Author Topic: Yume Nikki Mafia - Waking 2  (Read 70211 times)

Nietz

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Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World) [Replacement Needed]
« Reply #420 on: May 22, 2009, 03:36:01 PM »
Vote count:

Zakeri (1): Carthrat. Roukanken, Sodium Peroxide
Serpentarius (1): Affinity
Edible (0): Sodium Peroxide
Affinity (2): Edible, Zakeri, Roukanken, Serpentarius
Alice (1): Carthrat
Not voting: u?, Alice, Serpentarius

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Affinity is at L-3.

11.5 hours remaining.

?lice Bl?ckb?rn

  • The real Alice Blackbarn!
  • *
  • "OH DESIRE"
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #421 on: May 22, 2009, 03:37:55 PM »
Reread Zakeri, he's still suspicious like whoa, but for the reasons I've stated above I don't think he's the right lynch for today.

Affinity's tracker claim is argh, and I'm not sure if I'm particularly keen on believing it at this point, but I don't think lynching him is a good idea either at this point.

Finally, I reread Sodium Germanate and I'm still convinced he's the best lynch for today, so:
##Vote: Sodium Borate
"Oh, great. Another game where I get screwed by Kilga." ~ Carthrat

Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #422 on: May 22, 2009, 03:49:33 PM »
I'm... the dwarf.  Apparently, I am so small that I can stealthily follow people.

Quote
He was okay with Pesco's lynch because other people were okay with Pesco's lynch. As he put it, "Pesco had the votes", and he had no reason to believe that Pesco was Town, so...

Fair, but as I see it, to claim that someone is neutral is to claim that his scummy actions are equal to his non-scummy actions, barring nulltells at such.  Not the slightest mention had been made of it.  Furthermore this links with the issue of stepping aside in the Rou vs. Pesco debate.  I would condone one of the above actions, but not both as they are inherently contradictory to each other.

---

@SP:

Questions to this post

How did I start off as good?  More importantly, what is wrong against Zakeri with taking pesco's side in the argument.  Gosh can you evaluate the reasons for the actions instead of the actions themselves?  Furthermore, apologetic moe does nothing for me.

---

As for Zakeri, other than the horrible pesco-is-town-since-Rou-is-scum argument and going heck-it-all Rou is scum, I find his day one advances weird but satisfactory; there were many instances where he twisted Rou's out of context very horribly, but some of the points generally deserved to be questioned.  It's quite difficult to really say exactly why pesco was useless, in my opinion; I think he did a few things yesterday.

But D2 Zakeri is bad.  First of all, he suddenly drops his
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 03:53:30 PM by Nietz »

Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
  • *
  • It's the inevitable return, baby
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #423 on: May 22, 2009, 03:56:28 PM »
But D2 Zakeri is bad.  First of all, he suddenly drops his

Pants?

Zakeri, you rogue!

I suppose I can buy Affinity's claim.  I'll see if I can dig up dirt on someone else, but SP's not looking so keen.  I'd like to hear from Uncertain Greek Character as well~

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #424 on: May 22, 2009, 04:18:28 PM »
Seems like Affinity has the same problem with Serp I did - a difference in understanding about hunting. From what I see you're looking at it like I do - players are innocent until proven guilty, but Serp's logic is that unless there's a reason to think you're Town you're potentially scum and thus you won't be missed if you're lynched (but only if there's no-one scummier). 'Matter of opinion' strikes again?

As is I suppose I've got no choice but to buy the Affinity claim. I have other suspects, anyway...

Zakeri: As mentioned before, Alice's clear based on stupidly defending Pesco is at best a WIFOM. Want to see how he responds to the Affinity claim.

Alice: See above clear of Zakeri, even after admitting he's been suspicious in other areas.
Quote
Edible: I'm slightly suspicious of you, as you're not as obvtown as you normally are when you're Town.
..I don't get it.
Also he's tunneling on Sodium a lot. The link to Pesco asking for a replacement is arguable, but...

Dihydrogen Monoxide: ...It is true that some of it holds. For new content worth noting is this:
Quote from: SP
Town, from what I can see. Reminds me of Alice in RWoS. Pretty much my reasoning for thinking Alice is town.
Firstly, meta clears are bad; secondly, if you want this to hold any merit explain how Town!Alice plays.

And I almost forgot Umu was playing. :| Feel like contributing?

Carthrat

  • HITLER OF LURKERS
  • MEIN MAIDENKAMPF
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #425 on: May 22, 2009, 04:25:58 PM »
'hey guys I'm a tracker. only I tracked a dead guy, so no results, tee-hee!' colour me exceptionally dubious. Almost any other kind of claim would've seemed more plausible, really. Almost doing a 180 on my opinion of Affinity...

Quote from: alice
Affinity's tracker claim is argh, and I'm not sure if I'm particularly keen on believing it at this point, but I don't think lynching him is a good idea either at this point.

This. Nonetheless I don't wanna lynch him now either. Still, Rou unvotes, Edible instantly accepts it without a qualm... the former I get, the latter, what's going on here?

Sodium is preferred to Affinity. Kinda tentatively prefer Edible to Sodium, cannot think straight right now. Alice lynch.. clearly not happening and not sure I want to keep plugging it in light of this anyway. I'M STILL WATCHING YOU. OMINOUS!

##Unvote, ##Vote: Edible for the time being.

I am seriously curious about who thinks Affinity is telling the truth, and who is leaving him alive merely because he claimed an investigative role. Going to bed.

Nietz

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Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World) [Replacement Needed]
« Reply #426 on: May 22, 2009, 04:30:18 PM »
Vote count:

Zakeri (1): Carthrat. Roukanken, Sodium Peroxide
Serpentarius (1): Affinity
Edible (1): Sodium Peroxide, Carthrat
Affinity (2): Edible, Zakeri, Roukanken, Serpentarius
Alice (1): Carthrat
Sodium (1): Alice
Not voting: u?, Serpentarius, Roukanken

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Affinity is at L-3.

10.5 hours remaining.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 10:03:01 PM by Nietz »

Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
  • *
  • It's the inevitable return, baby
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #427 on: May 22, 2009, 04:32:19 PM »
I think it makes sense with the flavor, and no one's counterclaimed. *shrug*

You'll notice my vote's still on him, though.

?q

  • Lurking librarian
  • and moe sound effect
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #428 on: May 22, 2009, 04:59:13 PM »
Uncertain Mew had a different deadline fiasco to take care of this morning.  I'm behind schedule but reading when I can.  Apologies for the wait.

Serp

  • It's all about overwhelming force and irresistible style
  • And in a pinch, style can slide
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #429 on: May 22, 2009, 05:10:31 PM »
Regarding myself, Roukanken said everything I could have on the matter.

Regarding Affinity, I don't buy his claim.  Why would you track Kiro?  He looked like an obvious townie to me after placing the decisive vote on Pesco.  If last game taught us anything, it's that you should be extremely skeptical when someone claims a power role, but conveniently fails to use it effectively.

##Vote Affinity

(L-2)

Still waiting on some analysis from umu (Ninja'd.  Still waiting, though).  Sodium's been active, but I'd like his thoughts on everyone, not just the current favorite lynch candidates.  I don't entirely agree with Alice's focusing on the ones who were absent earlier in the game, though I can definitely see where he's coming from.  I'm agreeing with a lot of Carth's analysis, though I really can't see where the suspicion of Edible is coming from.  Zakeri's still my main runner up for lynching.

We're getting close to the deadline.  I'm willing to put my vote on pretty much anyone if it's absolutely necessary to get a lynch in.
[15:13] <Sana> >:<

Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #430 on: May 22, 2009, 05:51:53 PM »
@Serp:

Kiro's switch to pesco was a tad forced, in my opinion.  You still haven't answered my questions about how any part of your case relies on anything other than speculation.  Also, Serp is merely stating opinions without justifying them or relating them to the scumhunting busieness, which does nothing but to raise my suspicion of him.

---

@Zakeri:

As for Zakeri, other than the horrible pesco-is-town-since-Rou-is-scum argument and going heck-it-all Rou is scum, I find his day one advances weird but satisfactory; there were many instances where he twisted Rou's out of context very horribly, but some of the points generally deserved to be questioned.  It's quite difficult to really say exactly why pesco was useless, in my opinion; I think he did a few things yesterday.

But D2 Zakeri is bad.  First of all, he suddenly drops his case on Roukanken enitrely.  Why?  Next, he uses the 'could be a fairy monster' argument lots of times in his case against me, which is really just WIFOM and fortune-telling.  Lastly, he cherry-picks the points from SP's inquiry, and disregarded the others, e.g "Why stick to pesco". 

Serp

  • It's all about overwhelming force and irresistible style
  • And in a pinch, style can slide
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #431 on: May 22, 2009, 06:04:36 PM »
@Serp:

Kiro's switch to pesco was a tad forced, in my opinion.

That's a ridiculously vague statement.

Quote from: Affinity
You still haven't answered my questions about how any part of your case relies on anything other than speculation.

Uh...  Guilty as charged?  Only the scum know for sure who the scum are.  It's possible that you could have said and done the stuff you've said and done while still being Town, but I think that's the least likely possibility.

Quote from: Affinity
Also, Serp is merely stating opinions without justifying them or relating them to the scumhunting busieness, which does nothing but to raise my suspicion of him.

I'm stating my changing opinions as the day goes on and everyone puts out new statements.  I'm pursuing the cases on the people who I think are scummy.  Both are necessary for scumhunting.
[15:13] <Sana> >:<

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #432 on: May 22, 2009, 07:52:04 PM »
Some more thought and now I'm really uncertain about Affinity's claim.

Yesterday Pesco flipped Godfather, as we all know. GFs generally appear for two reasons - to protect scum from SK/vig kills, and to mislead cops. There was no SK/vig action last night, so we can tentatively hypothesise that the latter is the case.

Now, if there is a cop in the setup, Town has 4 apparent roles - two of which are confirmed via death (Baity and Kiro). If this cop does exist then we're either extremely overpowered again or Affinity's claim is fake.

This is a theory, true, but it's enough to make me doubt Affinity's claim somewhat. I'm less afraid of the consequences of his lynch now.

Sodium

  • pew pew lasers
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #433 on: May 22, 2009, 09:15:51 PM »
Quote from: Affinity
How did I start off as good?  More importantly, what is wrong against Zakeri with taking pesco's side in the argument.  Gosh can you evaluate the reasons for the actions instead of the actions themselves?  Furthermore, apologetic moe does nothing for me.
1.You made two posts which I thought gave good reasoning for your votes on Kanako, and gave your opinions on other people, showing that you were paying attention to everyone else. I thought they were good posts.

2.Zakeri was being stubborn and thinking that Pesco was 100% town, and he was siding with everyone who was arguing with Roukan. And his reason for voting Roukan originally was because he voted Pesco, and because he thought Pesco was town, so Roukan must be scum. Argued to death already, but I don't feel like letting Zakeri off this, because of his Day 2.

3.I'm guessing this is a rhetorical question.

Roleclaim is a bit shaky, because you tracked the dead guy which would be easy to fake, but it'd probably be better to trust it for now.

@Roukan:In my opinion, Town!Alice (at least from RWoS) doesn't post much(known as Lurker for a reason), but when he posts, he usually gives good reasons for his vote(change or why he's staying), gives opinions on most of new posts, and answers questions directed at him WELL. Unless I missed something, I think that he has all of those.

@Serp:Word Limit/10. I'll do something in my next post.

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #434 on: May 22, 2009, 09:53:45 PM »
@Roukan:In my opinion, Town!Alice (at least from RWoS) doesn't post much(known as Lurker for a reason), but when he posts, he usually gives good reasons for his vote(change or why he's staying), gives opinions on most of new posts, and answers questions directed at him WELL. Unless I missed something, I think that he has all of those.
- His reasoning for lynching you was your use of meta (do you agree that every case you've made today is based on meta?),  and because Pesco wanted you to play.
- Not seeing THAT much in terms of commenting on new posts. Maybe something here or there, but seems mostly reactionary.
- Still haven't received clarification on the point about 'Edible being non-obvtown = scummy'.

So yeah. I'm interested more in how you're so sure he's Town when he's adamant in getting you lynched.

Nietz

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Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World) [Replacement Needed]
« Reply #435 on: May 22, 2009, 10:00:45 PM »
Vote count:

Zakeri (1): Carthrat. Roukanken, Sodium Peroxide
Serpentarius (1): Affinity
Edible (1): Sodium Peroxide, Carthrat
Affinity (3): Edible, Zakeri, Roukanken, Serpentarius, Serpentarius
Alice (1): Carthrat
Sodium (1): Alice

Not voting: u?, Roukanken

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Affinity is at L-2.

5 hours remaining.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 10:03:25 PM by Nietz »

Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #436 on: May 22, 2009, 11:01:55 PM »
@Serp:

Okay, fair, but in this post, Kiro said vague things about how pesco could hypothetically know that Baity is a bomb (which is already a stretch, etc.), and has gone suddenly from slightly supporting pesco the entire game to being confident enough to vote pesco without noting down a single thing he did.  Therefore I decided to track him.

Also, you are dodging my questions.  This is not an Aesop about scumhunting virtues, mind you, it is about presenting logical conclusions from logical premises.  Your conclusions aren't logical.  You haven't even pointed out the exact faults of my case against you, really.  Lastly, for you string of opinions in post 429, there is not a shred of reasoning or justification.  For each case, why?  Lots of waffling.  If you agree with Carthrat, do you find Alice scummy?  Why don't you agree with Alice.  Et cetra.

---

Quite interesting to see Rou engage in setup speculation like that, judging that there was a Bug Cop and a Scout last game.  Theory is by no means set in stone, or even sand for that matter.

Jana

  • mrgrgr
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Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #437 on: May 22, 2009, 11:34:48 PM »
Vote Count:

No Change.

Deadline is in ~4.5 hours.

(Just posting quickly to say that I won't be around during deadline. However, even if Nietz isn't around either, please respect the rules and stop posting.)

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #438 on: May 22, 2009, 11:39:49 PM »
Quite interesting to see Rou engage in setup speculation like that, judging that there was a Bug Cop and a Scout last game.  Theory is by no means set in stone, or even sand for that matter.
My main point is that we had three roles in that game - Scout, Cop, and Kavorkian Doc. If this theory holds we have four including you, and otherwise there's little reason for the GF to exist. For the same reason as with the previous game, 4 Town roles in a 13-player game = overpowered.

Sodium

  • pew pew lasers
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #439 on: May 22, 2009, 11:49:44 PM »
@Edible:Nice commentary on Affinity's cut post

@Roukan:
-Not every single one, although I have been relying on meta too much. Also, I mostly ignored the point about how Pesco wanted an Alert Replacement because frankly, I thought that Pesco was just looking for townie cred there. Oh, and that was originally from Edible, I think, and he never brought it up again.
-Okay, I might be an idiot here. Although I was thinking more about Day 1. =| I'll do a reread.
-wait, wut? That was directed to me? Whoops. Anyways, it was more that Edible seemed like he was hiding something, although it doesn't seem like that anymore. I guess it was a combination of gut feeling, paranoia, and lack of posting.

...someone having a case on me means that I should think they're scum/enemy to town? I mean, I wish he wasn't trying to get me, and get scum, but at least he's doing something.

@Serp:
I sorta dropped my opinions on everyone before, but I guess those are dated. All of these are short though, and player lists suck.

Carth-Neutral, he's been playing well, giving his suspicions, but I like how he says he's suspicious of Edible, but doesn't actually do much about it.

Roukan-ProbTown, doubt that Pesco and him could simulate such a colourful battle, and he's been active, scumhunting,etc.

UKumu-Player needs Post Badly, and to exist.

And then I ran out of words. Yeah. >_> Other's later.

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #440 on: May 22, 2009, 11:53:14 PM »
-wait, wut? That was directed to me? Whoops.
No, I was pointing out that there were questions which Alice left unanswered.

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #441 on: May 22, 2009, 11:54:03 PM »
EBWOP:
Quote
...someone having a case on me means that I should think they're scum/enemy to town? I mean, I wish he wasn't trying to get me, and get scum, but at least he's doing something.
So you think his attack makes sense? You have no objections to what he's saying about you? o_o

Affinity

  • hoho
  • ... but I have promises to keep.
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #442 on: May 22, 2009, 11:55:15 PM »
Quote
My main point is that we had three roles in that game - Scout, Cop, and Kavorkian Doc. If this theory holds we have four including you, and otherwise there's little reason for the GF to exist. For the same reason as with the previous game, 4 Town roles in a 13-player game = overpowered.

Okay... but dreamscape changers don't really break the game to be honest; the best I can see is that Kiro could be confirmed once the dreamscape is changed.  And a bomb could have gone either way in my opinion, especially with Baity.

FinnKaenbyou

  • Formerly Roukanken
  • *
  • blub blub nya
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #443 on: May 23, 2009, 12:03:22 AM »
Okay... but dreamscape changers don't really break the game to be honest; the best I can see is that Kiro could be confirmed once the dreamscape is changed.  And a bomb could have gone either way in my opinion, especially with Baity.
The fact remains they're roles that are attempting to aid town. If there are really that many then almost half the Town have special roles, and that seems ever so slightly hard to believe.

Sodium

  • pew pew lasers
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #444 on: May 23, 2009, 12:11:05 AM »
EBWOP:So you think his attack makes sense? You have no objections to what he's saying about you? o_o
I have objections, but it was true I was using meta too much, and I can't do anything about Pesco asking for a Alert replacement, can I?

And I gtg eat now. I'll post the other half later of my list later. >_>

Carthrat

  • HITLER OF LURKERS
  • MEIN MAIDENKAMPF
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #445 on: May 23, 2009, 12:46:05 AM »
Quote from: SodiumPeroxide
Carth-Neutral, he's been playing well, giving his suspicions, but I like how he says he's suspicious of Edible, but doesn't actually do much about it.

Apart from vote for him? I'll use my MIGHTY KUNG-FU POWERS to just eliminate him from the game next time, then. </sarcasm>

Edible: What does a counterclaim have to do with anything? It's not like we were told 'there is only one tracker!' or any other obvious clues. Yeah your vote's still on him but you've already said you buy the claim. Actions not matching words. Again, what's going on here, and plz to make up your mind?

Serp: Which part of my analysis do you agree with, given our completely divergent votes for... hmm.. almost the entire game?

Sodium

  • pew pew lasers
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #446 on: May 23, 2009, 12:55:27 AM »
Edible-Neutral/Town, because he's sorta acting obvtown right now. Although he did that when he was scum. =V But anyways, he has been scum hunting, and looking for the solutions that would be best for town.

Alice-Do I have to do one of these? Because I already said stuff. Neutral/Town

Serp-Neutral/Scum, because 387 seemed like a suggestion to quickly lynch someone. Edible, although agreeing with it, asked Nietz to check if it was beneficial before agreeing, while Serp said "LET'S LYNCH SOMEONE BEFORE THE DEADLINE". Also, he pretty much avoided Affinity's opinion question by saying that he was posting opinions and pursing cases, never mind that Affinity was asking about how he backed his opinions.

Apart from vote for him? I'll use my MIGHTY KUNG-FU POWERS to just eliminate him from the game next time, then. </sarcasm>
Yeah, shit, I was about to fix that in this post. >_> I'm an idiot.

Nietz

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Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #447 on: May 23, 2009, 01:00:03 AM »
Votecount is unchanged.

2 hours remaining.

Edible

  • One part the F?hrer, one part the Pope
  • *
  • It's the inevitable return, baby
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #448 on: May 23, 2009, 01:10:12 AM »
Edible: What does a counterclaim have to do with anything?

It doesn't mean anything 100%, but if there's not a counterclaim, then he's (at least) not a confirmed liar.  That's better than nothing.  The fact that it's believable is a point in his favor.

Quote
Yeah your vote's still on him but you've already said you buy the claim. Actions not matching words. Again, what's going on here, and plz to make up your mind?

I'm pretty sure I said "I can buy Affinity's claim"; I by no means instantly declared him town.  I haven't found a better candidate for lynching today, and we have to lynch someone.

My thoughts: SP's flip wouldn't provide enough information today, so I'm not presently interested in his lynch.  Zakeri we've already covered as not a prime candidate either.  u? and Alice haven't existed enough to make much of a case for, Serp and Rou aren't worth pursuing for now.  That leaves Carthrat and Affinity in my eyes, and Affinity's the better candidate there even with his claim.

So yeah, I'll go for an Affinity lynch unless we can find a better case to pursue.

Carthrat

  • HITLER OF LURKERS
  • MEIN MAIDENKAMPF
Re: Yume Nikki Mafia - Dream 2 (Teleport World)
« Reply #449 on: May 23, 2009, 01:19:25 AM »
Quote from: Sodium
Edible-Neutral/Town, because he's sorta acting obvtown right now. Although he did that when he was scum. =V But anyways, he has been scum hunting, and looking for the solutions that would be best for town.

He hasn't since Affinity claimed, and his posts since then have been sort of far from obvtown. (what traits define 'obvtown', anyway? without being able to put his actions into context against those of known scum and demonstrate how they must be having town/scum interactions I can't see how this conclusion can be reached.)

Where the heck is uu? Why is my rage against replacements increasing

Ninja: Oh! So you can buy it, but you choose not to.

Also, you declare SP's flip arbitrarily won't give information and so it's not very good (way to not choose over his scumminess), and Alice has had nonpresence for like two days and that's not really alarming to you.

umu has hax, but UK's posting wasn't stellar either, you can look at that instead of him.

Frankly, if it's not you, Alice or SP are much preferred to Affinity, since if he's scum there's a non-trivial chance he'll fuck up because he claimed tracker and might accidentally track some dude with a power role, but report nothing. (Hell, that's a compelling reason to not claim tracker as scum in the first place, when I think about it. Yet he did.)

Man, even if there was a counterclaim, what stops there being two trackers?