Author Topic: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!  (Read 64299 times)

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Touhou Remix Day 4! Boosh.
« Reply #360 on: August 21, 2009, 12:13:53 AM »

The Twenty-First "Game Over" Vote Count

U.N Owen was Her?
 
Affinity (1): Serpentarius
Suwako Moriya (0)
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (3): Suwako Moriya, Affinity, Kiro

Not Voting (1): Zakeri

With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch
With 3 votes Serpentarius is lynched. Scene to follow.





UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Touhou Remix Day 4! Boosh.
« Reply #361 on: August 21, 2009, 12:27:05 AM »
5 people remained after Zakeri's performance...5 people, all suspicious of each other. Affinity and Serpentarius seemed to be having a very strange exchange when finally ZUN spoke up.

ZUN/Kiro: That's it! Serpentarius has ADMITTED to stealing my music, and I cannot abide by him living! He needs to die now!

He places the finishing vote.

Merlin/Serpentarius: I...tried to warn you.

she says sadly as she is strung up.

I eagerly snatch at her soul when she finally dies and analyze it...

Me: Hmm...Ooh, this is intriguing...

Serpentarius, Merlin Prismriver, Trumpteer Serial Killer Neighbor has been lynched D4

ZUN is mildly surprised at this, but still has a grin on his face.

ZUN/Kiro: Well, he was messing with the process anyway!

But then...Affinity and Suwako turn to ZUN

Affinity/IOSYS: Yes...he WAS getting in the way...for now we can eliminate YOU

Suwako/DJ Technetium: Yes...for years we have tried to rival your musical skill and somehow failed, merely being remix artists of your songs. But now...we've finally overcome you! We have your score and we can publish it with you out of the way!

Zakeri/dBu Music: No! You can't do that! What am I supposed to remix!

ZUN/Kiro: NOOOO! How dare you! You...two bit hacks! Even you IOSYS. I don't care HOW many losers try to give you credit for Touhou...it was all me! You BASTARDS!

Affinity/IOSYS: Well, we'll take care of everything...starting with you.

And with a couple bars of Marisa Stole the Precious Thing, ZUN starts to go mad...running into walls, going insane. I take it upon myself to blast him before he does something that hurts all of us.

Kiro, ZUN, Townie Drunken Original Artist, Endgamed and blasted with hellcat danmaku D4

Zakeri, outnumbered, tries his best to pull off another key change but it just sounds bad as IOSYS and DJ Technetium close on him, drilling madness into him with speedcore and bad flash PVs. Zakeri takes his own life to avoid the full extent of his fate...

Zakeri, dBu Music, Townie AWESOME shot dayvig, endgamed and suicided D4

The two successful scum then turn to me.

Affinity/IOSYS: Oh hey, could you do us a favor and return Innocent Key's soul? Even if his haiku are bad we need him for the grand scheme to take over ZUN's music

Me: Hai hai, just don't make me go batshit. I'm crazy enough as it is.

And thusly, the three mafia, Affinity, Suwako, and Sodium steal ZUN's music and ruin touhou forever.

BAD END #2


Role PMs and set up comments to follow.

Don't bitch til I'm done.


UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Touhou Remix Day 4! Boosh.
« Reply #362 on: August 21, 2009, 12:44:21 AM »
Quote
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Kiro. You are ZUN, Townie Drunken Original Artist

This is an example of your work.

As such, you have the following special abilities:

Drink: You may spend the night drinking some alcohol. It might get some creative juices flowing.
Investigate: You may spend the night investigating another player to see if they stole the score to your newest album.

NOTE: Sanity is not guaranteed

Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm in-thread.

Mod notes: This was essentially a screwed up every other night cop. The mechanic was ZUN had to drink the previous night to get a sane result, and if he was sober he'd get insane results. Kiro drank N1 so got a sane result on Alice N2, and directly went to investigate Serpy N3, getting an insane result. Yes, Serpy would have turned up innocent.

Oh yeah, he could also drink while jailkept.

Quote
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, 天使. You are Azure and Sands, Jazzy Jailkeeper

This is an example of your work.

As such, you have the following special abilities:

Jailkeep [MUSIC]: It's hard not to appreciate sitting in your hotel room listening to some jazz. You may target a player and they will not leave their hotel room for the night. Also, there's just something really cool about jazz that would distract anyone who might mean harm to your target. Therefore, you also protect them from night kills.


Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm in-thread.

Mod Notes: Pretty straightforward. Might have been an interesting game had this role not been lynched D1. Also, you may notice the music tag. This has relevance with other roles.

Quote
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Suwako Moriya. You are DJ Technetium, Mafia Entrancer

This is an example of your work.

As such, you have the following special abilities:

Annoyance [MUSIC]: You cannot be targeted because Cis Trance is rather annoyingly distracting
Buddies!: You are mafia with Edible, Innocent Key, and Affinity, IOSYS. You may talk to them outside the game at night.
Kill: Every night, you, Edible, or Affinity may make a kill. Your kill method is Beaten to Death.

Win Condition (Mafia): You win when the mafia control over half the votes.

Please confirm in-thread.

Mod Notes: dBu's POWER KILL could still shoot, since if Suwako were COMPLETELY impervious he technically couldn't be voted. Overall I think it was a nice godfather variant.

Quote
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Kerigis. You are Lyrica Prismriver, Keyboardist Townie Neighbor

This is an example of your work.

As such, you have the following special abilities:

Buddies!: You are neighbors with Serpentarius, Merlin Prismriver and Roukanken, Lunasa Prsimriver. You may speak to each other outside the thread at night. You do NOT know each other's alignment.


Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm in-thread.


Mod Note: I'd like to note that originally this was the only townie in the neighbor group. It was going to be a vanilla scum, the SK, and this. I was convinced not to do this by my reviewer, but I think if I run this set up again I'll reconsider that.

Quote
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Serpentarius. You are Merlin Prismriver, Trumpteer Serial Killer Neighbor

This is an example of your work.

As such, you have the following special abilities:

Buddies!: You are neighbors with Jan-san, Lyrica Prismriver and Roukanken, Lunasa Prsimriver. You may speak to each other outside the thread at night. You do NOT know each other's alignment.
Kill [MUSIC]: Target player will be killed. Kill method is Murder on the High Cs.
Pathetic: You play trumpet, therefore you are too pathetic to kill outright. Though this only seems to work once, as people get over it after listening to you long enough. You are effectively immune to being night killed once.

Win Condition (Third Party Serial Killer): You win when all other factions have left the game and you are the only one left alive.

Please confirm in-thread.

Mod Notes: I liked this role, and contrary to popular belief, I was COMPLETELY unfamiliar with berserk merlin before making merlin the SK. I just hate trumpet players for the most part :P. If I were to change it I'd likely switch the kill resistance with Suwako's and take out the psychologist, for reasons you will see.

Quote
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Roukanken. You are Lunasa Prismriver, Violinist Townie Neighbor

This is an example of your work.

As such, you have the following special abilities:

Buddies!: You are neighbors with Serpentarius, Merlin Prismriver and Jan-san, Lyrica Prsimriver. You may speak to each other outside the thread at night. You do NOT know each other's alignment.


Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm in-thread.

Mod notes: Other neighbor. More specifically for Roukanken, while you were right to assume there was an anti town force in the neighbor group, don't always expect such a thing :P.

Quote
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Affinity. You are IOSYS, Mafia Earwormist

This is an example of your work.

As such, you have the following special abilities:

Memetic Mutation [MUSIC]: Target player gains a post restriction decided by the moderator.
Buddies!: You are mafia with Edible, Innocent Key, and Suwako Moriya, DJ Technetium. You may talk to them outside the game at night.
Kill: Every night, you, Edible, or Suwako Moriya may make a kill. Your kill method is Ran Over.

Win Condition (Mafia): You win when the mafia control over half the votes.

Please confirm in-thread.

Mod Note: The three PRs I had lined up were the nuclear one, the TV Tropes one, and one where you had to post japanese lyrics in every post. If I had needed more maybe I'd make a "Misspell a few words in every post" to "Cirno's Perfect Math Classroom". I dunno, I would have worked something out. I also kinda made the PR ability PMs as the ability was used, so here are the two that saw play:
Quote
Earworm C - Okuu's Nuclear Fusion Gym: It appears you can't get this song out of your head! You feel compelled to post a picture of a nuclear explosion in every post. Failure to obey this compulsion will result in a warning the first two times, but the third failure will result in you yourself becoming the nuclear explosion. Since comiket frowns upon people exploding, you will also be BANNED FROM COMIKET FOREVAR. Good luck!

Quote
Earworm A - Marisa Stole The Precious Thing: It appears you can't get this song out of your head! You feel compelled to post a relevant TV trope in every post. Failure to obey this compulsion will result in a warning the first two times, but the third failure will result in you having your life ruined. Of course, the start of this is that you will be BANNED FROM COMIKET FOREVAR. Good luck!
---------------------------------

[/quote]
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Zakeri. You are dBu Music, Townie AWESOME shot dayvig

This is an example of your work.

As such, you have the following special abilities:

Power Kill [MUSIC]: Target player will be killed. However, you know how awesome music goes...it starts off a little slow and then BANG something ridiculous happens. As such, you cannot use this ability until the key change on D2.


Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm in-thread.
[/quote]

Mod Note: Directly inspired by Touhou justice. Flavor came from the fact that dBu ALWAYS has a freaking key change and it usually sounds cool. I liked this role (duh, it was a vig)

Quote
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Nietz. You are Xepher Cradle, Townie Neoclassical Psychologist

This is an example of your work. (Sorry I couldn't find the full version)

As such, you have the following special abilities:

And How Does That Make You Feel?: Target a player. If targetted player is a serial killer, they will become a townie. If the player is not a serial killer, nothing happens.

Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm in-thread.

Mod Notes: Meet the game breaker. I was seriously retarded when I made this role. Not because it was a psychologist, but because of some mod notes I had...such as how the neighbor group becomes a masonry if the SK is cured. No, 4 confirmed town wouldn't break the game, not at all...*rolls eyes*

Let me show you the revised neighbor PMs if Serpy had been cured:

Quote
Congratulations, PLAYERNAME. You have been cured of your desire to kill everyone. You are now Merlin, Townie Trumpeting Mason

Your abilities have changed:


Buddies!: You are in a masonry with PLAYERNAME, Lunasa Prismriver and PLAYERNAME, Lyrica Prsimriver. You may speak to each other outside the thread at night. You know each other to be town.


Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.

Quote
Lunasa
With Merlin cured of her madness, you have gained a new ability:

Buddies!: You are in a masonry with PLAYERNAME, Merlin Prismriver and PLAYERNAME, Lyrica Prsimriver. You may speak to each other outside the thread at night. You know each other to be town.

Quote
Lyrica

With Merlin cured of her madness, you have gained a new ability:

Buddies!: You are in a masonry with PLAYERNAME, Merlin Prismriver and PLAYERNAME, Lunasa Prsimriver. You may speak to each other outside the thread at night. You know each other to be town.


Quote
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Carthrat. You are UI-70, Townie Metalmixer Jack of All Trades

This is an example of your work.

As such, you have the following special abilities:

Smash Guitar [MUSIC]: You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?

Keep the Beat [MUSIC]: You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?

Drum Solo [MUSIC]: You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?

Overdrive [MUSIC]: You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?

Deadly Dancing Butterfly: You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?

View of Spiral Riverside: You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?



Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.  You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?

Please confirm in-thread.

Mod Notes: So yeah, this was simultaniously bastardly and awesome. The actual abilities were as follows:

Quote
Smash Guitar: Nullify all music based abilities of that night.
(Mod Note: This would be Jazz Jailkeep, Entrancer untargetability, Trumpeteer Kill, Earwormist PR)

(Hence the music tag)

Keep the beat: Repeats Previous action

Drum Solo: Makes untargettable by music based abilities.
(Mod Note: This would be Jazz Jailkeep, Entrancer untargetability, Trumpeteer Kill, Earwormist PR)

(Also fun with music)

Overdrive: Target will hang out with you and your awesome guitar solo that night, allowing you to watch who targets them. They lose their night action though (Kinda like jailkeeper except watch instead of protect)

(I personally wish this had seen use)

Deadly Dancing Butterfly: You follow the target that night. If they kill someone, you kill them.

(Unfortunately Carth targetted Jan-san. This is effectively "If you target killing scum, they die". Kinda cool, but mildly broken if known)

The View of Spiral Riverside: Sane cop Investigation. (duh)

I really hated how early this role died. But, you can't win em all.

Quote
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Sodium. You are Innocent Key, Mafia Goon

This is an example of your work.

As such, you have the following special abilities:

Buddies!: You are mafia with Suwako Moriya, DJ Technetium, and Affinity, IOSYS. You may talk to them outside the game at night.
Kill: Every night, you, Affinity, or Suwako Moriya may make a kill. Your kill method is Knee Socked.

Win Condition (Mafia): You win when the mafia control over half the votes.

Please confirm in-thread.

Mod Note: Oh cmon, they wrote the song about Flandre and Remilia having a BDSM lifestyle with Sakuya. How could the NOT be scum?

Quote
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Alice Margatroid. You are Golden City Factory, Vanilla Townie

This is an example of your work.

As such, you have the following special abilities:

Absolutely Nothing: You really don't do anything except vote and talk. Sucks to be you, ne?


Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.

Please confirm in-thread.

Mod Note: Obligatory Vanilla. Blame Tar.


That's all the roles. I'm sure everyone will have a bitchfest now.

Oh, about lylo notification. I don't normally do it anyway but there's also the fact you were technically in lylo with 9 alive. Wouldn't that reveal a LITTLE too much about the set up?

(It DID assume Zak vigging town, SK killing town, and Scum killing town, as well as you all lynching town, triggering the scum win con of controlling more than 50% of the vote)


So yeah...any questions?


Re: Touhou Remix Day 4! Boosh.
« Reply #363 on: August 21, 2009, 12:47:20 AM »
Quote from: Kiro
For our purposes in this LYLO, 1 Scum and 1 Survivor is essentially the same as 2 Scum. The only way we will lose if Serp is a Survivor is if there are 2 other Scum along with him. And having 3 Scum, 1 Survivor and 8 Townies in this game looks grossly imbalanced.

Actually, it's a fairly standard and valid set up on MS judging from the games I've played, which with the rules on flips and lylo having been taken from UK's experience as a mod there, I'm sure this set up does as well. It also falls well within the "25-33% Scum" Gerenality behind it, because a game with four scum and eight town works well, especially if one of the scum needs the other three dead and vice versa.

Oops, I knew I was missing something.

Zakeri,
Zakeri, can you give us a better understanding of your thought processes from the end of Day 3 (where you don't vote either Kerigis or Sodium at deadline) to now?
Please answer this in Twilight or tomorrow.

I actually made a haiku about it immediately after the phase change:

My Hesitation...
Should I shoot, or should I vote?
too late, it's deadline.

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #364 on: August 21, 2009, 12:51:58 AM »
3 scum, 1 survivor and 8 Townies = possibly balanced.
3 scum, 1 SK and 8 Townies = NO.

I will admit that my post-death complaints about Kiro's sanity were misplaced after reading this, but this was such an anti-town game on so many levels. It didn't help that Tenshi and Kerigis-san were practically dead weight. Joint winners of Honorary Scum in my opinion.

MVP is probably Suwako. I had suspicions of Affinity and Serp but I honestly believed his claim when it came out.

UncertainKitten,
Next time you run Mafia
Please make it fairer?

Nietz

  • NEETz
  • *
  • Normal Person
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #365 on: August 21, 2009, 01:01:27 AM »
3 scum, 1 survivor and 8 Townies = possibly balanced.
3 scum, 1 SK and 8 Townies = NO.
This, basically.

But I'm also concerned on why Carthrat was the only one not to have the role revealed on flip.

?q

  • Lurking librarian
  • and moe sound effect
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #366 on: August 21, 2009, 01:02:23 AM »
Quote
I just hate trumpet players for the most part :P.
The kitten knows which
Instruments to insult so
She gets my respect.

Quote
3 scum, 1 survivor and 8 Townies = possibly balanced.
3 scum, 1 SK and 8 Townies = NO.
8-3-1 is okay if scum don't have power roles AND Town does, but etc.

Suwako Moriya

  • Hey you with the pretty face
  • *
  • Welcome to the human race!
Re: Touhou Remix Day 4! Boosh.
« Reply #367 on: August 21, 2009, 01:05:01 AM »
Sorry, Kiro. I kinda felt bad by planning the entire game around leaving you alive because you were wrong about everything and people listened to you. But you gotta do what you gotta do.

For me, this game was a hilarious series of me fucking up at night and getting lucky during the day. I was the one that selected Serpentarius for Night 2 kill (Affinity wanted Zakeri I think) - and then Serpentarius didn't counterclaim against me when I said I had been attacked. Roukanken was killed Night 3 because I thought he was the doc - and then Kiro calls Scum Serpentarius, Zakeri offs Alice and Serpentarius completely breaks down. For the record, I as scum will never take up an "hey we should work together to get rid of town!" offer from a claimed third party because I never know what their win condition is. Serpentarius exuded role-with-victory-priority-ahead-of-scum with his offer so I ignored it completely. (I had a sneaking suspicion at the very end that he was actually the SK but I couldn't argue it because it would have forced me to oust myself as scum.)

On the whole, this game was very enjoyable - if a bit imba in our favor - even with the lack of useful active scum roles. I'm probably saying that because I won, though, so hey.

*

Finally, some mid-Day 4 IRC fun (I was the only one in the channel still alive when this happened):

[22:54] <SuwakoMoriya> Damnit, someone post in Mafia.
[22:54] <SuwakoMoriya> I want this game to end.
[22:54] <bofh> SuwakoMoriya: in the middle of a poast
[22:54] <SuwakoMoriya> bofh: You're dead.
[22:54] <bofh> I have to catch up on a lot of shit.
[22:54] <bofh> oh, modkill?
[22:54] <SuwakoMoriya> Zakeri daykilled you.
[22:54] <bofh> ...
[22:54] <Kerigis> Yeap.
[22:54] <SuwakoMoriya> It's the thought that counts, though.
[22:54] <SuwakoMoriya> We appreciate it.
[22:55] <bofh> Well, I wish I had learned about that BEFORE I spent the past 5 hours trying to catch up.
[22:55] <SuwakoMoriya> You didn't ask!
[22:55] <bofh> o well.
The only thing this dimension does well is show its ass. We might as well applaud it! - Albert Burneko

Well, this game happened.

Sodium

  • pew pew lasers
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #368 on: August 21, 2009, 01:05:32 AM »
Hurray, I finally won a game.

I wanted a role. Instead, I get the goon. =V

Uh, I wasn't expecting for both Kerigis and I to die, but it worked out nicely anyways, seeing as it still brought the game into lylo. Probably better that I had died, really. I made the really lousy Chen & Yukari haiku, although I was going to make:

a e i o u
a e i o u and y
a e i o u

but then that would get me killed horribly.

Last game I'm playing for a while; I wanted to join UFO, but I think I'll take a break.

And yeah, Suwako for MVP. So, who are you anyways? >_>

Sodium

  • pew pew lasers
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #369 on: August 21, 2009, 01:06:25 AM »
EBWOP: bofh is Alice? News to me. >_>

Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #370 on: August 21, 2009, 01:10:00 AM »
I can't believe I didn't get lynched today.  When I read Serp's post I wanted to shoot myself.  It's like hanging your queen in a winning position in chess, but I'm glad that it paradoxically made Serp more scummy for some reasons I disagree with.  I guess if you can't get out of a situation, the only thing to do is to go deeper.

And anyways, yes I agree that the modding could have been improved on many levels.  I should have known that my posting restriction ended after one day and such.  I think we played quite well, but on the other hand, Kiro played very nicely, getting the right suspicions in just when we thought we could have misled him for once especially in LyLO.  And serial killer was lol, so yeah, it wasn't balanced even with the psychologist around.

Finally, LyLO should and always be given as info on any day.  And role information should be revealed on flip.

Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #371 on: August 21, 2009, 01:15:34 AM »
It was. He was a "Metalmixer"

he got the same treatment everyone else did, except no one knew the hell what a mixer was.

I was so overjoyed when I received my role. Never again would I be helpless to shoot down obvscum that only I seemed to see. Then, of course, I decide not to shoot the guy with a guilty on him because I didn't think he was partners with Jan-san. To be fair, I was partially right (Just not about the part of shooting him.)

Be honest Alice... Would you have anything important to add if I hadn't shot you?

Cut: Huh, I guess Suwako answered my last question. Sorry about that.

also Accurate Depiction of Town losing to Mafia

Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #372 on: August 21, 2009, 01:17:03 AM »
Roles were really interesting though, after reading them.  Would like to see what Alice thought D=.

Suwako Moriya

  • Hey you with the pretty face
  • *
  • Welcome to the human race!
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #373 on: August 21, 2009, 01:18:15 AM »
So, who are you anyways? >_>

The true goddess of the Moriya Shrine.

The only thing this dimension does well is show its ass. We might as well applaud it! - Albert Burneko

Well, this game happened.

Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #374 on: August 21, 2009, 01:19:10 AM »
Roles were really interesting though, after reading them.  Would like to see what Alice thought D=.

Me, too, since up until I had killed him, I was absolutely certain it was "Nothing."

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #375 on: August 21, 2009, 01:21:05 AM »
Quote

UncertainKitten,
Next time you run Mafia
Please make it fairer?

Argue that with my reviewers. SK, 3 scum, 8 townie set ups are rather balanced. There were also two protective roles, the chance of crosskill, AND the fact that you had the potential for four confirmeds.

In fact, this town was titled ENTIRELY in town's favor. Town even had a chance to win when there were TWO TOWNIES LEFT in a final five.

But, give me a case for how it was unbalanced please?

Quote
This, basically.

But I'm also concerned on why Carthrat was the only one not to have the role revealed on flip.

His role was revealed as Townie Metalmixer. Granted, this was useless to you, but still

Quote
8-3-1 is okay if scum don't have power roles AND Town does, but etc.

Well, the PR giver isn't exactly the most awesome role ever. It was more for the lulz. Now, granted, Suwako's untargetability might have made things bad, but that's arguable.

Quote
For the record, I as scum will never take up an "hey we should work together to get rid of town!" offer from a claimed third party because I never know what their win condition is.

Would have been auto win for you guys. SK+scum creates anti town voting block. SK kills other townie (or even one of the scum), scum kills townie. Guess what endgame is?

Quote
On the whole, this game was very enjoyable - if a bit imba in our favor - even with the lack of useful active scum roles. I'm probably saying that because I won, though, so hey.

I'm sure you wouldn't be saying this if the prismriver masonry had kicked in, lol.

Quote
Uh, I wasn't expecting for both Kerigis and I to die, but it worked out nicely anyways, seeing as it still brought the game into lylo. Probably better that I had died, really. I made the really lousy Chen & Yukari haiku, although I was going to make:

I couldn't make an unbiased call. I probably would have pushed it into town's favor had I not done that. And I asked several people before doing it.


Quote
And yeah, Suwako for MVP. So, who are you anyways? >_>

I KNOW!

Quote
Finally, LyLO should and always be given as info on any day.  And role information should be revealed on flip.

Tell that to MS. Both counts.

Also, there would have been FAR too much set up info revealed by calling lylo. Since, as I said, with 9 alive you were in a worst case scenario lylo. Do you really think it would be fair to either scum party OR the dayvig to reveal there were at least three killing roles, as well as three scum?

I rest my case.

As for role information, I'll admit I should have said JoaT, but I still stand by not giving you everything. You all are too used to a RIDICULOUS plethora of information most mods don't give. I run a game as I normally would and you all complain.

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And anyways, yes I agree that the modding could have been improved on many levels.  I should have known that my posting restriction ended after one day and such.  I think we played quite well, but on the other hand, Kiro played very nicely, getting the right suspicions in just when we thought we could have misled him for once especially in LyLO.  And serial killer was lol, so yeah, it wasn't balanced even with the psychologist around.

the psychologist was what unbalanced it.

Please, I'd LOVE to hear an argument about WHY the SK unbalanced the game. Not just "lol, it's unbalanced".




UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #376 on: August 21, 2009, 01:23:43 AM »
Oh yeah, for the record, it WAS swingy as fuck. But, swinginess != unbalanced.

It wasn't perfectly balanced, no, but you all are addressing the wrong things.

Like I said, in F5 all teams could win. Can you really say it was unbalanced against town when even outnumbered they could have won?


Sodium

  • pew pew lasers
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #377 on: August 21, 2009, 01:24:23 AM »
Did the SK even KILL anything?

Kiro

  • Drinks: Everything
  • Sleeps: Anywhere
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #378 on: August 21, 2009, 01:28:03 AM »
I pretty much guessed right that Drinking would affect my Sanity. And since I figured ZUN is always drunk while making great games, I guessed Drinking first would make me Sane. But I thought it was an on-off switch rather than a single night effect. So I didn't think far enough ahead that my Sanity might have switched if I didn't continually Drink. I dunno, I think this role is pretty bastardy. I have the potential to be wrong twice before actually figuring it out. And in an 8-3-1 game? There's very little room for error there.

I underestimated that the SK was a single shot and underestimated the numbers set up. In essence, Town WAS pretty screwed going into Day 4. 2-2-1... Actually, how the hell was Town supposed to win in that situation? If we went Affinity, almost certainly Zakeri or I would have died. Then you have 1-1-1. There's no way for Town to win at this junction.

That being said, I think my Day 4 actions were justified. I corrected myself at least on Zakeri although it was mainly Zakeri getting the Vig in and it conflicting with my thoughts on Serp. Serp was looking out for his own survival and withholding information so he was rightfully Scummy.

I actually had a bad feeling about Suwako mainly for him wanting to vote Serp so fast after my revealed result and after the Vig, but I convinced myself he was just overeager. However, the continual agreement and propping me up (he smells like roses) reminded me EXACTLY like Scum Kilga doing the same to me in PC-98 Mafia. Heh. With Serp and Affinity ahead of him though, I couldn't be bothered to worry about it anymore.

Game was swingy, yes. But I think it's unbalanced because it's swingy to the extremes. The Town Psychologist could only unbalance things if he hit one particular target. Shooting the moon pretty much. SK win condition is difficult with 3 Scum imo, but it generally always is.

Just gonna put this post out first.

Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
  • *
  • It's the inevitable return, baby
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #379 on: August 21, 2009, 01:31:45 AM »
Sorry for the insanely early replacement.

Also, of course there's very little game balance for this one - you should've known that heading in when UK said it was role madness~

Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
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  • It's the inevitable return, baby
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #380 on: August 21, 2009, 01:35:30 AM »
I actually had a bad feeling about Suwako mainly for him wanting to vote Serp so fast after my revealed result and after the Vig, but I convinced myself he was just overeager. However, the continual agreement and propping me up (he smells like roses) reminded me EXACTLY like Scum Kilga doing the same to me in PC-98 Mafia.

ho ho ho

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #381 on: August 21, 2009, 01:35:36 AM »
Did the SK even KILL anything?

Rou on N3.

He no killed N1 and N2. No idea WHY, but he did. Might have been a more interesting game if he had. A lot of things messed around with how the game should have gone, but yeah.

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I pretty much guessed right that Drinking would affect my Sanity. And since I figured ZUN is always drunk while making great games, I guessed Drinking first would make me Sane. But I thought it was an on-off switch rather than a single night effect. So I didn't think far enough ahead that my Sanity might have switched if I didn't continually Drink. I dunno, I think this role is pretty bastardy. I have the potential to be wrong twice before actually figuring it out. And in an 8-3-1 game? There's very little room for error there.

I agree it was bastardly, but I'm also a proponent of "screw the cop". It's an overpowered role as normal, and coming up with nerfed cop variants is a hobby of mine. When you aren't guaranteed sane, you should always check your result against a players actions. While you can't control other players, it still helps.

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I underestimated that the SK was a single shot and underestimated the numbers set up. In essence, Town WAS pretty screwed going into Day 4. 2-2-1... Actually, how the hell was Town supposed to win in that situation? If we went Affinity, almost certainly Zakeri or I would have died. Then you have 1-1-1. There's no way for Town to win at this junction.

Ok, here's the scenario.

You lynch Affinity, after Serp has claimed SK (which is what he SHOULD have done and didn't). Scum kills either Serp or Zak, who cares which.

in 1:1:1, you go to haiku off. Anything else results in townie death, scorched earth/scum win.

Townie produces the best haiku. The losers die, as the rule stipulates one winner. Kinda messed up but yeah. Town could win. It was just contrived.

The other possibility is scum kills Serp leaving 2:1, obv win.

This assumes Serp tries to shoot Suwako and fails. This also assumed that Suwako didn't claim untargettable, but that happened decreasing your chances. However, Serpy would still not want to shoot at all since being left with Suwako is a mafia win.

Either way, it was hard, but possible.

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Game was swingy, yes. But I think it's unbalanced because it's swingy to the extremes. The Town Psychologist could only unbalance things if he hit one particular target. Shooting the moon pretty much. SK win condition is difficult with 3 Scum imo, but it generally always is.

Odds are I should have given Serpy untargettable rather than Suwako. If it is unbalanced due to swinginess, who's favor is it in then?


Sorry for the insanely early replacement.

Also, of course there's very little game balance for this one - you should've known that heading in when UK said it was role madness~

I still disagree. But reiterating the point makes me look whiny. I'll wait until there's a full argument for or against my balance.


Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
  • *
  • It's the inevitable return, baby
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #382 on: August 21, 2009, 01:37:51 AM »
If it is unbalanced due to swinginess, who's favor is it in then?


UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #383 on: August 21, 2009, 01:40:02 AM »
If it is unbalanced due to swinginess, who's favor is it in then?



This is the best argument evar ^-^.


FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
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  • blub blub nya
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #384 on: August 21, 2009, 01:42:45 AM »
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But, give me a case for how it was unbalanced please?
Given the possiblity of three dead Townies before the start of D2, I don't see why this game could be considered balanced. Likewise scum could be steamrolling Town and lose because SK gets lucky with a few hits. Hell, SK is a horrible role in general because depending on who it hits one side's inevitably going to have an unfair disadvantage.
Plus, of course, the Prismriver masons.

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In fact, this town was titled ENTIRELY in town's favor. Town even had a chance to win when there were TWO TOWNIES LEFT in a final five.
Except, not really. Let's look at the options:
- Townie lynched, 1-2-1. SK hits scum for own safety, scum hits either Town or SK. EIther 1-1-0 or 0-1-1, either way Town isn't winning.
- Scum lynched, 2-1-1. THE ONLY CHANCE THE TOWN HAS OF WINNING IS IF SCUM AND SK SHOOT EACH OTHER. This is plain ridiculous and shouldn't even be considered a possibility, since SK hitting Town gets them everything hitting scum would earn and more, and of course there's the possibility he'd run into untargetable Suwako.
If they both hit the same Townie we get 1-1-1 and the best Town has is a tiebreaker situation, except they can't actually vote for SK OR MAFIA because then the other player will jump on and win. >_>
- SK lynched, 2-2-0, instant game over.

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As for role information, I'll admit I should have said JoaT, but I still stand by not giving you everything. You all are too used to a RIDICULOUS plethora of information most mods don't give. I run a game as I normally would and you all complain.
Make up a role and we're not untitled to know what it does? When the situation is at its most critical don't warn us, let alone give us extra time to talk about it like other mods do?

In short, any game where a good deal of effort and good play can be outdone by a lack of information and a few lucky night actions is imba.

Jana

  • mrgrgr
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Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #385 on: August 21, 2009, 01:47:30 AM »
As I said in my message to Unesco (UK or Pesco? I dunno who read it), I won't be invlovled with Mafia for a very, very long time... Since I can't get enough time to play in the summer, I probably won't play until the winter break.

Anyway, my plan going into Day 1 was to try and put pressure on my neighbors and flush out any scum. I was sorta onto something with Serp, but I'll admit that I took the first reason to put pressure I could get. If Roukanken had done something else first, I would have been chasing after him.

Not the best game plan... Blame noob-ness and paranoia, I guess. I've been reading bits and pieces here and there to see what's been going, so I'll second (Third? Fourth?) that MVP vote for Suwako. Well played, and it would have been more fun with the role madness if I could have stayed to see it through.

UncertainJakutten

  • Then you should get out of the way when I tell you
  • Do you not trust my aim?
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #386 on: August 21, 2009, 01:48:08 AM »
Oh yeah. Modding mistakes I admit:

The SK to mason thing. *shudder*
Not specifying the time limit on the PR. Sorry :S
Not being clearer on a couple roles that could be easily clarified (yes, I'm admitting this one Rou. I'll try to fix it in the future)
Not being clear on scum being able to no kill (sorry)
Not warning of the potential for bastard roles
Not warning that I hate cops with a burning passion (I forgot not everyone knows that in my meta)

That's all I can think of at the moment, but if I think of more, I'll admit em.

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Given the possiblity of three dead Townies before the start of D2, I don't see why this game could be considered balanced. Likewise scum could be steamrolling Town and lose because SK gets lucky with a few hits. Hell, SK is a horrible role in general because depending on who it hits one side's inevitably going to have an unfair disadvantage.
Plus, of course, the Prismriver masons.

Ok, you still have another mislynch. You also forget SK can end up hitting scum.

2 mislynches in a 12 player game is pretty normal. Your technical lylo WAS a very bad situation where the town would HAVE to be playing badly. Also, the SK had to be careful not to help scum too much of scum would reach their wincon first.

Agree on the prismrivers.

SK is more swingy than unbalanced.

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- Townie lynched, 1-2-1. SK hits scum for own safety, scum hits either Town or SK. EIther 1-1-0 or 0-1-1, either way Town isn't winning.
- Scum lynched, 2-1-1. THE ONLY CHANCE THE TOWN HAS OF WINNING IS IF SCUM AND SK SHOOT EACH OTHER. This is plain ridiculous and shouldn't even be considered a possibility, since SK hitting Town gets them everything hitting scum would earn and more, and of course there's the possibility he'd run into untargetable Suwako.

Already explained.

And of course town loses if they lynch a townie.

It really wasn't ridiculous that SK and scum would shoot each other. Scum wants to WIN, not tie.

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Make up a role and we're not untitled to know what it does? When the situation is at its most critical don't warn us, let alone give us extra time to talk about it like other mods do?

In short, any game where a good deal of effort and good play can be outdone by a lack of information and a few lucky night actions is imba.

I disagree on lack of information. Further, what you describe is swingy.

Further, can you HONESTLY say the town played well? Answer that for me please ^-^.

I'd really like to get an unbiased observer to comment on the balance though.


FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #387 on: August 21, 2009, 01:53:01 AM »
Further, can you HONESTLY say the town played well? Answer that for me please ^-^.
Like I said, Tenshi and Kerigis-san really screwed the Town over. Alice was even more of a lurker than usual, and it's a bad sign that the one person I honestly believed the most to be Town was Suwako, hence the MVP.

I'm willing to withdraw my claim that this game was biased against town and just stick with UK's 'it's swingy' comment. Becuase last I checked, a game that fluctuates that rapidly with no warning is at best imba and at worse bastard mod.

Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #388 on: August 21, 2009, 01:54:42 AM »
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Odds are I should have given Serpy untargettable rather than Suwako. If it is unbalanced due to swinginess, who's favor is it in then?
Scum, unless Neitz had won the random chance guessing game

Also, I personally disagree with "If there's on Maf and One SK, the Maf wins" since it basically makes the game even more nintendo hard for the SK, who already has to deal with the stress of being night hit more than once, and not getting lynched even though town has to consider him a valid target if he says anything about his role other than flat out lying about it. Basically, adding "Oh, and on top of having to get the numbers down to yourself and one other person, that one other person has to be townie or else you'll lose anyway."

Basically, Serp's best play for day two was to roleclaim as serial killer and then convince people to have Neitz survive target him. Surprisingly enough, this would almost definitely have lead to him winning due to the setup.

Cut by Jan-san: wait a minute... GOD DAMN IT. I just now realized that my reason for not targeting Serp was invalid. It was because I had confused Jan-san for Xan and thought Sodium had replace Jan-san instead of Xan. which means the whole time I thought it was Jan-san's role that flipped scum during the Haiku-off. fuck me with a spork, I had been trying to reason all day 4 why SerpScum would target JanScum for the time he did. I really hate inactives now.

Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
  • *
  • It's the inevitable return, baby
Re: Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!
« Reply #389 on: August 21, 2009, 01:55:03 AM »
I'd really like to get an unbiased observer to comment on the balance though.

I believe the game setup had a higher chance of being decided by luck, rather than skill or effort.

That said - I do not believe Scum won due to luck.