Touhou Remix: Game Over Man, Game Over!

[FinnKaenbyou]

When there's a long period without any posts, you've got to consider that the last post in the thread has something to do with that.  11 hour gaps just aren't normal.  The clearest explanation is that Moonspeak's post scared people away.  The one above all that should have been expected to post in that interval was Alice Margatroid.

What about the fact that the majority of the players would have been asleep around that time?
You're forgetting that there was still at least 48 hours left. To honestly think that there wouldn't be time in that for someone to make a post worth commenting on is a little jumpy.

Whether it was a joke vote or not is still up in the air.  I find it strange that you're now referring to the vote as though you're certain that it was a joke.  In any case, what matters is how it looked, and I believe there was ambiguity there.

I still can't understand how a claim of mistaken identity can be interpreted as anything other than a joke.

Serpentarius sent us into real voting by giving us something to talk about. It's pretty obvious that we're going to get something productive from the day given the numerous reactions that have resulted.

I'm not sure about this, personally, since more or less everyone agreed that the post was a joke:

how the fuck did you write so many words about nothing at all

Serp: I don't get why you thought Tenshi's vote was serious.

I didn't think (as probably most other people) of Tenshi's vote as anything other than a joke.

Tenshi clearly has no idea what the hell he's doing,

For the Record, what I would have said was "What's wrong with being me? "

I actually thought Serpentarius was fooling around and being comically overdramatic until I read his response to Kiro.

Also, Tenshi's vote looked like a random vote to me, so I don't understand what Serp is saying at all with his purple prose.

I don't think Tenshi was trying to make a serious vote.

Moreover, where did it seem that Moonspeak's vote was actually serious? I'm not seeing it.

In fact, the only person who seems to AGREE with you that Tenshi's post was worth commenting on is Xan.

What I REALLY don't like about Serp's RVS-ending post, though, is how much it lectures Tenshi into not doing something like this again. This awkwardness only gets multiplied when I look at Tenshi's 'Vote Serp for suspecting my joke OH WAIT NO Vote Alice for pointing out I did something wrong'.

Besides who would make a newbie to became a Mafia anyway?

Soooooooo much WIFOM. -_-

Currently wondering about the possibility of a Serp/Tenshi pair, with the former trying to end RVS before his partner could actually say something worth talking about.

It did generate discussion, and yet Roukanken is still going after him for it, even if he doesn't have his vote laid down there.

The only discussion that vote generated was a wave of 'wait that's clearly a joke vote what the hell are you talking about Serp'. If he had just called out Alice on lurking that probably would've been fine by me, but the fact that more than half of the RVS-ending post is telling Tenshi 'don't do this, don't do that' really unnerves me. Indeed, his point on Alice assumes that Tenshi's vote is genuine, a point pretty much no-one else agrees with him on.

Nietz needs to give an opinion right about now, and I want Xan to explain precisely why he found Tenshi's vote so suspicious as to be worth commenting on.

Jan putting Alice to L-3 for not posting is sort of weird, especially since it was solely for lurking. I'll take a look at his 'concrete' case to see if he produces anything useful.

And since when was I voting Suwako? >_>

The Kitten may be Uncertain, but we're quite sure you didn't unvote

[Hououin Kyouma]

When there's a long period without any posts, you've got to consider that the last post in the thread has something to do with that.  11 hour gaps just aren't normal.  The clearest explanation is that Moonspeak's post scared people away.  The one above all that should have been expected to post in that interval was Alice Margatroid.

What about the fact that the majority of the players would have been asleep around that time?
You're forgetting that there was still at least 48 hours left. To honestly think that there wouldn't be time in that for someone to make a post worth commenting on is a little jumpy.

Whether it was a joke vote or not is still up in the air.  I find it strange that you're now referring to the vote as though you're certain that it was a joke.  In any case, what matters is how it looked, and I believe there was ambiguity there.

I still can't understand how a claim of mistaken identity can be interpreted as anything other than a joke.

Serpentarius sent us into real voting by giving us something to talk about. It's pretty obvious that we're going to get something productive from the day given the numerous reactions that have resulted.

I'm not sure about this, personally, since more or less everyone agreed that the post was a joke:

how the fuck did you write so many words about nothing at all

Serp: I don't get why you thought Tenshi's vote was serious.

I didn't think (as probably most other people) of Tenshi's vote as anything other than a joke.

Tenshi clearly has no idea what the hell he's doing,

For the Record, what I would have said was "What's wrong with being me? "

I actually thought Serpentarius was fooling around and being comically overdramatic until I read his response to Kiro.

Also, Tenshi's vote looked like a random vote to me, so I don't understand what Serp is saying at all with his purple prose.

I don't think Tenshi was trying to make a serious vote.

Moreover, where did it seem that Moonspeak's vote was actually serious? I'm not seeing it.

In fact, the only person who seems to AGREE with you that Tenshi's post was worth commenting on is Xan.

What I REALLY don't like about Serp's RVS-ending post, though, is how much it lectures Tenshi into not doing something like this again. This awkwardness only gets multiplied when I look at Tenshi's 'Vote Serp for suspecting my joke OH WAIT NO Vote Alice for pointing out I did something wrong'.

Besides who would make a newbie to became a Mafia anyway?

Soooooooo much WIFOM. -_-

Currently wondering about the possibility of a Serp/Tenshi pair, with the former trying to end RVS before his partner could actually say something worth talking about.

It did generate discussion, and yet Roukanken is still going after him for it, even if he doesn't have his vote laid down there.

The only discussion that vote generated was a wave of 'wait that's clearly a joke vote what the hell are you talking about Serp'. If he had just called out Alice on lurking that probably would've been fine by me, but the fact that more than half of the RVS-ending post is telling Tenshi 'don't do this, don't do that' really unnerves me. Indeed, his point on Alice assumes that Tenshi's vote is genuine, a point pretty much no-one else agrees with him on.

Nietz needs to give an opinion right about now, and I want Xan to explain precisely why he found Tenshi's vote so suspicious as to be worth commenting on.

Jan putting Alice to L-3 for not posting is sort of weird, especially since it was solely for lurking. I'll take a look at his 'concrete' case to see if he produces anything useful.

And since when was I voting Suwako? >_>

Thank you! Now I know more about mafia and what to do and what not to do 

[Carthrat]

You're still voting for alice and not telling us why. Man, actually, pop quiz time, what exactly did you learn, in your own words?

[Hououin Kyouma]

Are you allowed theories in this thread? These are just my opinions so don't get offended 
*Sherlock Holmes Mode ON*

##Unvote: Alice I changed my mind. Not going to vote, until some progression

My opinions:
Serp - Still suspicious (maybe he wanted to get the game started fast, so he make a overreacted post so that everyone would complain to him, but the person at the start who gets the most vote won't be lynched at the end because someone else will get the people's attention and then Serp would be saved)

Roukanken - doesn't seem or feels like a scum or a townie at the moment

Alice - Don't know why I voted him/her (now I feel like ass for making Unesco count and making Alice feel bad if s/he is a Townie).

I personally find everyone suspicious to some degree. Don't know why..... *shivers*

Or maybe I am just crazy.... (mostly likely this)

Edit: I learnt what WIFOM meant from Roukanken and that you need to have extremely long opinions on why I should vote people and that I need to back them up by quoting each of them. And also I mostly likely won't post for 12-15hours sorry....  And why are you guys crazy over one RVS vote? (and it was Pancake or Ramus (I think) that thought Zakeri was me, if anyone is curious)

[FinnKaenbyou]

Alice - Don't know why I voted him/her

[Hououin Kyouma]

Alice - Don't know why I voted him/her

Sorry grammatical error

Counterparting yours


I don't like imagespam that I can't see on my phone

[Carthrat]

and that you need to have extremely long opinions on why I should vote people and that I need to back them up by quoting each of them

all lies, a short paragraph explaining why will do in many cases, and additional text should be included only as necessary. further exploration of reasons occurs through discussion nobody agrees with me though.

So.

I thought Rou was talking out of his ass when he mentioned pairings so early. And then I realised that Moon actually kneejerk unvoted Serp, cutting himself off, quickly voted Alice and then vanished.

Given the way he's posting I can totally see him forgetting Serp is a buddy of his and suddenly feeling obligated to move his vote when he remembers/rechecks his PM. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Moon. I did think that if he was scum, he'd try and dream up some reason to have voted Alice, but if he's just trying to mobilize his vote...

[Maid Xan~]

Okay, Moonspeak's play seems to me to be trying too hard to seem like a newbie. Yes, some of it is legitamate newb behavior, but seriously? Voting for someone for NO reason? Especially when you had given reason's why someone else's play made you suspicious? That's a bit hard for me to believe. I don't care if he's a new player, it should be blatantly obvious that if you accuse some one of something you have to give reasons- Not neccessarily strong reasons, but at least SOME reasons. I find this all highly suspect, and at the very least anti-town play.

##Unvote

##Vote Tenshi

I remembered to unvote this time.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Sorry grammatical error

Wait, so your response to "alright, what the shit, why did you vote Alice with no reason, this is anti-town behaviour at best and scummy behaviour at worst, which are ultimately really the same thing functionally on Day freaking One", is "Sorry, grammatical error"? What?

Your play so far has been nothing BUT horribly anti-town and full of bizarre non-sequitors and extreme noob scum mistakes. Part of me thinks that nobody is this scummy, then I remembered ras255's first game and...yeah.

I'd like some actual opinions on who you actually think is scummy. No, you don't have to type up paragraphs, in fact too many words is bad. Just provide some reasoning why you think someone is scum. So far you have offered nothing of value whatsoever, despite posting far more than some of the "lurkers" in this thread so far, and weird connections between you and Serp, and you and Kiro worry me even more.

Therefore, ##Unvote, ##Vote: Moonspeak

@Unesco: for the votecount without a song, let me recommend Whatever the title of this is (I just call it Jimang Necrofantasia), by Jimang. It's quite easily my favourite vocal arrange of a touhou song.

I already added a song to that votecount. I shall consider this for a future one

EDIT:Oh fuck yeah! That guy does the Umineko ending theme!

[WHMZakeri]

Alice - Don't know why I voted him/her

Reaction Image

Counter Reaction Image

Days So's is the most Unjustified response since ... since Serp's responce to Days So's random vote.

I learnt what WIFOM meant from Roukanken and that you need to have extremely long opinions on why I should vote people and that I need to back them up by quoting each of them.

Okay, for starters, all you really need to make a case is a list of valid points, one sentence long each (that are valid!)

Don't be put off by our words words words ability to complicate even the smallest details. In Fact, Simple is best, because then you'd know people are just talking from the other end of their digestive track when they ignore a list of simple points.

And finally, I can only forgive you for this once, but you have to make absolutely certain you have some reason for voting people. It's understandable to feel everyone is slightly scummy because going off of probability, we're all at least 30% Scum as far as town knows. Firing aimlessly doesn't work, though.

Let's see .... weird OMGUS, Weird, unjustified switch to Alice. Weird switch back to Serp without a vote. There's a lot here to justify a bandwagon, and judging from the people posting while I'm typing, it's a fairly easy bandwagon to leap onto. I'm interested in where this is heading.

One thing that does Urk me is people accusing other people of "Coaching" the newbie. Does that imply we should just let him sink instead of teaching him how to swim?

[FinnKaenbyou]

So far you have offered nothing of value whatsoever, despite posting far more than some of the "lurkers" in this thread so far, and weird connections between you and Serp, and you and Kiro worry me even more.

I agree on the Serp/Tenshi connection, but would you mind clarifying the Kiro/Tenshi link?

But yes, Tenshi is just getting worse and worse with every post. Currently looking at a Tenshi/Serp lynch, but also want Nietz to HAVE AN OPINION and Xan to explain what exactly is so bad about Tenshi's post since he agrees with Serp on it. Waiting on Jan's 'concrete' case as well.

Zak ninja:

One thing that does Urk me is people accusing other people of "Coaching" the newbie. Does that imply we should just let him sink instead of teaching him how to swim?

Is it that much of a tragedy if a Mafioso drowns?
People learn by making mistakes, and that won't mean anything if we just let new players away with it because they're new. Plus coaching can be a distinct way for scumbuddies to advise each other during day in a game with no scumtalk.

[Carthrat]

One thing that does Urk me is people accusing other people of "Coaching" the newbie. Does that imply we should just let him sink instead of teaching him how to swim?

Yes, on the grounds that while this is bad for the newbie, it's good for town for him to be wearing his thoughts on his sleeve than for him to just go 'well okay!' and blindly follow the instructions he's given; this applies double during day one in this very game, where potential scumbuddies would not yet have gotten a chance to coach him.

[Carthrat]

I'll field that one, too.

Oh Tenshi, Serp wasn't voting you. You got to get your facts straight or people will question you on those errors. Maybe I'lll see a clarification of your case on Serp or someone else tomorrow morning.

is what I noticed.

[Nietz]

This statement feels sort of off. Serp's entire point is that not contributing is a scumtell because discussion is good for Town, and Nietz follows up with 'trying to start legitimate conversation is a nulltell because scum could do it as well'. Isn't that sort of contradictory?

Huh? How is it contradictory that I don't agree with Serp?

Nietz: If you don't think that Serp is worth suspicion, what about Alice? Is there anyone you have anything on right now?

I mentioned some points I found suspicious about him in that very same post. As for Alice, I don't find anything scummy about him so far. In fact, I'm more suspicious of everyone that jumped on Alice, since the case on him clearly wouldn't go anywhere and he was a good target for placeholder votes at the time. Zakeri and Jan both seemed to be doing exactly that.

I previously said I found weird Serp's attitude about proper town conduct during RVS. That got worse in his subsequent posts, as he insisted that Tenshi's post could have been taken seriously even when he was clearly the only one who seemed to believe. And particularly, his repeated statement that starting a serious case there was definitely the Pro-Town Thing To Do Even If It Hurts Me looks like trying too hard to be town.

Tenshi's behaviour though, is worse than everything else so far. Especially voting Alice then backtracking when questioned without even giving a decent reason. It looks like a newbscum behaviour if I ever saw one. Only thing that gives me some doubts about him is the past case of wrathie. Still, he tops my suspicion list right now.

##Vote 天使

[WHMZakeri]

Is it that much of a tragedy if a Mafioso drowns?

>Implying someone is scum because they are stupid.

Laughingelfman.jpg

The problem with calling people out on coaching is that it assumes scumpairs because people are trying to help out the newbie. Yes, He's doing things that are legitimately scummy. Yes, he's being weird about who he's voting and why. Yes, he's a good bandwagon to start on. What I would find crueler than Telling him why what he's doing is wrong, is voting him and then not telling him what he's doing wrong.

Alice completely blows the Reaction image point out of the water with that accusation that all he can say about not having reasons for voting is "Sorry for the typo." I think this clearly illustrates the idea that he doesn't properly get why making certain you have reasons is an important part of voting.

Days So says something Stupid. Roukanken Gives him a funny look. It's now up to Days So, at this point to guess why Roukanken gave him a funny look, since it wasn't explained to him. Obviously he guessed wrong. Again, why would explaining how the game is played to him "Coaching" When it's obvious he needs to be "Coached" whether or not he has scum buddies to do so?

So what if We lynch Days So and he comes up scum? Does that mean we should then Lynch Kiro just for the little point Carth just now brought up?

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

So what if We lynch Days So and he comes up scum? Does that mean we should then Lynch Kiro just for the little point Carth just now brought up?

No, but it does mean that Kiro warrants closer observation from now on. Since when did FoS turn into Daykill, anyway?

[Suwako Moriya]

I'm not sure about this, personally, since more or less everyone agreed that the post was a joke

And yet discussion about Serpentarius still came forth as a result of his vote, and discussion stemmed from that discussion, such as Kiro going after Nietz for not holding an opinion on him.

Tenshi is just all sorts of what. I have nothing new to add here, everyone else did a nice enough job already. I'd like to request a vote count so we can see exactly where we stand numerically in regards to him.

Nietz's response to accusations of not holding an opinion is to hop on a bandwagon. Smooth.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Huh? How is it contradictory that I don't agree with Serp?

Because you wrote his opinion off as a nulltell despite thinking something pretty different.

Is it that much of a tragedy if a Mafioso drowns?

>Implying someone is scum because they are stupid.

Laughingelfman.jpg

I wasn't saying Tenshi is Mafioso because he's stupid. I'm saying that he could be Mafioso and as such we shouldn't just look over his mistakes.

The problem with calling people out on coaching is that it assumes scumpairs because people are trying to help out the newbie. Yes, He's doing things that are legitimately scummy. Yes, he's being weird about who he's voting and why. Yes, he's a good bandwagon to start on. What I would find crueler than Telling him why what he's doing is wrong, is voting him and then not telling him what he's doing wrong.

There's a difference between 'Tenshi is doing A B and C and thus he's scummy, vote Tenshi' and 'Tenshi, be careful. In those last posts you did A B and C. No vote'.

Alice completely blows the Reaction image point out of the water with that accusation that all he can say about not having reasons for voting is "Sorry for the typo." I think this clearly illustrates the idea that he doesn't properly get why making certain you have reasons is an important part of voting.

So...what? We ignore him and potentially let his actual scumtells slip by?

So what if We lynch Days So and he comes up scum? Does that mean we should then Lynch Kiro just for the little point Carth just now brought up?

Or Serp, given his strange reaction to Tenshi's post and Tenshi's following reluctance to vote back despite declaring his suspicions of him.

Jiraiya Frog Ninja:

And yet discussion about Serpentarius still came forth as a result of his vote, and discussion stemmed from that discussion, such as Kiro going after Nietz for not holding an opinion on him.

I'll accept this point, but my problem with Serp is that he saw Tenshi's post as the one to end RVS rather than his own based on a simple awkward silence and a joke vote. It feels paranoid, to be honest.

[Suwako Moriya]

##Unvote: Roukanken
##Vote: Nietz

The more I sit on this the more it bothers me.

Reporting, sitting on fences and a bandwagon vote. No, sir, I don't like it. Give us something original.

Cut by Roukanken: Fair enough.

[Affinity]

@Suwako:

While I agree with you on differences on misguided opinions and such, you haven't really provided reasons as to why it isn't scummy.  Zakeri may have done the same thing as you did, but he did give extensive reasons, I think.  But in any case, for now,

##Unvote

How are you not sitting on fences with regards to Serp, btw?

---

In any case, Moon is bewilderingly bad, but that is to be expected with wrathie as his coach.  I don't particularly find him too scummy yet, since, after all, it is his very first game, and the talk about scumbuddies are all WIFOM in sheep's clothing; he could just as likely be clueless town.  If he doesn't know what WIFOM is, I doubt he knows the function of a vote in this game after all, though yes, it still has to be counted against him.

More intersting to me are the people who jumped on him, espcially Xan who seemed to drop every single concern he had on Carthrat herebeforehand and suddenly bank everything on the Tenshi thing.  It almost seems as if he is scum trying to capitalize on opportunities, especially since Carthrat didn't do anything but to deny him between the two posts.  Therefore...

##Vote: Xan

---

In any case, Serp's presence will be important as to his opinions on Tenshi.  So is Jan-san's, since he always seems to have the habit of promising much and delivering little (or nothing at all).  Zakeri's off-tangent about coaching seems really exaggerated (about the Kiro lynch) and doesn't seem right at all, especially when it doesn't do much to the game. 

[Suwako Moriya]

To assume misguided opinions are inherently scummy is to assume townies never make mistakes in thought processes. I think we can agree that this is obviously not the case.

And if you really need it flatly spelled out for you, I do not think what Serpentarius did was scummy, and I do not think what he has done since is scummy.

[Jana]

Tenshi is just all sorts of what. I have nothing new to add here, everyone else did a nice enough job already. I'd like to request a vote count so we can see exactly where we stand numerically in regards to him.

That's how I feel now too, but I promised something, so I'll deliver.

That actually means "I am active lurking and dropping meaningless votes past the time that's permitted", correct?

I mostly wanted to get some thoughts down before going to bed. I have meta working against me, so I have to at least make an effort to get online and post... Especially since this is my first game in a while.

I didn't see Tenshi as anything more than a newbie making all sorts of mistakes, but his random Alice vote does feel suspicious. Still, I'm not jumping on the wagon of what looks like a policy lynch because Serp still feels too-townie at the same time. I don't really think they're a scumpair either... More like Tenshi's kneejerk play was out of newbie worry.

Tenshi may be the policy lynch of Day 1, but I'd rather wait to vote. I don't honestly believe he's scum. I'm going to ##Vote Serpentarius because it feels like he may be scum trying to jump onto the first possible case.

As an aside, I don't see a problem in letting Tenshi know what's wrong if it lets him improve as a player.

Cut by 4 people:

There's a difference between 'Tenshi is doing A B and C and thus he's scummy, vote Tenshi' and 'Tenshi, be careful. In those last posts you did A B and C. No vote'.

Pretty much sums up why I think Serp is too-townie. A Day 1 vote can be seen as a warning, but Serp's reaction to a joke vote is what raised a flag to me.

So is Jan-san's, since he always seems to have the habit of promising much and delivering little (or nothing at all).

My bad. I'm interested in your case on Xan, though. I'm not switching my vote, but it's certainly worth following up on.

[Unesco]

The Fifth "Vocalise!" Vote Count

"Jimang Shot～高音質"

Roukanken (0):
Affinity (0)
Carthrat (0)
Nietz (1): Suwako Moriya
Suwako Moriya (1): Roukanken
Xan (1): Affinity
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0):
Serpentarius (3): Kiro, Zakeri, Jan-san
Alice (1): Serpentarius
Jan-san (0):
天使 (4): Carthrat, Xan, Alice, Nietz


Not Voting (1): 天使

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
天使 is at L-3

Deadline is in two days at 3 PM EST, Wednesday, August 5th

[Nietz]

@Suwako:
I can only assume you are either reading only half of each post or purposely misinterpreting them.
Not only I reiterated last post that I had an opinion on Serp, though it wasn't strong enough at the time, as I made my opinion clear on everyone involved after there was something to opine on. But since you just focused on the Tenshi vote, should I have avoided voting for the one who is by far the scummiest just because other people had as well?

[WHMZakeri]

I wasn't saying Tenshi is Mafioso because he's stupid. I'm saying that he could be Mafioso and as such we shouldn't just look over his mistakes.

Then why did you word it as if it was common knowledge that he would flip scum when lynched? Or are you saying lynching him as town is still a better idea than teaching him how to play the game as town?

So...what? We ignore him and potentially let his actual scumtells slip by?

WHAT? Where did I say we shouldn't be helping him understand what he's doing wrong!?

More importantly, how is not understanding how what he did was scummy inherently scummy?

If we're going to spend every game going after newbies for making mistakes that they can't even tell are mistakes, then maybe we should start refusing Newbies and directing them Here Instead.

To assume misguided opinions are inherently scummy is to assume townies never make mistakes in thought processes. I think we can agree that this is obviously not the case.

This. Seriously. This is actually part of my reasoning for voting for Serp - The fact that he seems to think he can get away with voting for anyone just by acting like he thinks it's the best possible vote he can make under the circumstances.

[Serp]

Now, I realize we're not all in the same time zone (Sup, Rou.) Or on the same sleeping Schedual, but this eleven hour period was from 11:00 P.M. to 10:00 A.M. the next day. I feel a much more simpler conclusion is that a majority of the people were sleeping through most or part of this time.

Consider the same time period from last night.  Look at all that activity.  MotK never sleeps.

Here, you even admit that Alice's Lurking is not a scumtell. Basically, the only point you're holding Against Alice Effectively is that you believe Alice came on, saw the vote against Me, thought it was serious even though you're the only one who did think it could be serious, and choose not to post, risking being called out on not taking part of the RVS so that you would be less likely to call her out on ignoring Days So's random vote.

Yes, that's exactly it.  It was a weak point to generate discussion from a stillborn RVS phase.  Now that Alice has put forward a useful response, and everyone's reacted to my case in one way or another, it's really not worth holding anymore.

##Unvote

This is actually part of my reasoning for voting for Serp - The fact that he seems to think he can get away with voting for anyone just by acting like he thinks it's the best possible vote he can make under the circumstances.

You know, you still haven't answered my question about what you think would have been a better vote at the time.

Currently, I'm not liking the way that Roukanken has moved from "Serp's exit from RVS is scummy" to "Serp's coaching of Moonspeak is scummy."  When you make a case against someone, and that case is refuted, drawing additional reasons from the original post you found scummy looks bad.  I see Roukanken following his standard MO of "I think [X] is scum and therefore everyone he associates with is scummy."  This is expected due to meta, but considering that you end up calling yourself out for it by the end of every game, Roukanken, maybe you should try to be a little more self-aware? :V

I'm also not satisfied with the coaching point itself.  It's one thing to let a newbie wear his heart on his sleeve, but it's another entirely to let him be incomprehensible and useless.  When we experienced mafia players call each other out on WIFOM, we're basically using shorthand for "This is what I think you're doing and this is why I think it's bad."  Explaining the reasoning behind why a particular scumtell is considered a scumtell is meant to let the newbie follow the case against him and, if he has some townie reason for following that course of action, to allow him to explain it.  The difference between coaching a newbie and telling an experienced player why you're voting for him is one of degree, not of kind.

Zakeri's bad for talking himself into a corner about how his own Alice vote is useless, then jumping onto my bandwagon.  I wish he'd comment on more cases than just mine and Moonspeak's - he's trying too hard to defend the newbie.  Jan-san is foremost among those players that don't have enough opinions.  No, wait, I've been ninja'd, now he's on my bandwagon.  And he's calling me too townie, and backing that up with a vote.  Bleh.  I'm not at all impressed with his reasoning there.  I want to know just what he means by "too townie."

As for Moonspeak himself, he is clearly the safest lynch from a game theory perspective.  He's made some moves that look a lot more like scum trying to follow the crowd than townie trying to find scum, and I really don't see him helping the town hunt scum over the next few days.  We're getting into the last third of the day, and we should be settling on a lynch.  I was hoping that we'd be able to come up with a better case than a D1 newbie lynch, but for all that I'm not too happy with some of the other players' conduct, I don't think that any of it is lynchworthy, and I think we should give them 'till Day 2 to see what they do.

##Vote Moonspeak (L-2)

[Suwako Moriya]

@Nietz: Your previous post about Serpentarius (the one linked with "sitting on fences") saw two conclusions from you.

Of course, a scum could do that just as well as a townie, so that was a null tell.

Could be scum making too much effort to look town, but I'm not too convinced right now.

Neither of these makes me think you actually felt strongly what you said. There's nothing concrete here.

Your second post was admittedly better in its reference to Zakeri and Jan-san, even given that Carthrat already went over them. The vote, however, just looks like a blatant bandwagon, and it's no problem at all for scum to hide behind "I'm just voting for who I think is scummiest" to try to justify a bandwagon vote. It also took impact away from your note about Zakeri and Jan-san, making your comments about them look like little more than a token attempt to contribute.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Then why did you word it as if it was common knowledge that he would flip scum when lynched? Or are you saying lynching him as town is still a better idea than teaching him how to play the game as town?

Firstly, you're arguing semantics here, which peopel were calling me out for in Umineko.
Secondly, if I have no reason to believe he is a Townie - and at this point I don't - I don't see why voting him is a bad idea. Every post from him up to now has been full of poorly explained voting, sudden vote changes and generally saying nothing of any use.

WHAT? Where did I say we shouldn't be helping him understand what he's doing wrong!?

Yeah, that point was sarcasm if you didn't notice it.
I'm saying that if we immediately give him a free pass because he's a new player and don't suspect him as scum, then
1) We don't get our lynches and we lose.
2) Tenshi gets rewarded for playing badly which will obviously promote being a 'bad' player.

Thus the only logical way for him to learn is a School Of Hard Knocks method - when he makes a mistake, someone points it out and punishes him with a vote. Being too lenient on him because he's new helps no-one.

More importantly, how is not understanding how what he did was scummy inherently scummy?

At what point did I say that? I said that he could make mistakes trying to cover up the fact that he's scum, and based on your 'he's a newbie so he can't be held responsible for his actions' mindset he'd get away with it scot-free.

If we're going to spend every game going after newbies for making mistakes that they can't even tell are mistakes, then maybe we should start refusing Newbies and directing them Here Instead.

How is this point productive? It feels like it's verging on AtE by complaining about newbies.

Oh whee, Serp ninja:

Currently, I'm not liking the way that Roukanken has moved from "Serp's exit from RVS is scummy" to "Serp's coaching of Moonspeak is scummy."

These are the same point. You used that post to exit RVS and at the same time pointed out to Tenshi everything he'd done wrong up until now. Plus I've been calling it coaching for a while.

When you make a case against someone, and that case is refuted, drawing additional reasons from the original post you found scummy looks bad.

Again, I made the coaching point afterwards before your refutation. This doesn't qualify as an 'additional reason'.

I see Roukanken following his standard MO of "I think [X] is scum and therefore everyone he associates with is scummy."  This is expected due to meta, but considering that you end up calling yourself out for it by the end of every game, Roukanken, maybe you should try to be a little more self-aware? :V

Analysing individual scumminess will only get you so far. Analysing relationships between players will get you closer to a final result because in the end that's what you're looking for - a scumteam, not a single scum. In Umineko, by attempting to analyse pairings on D4 I got closer to the actual Carth/Serp scumpair than I managed to get anywhere else in the game.

I'm also not satisfied with the coaching point itself.  It's one thing to let a newbie wear his heart on his sleeve, but it's another entirely to let him be incomprehensible and useless.

People HAVE pointed out what he's doing wrong, and he's STILL incomprehensible and useless. If we go any further we'll practically be playing the game for him.

When we experienced mafia players call each other out on WIFOM, we're basically using shorthand for "This is what I think you're doing and this is why I think it's bad."  Explaining the reasoning behind why a particular scumtell is considered a scumtell is meant to let the newbie follow the case against him and, if he has some townie reason for following that course of action, to allow him to explain it.

Can I not assume that before he showed up here Tenshi did a little research about the game? Can I not assume that he'd have the initiative to look up a phrase he didn't recognise rather than make us explain everything to him?

The difference between coaching a newbie and telling an experienced player why you're voting for him is one of degree, not of kind.

No, the difference is with coaching you don't hold the player responsible for his actions and cut him slack. How are you expected to learn if your mistakes aren't met with consequences?

##Unvote: Suwako
Vote: Serpentarius

Happy now, UK?

Nah, I'ma modkill you now for smarting off to the mod.
I'ma give you 0 for your essay if you gonna be like that

Ok, not really, yes, I'm happy you can follow the rules enumerated in the second post of the thread that I put there for your convenience

[Kiro]

So... just the mere fact I'm advising Tenshi is a no-no? My 3 sentences with their pieces of advice can be summed up as follows.

-I state a fact.
-Being accurate is important.
-Let's see a case with stronger points.

It's just me urging him to do better which is neutral advice. I'm not even remotely hinting at any person or viewpoint he should be angling for and he goes off and does worse even to completely ignore my point #3. I am torn though whether his dropping the case on Serp rather quickly and the unexplained switch to Alice is a sign of anything and I'm waiting for his response.

Currently wondering about the possibility of a Serp/Tenshi pair, with the former trying to end RVS before his partner could actually say something worth talking about.

That reasoning's a bit of a wild speculation. It assumes that Serp would have known Tenshi would say something silly in the future which was not a given at the time Serp ended RVS. And then Serp went and declared Tenshi's vote was something serious and voted Alice. I'm not saying that the scumpair is invalid, but the reason you gave is not clicking for me.

Not sure of Carthrat's thought processes in regards to his voting. He votes Serp first, briefly goes on Zakeri regarding Zakeri switching from Alice to Serp, votes Jan after initially missing him on the end of the Alice wagon, and gets on Tenshi because he suspects a ScumTenshi could have forgotten about a ScumSerp being his buddy. I think your voting record is really fluid and your vote on Zakeri doesn't really match up with your votes on Serp and Tenshi. I'm not sure if it's worth pursuing now, but it stuck out a bit.

Xan's, Alice's and Nietz's vote for Tenshi all kind of flowed together although the reasons are slightly different. Xan has it for him not giving reasons for his vote, while Alice and Nietz are actually calling it noobscum behavior. Not sure why Alice wants to use the comparison of ras255 (I'm assuming ras was scum in this game Alice was referring to) when you could also use the example of Nuclear Fusion (Town) last game. It's a bit of weird selective justification that wasn't necessary to divulge to the rest of us.

Noticed Jan-san's vote for Serp and it doesn't seem too convincing. Voting someone for acting Too Townie to be Town is weak.

Mods: Can we get an updated votecount? Also, the one at #112 has Nietz on Tenshi and Nietz not voting. Can that get fixed please?

Checking it out now. Fixed

[FinnKaenbyou]

Kiro: The line of your post that annoys me the most is this:

Maybe I'lll see a clarification of your case on Serp or someone else tomorrow morning.

This isn't forceful enough, plain and simple. If you think his case on Serpentarius is really that unclear, why is that not a point against him and instead something to just brush aside lightly?

That reasoning's a bit of a wild speculation. It assumes that Serp would have known Tenshi would say something silly in the future which was not a given at the time Serp ended RVS. And then Serp went and declared Tenshi's vote was something serious and voted Alice. I'm not saying that the scumpair is invalid, but the reason you gave is not clicking for me.

It isn't the only reason I gave - remember, I mentioned Tenshi's hasty unvote of Serp onto Alice earlier. This point was just possible reasoning for why they'd do something like that.