Semi-major revision on an important facet of the official materials - Need Input

[N-Forza]

There's been a bit of strife over on the Wiki lately due to a recent discovery: In each character's profile where it lists their ability, it doesn't actually say "The ability to ~". In true ZUN fashion, he has to be vague about it and say "程度の能力" which literally translated means "Ability to the extent of ~". While the fact itself isn't new, most translators (including me) have just kind of dropped the middle part for the sake of clarity. However, what was recently pointed out was this phrasing was intentionally vague, and awkward boot. ZUN is basically saying that each character has just enough power/ability/etc. to be able to do whatever it is they do (manipulate magic/borders/eternity/etc.), so while he is denoting their unique capabilities, he is implying they are able to do OTHER things as well. It's like a scale without any clear delineation of quantity.

So, the editors have kind of come to loggerheads over how to best translate this to reflect the intention and writing style of this phrase, leading to this thread so the community can have a say without being intimidated or have to register there or whatever. Please offer suggestions on how to make this work in English, but keep two things in mind:

1. This needs to be purposefully awkward and vague, just like the Japanese version. HOWEVER, it needs to be awkward not in a poorly-translated Japanese sense, but in a "I'm writing these super-special-awesome abilities for my characters but I don't want to express it in a boring way, so I gotta make it sound cool" kind of way. Basically, imagine you're in elementary/middle school again and you're just going nuts with whatever story you're making. You want someone completely ignorant of Touhou to look at this phrase and go "ha, that's a weird phrase but I think I get what they're going for here".

2. It doesn't matter if you "don't know Japanese" or whatever. I just explained the entire situation, so if you have an idea, post it. If nothing else, you might contribute a piece to our puzzle. Like I said in the first point, we want so-cool-we're-inventing-new-phrases English.

To summarize: turn "ability to the extent of ~" into something purposefully so awkward it's awesome.

[Tengukami]

In true ZUN fashion, he has to be vague about it and say "程度の能力" which literally translated means "Ability to the extent of ~". ...  ZUN is basically saying that each character has just enough power/ability/etc. to be able to do whatever it is they do (manipulate magic/borders/eternity/etc.), so while he is denoting their unique capabilities, he is implying they are able to do OTHER things as well.

But wouldn't "to the extent of" imply the opposite; that this is all they can do?

[N-Forza]

No, it's like "within the extent of your arm's reach". You can reach any point as long as your arm can extend to it. It seems to be a way of defining power levels, but vaguely.

Yes, it's confusing, but the goal if this thread is to come to a way to get the point across in English without requiring a footnote.

[Tengukami]

Ah, OK. Hm.

How about "Ability rising to the greatness of" or "Ability achieving max power at"?

[FinnKaenbyou]

Greatest Achievement? Although that makes Reimu's ability to fly look a little lousy.

If you want a fancy English word equivalent, how about something like Epitome? It sort of implies proficiency in what they're doing but also keeps open the possibility of other powers.

[Aba Matindesu!]

Could we go for something bland like "Best ability:"?

[XephyrEnigma]

Could we go for something bland like "Best ability:"?

He's looking for something that catches the eye though.

Perhaps something like: Comprehension and utilization of X, maybe?

[Zil]

"Ability reaching the level of X"

"Ability to realize the power of X" (Kind of Earthbound style)

Or perhaps "Ability sufficient to realize/reach the power of X." A bit of a mouthfull.

[Stuffman]

Try trading "ability" for "capability", i.e. Capability to Manipulate Borders. I think that's a good way to imply what their power can do while also suggesting it can do other things.

You could use something like Capableness of Manipulating Borders if you want to be silly :V

Try to avoid using any word that suggests any kind of absolute or maximum, since you don't want Yuuka's entry to read "MAXIMUM AWESOMENESS: Manipulation of flowers", etc

[Aba Matindesu!]

Try to avoid using any word that suggests any kind of absolute or maximum, since you don't want Yuuka's entry to read "MAXIMUM AWESOMENESS: Manipulation of flowers", etc

"Fight is now 20% awsmer, just add flowers!"

srs: Innate Skill(s)?

[Drake]

For all those who haven't actually read the discussion in question, here.

I still think Tosiaki is being really prohibitive and stubborn here. I still have problems with the current phrasing, but if he's just going to reject everything unless I go "yeah I speak Japanese too" then we're at a standstill because he isn't listening to the english-speaking side either, whatsoever. I got really miffed this past week when he announced "I HAVE THE BEST IDEA" and then implemented it within days without any attempt to have other input, which is directly contrary to the "WE TOOK MONTHS TO CHANGE IT I'M NOT GOING TO CHANGE IT WITHOUT SOLID CONSENSUS" and these sorts of things he's excused himself with throughout the discussion.

Personally I'm good with the likes of "Ability/Power capable of X". I like that region a lot. "Sufficient ability to X" is alright, but similarly to "extent" it still forms a bound on the character's abilities, as Ammy first mentioned. First impressions of a phrase are the most important here, since this is the little blip that goes in the short-form profile summary. Also guys, while some of you are definitely getting the superhero awkwardness, you still need some uh structure please. Part of the reason why Tosiaki keeps rejecting things is because it isn't completely adherent to the japanese phrasing, so something similar to the literal "blablabla-degree ability" is what we're looking for.

[Firestorm29]

I think I more like the idea of the "Capable of X" rather than ability.

Also, how does websites like Marvel handle this sort of thing with their characters and encyclopedias? I think that might be a good starting point and then work towards akward Japanese sounding afterwards. That way, we'd know what works in English how not to imply that Yukari has God-Mode border powers, which the Japanese appear to not have the problem of.

[C27]

Literalism is awkward and some expressions in Japanese don't work so well in English. I think that's the matter here. "Capability to x" does sound like the best phrasing, pedantics be damned.

[haoreos2]

So we're looking for something that implies:

• the character in question has a vaguely-defined ability "to the extent of X"
• the ability in question is just the most unique or foremost among an undefined set of skills, not a "this and only this" deal

-all using equivocation. Is this correct?


What we have now is "Abilities: Ability to the extent of manipulating boundaries".
If we change the "the extent" to "an extent" it implies that this isn't the be all and end all of that character's skillset, and the definite article by its very nature is more defined than the indefinite one (real shock there). If we add "including" before "ability", we further imply it's just the primary skill among many, while not offering anything concrete:
"Skills: Including ability to an extent of boundary manipulation"?
(Or "including an ability extending to manipulation of boundaries"? me no think gud, brain sleep.)

[iK]

I like the word including, but I think it would be sufficient to word it as "Power: Ability including __________."

Or we could not worry about arbitrary things like this since it is known that Yuuka's ability, along with several other characters, is purely there for the sake of having one defined.

[C27]

"Abilities include: x,y,....etc"  How's this? Fact is, you could add anything that the character's been known to be able to do in canon works, not only what's listed in the character profile.

[Zil]

I think the idea is to simply translate it, so adding stuff is probably a no go.

[Starxsword]

Howabout:

"Power: Is skilled at using swords" or "Power: Is skilled at manipulating density". This makes it clear that swords or density isn't the only thing this character can do.

Or maybe, "Power: Talents include using swords" or "Power: Talents include manipulating density".

Or maybe, "Power: Specializes at using swords". But this definition may be off.

[Dizzy H. "Muffin" Muffin]

Hmm. I'm trying to contribute meaningfully, but I keep getting tripped up at "capability to the extent of manipulating flowers", since that sounds kinda weaksauce ...

I still think Tosiaki is being really prohibitive and stubborn here. [snip]

This is the kind of guy I would have flat-out removed from editing priviledges, because what I'm taking away from that whole paragraph is that he's only interested in getting his own way and to hell with anyone else's input.

[Drake]

I'm certainly painting him in a negative light somewhat because he bothers me, and it is a bit unfair, but if you go read the actual discussion then you'll probably see why I'm frustrated.

[N-Forza]

So we're looking for something that implies:

• the character in question has a vaguely-defined ability "to the extent of X"
• the ability in question is just the most unique or foremost among an undefined set of skills, not a "this and only this" deal

-all using equivocation. Is this correct?

Pretty much, but it needs to be phrased differently. We're not looking for a literal translation, though.

[Tengukami]

How about "powerful enough to X"? Maybe "magically adept enough to X", even.

A la the classic Superman introduction ("faster than a locomotive, more powerful than a speeding bullet, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound"). Seems that would cover the same concept as "ability to the extent of", i.e., a power-levelish description using a particular ability as an indication of their maximum/limit.

[nintendonut888]

I'mma also put my vote for something along the lines of "capable of ____." It's both descriptive and inferring that there's other things they can do.

[Mеа]

Any Japanese speakers here? I just want to know if 程度 can be used as a lower limit and an upper limit?
For example, can 空を飛ぶ程度の能力 mean both "Ability to the extent of at least flying/Ability to the extent of flying"?

[Drake]

It's meant to be neither; it's an approximation of a certain level or severity or caliber or amount or tier of something. When we say extent, it's closer to the word "degree", like "Possesses magical prowess to the degree that she can fly in the sky" or "there is a certain degree of refinedness about her" or "it reflects her personality, to some degree/extent" or "requires a certain amount/degree of skill" or "he's to blame, to an extent". While the word used would be the same, this is not the same application as saying "She became stressed to the extent/degree that she fainted", since that does imply an upper bound, which is one of my main qualms about it being the current phrasing and is what I am trying to avoid repeating.

[Iryan]

My initial idea would have been the same as Ammy's, though seeing some of the responses here, that would raise the question of what "powerful" means. If a certain ability is not related directly to physical or magical power, as, say, Satori's mind reading, that phrasing doesn't really make sense...

Maybe "Specialty: X"? Though that doesn't have the pizzaz you are going for, I assume...

...otherwise, seems like "Capable of X" would be areasonable translation. It says the character -can- do that, but not that it is the only thing they can do, no?

[Moerin]

Why not something like "Specialises in [powerset]"?  It's a little basic, but it gets the point across.

[Firestorm29]

Capable is pretty good, though I'm with Ammy with the idea we should not restrict ourselves to a template if not necessary.

Now the question I'm starting to ponder is why ZUN used the Kanji the way he did. I think it could represent a different way of translating if either he just couldn't think of a good wording for what he wanted at the time and just became tradition vs. there wasn't any Japanese words that could define the abilities being shown as part of their character rather than being a one-trick pony.

This might be getting a bit deep, but I'd rather get something that's close to the Japanese as possible without it being hard to read.

[haoreos2]

Or he's just being intentionally vague to leave wiggle room for himself or fanworks, or preserving conservation of detail. It's not a particularly uncommon mindset for an author to take, really.

[N-Forza]

But that's the thing, we don't want to simplify it because that would be going against the meaning implicit in the phrase he uses. I thought it wouldn't be too hard to come up with something "naturally awkward" but I guess it's easier said than done.