

Of course I'm excited about the new game too!

[Critz]

My main C-Nanaya is entirely based around that, and I'm taking a high risk just by being him because of his tools. I have no spacing tools, all my teleports are punishable, etc.

A character with an Another Arc Drive ridiculous enough to cover almost the entire screen (vertically as well), be unblockable/unshieldable AND take away half of your lifebar ain't what I would ever dare to call "high risk". I sometimes resort to Ciel's asshole counter if my sparring partner abuses it, since it comes out on top  :V.

And I was under an impression that Nanaya has better  neutral game that Tohno (wiki states he has more mixup and movement options), and unless I'm missing something, Tohno is basically Ragna. Adding Nanaya's evil pressure to that, I never noticed the risk to playing him, but I suck anyway. Just inquiring.

And I always felt that low risk and low reward characters such as Sakuya or Reisen are more interesting on account of their copious options for pressure and area control, as opposed to Okuu (and to a lesser degree Yuyuko), who have to fly around spamming and hope for their chance to approach, or counter stupid approaches.

[Amraphenson]

This made extremely small to stop wasting space on a Touhou fighter thread with talk about other fighters, but it's part of my argument. Also extremely easy to just dodge, shield, or backjump/high jump and immensely punishable afterwards. It's high risk because it's :fucking horrible: for what it achieves: ie a 4.5k damage thing I could've gotten with a normal EX-combo that wastes about 400% less effective meter. Also, Blood Heat? On a Crescent character? Using Blood Heat at all? I just denied myself 200% meter and the chance to go into Max again with only one combo. Arc Drives and Another Arc Drives are shit unless your name is Satsuki (absurd damage air/ground unblockable grab), Kouma (again grab and even then situational), HKohaku (burn the rest of your Heat for circuit break WHICH ALSO MEANS AD IS BETTER THAN AAD), or FArchetype Earth (same except we have MAX instead of Heat). Last Arcs are similarly situational and impractical; you burn way too much for too little. The fact that CIel doesn't even have to counter super to stop it says something about how 'good' it is.

Nanaya is :not: Ragna, his comparable damage output doesn't even come :close: and his game plan isn't even remotely similar. Nanaya can barely even break 4k on most moons without burning meter, and Ragna doesn't need to put half his effort into combos that Nanaya does, and Nanaya doesn't get the absurd Oki Ragna gets just by existing. Not to mention Nanaya, as I've been implying with everything above, isn't even a good rushdown character if he even IS a rushdown character.

Comparing Tohno's zoning to Nanaya's isn't entirely relevant because both of them really suck at getting in unless F-Nanaya with bullshit WARUI NE, but FNanaya pays for that divekick with either oki or damage. Your only real escape option once put into the corner is 623 kick, and everyone knows about that at this point in time. In neutral? What the hell are you going to do to make entry safe? Kouma has either 623a flame kick or his retardedly powerful 2b antiair, not to mention his Grab series and command dashes. VAkiha has an extra air dash and flame pits in addition to flametongues, Ciel has projectiles and better, safer movement, Kohaku has bombs/plants/etc...Nanaya is not a very good character in any situation but offensive pressure once he's gotten in.

Sakuya is :not: low r/r, she's low risk high reward. Watch any japanese tournament footage and you'll understand what I mean. Reisen, as I mentioned earlier, might be low r/r but as I mentioned with some of her bullshit involving 623 invis and her absurd blockstrings, which I didn't mention, she's also more low risk high reward. Soku in general is a bad example for this because much of the gameplay in general is low r/r until we get into close range, and even then you're not punished nearly as badly in Soku for a wrong block as any other fighter. (Though I know some argue how badly a broken spirit meter is, I'd certainly prefer that over a 3-4k confirm to the face)

I think there's a fundamental difference in what I consider low r/r and what you or someone else may. When I say low r/r, I mean a character that has mostly safe options that can confirm into low damage without much risk to himself, which is why I mentioned Dhalsim and Nu. These characters aren't necessarily zoners, though the archetypes do tend to go hand in hand because zoners are just safe; Erika from the Umineko fighter is another example of low r/r with all her amazing options to get in, but bad damage ouput. Some Melty characters are low r/r if you're just looking at damage output: the FKouma (...>6c>j[c]>j[c]>land623a) blender is somewhat easy to confirm on a basic level, but its reward is mostly based on the absurd okizeme FKouma gets off it.

well back on topic to Hopeless. What I'm hoping for is that everyone has a coherent gameplan that's interesting to watch and play, rather than just something like 'hurr durr I'm sakuya enjoy being double guardbroken half of the game and dead the rest', or 'hi I'm Iku good luck getting close to me'. I don't mind zoners really, or any sort of character. It's just boring when I watch a character win a game with no risk to him or herself because of how low risk everything they do is. Soku was just badly balanced.

and Yuyuko is also low risk high reward, have you seen the shit she pulls when she has you in the corner? One of Japan's top 10 Alice's got beaten by a Yuyuko that wasn't even ranked.

[Ikari]

While I agree Okuu is based on countering the opponent's errors, Yuyuko can, if used correctly, assault the opponent with a powerful and relentless assault of attacks. She's slow, yes, but unlike Okuu, can attack without getting punished at every attacks.

[Gpop]

I always thought Yuyuko was a keep-away/zoning character. She definitely has the tools with all the butterfly/ghost projectiles she can shoot at once.

[Ikari]

I always thought Yuyuko was a keep-away/zoning character. She definitely has the tools with all the butterfly/ghost projectiles she can shoot at once.

She can be a devastating close range fighter, if you memorize the moves. Most of her melee attacks summon huge pink butterflies, making the range very good and the hitbox stay much longer than, say, a kick from Reimu. You can throw around the opponent happily and then blast him with the 236 special. Her spellcards are also very useful at close range, easily countering and blocking attacks. She's a good keep-away character too, which makes her deadly.

[iK]

The best characters tend to be ones that don't have to stick to one playstyle. Adaptability is a huge factor that makes characters as well as players, do well.