Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Hakurei Shrine~ => Rika and Nitori's Garage Experiments => Touhou Projects => Topic started by: ApharmdB on September 09, 2012, 09:50:24 AM
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Defense (for you American English types) of the Shrines, the Remaking
Note: The name of the map might change later on, to avoid confusion with the original over at touhou.cc.
So sometime ago I mentioned that I wanted to rewrite the map, to get rid of the patchwork coding and optimize the thing since the newer versions lag like a beast. FYI the map is approximately twice the size of what you actually see in-game and has a craptonne of custom doodads (trees) and destructables that merely have their names changed. Another source of lag which I may not be able to get rid of for now is the high-poly count models used in the external model pack. It's not noticeable on my desktop, which I will add is jurassic at 8+ years of age, but on my 5 year old netbook (an Asus Eee PC S101), it drops the average fps by about 2 when high-poly Reimu is moving around on-screen as compared to 0.967g Reimu. Anyway...
(http://i46.tinypic.com/15s6jkj.jpg)
As you can see, I've junked almost everything in the map - items, skills, units, custom doodads and destructables, and code. Ignore the regeneration display here - it comes from the maphack that I was testing with for an anti-maphack system that I was writing at that point.
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2jagbpj.jpg)
I'm targeting having only the EoSD and PCB heros done up before the any serious playtests. This should keep things realistically achievable (trying to put in heros from 6 games in the first iteration will kill a lone coder), and yet have enough substance for meaningful playtests. I've also changed the hero selection system back to a tavern one. Hero selection is but one small part of the game and is not worth leaking over 3000 handles in the map that cannot be cleared up because the WC3 engine does not allow one to remove or move trackables. Choose your hero, and get on with the game. I have no idea why so many anime maps are obsessed with Street Fighter-like character selection systems.
(http://i46.tinypic.com/9rjd51.jpg)
The damage system has been replaced with a custom-made one that allows for more efficient (and properly done) damage-adjustment and custom damage types. The damage and buff display system is modeled after Diablo 3's. Damage display can be turned on and off by the -dispdmg command (off by default). Note also a possibly new stat system. Heros will still be classified by Str/Agi/Int internally, though I hope to display this via a dummy skill. This system should allow the regeneration statistic to readily read off (white = hp regen, green = mp regen, both divided by 10 for the actual value per second), but more importantly, I wanted strength to increase hp/hp regen/dmg for str heros, agility to increase aspd/dmg for agi heros, and int to increase mp/mp regen/dmg for int heros, breaking the link between agility and armour. The link between agility and armour always made it difficult to tweak the defences of agility-based heros without ruining other heros as well. Additionally, aspd and dmg synergize well automagically, but the bonuses from the other stat increases do not (not automatically anyway). The reason for this approach, instead of setting it to 0 armour per agility stat point, is that WC3 internally seems to count decimal values for armour and agility but custom abilities can only add integer values. The jury is still out on this one - it's a simple matter to change it back to the old one if I eventually find this too cumbersome to work with. That's another benefit of keeping the character list for the first iteration of the map to only EoSD and PCB heros.
The circular icon in the middle row of the abilities for Reimu is the team pinger. You can now set the countdown to be anywhere between 1s to 9s using the -ping x command.
(http://i49.tinypic.com/34sseog.jpg)
There are currently 8 stores:
1. Groceries (miscellanous stuff, e.g. wards)
2. Travellers' Goods (movement-related stuff)
3. Canteen (consumables)
4. Souvenirs (stat-items and jewellery)
5. Clothes and Fashion (armour)
6. Hardware Store (weapons)
7. Magical Items (exactly what it suggests)
8. Legendary Artefacts (higher-tier items)
The item system has an auto-fuse feature - if you have enough gold for the rest of the items required for a recipe, it will auto-buy and fuse the items for you if you purchase and activate the recipe. And yes you can do things like purchase more TP scrolls with a full inventory. And you have a stash (notice that the shop was selected even though Reimu is nowhere near it)
(http://i49.tinypic.com/2poba6u.jpg)
Pressing Esc will toggle between selecting the shop and the shrine. As of now, the random weather system works. The creep spawning system works. The neutral spawning system works, with linked camps, except for the giant shanghai doll and yukkuri camps (will replace them with something similar later)
(http://i45.tinypic.com/kbwwv7.jpg)
Status system testing - this one will allow for very fast creation of custom status effects as well as on-the-fly adjusting of status effect durations and status effect resistances.
On to other stuff...
Re-designing
Instead of yukkuri couriers, I'm probably going to go with fairies as couriers and yukkuris as a more expensive alternative. Yukkuris will teleport while fairies can fly.
Reimu and Marisa, being the two long-standing protagonists, will get an alternate skillset for no reason other than fun.
Other characters that I have designs written for: Reimu, Marisa, Rumia, Sakuya, Flandre, Remilia, Youmu.
Characters that I have ideas about, but have yet to finish writing: Patchouli, Alice, Yukari, Cirno, Letty, Yuyuko.
Characters that I have no ideas about: Koakuma, Chen, Ran.
Characters that have ideas submitted: Meiling, Lily White, Lyrica, Merlin and Lunasa Prismriver.
These are still open to modification. Feel free to submit suggestions for any character, but do recognize that it may not make it into the map in the form that you suggested. I'll need to see how it fits in with the rest of the characters, tweak the stats accordingly, and might even have to cannibalize some skills that might better suit some other character or just drop a skill or two that already duplicates someone else's skill. I'm also hoping to design the characters to be more true to their canon-self. Sometimes fanon traits and memes get taken way too far and we end up with silly things like the whole Suwako and "2" meme (even worse than Cirno's 9-ball meme) -.-;;
Beyond these, feel free to also suggest ideas for items. I'm looking at the old THMoon's items in the meantime - some of them seem like they belong naturally in a Touhou DotA-like game.
Resources
Points, power and faith are still in the map. No changes there, except I'd like to do more with the faith system - it's one of the things that sets the map apart from DotA and I think it has potential for depth. Generally, faith-required abilities should be activated from the shrine (not sure whether to keep tower heals) and should have strategic uses for team battles. Ideally, to win later team-fights, teams should not just have better items, but better use of the shrine's abilities. Currently there's only one - weather cancellation.
Terrain
I'm putting back the boat, secret shop and returning the weather stone to the jungle (near the old giant shanghai doll spot).
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DotS API
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(Aways a work in progress, though most of the usual functions are described in it already)
Edit: Will update the API later. Much (MUCH) has changed since the last update, most notably additional features for the projectile and high frequency single spell timer functions as well as the timed and special effects functions (you can now set yaw and pitch for the effects, and move them)
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Interesting reboot. I would really like to see a fork to DotA 2's iteration of the Source Engine (maybe via SourceMod plugins, full-source mods, etc.), personally, but we can save that for when the internal details are better documented (so far it's just Steam Workshop business IIRC).
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If and when Valve releases DotA 2's SDK, I'm more than willing to jump ship to Hammer. But that would mean either leaving this rebooted map behind, or leaving the original team behind - we're making a standalone DotS using UDK, but that's a very long-term project (already started though). Meanwhile, I think a less laggy and/or more DotA-ish map would do everyone some good...
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Yeah....Valve has yet to release SDK , there is little documentation in the official Valve Dev Community wiki on the DotA 2 engine (and what little I did find pertained to workshop item guidelines), and neither MetaMod:Source nor SourceMod support it (thus we don't have plugins yet). Most I've seen was DotA 2 models being ported to TF2 and Gmod.
UDK-based standalone sounds quite interesting, and is a great choice for its documentation and use of UnrealScript.
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It will be an honor to help you in any way possible, Aph.
And that you are phantasmic. That is all. o7.
Edit: SiG, you're making the entire PH community swoon over you. I'll need a little help here containing them. Please and thank you \o/
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Putting enough pressure on him YJ?
That said, to those who are dota, LoL, HoN and of course dots inclined, feel free to post what you feel would be a good idea for a hero. We're trying to keep things within Touhou areas. An example of a hero I made, Meiling has Attack Sign "Roc Fist", which is a counter attack-style skill. The spellcard has a sort of relation with the skill itself.
That said, with some lesser known girls, Koakuma up there is an example, feel free to get creative. You can put in whatever numbers you want, balance will be done later, just don't make the skills super dumb.
Aph always gets the final word on everything, keep that in mind.
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Dibs on Tewi and Eirin designs.
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Dibs on Tewi and Eirin designs.
Dibs on Renko, Mokou and Yuugi
Raythalos: Dibs on Alicewaifu
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Erm I've already got Mokou done. Actually she's the first girl that was completed since I basically ported her over from my other map.
Possessed by Phoenix - immolates the target and shares its vision with Mokou for 5 seconds. Does damage over time to the target.
Fujiyama Volcano - creates a red glyph on the targeted ground that explodes after a delay, damaging enemies in its AoE, knocking them back away from the centre of the glyph. Alternatively, casting it on herself imbues her next attack with the knockback.
Exalted Personage "Forewarning of St Germain" - Short range blink + AoE damage after 2.5/2/1.5/1 second of channeling. Telegraphed by the same red glyph on the ground as Fujiyama Volcano's.
Phoenix Rebirth - Resurrection after 5/4/3 seconds. 2nd level of the skill brings her back with +75 movespeed for 20s. 3rd level of the skill further adds +50% attack speed for that 20s. Cooldown of roughly 2 min.
Let's hear it for the others though. Heh.
I've started to fill in the items tonight. To preserve familiarity, I'll port over most of the basic ones from the original map, re-creating them within the new item system. For low/mid tier items though, here're some examples:
Shichiseiken (Miko's sword) adds int/mp regen (values not yet decided) and charm a creep (for 2 minutes, cooldown of 25s).
Hourai Jade Branch adds all attributes (something like +5) and pings hero locations on the minimap (does not reveal them, cooldown of 45s). The branch will build into something else naturally, but will lose the location ping ability after that.
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Maphax on a stick :V
Message you the character ideas or post them here?
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Go ahead and post 'em here. :)
Hmm pinging once shouldn't be too maphaxxy. Lol. It should have some strategic use in the early/mid-game.
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A sane version of DotS? Thank god D:
On characters:
Koakuma is Patch's familiar and her only known personality trait is being mischievous, so she should probably be a support that uses debuffs. Uses silence maybe?
Chen is fine as an AGI carry really, but I don't care what she does as long as she rolls :V But actually, I almost want to see Chen folded back into Ran as a double-character because that was neat.
Whatever Ran does, she should have a complicated, versatile play style.
Oh, and will this be 4v4 or 5v5?
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It will be 5v5 if I recall correctly. 80% sure.
I admit, I don't have a lot of ideas for Koa, Chen-chan, and Ran. If I could make them for Aph, I would. But I imagine Ran would a disruptor, sowing chaos on the battlefield rather affecting stats and having disables. For a dota example, glimpse is a very good disrupting skill.
Of course I'm not clever so I can't imagine what kind of skills those would be :V
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Ah it's 5v5 and can even be converted to 6v6 at will. The benefits of using a tavern hero selection system and scaleable game systems. Heh. In fact there's an alternate hero siege game mode in the game right now that I use to test the creep upgrade system - it places all 10 players on Hakurei's side, defending against neverending waves of stronger and stronger creeps from Moriya, at least until Moriya's shrine is destroyed.
Trance had an idea for Koakuma that nicely synergized with Patchouli's potential nukes, based on err.. was it the skydragon mage in DotA? It's the hero with Ancient Seal. I think Trance would have a better design for her with his extensive DotA experience than what I can come up with from canon sources since I rely heavily on them to design skills.
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Perhaps, as a much later addition, you could add different versions of a character, each focused around a different aspect of their ability's. For instance, Yukari could have one skill set focused around her gaps like she is in vanilla DOTS (or at least pre remake Yukari), and another focused around the more subtle aspects of her power, like making an ability based off her "Balance of Motion and Stillness" spellcard, which would average the ms of everyone within an area and set all their ms' to aforementioned average, or something along those lines. Basically, my whole point here is that I personally felt DOTS left out a large aspect of a lot of the characters personality and ability's in their character designs, this could potentially be a workaround.
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If Ran and Chen should be on one hero, then an int Syllabear sort of setup might work.
Tewi: Str or Agi
Skill1 - Alchemist's stun potion current or old version is fine.
Skill2 - Alchemist's Goblin Greed passive.
Skill3 - Single target buff/debuff gives crit chance to allies and miss chance to enemies.
Ult - Passive hp and regen boost.
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Orz I'll have to do DotA research to figure some stuff out it seems. Time to brave the sea of ragepubs in DotA 2 one of these days.
Tewi looks more like an agi hero. Definitely agi.
Not enough luck in that design. Wouldn't it be hilarious if the ult gave a random percentage of max hp boost on learning... :V </troll>
It looks like it could work and is easy enough to make, although the chance to miss debuff on her 3rd skill looks like something that belongs to Reisen instead.
@blabla1994 One of the goals of reworking certain characters is to bring their canon traits out better. There's nothing to say that Yukari can't have a gap-focused skillset to the exclusion of some boundary-wrecking theme after all. 4 skills is plenty if the skills are properly designed.
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Speaking of the Dota2 and SDK etc, Valve has never replied to my e-mail when I asked if such opportunities were possible in the near future.
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err is that mokou remake for this map or she was remaked at latest version? While i think her skillset is good now, some might hate it (some prefer lame harass with dive+egg heal and kick someone's *** at midgame with ggDPS)
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@Helepolis That's expected. Valve doesn't answer many of fan requests directly even if they do read them. That said, even if they don't release the SDK for DotA2, there'll still be the UDK standalone DotS version although that's a long way away. We won't have access to the Source engine and all its Havok Physics, but really I think that's only relevant if you want to see more realistic skirts and *ahem* movement. There are full-blown physics engines coded for WC3 too, but I've never seen the need to implement any of those in a game like DotA/DotS.
@AkurouNyan~ It's for this map - in the 2nd iteration, where the IN cast should be added. I've actually forgotten why I wanted to remake Mokou. I did this remake a long, long time ago. Like, when I first started learning JASS. That long ago.
Time to start work on the thing again. Gonna test out an alternative set of systems for the map that I was told could be more efficient and improve fps by over 10% during team battles.
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hmm i have some questions atm (please don't kill me =D)
-I'm fine with some remake for some girls (i.e koakuma and sakuya) but i think some heroes do pretty much match their canon-self (and well-designed) like yuyuko and letty. Did they didn't let you copy-paste the girl's stats and skills? Boy i'm feeling like a cirno...
-Err is it okay to return the boat? I personally missed the boat too but the fact its removed maybe because some people abused it quite much, in a bad way i think...
-About the new items that going to implemented in this map, i think some cheap items works well rather those 4k+ price (as we have quite many expensive items atm) but no ideas for now (also gonna make use of those cucumbers, aw no one even bought em at 977) i.e in dota you have something like janggo, forcestaff, medallion, arcane boots with easy buildups to promote more fast-paced gameplay.
-Can i peek at the submitted ideas? :3
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How did I not notice that you had a thread for this until now?
And you have a stash (notice that the shop was selected even though Reimu is nowhere near it)
Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssss.
Also, I'm more than willing to help if you want it, though I have no idea what I would offer other than random ideas and balance discussion.
Also, totally need to call dibs on Momiji, Mystia and Ran. Do you want Chen to be a separate hero or don't really care?
Alternatively, Ran and Chen clearly need to be wild axes for Yukari.
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-Can i peek at the submitted ideas? :3
Every single submitted idea so far is yours truly, I'll post them in a while.
Remember, these are not in stone and may not even go in and may not even be balanced necessarily, and they are ever so slightly different from Aph's version since while sending them to Aph, I modified a few skills slightly. The important idea is skill ideas, not balancing right now.
Meiling(Tank Initator)
Murasa(Jungler ganker/roamer)
Meiling will stay in her position as an initiator, but she works a little different now, with a chi system, and she isn't supposed to be fiercely attacked like in old dots, but rather quick reflexes will get her in the thick of things. Murasa has had the 2nd best mobility in the game for a while, due to her ult. That hasn't changed much, but with a skill that reduces damage and stuns, she now has potential as a straight up jungler and roamer. Also hook, because no one is taking that away from me. Numbers may have to be tweaked to make her a potential jungler of course..
Meiling-Str
Strength 23+2.8
Agility 19+2.0
Intelligence 14+1.6
Damage: 57-60
Armor: 4.3
Movement: 315
Attack Range: melee
Attack Animation: .25/.25
Cast Animation: 0/.8
Meiling can always charge at least 1 level of chi
Chi Sign "Star Bullets"
Meiling passively gathers chi to use in one large blast,
each charge of chi deals 65 damage and takes 5 seconds to charge.
Cooldown: 5
Mana cost: 50/60/70/80
Cast range: 500
Missile travel distance: 500/700/900/1100/1300
Missile speed: 450/400/350/300/250
Missile AoE: 100/150/200/250/300
Level 1: Max charge of 2
Level 2: Max charge of 3
Level 3: Max charge of 4
Level 4: Max charge of 5
Colorful Sign "Colorful Windchime"
Meiling can use use a charge of chi to create a whirlpool
around herself, causing enemies to gravitate to her. Should
they be caught within striking distance, they are stunned for 1 second and take damage.
Channeling.
lasts 3 seconds
Area of Effect: 500
Centered on Meiling
Gravity: ???(I have no idea how gravity works, shouldn't be too strong a gravity effect)
Uses 1 charge of chi
Mana cost: 120
Cooldown: 10 seconds
Level 1: 100 damage
Level 2: 150 damage
Level 3: 200 damage
Level 4: 250 damage
Attack Sign "Roc Fist"
Meiling sets up a counterattack stance using chi.
Should Meiling recieve an instance of damage while in this state,
she will negate the damage, and run up to the enemy and strike them
for damage and stun.
Should Meiling not be attacked during the duration, she is refunded her chi.
Duration: 4 seconds
Mana cost: 50
Cooldown: 19/16/13/10
Unit is knocked up(stun+.52 airtime)
Uses 1 charge of chi if successful
Level 1: 100 damage and 1.52 second stun
Level 2: 150 damage and 2.02 second stun
Level 3: 200 damage and 2.52 second stun
Level 4: 250 damage and 3.02 second stun
*Meiling is invincible while running to the person who struck her. She will also be moving at like 900 units a second
(I copy pasted this skill and added a few touches. It's too damn good to just leave out!)
Three Blasts "Colourful Ultimate Mountain Breaker"
Performs a three-strike rainbow attack in an area. First strike slows enemy by 50% for 4 seconds,
second strike stuns for 1 second and the third strike immobilizes the enemy for 1.5 seconds.
Each strike does different damage, and uses 1 chi charge for each attack. If Meiling does
not have enough charges for the entire skill, the cooldown will be reduced by 2/3 after the
first strike and 1/3 after the second strike.
Area of Effect: 525
Mana cost: 100/175/250MP
Cooldown: 150/120/90s
Level 1: Deals 60 magic damage on the first strike, 100 on the second and 150 on the final.
Level 2: Deals 80 magic damage on the first strike, 140 on the second and 200 on the final.
Level 3: Deals 100 magic damage on the first strike, 180 on the second and 250 on the final.
Murasa
Strength 27+2.4
Agility 17+1.8
Intelligence 19+1.8
Damage: 59-65
Armor: 3.3
Movement: 305
Attack Range: melee
Attack Animation: .25/.35
Cast Animation: 0.4/.3
Capsize "Dragging Anchor"(Yeah.. Pudge hook.)
Murasa throws her anchor in a straight line, grabbing onto the first unit it makes
contact with and dragging her to Murasa.
Mana cost: 120
Cooldown: 13
Pure Damage
Level 1: 90 damage 650 range
Level 2: 180 damage 800 range
Level 3: 270 damage 950 range
Level 4: 360 damage 1100 range
"Deep Sinker"
Murasa slams down her anchor, than swings it back up, damaging and stunning for
.75 seconds.
Self buff
AoE: 200(centered on attacked unit)
Mana cost: 60
Cooldown 15/14/13/12
Duration: Until next autoattack
Level 1: 75 damage
Level 2: 100 damage
Level 3: 125 damage
Level 4: 150 damage
*It strikes twice, and after a second delay of slamming down the anchor, she stuns again as she pulls it up
Flood "Venus of the Bilge"
Murasa splashes water everywhere, waterlogging enemies. Enemy girls get reduced attack damage,
and creeps get reduced armor in addition and lasts twice as long.
AoE: 300(centered on Murasa)
Mana cost: 75
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Duration: 6/6/7/7 seconds(12/12/14/14 on creeps)
Level 1: -15 attack, -2 armor
Level 2: -20 attack, -3 armor
Level 3: -25 attack, -3 armor
Level 4: -30 attack, -4 armor
Harbor Sign "Phantom Ship Harbor"
Murasa summons the boat she crashed on, allowing her to captain it. Ship has max movement when ridden
and can traverse all terrain, but Murasa can not leave the ship without crashing it. Should the boat
sink not by Murasa crashing, Murasa will be greatly slowed. Should the boat sink in the water, Murasa
will be stuck. Crashing does 400 damage, and Murasa will not be slowed should she choose to crash.
Channeling: 1second
Mana cost: 125
Cooldown: 60/45/30
Duration: 15/20/25
Level 1: Summons a ship with 500hp, 3 armor, and cannot move nor crash unless there is a captain.(0ms)
Level 2: Summons a ship with 600hp, 4 armor, and can move on it's own, but cannot crash on its own.(200ms)
Level 3: Summons a ship with 700hp, 5 armor, and can become ethereal for 6 seconds.
Harbor Sign "Ghost of Shipwreck"
Makes Murasa's ship etheareal for 6 seconds. 30 second cooldown.
Lily White
Lily white has been somewhat re-worked as of this post, one of her skills is gone, her ulti is now a regular skill, and her old ulti is now her current ulti. I think her 2nd skill was replaced
Strength 18+1.7
Agility 20+2.0
Intelligence 23+2.6
Damage: 42-57
Armor: 2.3
Movement: 305
Attack Range: 450
Attack Animation: .6/.2
Cast Animation: .2/.2.5
*Name pending*
Throws spring around, causing enemies to be temporarily blinded for 3 seconds
Sight range becomes 500 and have 60% chance to miss all physical attacks.
Mana cost: 80/105/130/155
450 range centered on Lily
Level 1: Cooldown 28 seconds.
Level 2: Cooldown 22 seconds.
Level 3: Cooldown 16 seconds.
Level 4: Cooldown 10 seconds.
*Name pending*
Lays down spring petals on the floor at an area, causing enemies to go slower
the more they walk on the petals. Slow is removed once they go off the petals.
Lasts 7 seconds, maximum 90% movement speed reduction.
600 casting range, 400 AoE
Mana cost: 150
Level 1: 10% slow per 100 units
Level 2: 15% slow per 100 units
Level 3: 20% slow per 100 units
Level 4: 25% slow per 100 units
*Name pending*
Covers an ally with spring, slowing them by 10%, but granting them a shield
that absorbs damage. The spring does damage to those next to the shield as well.
Should the shield be broken, the slow and damage is removed.
650 casting range, single target.
Cooldown: 20 seconds
Level 1: 100hp shield, 20 damage per second. 100 mana
Level 2: 150hp shield, 30 damage per second. 115 mana
Level 3: 200hp shield, 40 damage per second. 130 mana
Level 4: 250hp shield, 50 damage per second. 145 mana
*Name pending*
A tornado of spring is summoned with Lily in the center, enemies take damage
for the longer they are in the tornado, and cannot leave the tornado immediately.
The tornado persists for 2 seconds if Lily is interrupted.
Channeling
600 range centered on Lily
Lasts 10 seconds
Mana: 150/250/350
Level 1: 5 damage every .1 seconds, enemies cannot leave the tornado for 1.5 seconds after cast.
Level 2: 8.5 damage every .1 seconds, enemies cannot leave the tornado for 2 seconds after cast.
Level 3: 12 damage every .1 seconds, enemies cannot leave the tornado for 2.5 seconds after cast.
Lunasa-Offensive Support(Slows, disables, no stuns)
Merlin-Defensive Support(Buffs, one farm)
Lyrica-Shotgun/burst(Yes, her mana pool and skill costs are supposed to be like what they are)
Technically speaking, each prismriver only has 2 spellcards, as a result the spells they have is based more on their personality and abilities rather their spellcards. Lyrica is one I almost entirely made up due to her being a middle ground between the sisters. But you know, at least her keyboard doesn't heal anyone now. I also wonder how many people will hate the girls' third skill.
Lunasa-int
Strength 16+1.5
Agility 24+1.9
Intelligence 21+2.6
Damage: 40-48
Armor: 2.3
Movement: 305
Attack Range: 600
Attack Animation: .27/.6
Cast Animation: .1/.8
*Name pending*
Lunasa plays a sharp chord on her violin, causing damage all
enemy units within a 500 range. All enemies that are hit
with this get a debuff that reduces damage for 3 seconds.
Deal more damage and reduce more damage the closer the enemy
is to you.
Centered on Lunasa
Cooldown 12 seconds
Manacost: 125
Level 1: 40 damage at max range, 75 damage at 100 range.
Damage reduced by 5% max range, damage reduced by 10% at 100 range.
Level 2: 80 damage at max range, 150 damage at 100 range.
Damage reduced by 7.5% max range, damage reduced by 15% at 100 range.
Level 3: 120 damage at max range, 225 damage at 100 range.
Damage reduced by 10% max range, damage reduced by 20% at 100 range.
Level 4: 160 damage at max range, 300 damage at 100 range.
Damage reduced by 12.5% max range, damage reduced by 25% at 100 range.
*Name pending*
Lunasa plays a depressing melody, targetted at an enemy girl.
The more lunasa plays, the more the enemy girl feels depressed.
Deals damage per second and slows the enemy girl. If the enemy
girl goes too far away, Lunasa stops playing, but does not stop otherwise.
Channeling
Targeted enemy
Cast Range: 600
Cast break: 1500(Keeps going in fog of war)
Cooldown: 50 seconds
Mana cost: 100/125/150/200
Level 1: Slows by 25% and deals 10 damage per second
Level 2: Slows by 25% and deals 15 damage per second
Level 3: Slows by 25% and deals 20 damage per second
Level 4: Slows by 25% and deals 30 damage per second
*Name pending*
Lunasa is a poltergeist, and can become incorporeal when she pleases
or make an enemy incorporeal for a short duration.
Turn on autocast to make yourself ethereal.
Targeted enemy
Initial Mana cost on enemy: 100
Initial mana cost if cast on self: 20% max mana
Mana per second(if cast on self)cost: 3% max mana
Cooldown: 12 seconds
Cast range: 550
Level 1: Enemy is Ethereal for 1.5 seconds
Level 2: Enemy is Ethereal for 2.0 seconds
Level 3: Enemy is Ethereal for 2.5 seconds
Level 4: Enemy is Ethereal for 3.0 seconds
(Enemy is 40% slowed, as is Lunasa)
*Name Pending*
Lunasa is a depressing Poltergeist to be around, and her enemies
are depressed as a result. Being too near Lunasa makes the enemies
less enthusiastic about fighting.
Passive
AoE: 800
Level 1: Slows enemy movement/attack speed by 4%, reduces armor by 2, reduces magic resist by 5%, -2hp/mp regen
Level 2: Slows enemy movement/attack speed by 8%, reduces armor by 4, reduces magic resist by 10%, -3hp/mp regen
Level 3: Slows enemy movement/attack speed by 12%, reduces armor by 6, reduces magic resist by 15%, -4hp/mp regen
Merlin-Strength
Strength 21+2.6
Agility 16+1.5
Intelligence 24+1.9
Damage: 49-53
Armor: .34
Movement: 295
Attack Range: 400
Attack Animation: .4/.64
Cast Animation: .25/.6
*Name Pending*
Merlin plays a tune to excite an ally, however that person must attack
or else she will get too excited and overwhelm herself, losing control
and attacking anything in the area until the end of the duration.
Targeted ally
Mana cost: 120
Cast range: 300
Cooldown: 30/25/20/15
Duration: 11 seconds
Level 1: +20 attack, +5% movement speed, must hit something every 5 seconds.
Level 2: +30 attack, +10% movement speed, must hit something every 4 seconds.
Level 3: +40 attack, +15% movement speed, must hit something every 3 seconds.
Level 4: +50 attack, +20% movement speed, must hit something every 2 seconds.
(I know this one is probably very very hard to do, so if necessary, make them lose control
after 5/6/7/8 seconds and make the duration 8/9/10/11 seconds instead of going crazy after not attacking)
*Name Pending*
Merlin makes all her allies excited and ready to fight, increasing many abilities slightly.
Passive
AoE: 1000
Level 1: +.5hp regen, +.5mp regen, +1 armor, +3 attack, +2% movement speed
Level 2: +1hp regen, +1mp regen, +2 armor, +6 attack, +3% movement speed
Level 3: +1.5hp regen, +1.5mp regen, +3 armor, +9 attack, +4% movement speed
Level 4: +2hp regen, +2mp regen, +3 armor, +12 attack, +5% movement speed
*Name pending*
Merlin is a poltergeist, and can become incorporeal when she pleases, but can
also enchant allies to become ethereal as well.
Targeted ally
Turn on autocast to make yourself ethereal
Initial Mana cost on enemy: 100
Initial mana cost if cast on self: 20% max mana
Mana per second(if cast on self)cost: 3% max mana
Cooldown: 12 seconds
Cast range: 550
Level 1: Ally is Ethereal for 1 seconds
Level 2: Ally is Ethereal for 2 seconds
Level 3: Ally is Ethereal for 3 seconds
Level 4: Ally is Ethereal for 4 seconds
(no movement speed loss on herself, or ally)
*Name pending*
Merlin channels for 5 seconds, and then lets out an unbelievably loud trumpet noise,
enchanting every visible enemy hero and creep, making them attack any unit closest to themselves.
If there is no enemies within sight range, the enemy will stand still.
40 Gold is given to Merlin should an enemy creep die under this effect, and 125 gold should an enemy girl die.
Global
Lasts twice as long on creeps.
Enemies will not attack towers.
Channeling
A global sound effect is made while channeling(Possibly wind blowing followed by blaaart)
Cooldown: 160/140/120
Level 1: Lasts 3 seconds
Level 2: Lasts 4 seconds
Level 3: Lasts 5 seconds
(Remember.. Every VISIBLE unit)
Lyrica-Agi
Strength 24+1.9
Agility 21+2.6
Intelligence 16+1.5
Damage: 44-51
Armor: 4
Movement: 300
Attack Range: 500
Attack Animation: .15/.9
Cast Animation: .51/.55
*Name pending*
Lyrica plays a flurry of notes on hey keyboard, which ends in a crescendo,
dealing bits of damage with one large burst.
Not channeling
Target Ground
Cast range: 700
Mana cost: 140
Cooldown: 14
AoE: 200
Level 1: Deals 2 damage per .2 seconds for 2 seconds, then deals 100 damage.
Level 2: Deals 4 damage per .2 seconds for 2 seconds, then deals 150 damage.
Level 3: Deals 6 damage per .2 seconds for 2 seconds, then deals 200 damage.
Level 4: Deals 8 damage per .2 seconds for 2 seconds, then deals 250 damage.
*Name Pending*
Lyrica slams down on her keyboard, which is directed at someone. Deals damage to that target
and everyone in between Lyrica and the target. Lyrica can also target the ground,
dealing base damage to the first target and dealing 20% less damage for each unit hit.
Targeted and target ground.
Cast range: 600
Distance travelled: 600
Mana cost: 100/120/140/160
Cooldown: 20/15/10/5
AoE: 100
Missile speed: 1400units per second
Level 1: Deals 100 damage
Level 2: Deals 170 damage
Level 3: Deals 240 damage
Level 4: Deals 310 damage
*Name pending*
Lyrica is a poltergeist, and can make herself and an enemy incorporeal
for a few seconds.
Targeted enemy
Cast range: 800
Mana cost: 100
Cooldown: 10 seconds
Level 1: 2 seconds
Level 2: 2.5 seconds
Level 3: 3 seconds
Level 4: 3.5 seconds
(Both Lyrica and the enemy unit are turned ethereal with 40% slow when cast)
*Name pending*
Lyrica plays a beautiful melody with an awful finish, causing an enemy girls spirit
to be split usunder.
For each buff and debuff on an enemy hero, this skill deals more damage and
removes all buffs and debuffs from the enemy girl.
Targeted
Cast range: 400/500/600
Mana cost: 150/175/200
Cooldown: 70/60/50
Level 1: Deals minimum 200 damage, deals 50 damage for each buff/debuff, max 10
Level 2: Deals minimum 300 damage, deals 75 damage for each buff/debuff, max 10
Level 3: Deals minimum 400 damage, deals 100 damage for each buff/debuff, max 10
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hi
Koakuma [INT]
skill 1 - Skywrath Mage's Ancient Seal but tweaked numbers
skill 2 - Crystal Maiden's Crystal Nova
skill 3 - KOTL Chakra Magic
ulti - Not entirely sure on this. I was thinking a magic resistance version of Amplify Damage (Slardar)
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hmm i have some questions atm (please don't kill me =D)
-I'm fine with some remake for some girls (i.e koakuma and sakuya) but i think some heroes do pretty much match their canon-self (and well-designed) like yuyuko and letty. Did they didn't let you copy-paste the girl's stats and skills? Boy i'm feeling like a cirno...
-Err is it okay to return the boat? I personally missed the boat too but the fact its removed maybe because some people abused it quite much, in a bad way i think...
-About the new items that going to implemented in this map, i think some cheap items works well rather those 4k+ price (as we have quite many expensive items atm) but no ideas for now (also gonna make use of those cucumbers, aw no one even bought em at 977) i.e in dota you have something like janggo, forcestaff, medallion, arcane boots with easy buildups to promote more fast-paced gameplay.
-Can i peek at the submitted ideas? :3
Letty probably won't be changed much if at all. Yuyuko too - the major change is going to be a bugfix on her temp resurrection skill, and the delay on her D skill being cast if I haven't changed that for the 985 map (it used to be affected by lag, don't know if it still is). Not all heros are going to get reworked of course. I don't expect all heros to play radically different. In fact the earlier heros probably won't have much changes to their mechanics because they tend to be better designed, even though the scaling damage and weird numbers make them play a bit silly in the later versions.
What abuses were there with the boat? It was actually removed due to the yukkuri creep camp - the landing spot on the right is directly in front of the camp and will have to be changed.
The 2 items up there are supposed to be examples of low/mid-tier items that are easy to build up to, with possibilities of building off from there. Miko's Sword is intended for fast-push strats and the Jade Branch should be a useful strategic item on the way to something else. Yeah I'll look into changing the mid-tier items into something more worthwhile, well, at least have more viable mid-tier items than that stopwatch.
Ahh I see Dular has saved me the trouble of organizing the submissions into a single post. It's a royal pain to do that on a tablet :P
Dormio: No preferences on Chen/Ran being separate heros or Chen being a summon. I'll probably draw the line before Yukari summoning Ran summoning Chen. Heh. It seems like Chen should still remain an agility carry while Yukari the master troll (we probably should give her a waygate-type ability, gap powers and all)
Trance: Thanks for the suggestion. I had a look up on those skills mentioned and might end up changing the nova skill's ancillary effect from a frost/slow to something else to avoid having a skill that's exactly the same as one of Cirno's.
Update: Buff/status system done. A screenshot showing the buff/status display is in the original post now.
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Ahh, good to know, one of the big things that kept me from getting into DOTS at all was the fact that a lot of the characters skills were just surface explorations of their ability's. Really turned me off to the game as one of the big things that got me interested in Touhou was the wide variety of interesting ability's the characters have, along with the surprising amount of depth and thought put into them for a simple shooting game.
Yukari: Gap's basically, and a barrier skill (which they later removed. >_<)
Sakuya: Knives mainly, slight nod to her time ability's in two of her skills.
Reimu: Barriers and Danmaku, not even a nod to her intuition or "floating", it would have been cool too be able to use Reimu's intuition to like get a idea of where the enemy characters where periodically or something along those lines.
I could go on for a while, I've been seething about this silently for quite some time.
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Random thoughts on Ran/Chen I had whilst falling asleep on the train.
Of course, the numbers can be messed with, since I have no point of reference for the
Ran Yakumo (Summon Type)
Strength: Whatever is enough to start her off at ~450 max HP. +1.5 str per level?
Agility: 14+1.5
Intelligence: 20+3.0
Movement speed: 300?
Damage: 35-40
BAT: x
Animation startup: x
Backswing: x
Attack Range: 450
Summon Chen (D) - 200 Mana cost. 100s cd.
Summons Chen(melee). Chen can also carry items. :V
Level 1: Chen has x HP, x armour, x-x damage, x attack speed, x movement speed. Cannot attack if Ran is not within 1500 range. Ran loses 25% of her maxHP if Chen dies.
Level 2: Chen has x HP, x armour, x-x damage, x attack speed, x movement speed. Cannot attack if Ran is not within 1500 range. Gains access to the recall ability, which will port Chen back to Ran after x seconds of channelling. No cooldown. Ran loses 25% of her maxHP if Chen dies.
Level 3: Chen has x HP, x armour, x-x damage, x attack speed, x movement speed. Cannot attack if Ran is not within 1500 range. Gains access to the roll ability, which is a short (450 range?) dash ability. 7 second cooldown. Ran loses 25% of her maxHP if Chen dies.
Level 4: Chen has x HP, x armour, x-x damage, x attack speed, x movement speed. Cannot attack if Ran is not within 1500 range. Gains access to the _____ ability, which allows Chen to gain attack speed for every successive attack on the same target. Loses all bonus attack speed if Chen changes targets. Ran loses 25% of her maxHP if Chen dies.
Shikigami Link (I'll think of a better name later) (F)
Provides bonuses for Ran and Chen based on proximity to Ran. Ran always receives half of the benefits. Chen receives benefits at 1000 (HP)/600 (Movement Speed)/200 (Damage) range.
Level 1: Provides 100 maxHP, 4% movement speed, 15 damage.
Level 2: Provides 200 maxHP, 8% movement speed, 30 damage.
Level 3: Provides 300 maxHP, 12% movement speed, 45 damage.
Level 4: Provides 400 maxHP, 16% movement speed, 60 damage.
Shikigami "Banquet of 12 General Gods" (R) - 70/90/110/130 cost. 13s cd.
Damage, slow, and stun. Woo. (Totally not overpowered) About .2 seconds between each hit?
Level 1: Summons three units that will attack the target once, dealing 20 magical damage each. The third unit will apply a 30% slow for 1.5 seconds.
Level 2: Summons six units that will attack the target once, dealing 20 magical damage each. The third unit will apply a 30% slow for 1.5 seconds.
Level 3: Summons nine units that will attack the target once, dealing 20 magical damage each. The third unit will apply a 30% slow for 1.5 seconds.
Level 4: Summons twelve units that will attack the target once, dealing 20 magical damage each. The third unit will apply a 30% slow for 1.5 seconds.The tenth unit will apply a 1.5 second stun.
Shikigami "Dakini's Heavenly Possession" (W) - ??? cost. 180/150/120s cd.
Ran channels for two seconds before disappearing. During this time, Chen will be buffed. Chen will receive Ran's auras as though Ran were standing on top of her. Chen will emit Ran's auras from items. Ran will die if Chen dies. Cannot be cast if Chen is not alive.
Level 1: Lasts for 10 seconds. Chen gains a bonus 5 armor and 15% chance for a 1.25x critical strike.
Level 2: Lasts for 20 seconds. Chen gains a bonus 10 armor and 15% chance for a 1.75x critical strike.
Level 3: Lasts for 30 seconds. Chen gains a bonus 15 armor and 15% chance for a 2.25x critical strike.
Ran Yakumo (Non-Summon Type)
Strength: Whatever is enough to start her off at ~500 max HP. +1.5 str per level?
Agility: 17+2.5
Intelligence: 16+2.5
Movement speed: 300?
Damage: 40-45
BAT: x
Animation startup: x
Backswing: x
Attack Range: 500
Shikigami "Banquet of 12 General Gods" (D) - 70/90/110/130 cost. 13s cd.
Damage and slow. Woo. About .2 seconds between each hit?
Level 1: Summons three units that will attack the target once, dealing 15 magical damage each. The third unit will apply a 30% slow for 1.5 seconds.
Level 2: Summons six units that will attack the target once, dealing 15 magical damage each. The third unit will apply a 30% slow for 2.0 seconds.
Level 3: Summons nine units that will attack the target once, dealing 15 magical damage each. The third unit will apply a 30% slow for 2.5 seconds.
Level 4: Summons twelve units that will attack the target once, dealing 15 magical damage each. The third unit will apply a 30% slow for 3.0 seconds.
(F)
Boring passive ability that varies depending on form.
Level 1: +5 damage for each unit in Shikigami "Banquet of 12 General Gods" for INT Ran, 15% chance for a 1.3x crit for AGI Ran.
Level 2: +10 damage for each unit in Shikigami "Banquet of 12 General Gods" for INT Ran, 15% chance for a 1.6x crit for AGI Ran.
Level 3: +15 damage for each unit in Shikigami "Banquet of 12 General Gods" for INT Ran, 15% chance for a 1.9x crit for AGI Ran.
Level 4: +20 damage for each unit in Shikigami "Banquet of 12 General Gods" for INT Ran, 15% chance for a 2.2x crit for AGI Ran
Shikigami "Protection of Zenki and Goki" (R) - ??? cost. 30s cd.
Summons Zenki and Goki, who will shield Ran from attacks as well as cause her to inflict status effects on autoattacks while they are around. The pair will disappear after 10 seconds or after blocking attacks.
Level 1: Zenki and Goki will block one attack each. Zenki will attack with Ran when she is in her intelligence form, dealing 5 damage and applying a 20% slow for 2 seconds. Goki will attack with Ran when she is in her agility form, dealing 20 damage and having a 10% chance to bash for 1 second.
Level 2: Zenki and Goki will block one attack each. Zenki will attack with Ran when she is in her intelligence form, dealing 10 damage and applying a 20% slow for 2 seconds. Goki will attack with Ran when she is in her agility form, dealing 30 damage and having a 15% chance to bash for 1 second.
Level 3: Zenki and Goki will block one attack each. Zenki will attack with Ran when she is in her intelligence form, dealing 15 damage and applying a 20% slow for 2 seconds. Goki will attack with Ran when she is in her agility form, dealing 40 damage and having a 20% chance to bash for 1 second.
Level 4: Zenki and Goki will block two attacks each. Zenki will attack with Ran when she is in her intelligence form, dealing 20 damage and applying a 20% slow for 2 seconds. Goki will attack with Ran when she is in her agility form, dealing 50 damage and having a 25% chance to bash for 1 second.
(W)
Channels for 1 second before switching Ran's main stat from Intelligence to Agility. Also changes her autoattacks to melee range. Can switch between the two forms.
Level 1: Ran gains 5 bonus Agility and Intelligence, bonus 150 maxHP when in AGI form.
Level 2: Ran gains 10 bonus Agility and Intelligence, bonus 300 maxHP when in AGI form.
Level 3: Ran gains 15 bonus Agility and Intelligence, bonus 450 maxHP when in AGI form.
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Ahh, good to know, one of the big things that kept me from getting into DOTS at all was the fact that a lot of the characters skills were just surface explorations of their ability's. Really turned me off to the game as one of the big things that got me interested in Touhou was the wide variety of interesting ability's the characters have, along with the surprising amount of depth and thought put into them for a simple shooting game.
Yukari: Gap's basically, and a barrier skill (which they later removed. >_<)
Sakuya: Knives mainly, slight nod to her time ability's in two of her skills.
Reimu: Barriers and Danmaku, not even a nod to her intuition or "floating", it would have been cool too be able to use Reimu's intuition to like get a idea of where the enemy characters where periodically or something along those lines.
I could go on for a while, I've been seething about this silently for quite some time.
Sakuya's new ult will be a chronosphere-like ability: Sakuya's World. Actually this part is already done. Just need to import the skill now. This should go well with her new misdirection spellcard (starts off as a blink, then later on a double-blink, then a double-blink with invis on the 2nd blink.)
For the rest, it's hard to make some of their abilities work in-game, e.g. Reimu's floating ability which is as abstract as Yukari's boundary-manipulation ability - she doesn't just fly (that's better suited to someone like Mystia or Aya really) but her real power lies in being able to manifest that sort of ability in the abstract sense, e.g. Fantasy Heaven. I do have her Fantasy Heaven spell made, the one that spams danmaku and causes massive damage while banishing her, but it's not for Reimu herself. I made it for a submission a long time ago, for a candidate for DotS' version of Roshan - the 8th Hakurei Shrine Maiden, essentially a boss fight where the reward would be a powerful item that either 1. reflects spells or 2. grants reincarnation (but not both).
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Reimu: Barriers and Danmaku, not even a nod to her intuition or "floating", it would have been cool too be able to use Reimu's intuition to like get a idea of where the enemy characters where periodically or something along those lines.
I am all for intuition and barriers, but floating? That's just her flying and everyone can do that, so it doesn't matter if that is implemented or not.
But yes, Having Reimu able to ping enemies would be kinda cool. Her ultimate should be Musou Tensei with temporary invincibility or something.
Reimu should have some weird warping powers too, like you see in some of her spell cards. But there are only 4 skills, so I have no ideas on warping.
So pretty much something like this:
skill 1(Donations, Please) - active/passive. Passive part lets her gain gold faster. Active lets her ping enemies on the map.
skill 2(Evil Sealing Circle) - active/passive. Gives her armor bonus, something low, like 1/2/3/4. Active part allows her to trap an enemy for several seconds. They cannot move and cast.
skill 3(Fantasy Seal) - damage spell.
skill 4(Musou Tensei, not sure what the translation for it is currently) - her ultimate. Temporary invincibility and does damage to all targets around her. Friendly fire.
I want to see Youmu's ultimate as a counter, Six Root Cleansing, but I don't know how that will work...
I also want to see Remilia as a melee character, instead of range. It does not make sense to me why Remilia is range.
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random idea to be used whenever you feel like. I realise pcb/eosd only right now, sue me.
Kurodani Yamame
Strength Hero
stat spread similar to undying; high base str/int and gain, low base agi and gain. Base int is lower than strength, but has a better gain
ranged
Small Thread, Kandata's Rope
Mana Cost: High-ish? Something like 150
Cast range: Medium. 500 sounds okay.
cooldown: 9 seconds seems okay
duration: 3.5/4/4.5/5 seconds-ish; long enough to be something to worry about.
What scales with level: duration, damage, number of linked units,
-Links a bunch of units around the target to the target with threads. as the bonded units move away from each other, a slow is applied that gets larger the farther they move away from the original target; if they move far away enough, the threads snap and deal damage to both units.
-Can be used on allies, will only link to enemies.
-Damage is something like 70/140/210/280,
-slow is...12% for every 100 units away from the original target? snap range is at 400
-links 2/3/4/5 units to the original target.
-Original target is slowed by the average amount all the linked units are slowed? I want the general feel that all the units are entangled together in a big web.
(THe idea is to keep everyone near the initial target, else he gets fucked up by repeated tether break damage. this gives yamame's allies enough time to use their aoes)
Poison Sign, Japanese Foliage Spider
Mana Cost: High. Stays at 200
Cast Range: High. Make it similar in aoe to old spiders...probably smaller, considering ult. A little larger than old net?
Cool Down: should be a pretty long duration between cast. 30s? 40s?
What scales with level: Duration, area, spiders
-Creates a persistent web in the area; anything in the web has a spider attached to it every few seconds that applies a slow poison, which also does minor damage. Spiders can be killed for gold. Think of a combination of Weaver's swarm and Undying's gravestone.
-lasts 7/10/13/16 seconds?
-spiders are applied upon first contact with web and every three seconds after
-AoE scales from a little less than old net to a little larger. 300/400/500/600 AoE, with 600 cast range from her to the center of the aoe
(can't be killed like undying gravestone, and the slow lasts even if you kill the spider attacking you because of it being a poison, but lasts about half as long.)
Trap Sign, Capture Web
Mana Cost: 50ish
Cast Range: 500
Cool Down: About 10 seconds
What scales with level: Number of traps.
-Places a web trap. If an enemy steps on the trap, an aoe entangle is applied to everything in a small aoe, probably 200. Has a delay before activating.
-1s duration on entangle
-2s delay before it becomes active and invis; I don't want it to be used as an easy chase tool
-traps are invis
-5/10/15/20 traps at any time
-when triggered, any other trap within 500 range is also triggered, mostly to prevent chain traps.
Spider, Cave Spider's Nest
Mana Cost: 125
Cast Range: N/A
Cool down: 60s, starts when she activates the transformation
Duration: 15/30/45
What scales with level: skill improvements, duration
-Turns Yamame from her new model to her old model. all her skills are improved upon or, really, outright replaced, and she gains one new spell
-Kandata's Rope now causes all units to take a small percentage of what other units on the web take, something like 5%/10%/15%
-Foliage Spider now starts off with a very small duration net, making it a combination of her old net and spiders; probably .5/.75/1s
-Capture Web's cooldown is halved.
-Gains Fillled Miasma
Miasma Sign, Filled Miasma
Mana Cost: 150
Cast Range: 400 to center of aoe, about 300 aoe
Cool Down: Can be used once before ult is over, two times with level three ult, so around 20 seconds
What scales with level: Damage, attack speed slow
-Applies a long lasting poison to everything within an aoe. Poison also slows attack speed.
-Around 25/50/70 magic damage dps? attack speed slow is around 20/40/60%
-lasts around 10 seconds at all level
-effectively a ranged poison nova with an attack speed slow, but smaller aoe and less damage
general game plan is to pop ult, cast Foliage Spiders on the enemy's area, then immediately use Kandata's rope and Filled Miasma. in the chaos, pick people off using traps. a coordinated team will all run the same direction and nullify your efforts, but if you coordinate with real stuns from allies or just attack them from a different direction from the rest of your team, this makes things complicated
to facilitate this, build tanky. if there are initiation items like blink dagger and force staff, get those. anticipate where team fights will happen and put traps on predicted escape routes. your main contribution is staying alive and reapplying skills as much as possible. if ice dress is still around, get that for epic lulz.
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Ahh, good to know, one of the big things that kept me from getting into DOTS at all was the fact that a lot of the characters skills were just surface explorations of their ability's. Really turned me off to the game as one of the big things that got me interested in Touhou was the wide variety of interesting ability's the characters have, along with the surprising amount of depth and thought put into them for a simple shooting game.
Yukari: Gap's basically, and a barrier skill (which they later removed. >_<)
Sakuya: Knives mainly, slight nod to her time ability's in two of her skills.
Reimu: Barriers and Danmaku, not even a nod to her intuition or "floating", it would have been cool too be able to use Reimu's intuition to like get a idea of where the enemy characters where periodically or something along those lines.
I could go on for a while, I've been seething about this silently for quite some time.
While yes, a lot of abilities are nods to their powers and what they are mainly known for(Sakuya mostly), you can only do so much with four skills max, and some characters have much more developed characters as compared to others.
For example, from the top of my head, Sakuya is known for having silver knives, being a chief maid, controlling time, and probably being a lunarian. Those are the things a typical fan would know, right? Can you think of anything else especially noteworthy? A spot check reveals the fact that her past isn't revealed and Sakuya isn't her name. That's pretty much everything.
Now, we are trying to develop a little spell card system here, which is skills based on a girls' spellcard. Some of the lesser known Touhous don't even have spellcards, so we pretty much make them up, and that's totally cool with lesser known touhous. I mean, look at Lily White and the Prismrivers up there. Now, if you saw a made up one on a more prominent figure, like say.. Seniority "Training the Fool" in reference to her Chief Maid status on Sakuya.. I think anyone would raise an eyebrow. And since ALL of Sakuya's spellcards involve Time travel and Knives, occasionally thrown in a different way. There isn't much else to her or her spellcards, so that's what she gets. Knives and nods to time manipulation.
It's a similar thing to Reimu, sure her power is flying and she has super intuition, but none of her spellcards do much in relation to those, they all involve her shrine maiden abilities, along with one martial arts spellcard and two "Go away Aya" spellcards, so she gets shrine maiden skills.
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It's really not like Reimu advertises her 'floating' ability as anything besides 'hey guys you could never actually beat me in a straight fight, play by my rules.'
As much as I complain about dots, the old hero designs were pretty faithful to portrayals. Patchy's philostone is a super mode in Soku and was an absurd orb in old dots. Like Dular said, Reimu was always centered around her miko abilities, not her 'floating' ability. Sakuya's was actually a pretty faithful rendition of her Hisoutensoku self.
and yeah, what Dular said. again. only so much you can do with four skills. Just look at the other source material. Oh Faceless Void is a unstoppable horror from beyond the ken of time...and he has glorified dash, evasion, bash, and his ult. If we tried to make them really good portrayals of the characters, it would need too many skills.
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Random thoughts on Cirno whilst walking to a lecture.
Again, no point of reference. Numbers can be changed to whatever.
Cirno
Strength: 24+2.2
Agility: 17+1.5
Intelligence: 9+9
Movement speed: 300?
Damage: 60-65
BAT: x
Animation startup: x
Backswing: x
Attack Range: Melee
(D) 20s cd.
Cirno deals pure damage to herself and her target, as well as slowing herself and all nearby enemies. Melee range. Cirno can kill herself with this ability.
Level 1: 120 damage to self, 100 damage to enemy. 20% slow on enemies, 10% slow on self.
Level 2: 200 damage to self, 180 damage to enemy. 25% slow on enemies, 15% slow on self.
Level 3: 280 damage to self, 260 damage to enemy. 30% slow on enemies, 20% slow on self.
Level 4: 360 damage to self, 340 damage to enemy. 35% slow on enemies, 25% slow on self.
(F)
Cirno emits an 900 range aura that reduces the total armor and magic resistance of all nearby enemies and allies.
Level 1: 20% reduction.
Level 2: 40% reduction.
Level 3: 60% reduction.
Level 4: 80% reduction.
(R) 24s cd.
Cirno spins with her ice sword, dealing magical damage all nearby allies and foes. Cirno gains magical immunity whilst spinning. Cirno will be stunned and damaged at the end of this ability. Cirno can kill herself by casting this ability.
Level 1: Spins for 5 seconds, 60 dps. Stunned for 2 seconds. Deals 60 damage to Cirno.
Level 2: Spins for 6 seconds, 80 dps. Stunned for 1.85 seconds. Deals 120 damage to Cirno.
Level 3: Spins for 7 seconds, 100 dps. Stunned for 1.7 seconds. Deals 180 damage to Cirno.
Level 4: Spins for 8 seconds, 120 dps. Stunned for 1.5 seconds. Deals 240 damage to Cirno.
I'm the strongest! (W)
The strongest needs the highest strength.
Level 1: +15 Strength
Level 2: +30 Strength
Level 3: +45 Strength
Alternate (W)
Omnislash which registers Cirno and her allies as valid targets. Higher STR base/growth to compensate for losing +STR ult. Cirno can kill herself with this ability. The ability ends if Cirno dies.
Level 1: 5 slashes that deal 120 magical damage each.
Level 2: 10 slashes that deal 160 magical damage each.
Level 3: 15 slashes that deal 200 magical damage each.
Cirno (Version 2.0)
Strength: 24+2.2
Agility: 17+1.5
Intelligence: 9+9
Movement speed: 300?
Damage: 60-65
BAT: x
Animation startup: x
Backswing: x
Attack Range: Melee
(D) 20s cd.
Cirno deals pure damage to herself and her target, as well as slowing herself and all nearby enemies. Melee range. Cirno can kill herself with this ability.
Level 1: 120 damage to self, 100 damage to enemy. 20% slow on enemies for 3 seconds, 10% slow on self for 5 seconds.
Level 2: 200 damage to self, 180 damage to enemy. 25% slow on enemies for 3 seconds, 15% slow on self for 5 seconds.
Level 3: 280 damage to self, 260 damage to enemy. 30% slow on enemies for 3 seconds, 20% slow on self for 5 seconds.
Level 4: 360 damage to self, 340 damage to enemy. 35% slow on enemies for 3 seconds, 25% slow on self for 5 seconds.
(F)
Cirno emits an 900 range aura that reduces the total armor and magic resistance of all nearby enemies.
Level 1: 15% reduction.
Level 2: 30% reduction.
Level 3: 45% reduction.
Level 4: 60% reduction.
(R)
Taunt that debuffs Cirno.
Level 1: Taunts for 1 seconds. Gives Cirno -5 armor. Cirno is stunned during the duration of the taunt. Cirno will take 50 damage at the end of the taunt.
Level 2: Taunts for 1.33 seconds. Gives Cirno -5 armor. Cirno is stunned during the duration of the taunt. Cirno will take 100 damage at the end of the taunt.
Level 3: Taunts for 1.66 seconds. Gives Cirno -5 armor. Cirno is stunned during the duration of the taunt. Cirno will take 150 damage at the end of the taunt.
Level 4: Taunts for 2 seconds. Gives Cirno -5 armor. Cirno is stunned during the duration of the taunt. Cirno will take 200 damage at the end of the taunt.
I'm the strongest! (W)
The strongest needs the highest strength.
Level 1: +15 Strength
Level 2: +30 Strength
Level 3: +45 Strength
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Koakuma
Role: Support / Nuker / Lane Support
I designed Koakuma with the tenets of hero-killing support in mind. Her skills all cater to assist nukers in some shape or form, with Pyroclasm killing any chances of clever split-second jukes from the enemy hero especially because it kills regeneration from items (both HP and mana). The utility of all her skills provide Koakuma with a reasonably flexible skill builds, I think.
Skills only for the meantime.
[1] Sweet Devil's Ignition
Ability: Target Unit
Affects: Enemies
With all the impishness of a little devil, Koakuma throws an accursed fireball at the enemy that amplifies all magical damage against them and temporarily prevents them from casting spells for a few seconds.
Skywrath Mage's Ancient Seal clone with retweaked values and a damage aspect
Damage: 100/150/200/250
Duration: 2/3/4/5s
Magical damage amplification: 15/22/29/36%
Cooldown: 13s
Manacost: 90/105/120/135
[2] Innocent Pyroclasm
Ability: Target Point
Affects: Enemies
Almost like an accident gone even more horribly wrong, Koakuma mucks up a bonfire spell creating a large pillar of demonic flame. Anyone caught in the blast is severely burned, taking some damage and being unable to recover from further damage for a short period of time. During the period in which they are burned, they also have reduced mana regeneration. The skill has a cast delay.
Use Flamestrike for this one, because the effect should also destroy trees
Range: 700
Cast Delay: 0.8s
Radius: 250 (?)
Demonic Burn duration: 7/8/9/10s
Demonic Burn mana regeneration: -10.0/-15.0/-20.0/-25.0 Similar to Pugna's Nether Ward
Damage: 100/175/250/325
Cooldown: 17s
Manacost: 125/150/175/200
Mana loss at levels -
LV1 - 70 per 17s = 4/s net loss
LV2 - 120 per 17s = 7/s net loss
LV3 - 180 per 17s = 10/s net loss
LV4 - 250 per 17s = 14/s net loss
[3] Fervor from the Temptress
Ability: Target Unit
Affects: Allies
Koakuma's charm and her interactions with Patchouli have given her the ability to... benefit her teammates with her feminine charms. Koakuma restores a portion of mana to a target ally with demonic, almost lustful fervor. Koakuma's life force is used for this endeavour, causing her to lose some health in the process. Koakuma can kill herself using the skill; and if she does so, the target she uses this skill on has their mana restored to full. Obviously, nothing happens if she uses it on herself while killing/denying herself
KotL Chakra Magic clone
Range: 950
Mana Restored: 90/180/270/350
Cooldown: 20/19/18/17s
Manacost: 45/60/75/90
HP cost: 75/75/100/100
[Ult] The Devil May Cry (On You)
Ability: Target Unit
Affects: Enemies
The culmination of her duties in the library and reading off-duty has allowed Koakuma the ability to sear through the essence of a person, reducing their magic resistance to a certain degree. Furthermore, they become visible to Koakuma and her allies, even if they are invisible.
Slardar's Amplify Damage but magical version
Range: 700
Duration: 25s
Magic resistance reduction: 16/19/22% (?)
Grants true sight on the target
Cooldown: 12s
Manacost: 25/50/75
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My turn :3
When i think about remake, suddenly tenshi and eiki comes to mind. No idea for eiki atm
(note : the blue coloured ones are the changes/remakes)
Tenshi
Stats
Strength 24 (+2.75)
Agility 21(+2.0)
Intelligence 20 (+1.5)
Damage: 62-65
Armor: 4.33
Movespeed: 300
Attack Range: 128 (melee)
Attack Animation: 0.567/0.4
Cast Animation: 0.2/0.42
Base Attack Time: 1.6
Missile Speed: 0
-some change in her stats since : a)60 total starting stats and 6.0 total growth for every girls ingame seems quite boring to me (tho it makes easier to balance every girl's stats) and b)her crap starting stats is one of the reasons why Tenshi gets no love
Earth Sign "Sword of the Unyielding Soil" (D)
Skills
Tenshi strikes the ground, launching a straight travelling fissure dealing damage and stunning enemies in its path. Fissure caused on ground cannot be passed. The crevasse lasts for 8 seconds on all levels
Cast Range: 900 (Maximum)
Width: 225
Spirit Cost: 100/115/130/145MP
Cooldown: 16/15/14/13s
Level 1: Does 125 damage and stuns for 1 seconds
Level 2: Does 175 damage and stuns for 1.25 seconds
Level 3: Does 225 damage and stuns for 1.5 seconds
Level 4: Does 275 damage and stuns for 1.75 seconds
-yes i copied fissure from earthshaker DotA because it was perfectly fine and quite balanced
Heaven Sign "Sword of the Divine Justice" (passive) (F)
Every 2 + [ 360/STR ] seconds, Tenshi deals a shockwave strike with her regular attack. Pressing the ESC key tells you how many seconds till the keystone is ready.
Level 1: 300 Area of Effect, deals 60 + [ 0,8 ? Bonus STR ] physical damage, 0.3 second stun.
Level 2: 340 Area of Effect, deals 80 + [ 0,8 ? Bonus STR ] physical damage, 0.4 second stun.
Level 3: 380 Area of Effect, deals 100 + [ 0,8 ? Bonus STR ] physical damage, 0.5 second stun.
Level 4: 420 Area of Effect, deals 120 + [ 0,8 ? Bonus STR ] physical damage, 0.6 second stun.
-i prefer leave her second skill alone, since its balanced
Keystone "World Creation Press" (R)
Tenshi descends onto the opponent with an enlarged keystone in her arms. Tenshi leaps 600 range foward and lands with giant keystone, smashing all enemies and stunning them. The closer to the keystone, the more damage taken and the longer the stun. Consume a keystone charge from Heaven Sign "Sword of the Divine Justice". If Tenshi doesn't land at any enemies at all, Tenshi suffers 25% slow for 1 second. Has 0.5 s casting time and 1400 leap speed.
Cast Range: N/A
Width: 350
Spirit Cost: 125
Cooldown: 12
Level 1: 50 damage min and 150 damage max, stuns for 0 seconds min and 1 seconds max
Level 2: 100 damage min and 225 damage max, stuns for 0 seconds min and 1.5 seconds max
Level 3: 150 damage min and 300 damage max, stuns for 0.5 seconds min and 2.0 seconds max
Level 4: 200 damage min and 375 damage max, stuns for 0.5 seconds min and 2.5 seconds max
-why consume a keystone? This is to prevent her capable of stunning everyone for eternity, and its quite logical to me (her keystone who circles around her head gets bigger when she jumps :3)
-the skill description seems complicated sorry x_x help for simplify the description will be appreciated
-cannot be used when you have no keystone charge, so if you're not skilled your F yet this skill will be impossible to use.
"Scarlet Weather Rhapsody of All Humankind" (W)
Launches red lightning all over the map, striking all enemy units. The map will be revealed for a brief moment with red mist, indicating an incoming attack. Channelling skill. Does pure damage.
Spirit Cost: 200/300/400MP
Cooldown: 120s
Level 1: Does 200 pure damage.
Level 2: Does 300 pure damage.
Level 3: Does 400 pure damage.
-Still the same ultimate (based on old version) maybe leave it for now, tho revealing your allies to your enemies is just stupid
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Just my quick thoughts on that.
I don't think that Tenshi needs a reduction on the MP cost of the W.
Also, how fast/visible would the R be?
That is all.
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hmm dunno for ultimate since she has problem with manapool already (even with maxed R) also thanks for reminding w
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The scaling shouldn't be that big. 500 pure damage is a crapton.
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Buy a crow or whatever the new energy booster will be. Problem solved.
The skills are too good otherwise, I think.
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but 500 pure at level 3 is from the original map i believe ( i copypaste em) anyway numbers can be changed too =D
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I'm quite sure it was 200 pure damage at max.
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I'm quite sure it was 200 pure damage at max.
No it was 200 pure at level 1.
I think it was 400500 at max.
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SWR got buffed (i didn't noticed tho,forgot which version) from 200/300/400 damage to 250/375/500 damage
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I personally think that the 200/300/400 values are better, especially if you're going to lower the mana cost (which I still dislike).
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i think the manacost should keep same as original tho, since no more scaling stuff like before (forcing tenshi to farm high-tier str items to make her do any good, instead of works pretty well with just 2 kebabs)
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What if Tenshi learns R before she learns F?
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she can't use her R then (same issue as storm spirit's passive). Well the skill desc seems awful but i got no idea how to describe it better
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skill 1(Donations, Please) - active/passive. Passive part lets her gain gold faster. Active lets her ping enemies on the map.
skill 2(Evil Sealing Circle) - active/passive. Gives her armor bonus, something low, like 1/2/3/4. Active part allows her to trap an enemy for several seconds. They cannot move and cast.
skill 3(Fantasy Seal) - damage spell.
skill 4(Musou Tensei, not sure what the translation for it is currently) - her ultimate. Temporary invincibility and does damage to all targets around her. Friendly fire.
I want to see Youmu's ultimate as a counter, Six Root Cleansing, but I don't know how that will work...
I also want to see Remilia as a melee character, instead of range. It does not make sense to me why Remilia is range.
I'm not in favour of too many skills that have active/passive components though. I'd rather have a 5th skill or just have each skill make a greater impact. A skill with 2 components cannot have either being as effective as they could be, otherwise why bother putting skill points into other skills? Not to mention that it complicates skill interactions. Certain effects can be achieved via better skill design, e.g. Reimu herself gains gold quicker than many other girls initially if she skills her yin-yang orb. Evil Sealing Circle is one of the skills in her alternate skillset - it creates a circular barrier that prevents units from escaping. Higher levels will have the sealing circle do damage.
An active counter-attack skill could work for Youmu in place of her current ult. I've only tweaked her armour breaking skill at the moment to just ignore a fixed percentage of armour for her own attacks at each level. Her changes will mostly come from changes in the stat system.
Remilia as a strength melee hero has been done before and was one of the ideas I was considering for her, but it makes using gungnir rather awkward unless she uses it as a melee weapon (?!). Although it looks weird, but a ranged Remilia makes it easier for her to hang back and gungnir people from outside of sight range or use bat form to close in for a gank.
Update: I'll write an API for the systems in the map soon, once I think it's ready for having skills put in. The original map had no such thing, making several older systems ignored by newer skills or never updated because they were forgotten, but still remained in the map for some skills. There's a tonne of documentation. orz... On the other hand, this should simplify a lot of coding - things like Gungnir can be done with less than half a page of code, as opposed to the 3-4 pages in the original map, since you just need to call on the projectile system and pass it an onHit function. Edit: In fact this will be a fun test of efficiency for my projectile system. Gonna see what happens when I launch 1000 gungnirs in this map vs the old one. Hehehehehe
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I'll be honest to say first that: Holy shit what happened to this thread? Why the hero numbers and brainstorming suddenly? Can we focus on like more important things first? Like, core mechanics / etc? These posts make it look like as if we're dealing with old dots here. The endless release of versions where numbers are endlessly tweaked for no reason. I thought we hated that or did I miss something here?
Priorities, personally they should be put at the map it self: Does it work? Is it efficient? Do the things work like Aph intended them to be. And so on. Balance/remakes/hero suggestions can come later, not now IMO.
Aph, yes I noticed that Valve doesn't responds although my e-mail was fairly formal instead of "HI VALVE, PLEASE(ry". I had asked it before at the Steam Support, but they redirected me to Valve's development e-mail or something for these kind of "business" proposals. Quite logical as they only do tech support.
Also, I couldn't read in your opening post whether you're returning back to the roots (no scaling skills between magical/physical like LoL) and those kind of things?
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I'm suggesting reworks on heroes that were horribly broken in the prior version of DotS.
Aph already seems to have ideas on how he wants the system to work, so I'm not saying anything about that.
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I'll be honest to say first that: Holy shit what happened to this thread? Why the hero numbers and brainstorming suddenly? Can we focus on like more important things first? Like, core mechanics / etc? These posts make it look like as if we're dealing with old dots here. The endless release of versions where numbers are endlessly tweaked for no reason. I thought we hated that or did I miss something here?
Priorities, personally they should be put at the map it self: Does it work? Is it efficient? Do the things work like Aph intended them to be. And so on. Balance/remakes/hero suggestions can come later, not now IMO.
Aph, yes I noticed that Valve doesn't responds although my e-mail was fairly formal instead of "HI VALVE, PLEASE(ry". I had asked it before at the Steam Support, but they redirected me to Valve's development e-mail or something for these kind of "business" proposals. Quite logical as they only do tech support.
Also, I couldn't read in your opening post whether you're returning back to the roots (no scaling skills between magical/physical like LoL) and those kind of things?
This.
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Aph asked for hero suggestions, so...He has his own direction for the game in terms of mechanics, and he's looking for ideas in general at this point. One sentence things like 'cut down creep scaling', or 'please don't put the boat back at moriya top' are better for irc, while threads are nice for big things like hero concepts. We're really just throwing ideas at him at this point.
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I was asked to give ideas.
I wouldn't have said anything if nobody had asked me to suggest anything ;)
The thing is, Aph has already written a lot of the system that he wants for the new DotS, and I personally have nothing to say against or in criticism of the implementation, so really, there is no reason to make those questions @ Helepolis.
I'll be honest to say first that: Holy shit what happened to this thread? Why the hero numbers and brainstorming suddenly? Can we focus on like more important things first? Like, core mechanics / etc? These posts make it look like as if we're dealing with old dots here. The endless release of versions where numbers are endlessly tweaked for no reason. I thought we hated that or did I miss something here?
The endless release of versions are probably because the developers never got them right after the second or third retweak in the first place. You're almost never going to get it right first time, but failing it past the fourth/fifth time is just stupid, that's just the incapability of the people to consider balance in the fist place. What should actually be questioned here isn't the core mechanics, but rather, what makes DotS different from others of the same style? Will there be no differing factors? I know Aph wanted to do something similar to team-unique abilities such as being able to summon Genji/Hisous (and thunder I guess) but those are not necessarily CORE mechanics...
Even in maps like DotA and LoL, number retweaks might occur like... Every x+1~3 patches or some shit. And that might be because a hero needs a buff or a nerf, not necessarily because the hero itself needed to become absolutely OP or needed to become absolutely useless...
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I think even DotA has some skills that scale now right? The original point of skills having scaling damage is to have them grow with the character. I stopped short of saying "so that they will still be useful late-game" because it's entirely possible to have a skill that doesn't scale that is still useful late-game. Set Okuu's nuke to do 5k damage for a silly example. What sets a scaling skill apart from one that doesn't scale is that the one that doesn't scale can be more useful early game. Having a 450 flat damage AoE skill gives the hero a potentially strong advantage that she can use early-mid. It may not be competitive late-game damage-wise, but that's where ancillary effects like stuns come in. Having ALL skills scale removes this variation, so yes I wouldn't like all the skills to scale, but that doesn't mean no scaling skills at all - some skills like Okuu's ult or Patchy's Philosopher's Stone which ought to be late-game skills do need some scaling.
I really do appreciate the ideas for heros btw. Nothing's really set in stone yet, except the direction that the map should go in - more towards canon-like character designs, less broken designs (like old Flandre... wtf), and hopefully better use of the faith resource either via weather control or team-specific abilities like those at the shrine. I did after make the Esc key hotkey the shop and the shrine so that it'd be easier to use these things. I wonder about the Moriya boat though. I liked those terrain features, but I haven't encountered any real abuse of the boat, only that it was pretty stupid to use it to run away from someone like Remilia or Aya. It was originally removed to make way for the yukkuri creep camp after all...
All the basic AoS systems work currently - hero selection, creep spawning, tower/barracks invulnerability (towers need to be taken down before rax), neutral creeps, resources, creep scaling (although set to zero at the moment, can be changed at a moment's notice via a game constant, or even in-game, and can be capped), shops, recipes, stash, defeat/victory conditions, observers, assists, bounty, terrain features, etc. It's entirely possible to play a full game on the map now... if people don't mind only have auto-attack and team-ping. Heh. Like Trance mentioned, ideas regarding how DotS should be different from DotA would be good - that's why I'm looking at the faith resource and team-unique abilities at the moment. In SC/WC3 melee, the secondary resource was vital for late-game units and strategies. I think faith can serve that purpose.
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Remilia as a strength melee hero has been done before and was one of the ideas I was considering for her, but it makes using gungnir rather awkward unless she uses it as a melee weapon (?!). Although it looks weird, but a ranged Remilia makes it easier for her to hang back and gungnir people from outside of sight range or use bat form to close in for a gank.
Looking at her current skill set, that would be the case. But Remilia is a melee attacker and preferes melee, which is why I would prefer her to be a melee hero. If you play the fighting games, she has 2 memorable skills, Spear the Gungnir and Red the Nightless Castle(or Scarlet Devil ~ Scarlet Devil). So, those would be my suggested skills.
For weapons, she should use fists. But does this make the Gungnir animation awkward? This could be an issue if this is the case.
The other skills I can think of is Dracula's Cradle, which would be a dash type skill and Regeneration of sorts.
These are my ideas on what skill set she would have to better fit her fighting style in canon.
Her skill set pretty much looks something like this:
1 range skill, 1 dash skill, 1 melee range utimate(Red the Nightless Castle), and a regeneration skill.
@Tenshi's DoTS skill set: Yeah, I don't think Tenshi is all that impressive in DoTS. Even her ultimate is not that good comparatively speaking. I believe it is also interruptable, which is painful.
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@Tenshi's DoTS skill set: Yeah, I don't think Tenshi is all that impressive in DoTS. Even her ultimate is not that good comparatively speaking. I believe it is also interruptable, which is painful.
>Tenshi.
>Not impressive.
>What the fuck am I reading?
Tanshi's old numbers used to be horribly broken. And even when they weren't, you never underestimate dual stuns.
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The old version of Tenshi is great, because you can stack strength. There was also that +60 strength item or something like that. So, the items and the skill made Tenshi dangerous.
However, since both that item(I believe it was called Tactitus or something like that) and Tenshi's skill was nerfed, the new version was unimpressive.
And yes, dual stuns are always nice, but the latter requires you to attack. With many superior choices, I do not see why you would think Tenshi is impressive.
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When I say old Tenshi, I'm talking pre-Tacitus. Tacitus was stupid anyway when it was first released.
Post 977, I'm pretty sure that Tenshi was nerfed into oblivion, but I didn't see Tenshi in those versions very much so I don't really care.
Also, Tacitus was never nerfed as far as I remember.
But yes, Tenshi in every version before 977 was very powerful. Don't understand how you could call her unimpressive.
Also, you are clearly underestimating how stupid fissure is.
Now that I'm not trying to take lecture notes at the same time, to reiterate:
I didn't see much of Tenshi post 977, because I didn't play much post 977. Hence, I don't know much about post 977 Tenshi, but I am told that she was hit hard with the nerfhammer.
Before this, however, Tenshi was a very powerful hero. I fail to see how in any way her tankiness and stuns were unimpressive in any way.
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I have never seen Tenshi pre-tacitus days, so I don't know how she works back then.
Let's take a hero in Dota as an example, since this hero plays similarly to Tenshi, one range stun, one AoE melee range stun. Earthshaker has 3 stuns, and would be unimpressive if there is no blink dagger. Which I believe DoTS does not have. In a team fight, Tenshi's ultimate is subpar, as it takes about 1 second to charge before it goes off, which means it can be interrupted if any player carries one of those things that turn you into Yukkuris or has some kind of stun/ministun.
Remember, the difference between Zeus' ultimate and Tenshi's ultimate is one has nearly no charge up time and the other does. Which is why I don't see the need for this talk about nerfing Tenshi's ultimate. Also, let's not forget heroes in DoTS have better skills than Dota heroes.
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I have never seen Tenshi pre-tacitus days, so I don't know how she works back then.
Exactly the same, but with different numbers.
Let's take a hero in Dota as an example, since this hero plays similarly to Tenshi, one range stun, one AoE melee range stun. Earthshaker has 3 stuns, and would be unimpressive if there is no blink dagger. Which I believe DoTS does not have.
You realize that Earthshaker is still a good hero without a blink dagger, right? Earthshaker simply becomes a great hero with a blink dagger.
However, the blink dagger difference is pretty much irrelevant due to the differences in how Earthshaker's ultimate ability works, which requires him to be in the middle of the enemy team to be fully effective.
Earthshaker's fissure remains devastating regardless of whether or not he has a blink dagger.
In a team fight, Tenshi's ultimate is subpar, as it takes about 1 second to charge before it goes off, which means it can be interrupted if any player carries one of those things that turn you into Yukkuris or has some kind of stun/ministun.
Tenshi's ultimate actually charges for 2 or 3 seconds IIRC.
If you're getting your ultimate interrupted as Tenshi, you're doing it wrong.
First of all, why the fuck would you use it in the middle of a team fight? Use it before for some weak initiate, or afterwards for cleanup.
If you do need it for burst in the middle of the fight, then you should be sitting the fuck back before using it.
If other people want to go out of their way to disable you to stop their ult, then you should be able to punish the fuck out of them for going out of position.
Remember, the difference between Zeus' ultimate and Tenshi's ultimate is one has nearly no charge up time and the other does. Which is why I don't see the need for this talk about nerfing Tenshi's ultimate. Also, let's not forget heroes in DoTS have better skills than Dota heroes.
There's no item like a pipe that can block the incoming damage, and magic resistance in general will not help against Tenshi's ultimate.
Also, if you're going to compare Zeus' ultimate to Tenshi's you forget that Zeus' ultimate costs 450 mana to cast at max level, and does much 460 magical damage (aka. much much less than Tanshi).
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You also forget that Zeus is also pretty bad in general with the rest of his kit while tenshi is far from it.
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Im pretty sure youre all mistaken. Erfshakurs best skill is enchant totem how else will he carry the game?
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Tenshi was all sorts of silly before 977.
also Remilia already has Gungnir and Nightless as skills, I'm not quite sure what there is to complain about. And everyone in Soku is fighting in melee, it's a fsking fighting game. A different genre entirely. In terms of WC3 maps, enough already make Remilia melee, and if we make her melee we blur the lines between her and Flan.
Earthshaker does :not: play similarly to Tenshi, that's just a surface comparison. Earthshaker doesn't walk up willynilly with no fears given, since he's squishy. Tenshi just builds straight strength; a generic Earthshaker gets more int items than str. Rightclicking is really an afterthought with Earthshaker after a certain point, while with Tenshi not so much.
Zeus? Don't compare rhapsody to zeus ult lol. that's a silly comparison, and a surface one again. Pure vs magic, usage in fights, as stated by Dormio. Tenshi was one of those heroes that effectively reduced everyone's max HP on the other team. If you reach a certain number, pew. Tenshi just has to back off and zap.
comparing dota to dots is really just...don't do it. Just don't.
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The only stupid thing about Tenshi (before 977) was your ultimate reveals the whole map for EVERY players (i mentioned this on my tenshi remake idea) both enemy and ally (this issue still exist for later versions, poor tenshi lovers..) I juked 3 heroes who was going to kill me because enemy tenshi uses her ulti, thats just hillarious.
Also i think for the heroes discussion we can talk em on GBA dots thread, since in this thread we gonna discuss about core mechanics, remake suggestion etc just like what hele said.
I think even DotA has some skills that scale now right?
well only really few ones (Dragonus and Centaur, forgot who else) but the fact still there. For the map direction i think every girls should follow their canon figure. However, for the items i think we can have some fanons stuff but with non-ridiculous effects (ex: sukusuku hakutaku as DotA janggo haha)
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doublepost sry
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@Tenshi's comparison: I have no idea how you are using Earthshaker, but if you think he is a good hero without blink dagger, then I disagree. There are so many better choices if blink dagger is not a valid item. Even with blink dagger, it isn't like Earthshaker is one of the best. The idea of blink dagger is so that you can stun 3 times in the middle of the group, giving your team ample time to own the opposing team. Also, it lets you actually get to the middle of the group of enemies, which is not going to happen normally.
Tenshi does not have this advantage, she has to walk up and attack with her sword of Divine Justice to get a stun off. If that is so, it comes to hero building, do you want to build her defensively, so she can sometimes pull this off? If so, then she won't have a decent mana pool to use her skills. I don't believe there is an Arcane Boots equivalent in DoTS.
First of all, why the fuck would you use it in the middle of a team fight? Use it before for some weak initiate, or afterwards for cleanup.
Which is my entire point, this is a strike against her. She essentially has no ultimate during a team fight.
Also, if you're going to compare Zeus' ultimate to Tenshi's you forget that Zeus' ultimate costs 450 mana to cast at max level, and does much 460 magical damage (aka. much much less than Tanshi).
You compare an INT hero to a STR hero for mana cost skills?
You also forget that Zeus is also pretty bad in general with the rest of his kit while tenshi is far from it.
Zeus is average. Nothing too impressive, not poor.
Earthshaker does :not: play similarly to Tenshi, that's just a surface comparison. Earthshaker doesn't walk up willynilly with no fears given, since he's squishy. Tenshi just builds straight strength; a generic Earthshaker gets more int items than str. Rightclicking is really an afterthought with Earthshaker after a certain point, while with Tenshi not so much.
Earthshaker plays SIMILAR in that they both have multiple AoE STUNS. Both need to be in melee range to use one of their AoE stuns. Building strength does not allow you to walk up and beat people. Even if Earthshaker, a STR hero, builds STR, it would not work. This is because the AoE stuns require you to be in melee range, so to be effective, you need to either get there by Force Staff or Blink Dagger or Lothar's Edge.
I don't see how Tenshi is any less squishy than Earthshaker if you get the same items. Tenshi does not have any significant defensive skills.
also Remilia already has Gungnir and Nightless as skills, I'm not quite sure what there is to complain about. And everyone in Soku is fighting in melee, it's a fsking fighting game. A different genre entirely. In terms of WC3 maps, enough already make Remilia melee, and if we make her melee we blur the lines between her and Flan.
From the WC3 maps I play, Remilia is range. As far as I know, Remilia prefers melee over range, this is shown fairly often enough. Not just in Soku, but her last word in Imperishable Night, in the manga, etc.
If you want to differentiate the two, then have Flandre be range and Remilia be melee. It makes more sense to me, considering their personalities and fighting style.
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@Tenshi's comparison: I have no idea how you are using Earthshaker, but if you think he is a good hero without blink dagger, then I disagree. There are so many better choices if blink dagger is not a valid item. Even with blink dagger, it isn't like Earthshaker is one of the best. The idea of blink dagger is so that you can stun 3 times in the middle of the group, giving your team ample time to own the opposing team. Also, it lets you actually get to the middle of the group of enemies, which is not going to happen normally.
I'm sorry I had to stop to laugh here for a while.
I have no idea how you are using Earthshaker, but if you think Earthshaker is a bad hero without a blink dagger, then I disagree.
No shit a blink dagger into a full combo will wreck the enemy team. He's still a good hero before he gets it. If you don't understand the benefits of a potential 8 second disable on a 15 second cooldown, I have no idea what to say to you.
Tenshi does not have this advantage, she has to walk up and attack with her sword of Divine Justice to get a stun off. If that is so, it comes to hero building, do you want to build her defensively, so she can sometimes pull this off? If so, then she won't have a decent mana pool to use her skills. I don't believe there is an Arcane Boots equivalent in DoTS.
And again, Tenshi plays completely differently to Earthshaker. I have no idea why you would make the comparison in the first place.
You compare an INT hero to a STR hero for mana cost skills?
Yes, because Zeus has a shit pool.
Which is my entire point, this is a strike against her. She essentially has no ultimate during a team fight.
And why does she need one? It's an ultimate for a different purpose. Doesn't make it any better or worse.
I mean, according to your criterion, is Hatate's ultimate shit? It contributes nothing to a teamfight after all.
Like, seriously, how the fuck does having a different purpose make it shit?
Zeus is average. Nothing too impressive, not poor.
Zeus is shit. He is not average, he is far below average. I will fight you if you claim otherwise.
Earthshaker plays SIMILAR in that they both have multiple AoE STUNS. Both need to be in melee range to use one of their AoE stuns. Building strength does not allow you to walk up and beat people. Even if Earthshaker, a STR hero, builds STR, it would not work. This is because the AoE stuns require you to be in melee range, so to be effective, you need to either get there by Force Staff or Blink Dagger or Lothar's Edge.
I don't see how Tenshi is any less squishy than Earthshaker if you get the same items. Tenshi does not have any significant defensive skills.
They're not similar at all.
Tenshi provides tankiness and utility.
Earthshaker provides initiation.
What the fuck?
Tenshi is less squishy than Earthshaker because Earthshaker is forced to build other items, whereas Tenshi can sink about 1000 gold into MP to fix all her MP problems and dump the rest into HP, which happens to cause her other stun to scale.
Not to mention that the DotS defensive items are much stronger than the DotA defensive items.
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Um... can we do the hero comparisons over here please - http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,11428.690.html?
Danke. ._.
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Hmm, just discovered this thread now and since everyone is suggesting, I might as well post my Nitori idea on here.
The numbers of course are subject to change and the innate is just something that was in the old DotS, so you can ignore it.
Nitori stats
Str: 19 + 1.8
Agi: 14 +1.3
Int (M): 27 + 2.9
Health: ?
Mana: ?
Move speed: ?
Model (Wishful thining): On foot with a bag that has robot arms coming out of it
Aspd: ?
Atttack animation: ?
Title: Super Youkai Warhead or Aquatic Engineer
Skills
Innate, Kappa "Exteeeending Aaaaarm"
Effect: For every lvl gained, increases Nitori's attack range by 10
First skill, Optics "Optical Camouflage"
Effect: Turns Nitori sorta-invisible and prevents damage from one attack (Except instant kills) during it's duration
Duration: 8/9/10/11
Cool down: 30/25/20/15 sec
Mana cost: ?
Second skill, Cucumber Missle Barrage
Effect: Bombards a area of 300 with missles for 4 secs.
Damage: 75/100/125/150 dps for 4 secs
AOE: 300
Cast range: 600
Cool down:15 sec
Mana cost: ?
Third skill, Water Sign "Kappa's Flash Flood"
Effect: Launches a missile that lands after a while in a splash of water that deals 60/90/120/150 magic damage and slows for 25/30/35/40% for 4 secs and pushes heroes from the center of the splash 200 distance with a maximum distance of 280 from the center of the splash.
Damage: 60/90/120/150 magic damage
Cast time: 0.75 sec
AOE: 280
Caste range: 650
Cool down: 15 sec
Mana cost: ?
Ult, Super Youkai Warhead
Effect: Launches a homing missle at the target that takes sometime time to activate
Damage: 400/650/900 magic damage
AOE: 325
Move speed: 250/290/330
Unit type: Ward
Health: 400/600/800
Cast time: 1 sec
Activation time: 3 sec
Cast range: 2000
Max range: 3500
Cool down: 90 sec
Mana cost: ?
Note, I thought of this idea a long time ago as a suggestion to the old developers of DotS with the help of ApharmdB, as out of all the Touhou characters on DotS, Nitori was the most far from her canon counterpart what with actually being a Gundam (Model, skills and all), which kinda bothered me so I suggested the idea to Aph to make her more inline with her canon.
Also, ApharmdB, instead of her innate, can you make it so that Nitori is a Melee classification that just has a very far reach? It's a little quirk I feel that just needs to be added.....
Also also, I feel like her ult needs to be faster...Hmm.....
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@Ran Yakumo: I am not going to reply to hero comparison posts anymore, because we clearly disagree.
In either case, Nitori's extending arm, I think it may be better to make it an active skill. She would be melee range, maybe 128 or something. And extending arm increases that range up to maybe 700(melee). Her innate should be create a cucumber or something. So she can load it and use it with her other skills. Maybe get some minor bonuses if she has more cucumbers on her? I am unsure if this should be made as a item or just a counter.
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Want some Yukari skills? HAVE SOME YUKARI SKILLS!
Yukari Yakumo
Strength 18+1.4
Agility 15+1.3
Intelligence 27+2.9
Damage: 48-50
Armor: 0
Movement: 290
Attack range: 600
Attack Animation: .7/.6
Cast Animation: .2/.4
*Yukari cannot move at any point while casting a barrier spellcard, but can still attack, and has to channel for
1 second to dispel the barrier. Minus Barrier "Objective Barrier"
*Refer to Aph about Evil SPirits Spiriting Away
*Yukari's barriers are ended if she is silenced, but not stunned.
Barrier "Curse of Dreams and Reality"
Yukari sets up a barrier, causing enemies dreams to become a reality.
Creates illusions of every enemy unit, each doing ??% damage of the
originals damage. Illusions cannot be targeted, illusions disappear
when Yukari turns off the barrier, and disappear if the enemy leaves
the AoE.
AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Mana cost: 5/4/3/2% max mana per second
Cooldown: 1 second
Level 1: 45% illusion damage
Level 2: 55% illusion damage
Level 3: 65% illusion damage
Level 4: 75% illusion damage
Barrier "Balance of Motion and Stillness"
Yukari sets up a barrier, causing enemies to realize their own
sluggishness. Enemy girls move much slower, while allied girls
move much faster.
AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Mana cost: 5/4/3/2% max mana per second
Cooldown: 1 second
Level 1: 10% movement speed bonus/reduction
Level 2: 15% movement speed bonus/reduction
Level 3: 20% movement speed bonus/reduction
Level 4: 25% movement speed bonus/reduction
Barrier "Mesh of Light and Darkness"
Yukari sets up a barrier, causing all units to see everything
and nothing. All allied girls gain additional vision while
enemy girls lose vision.
AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Mana cost: 5/4/3/2% max mana per second
Cooldown: 1 second
Level 1: Allies gain 500 vision, enemies lose 250 vision
Level 2: Allies gain 1000 vision, enemies lose 400 vision
Level 3: Allies gain 1500 vision, enemies lose 550 vision
Level 4: Allies gain flying vision, enemies lose 2500 vision
Evil Spirits "Yukari Yakumo's Spiriting Away"
Yukari gaps away a unit, sealing it away for
a few seconds. Should an enemy creep be gapped away,
it is permanently gapped, giving Yukari bonus gold
after a 60 second duration.
Targeted
Mana cost: 90/100/110/120
Cooldown: 60 if creep, 15 if otherwise
Cast range: 550
Level 1: Gapped for 1.5 seconds, +15 gold
Level 2: Gapped for 2 seconds, +25 gold
Level 3: Gapped for 2.5 seconds, +35 gold
Level 4: Gapped for 3 seconds, +45 gold
Evil Spirits "Xanadu of straight and Curve"
Yukari enchants an enemy girl, causing them to be
confused about direction. Should an enemy girl be targeted
with this spell, they will travel in the reverse direction
should they try to move.
Targeted enemy girl
Mana cost: 85/100/115/130
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Cast range: 600
Level 1: Lasts 1.5 seconds
Level 2: Lasts 2.0 seconds
Level 3: Lasts 2.5 seconds
Level 4: Lasts 3.0 seconds
Fantasy Next "Flying Glow Worm's Nest"
Yukari collects herself, then fires several small lasers that scatter
everywhere in an area in front of Yukari for a few seconds. Each
laser does 15 magic damage.
Channeling, 1 second set-up. Movement afterwards cancels casting.
Targeted ground, cone AoE
AoE: 50(Laser AoE)/700(distance)/100(Starting AoE)/300(Final AoE)
Fires 20 lasers per second
Missile speed: 1600
Mana cost: 130/140/150/160
Cooldown: 40/35/30/25
Level 1: Lasts 2 seconds
Level 2: Lasts 3 seconds
Level 3: Lasts 4 seconds
Level 4: Lasts 5 seconds
Sinister Spirits "Double Black Death Butterfly"
Yukari lets out a single butterfly, that moves very slowly to
an enemy girl. When it does reach her, the butterfly violently
explodes, causing massive damage. Should Yukari cast once more,
the previous butterfly will vanish, and will also vanish should
the targeted girl die.
Targeted enemy girl.
Mana cost: 150/250/350/450
Cooldown: 360/270/180/90
Butterfly moving speed: 150
Cast range: 900
Level 1: 300 damage
Level 2: 450 damage
Level 3: 600 damage
Level 4: 750 damage
Shikigami "Ran Yakumo"
Yukari flings Ran out of a gap, then Ran returns to the gap.
Ran deals damage going towards the target location and back.
Can damage twice.
Targeted ground
Mana cost: 60/70/80/90
Cooldown: 19/17/15/13
Ran missile speed: 500(stops when at targeted point, then returns at same speed)
Area of effect: 150
Casting range: 700
Level 1: 50 damage
Level 2: 75 damage
Level 3: 100 damage
Level 4: 125 damage
"Boundary of Humans and Youkai"
Yukari makes an enemy girl have the weaknesses of the other
race forced upon them, reducing their abilities.
Nothing happens if they are agility.
Targeted enemy girl
Mana cost: 95/105/115/125
Cooldown: 20
Cast range: 500
Duration: 9 seconds
Level 1: -6 str if int, -6 int if str
Level 2: -9 str if int, -9 int if str
Level 3: -12 str if int, -12 int if str
Level 4: -15 str if int, -15 int if str
Barrier "Boundary of Life and Death"
Yukari sets up a barrier, in this area, enemy girls realize
their own mortality, while allies feel the rejuvination of
life.
AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Mana cost: 5/4/3/2% max mana per second
Cooldown: 1 second
Level 1: Enemy girls die if they get below 7% hp, ally girls heal .75% maxhp/sec
Level 2: Enemy girls die if they get below 8% hp, ally girls heal 1% maxhp/sec
Level 3: Enemy girls die if they get below 9% hp, ally girls heal 1.25% maxhp/sec
Level 4: Enemy girls die if they get below 10% hp, ally girls heal 1.5% maxhp/sec
Evil Spirits "Bewitching Butterfly Living in the Zen Temple"
Yukari lets out a butterfly, which is invisible to all enemy units(true-sightable)
Should an enemy girl come within 200 range of the butterfly, it explodes, greatly
reducing attack and movement speed for a few seconds.
Targeted ground
AoE: 200
Mana cost: 30/40/50/60
Vision: 100
Cooldown: 10
Slow Duration: 2.5
Level 1: Max 1 butterfly, -25% movement/attack speed
Level 2: Max 1 butterfly, -30% movement/attack speed
Level 3: Max 2 butterfly, -35% movement/attack speed
Level 4: Max 2 butterfly, -40% movement/attack speed
Border Sign "Quadruple Barrier"
Yukari sets up four barriers in front of herself, greatly
reducing all damage she gets while facing the enemy for four
instances of damage.
Self-Target
Yukari's front is considered 70 degrees from her front.
Mana cost: 100/115/130/145
Cooldown: 19
Duration: 11
Level 1: Reduces damage by 20%
Level 2: Reduces damage by 40%
Level 3: Reduces damage by 60%
Level 4: Reduces damage by 80%
Barrier "Charming Quadruple Barrier"
Yukari sets up a barrier, allowing her allies(not herself)
to negate attacks on occasion.
AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Mana cost: 5/4/3/2% max mana per second
Cooldown: 1 second
Level 1: 5% chance
Level 2: 10% chance
Level 3: 15% chance
Level 4: 20% chance
Shikigami "Chen"
Yukari fires Chen at a target location, dealing a small amount of damage.
Chen only damages once.
Targeted ground
Mana cost: 20/30/40/50
Cooldown: 19/17/15/13
Chen missile speed: 600(stops when at targeted point, then returns at same speed)
Area of effect: 150
Casting range: 1000
Level 1: 25 damage
Level 2: 50 damage
Level 3: 75 damage
Level 4: 100 damage
Border Sign "Boundary between 2D and 3D"
Yukari creates a border around herself and starts up danmaku along
the edge. The danmaku deals damage to anyone that touches it.
Active(no targeting)
Mana cost per second: 5/8/11/14
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Duration: ~
Danmaku speed: 360
Border AoE: 1000(centered on Yukari)
Level 1: 80 damage
Level 2: 100 damage
Level 3: 120 damage
Level 4: 140 damage
Barrier "Objective Barrier"
Yukari creates a border around herself and starts up 4 danmaku waves along
the edge. Each danmaku deals damage to anyone that touches it.
Active(no targeting)
Mana cost per second: 20/32/44/56
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Duration: ~
Danmaku speed: 360
Border AoE: 1000(centered on Yukari)
Level 1: 50 damage
Level 2: 60 damage
Level 3: 70 damage
Level 4: 80 damage
Outer Force "Infinite Superspeed Flying Object"
Yukari teleports to any target location on the map, but reveals the location
to everyone. Requires 2.5 seconds of channeling time.
Target ground
Mana cost: 110
Level 1: Cooldown 120 seconds
Level 2: Cooldown 90 seconds
Level 3: Cooldown 60 seconds
Level 4: Cooldown 30 seconds
Profound Danmaku Bounded Field -Phantasm, Foam and Shadow-
Yukari takes a few seconds to compose herself, then sprays 100
danmaku bullets in an area around her, dealing massive damage
to all units in the area, and knocking them back.
Channeling(2 seconds)
Activate(no targeting)
Mana cost: 200/300/400/500
AoE: 925
Cooldown: 240/220/200/180
Knockback: 300
Level 1: 200 damage
Level 2: 300 damage
Level 3: 400 damage
Level 4: 500 damage
Border Sign "Boundary of Form and Emptiness"
Yukari sets up a barrier, making everyone(not herself)
lose their physical form, allowing them to take extra
magic damage and be slowed. The status is removed once
they leave the barrier.
AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Cooldown: 1 second
Level 1: 5% max mana per second
Level 2: 4% max mana per second
Level 3: 3% max mana per second
Level 4: 2% max mana per second
Border Sign "Boundary of Wave and Particle"
Yukari sets up a barrier, making all magic spells do physical
damage instead and making all physical spells and attacks do magic damage.
AoE: 750(Centered on Yukari)
Mana cost: 5%/4%/3%/2% max mana per second
Cooldown: 1 second
Level 1: 25% conversion
Level 2: 50% conversion
Level 3: 75% conversion
Level 4: 100% conversion
Shikigami "Ran Yakumo +"
Yukari fires Ran and Chen at the same time, dealing damage.
Ran and Chen do seperate damage, Chen does damage only once,
and Ran does damage both ways.
Target ground
Mana cost: 80/100/120/140
Cooldown: 19/17/15/13
Chen missile speed: 1000
Chen target: 1000
Ran missile speed: 500
Chen target: 500
Casting range: 500
Level 1: 80 damage
Level 2: 100 damage
Level 3: 120 damage
Level 4: 140 damage
Aerial Bait "Laced with Venom"
Yukari targets an area, and after 2.5 seconds, several lasers
strike that spot, the lasers come from any direction from 600 distance away.
Each laser does 70 damage.
Target ground
Mana cost: 90/120/150/180
Cooldown: 25/24/23/22
Casting range: 600
Level 1: 2 lasers will appear
Level 2: 3 lasers will appear
Level 3: 4 lasers will appear
Level 4: 5 lasers will appear
Abandoned Line "Aimless Journey to the Abandoned Station"
After 2 seconds channeling, Yukari summons a train that travels
along the map, dealing damage and knocking up any unit that gets
in its way. However, the train deals less damage the more it travels.
At the end of its trip, the train goes back into it's gap. Units can
only get damaged once, but can be hit by the train 3 times.
Target ground
Mana cost: 200/300/400/500
Cooldown: 360/270/180/90
Casting range: global
Train speed: 522
Train duration: Disappears after 5000 distance
Knockup(.52 stun)
Damage decay: 2% per 100 distance
Level 1: 200 damage
Level 2: 350 damage
Level 3: 500 damage
Level 4: 650 damage
Magic Eye "Laplace's Demon"
Yukari sets up several eyes in an area, the eyes cannot be
targeted and are invunlerable. Whenever Yukari attacks a unit,
the eyes each attack the unit as well, but only if they are close enough.
Target ground
Mana cost: 110/125/140/155
Duration: 15 seconds
Eye attack: 10~10
Eye attack range: 900
Eye vision: 400/400
Eye appearance: 600 AoE centered on targeted area
Cast range: 300
Level 1: 3 eyes
Level 2: 4 eyes
Level 3: 5 eyes
Level 4: 6 eyes
*Eyes only attack should the attack on the enemy unit land.
"Yakumo's Nest"*Ultimate*
Yukari finds her current abilities unfit for the situation, so
she merely changes them with her abilities.
Changes 3 current skills.
Level 1: 400 seconds
Level 2: 330 seconds
Level 3: 260 seconds
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I'm disagreeing with you too, Star, and I'm finding it very amusing how you're commenting on these balance changes despite being a person who mostly played post 977. Post 977 is the whole reason we're doing this remake; the design decisions after that and even before that were all ones we did not agree with.
anyways, I approve of Yukari.
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Breaking the hero idea spamming with a few item ideas:
NOTE: NEW IDEAS WILL BE IMBALANCED. JUST JUDGE THE IDEA ITSELF, NOT THE NUMBERS.
Wards: IMO, you should not add wards to the sideshops. Pretty obvious reasons why. Wards were by far the strongest items in Dota, and has had constant nerfs because of it. Adding it to the sideshops just makes it harder for the enemy side to push back by farming inside neuts or whatever.
Early game: Waffles and friends are not going to be consumable anymore, and pretty much everyone on IRC when I was on agreed. Post your reasons if you disagree. Instead, the early game items can be used as base items to build to midgame items. The base stat items and a few other items like metallic bra should remain/be put back in. Remove the stupid Fruit Basket please. I think the fact that 6+ people always got it says it all.
New earlygame item: Metallic Bra + Recipe(250+200?) - Gives the same chance as metallic bra to block, but can block any instance of damage. Useful against dot effects. This item will not upgrade to anything else. Alternatively, could make the chance to block non-physical damage lower if it's too strong.
New earlygame item: Soft Drink + Fruit Knife + Recipe (350+450+400?) - Gives a 5 damage aura. Can be toggled. Early game pushing item. Probably is way too strong lol.
New midgame item: NO IDEA ON BUILDUP - blocks 1 instance of magical damage every 20 seconds. ONLY MAGIC DAMAGE.
New midgame item: NO IDEA ON BUILDUP - targets an enemy hero. all units within 1500 and facing the hero gets a 25% movespeed bonus(direction facing is from -15 degrees to 15 degrees). Doesn't reveal the target, and the target will have a debuff icon. Debuff lasts 8 seconds.
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Wards are very weak in DotS though, or at least so insignificant we never bothered to use them. The map design just ruined the usefulness of wards. Also, has there been any general ideas on what to do with the map?
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True, the map design made wards pretty meh, since there aren't that many cliffs to begin with besides the ones near the lane. You can see inside the enemy base due to lack of uphills, and the forests didn't wall of nearly as much sight.
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New earlygame item: Soft Drink + Fruit Knife + Recipe (350+450+400?) - Gives a 5 damage aura. Can be toggled. Early game pushing item. Probably is way too strong lol.
Isn't that basically the same as Ring of Aquila on the aura, except weaker? I guess how strong it depends on practice depends on the strength of the intended creeps, which hasn't been fully concretized yet, I don't think?
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The idea was to give an item that transitioned from ganks to pushing easily. Mana regen for spells to gank, then toggle the damage aura from heroes only to all units to give more pushing power. If the creeps are any way similar to dota, then it would be a 25% increase in damage for the creeps, which is too high. But dots scaling was lol, so I assumed old scaling.
Midgame Item: +10 Int Item, +Mana Item, Recipe(expecting about 3k gold total) - activate to regain all mana used in the past 3 seconds. The gain happens over 10 seconds at a constant rate. Dispelled on any damage. Betting it will be too strong if implemented as is, regardless of the current balance of the map. The idea behind this is for mages to regain mana after ganks or major teamfights, but not during the fight.
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I said this earlier to aph on IRC via query but Flute should probably be adjusted to an actually bought midgame item but there were some concerns about that.
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I'm disagreeing with you too, Star, and I'm finding it very amusing how you're commenting on these balance changes despite being a person who mostly played post 977. Post 977 is the whole reason we're doing this remake; the design decisions after that and even before that were all ones we did not agree with.
I don't remember ever saying I played mostly after 977. Please do not make any false assumptions. I rather not make any more comments on this, so that is all I will say to your response.
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I don't remember ever saying I played mostly after 977. Please do not make any false assumptions. I rather not make any more comments on this, so that is all I will say to your response.
I have never seen Tenshi pre-tacitus days, so I don't know how she works back then.
Keep digging...
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Couldn't we just make Flute into drum?
also I realised old Marisa, way back in 949 and before, was doing Morph's eth-blade combo before ethblade even existed. Dash in, ethereal, nuke, instagib, leave.
my mind is blown.
well, so was pugna, really. without the dash in.
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Orz keep it civil guys. This thread is for discussion and suggestions about the map in development instead of the old map.
@Starxsword: I do need to state first though, that I'm not intending to make all the same goofy design decisions that the original map made post-977. A lot of things sound like they'd be nice to have - active/passive 2-in-1 skills, innates, a bazillion items, skills that have a craptonne of effects, but they don't work out so well in actual play to bring about any sort of gameplay depth or strategy or even the character's canon traits. 977 did get some stuff right (e.g. 5v5, which makes supports somewhat more valuable), but for the most part, oddball decisions like giving everyone an innate and putting in a tonne of new items that seemed like "let's make everyone's skills into items" and having everything scale just made the map more bland. That's why for this map, I have no intention of putting in a vamp item. Skill-wise, Marisa's 4 simple skills have a far greater impact than say, all of Koishi's and Daiyousei's. But the biggest reason why I'm doing this is because the code in the old map has gotten so.... bad (for the lack of a better word), that it's no longer possible to salvage it without a complete re-write. Those on IRC might have occasionally seen me ranting away at how the map was coded and it's really no wonder that the thing lags to hell on computers that can run DotA just fine at even 30fps.
If anyone wonders why the new maps look more sterile, it's because all fog and weather effects were removed - Moriya no longer has autumn leaves falling, Hakurei no longer has sunshine, the faint yellow fog across the map, everything was removed so that people could adjust the camera all the time. Well I might have a solution for that with a new timer/local fog calculation system, but that needs stability testing first.
Anyone wanting to check out the creep scaling / spawning system now can check the alpha map on Tewi. Future plans will include doubling or tripling the interval between creep upgrades (it's currently set to 1 min per upgrade, up to a max of 30 for testing).
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What about odd designs like Kaguya, who had perma reincarnation? Sure it was strong as fuck, but it fit the character at least.
Also, I'm assuming the scaling of the creeps will be a lot more gradual now? What about wave size increases?
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I rather liked pre-977 Kaguya. She had a very different support game from most heros and could really screw over teams who don't plan for her. Her reincarnation was very strong yeah, but it was far from invincible against someone who could harass her early game. IIRC if you managed to force her to reincarnate just once early on, e.g. before she hits lvl 3, you'd have set her game so far back that unless she's a pro-spinner and had her teammates assist her in ganking other heros to keep them off her back, she might find it night impossible to get back into the game. Heros like Rin who have ranged summons, or a fast melee hero with the good girl card, were very very good at doing that.
Creep scaling, well I've put in some numbers, though I was too sleepy to remember what I actually wrote. I fast-forwarded their scaling to once a minute instead of the intended once every 3 minutes or so for testing. Wave size increase is tweakable via a game constant - currently at about 1 hour in, you'll have 6 melee creeps and 2 ranged creeps spawning, and 2 siege creeps every other wave. Performance considerations make it hard to push the number of melee creeps to 7, and I don't actually see a point in doing so anyway. It's probably better to give the creeps another 5 levels of upgrades instead of adding so many creeps. 1 hour into the game (I went afk) and my fps would drop from the initial 64 to 35 whenever I viewed a lane with something like 30+ creeps clashing at once together with the 2456772856378 power items (those particle effects add up!)
Oh yeah, I'm thinking of making the power items heal some minor hp for str heros, mp for int heros and provide a temp armour boost for agility heros upon picking them up, in addition to the +1 damage which I'm thinking of capping at +20 instead of +30 like in the old map. This is in lieu of adding to their "main stat" which would mean +30 str for strength heros last time which gave a craptonne of bonus hp.
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Make Power items disappear if they haven't been picked up for a minute or so?
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Yes, in fact, probably after 20 seconds. Just tested a 50 minute long game with Dular and daaaamn was there a lot of shiny things on the ground.
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I was thinking maybe you could include an auto-collect if anyone gets a double/triple/quad/rampage, with increasing ranges for the auto-collect depending on what you just got. And killing someone on a spree or greater also induces auto collect, including any P the victim may have dropped, so we get something Touhou like.
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Just tested the map without model pack =) It's fun when you can't click on your own hero.
Can you colour code the ping command?
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Orz I kinda want Renko's playstyle to remain to be as it is now. She can do anything and can build into anything, and as such is one of the most diverse girls in the game and brings a lot to the plate. Except pushing power. We have
Orin, Utsuho, Yuuka, Lily, Kanako team for that :V
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Renko
Agi + Str Hybrid
Innate: 'Singularity'
Adds +7 Agi and gives a +7 mana regen with every spell used, Stacks up to 7 times, both agi and mana regen. Lasts 7 seconds.
1)Ultraviolet 'Rayleigh?Jeans Catastrophe'
1) Deals AoE damage around self(Renko can deny herself with this skill. Does not damage allies)
2) Adds Armor around self(Allies + self)
3) Stuns around self
4) Adds Magic Resistance around self(Allies + self)
2)String Theory 'Euler's Formula'
1) Does damage and drains stats from enemy girls hit
2) Stuns in a line
3) Lower enemy attack and movement speed
4) Recover some damage done as mana
3)Spacetime 'Schwarzschild Wormhole'
1) Adds Lifesteal
2) Adds attack speed
3) Teleports to nearest enemy girl
4) Adds Attack Damage
4)Unification 'Super Physicist' (Ultimate)
1) Ultimate implodes after it is used up
2) Adds +50% skill damage and duration
3) Lasts longer
4) Chance to critical
Uncertainty 'Quantum Mechanics' (Is learnt with Ultimate, passive)
When all spells are on cooldown, adds 100% base damage for one hit.
When Renko has not enough mana to cast anything, increases movement speed by 10%.
If Renko dies while she has mana to cast spells and they are not on cooldown, she deals 100% her attack damage in a 300 aoe around herself.
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To be honest I think the Ulti-passive is a little too much, but tell me what I can do to improve?
Orz
Also this is just a rough idea. I'll do a detailed one soon.
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You must have missed that part where we said no innates. Nevermind that the numbers you just suggested are stupidly overpowered.
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You must have missed that part where we said no innates. Nevermind that the numbers you just suggested are stupidly overpowered.
:V
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3)Spacetime 'Schwarzschild Wormhole'
1) Adds Lifesteal
2) Adds attack speed
3) Teleports to nearest enemy girl
4) Adds Attack Damage
Do you even know what the Schwarzschild wormhole is? A Schwarzschild wormhole would collapse too quickly for any sort of travel to happen from one hole to the other, so your little blink strike trick wouldn't even be rightly compared to the skill name :V
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Orz I think Renko's character has a lot of potential. I mean, theoretical physics is a huge megatonne of imagination and speculation (and money in the real world). Why devalue that by throwing together a seemingly random array of game bonuses into each skill?
Off the top of my head:
Quantum Tunneling: Zero-collision, bonus movespeed, ability to phase through terrain and units. Higher levels could perhaps add invis as well. Ending the effect of the skill on top of a unit will cause damage to that unit (telefragging).
Grand Unified Theory of Everything: Activating it combines all the effects of her skills at once, and adds 1/2/3 to their levels and casts them. Or to be somewhat more true to the namesake of the theory, powers up all her skills for a certain duration.
Higgs Field: Lowers the target's mass so that it can be knocked away by any damage for some time, or increase it to the point that it costs mana just to move.
Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle: Evasion, counter-attack when evasion procs
PHYSICS.
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Do you even know what the Schwarzschild wormhole is? A Schwarzschild wormhole would collapse too quickly for any sort of travel to happen from one hole to the other, so your little blink strike trick wouldn't even be rightly compared to the skill name :V
Trance this is Gensokyo
Trance science is different because a universal law has been established
Trance i know you are sick but it's okay that you didn't think about the laws of Gensokyo
Trance I know you don't like when I put names into stuff
It's okay I forgive you
/shot
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Renko comes from outside Gensokyo
discuss
Anyways on topic I have most of Momiji's mechanics ironed out and mostly have number tweaking to do but i'll refrain from posting stuff until I have some better numbers which will have to wait until lane and jungle creeps are not 1k hp monsters with skills and alot of chaos damage and until it's actually important.
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Idk one thing that always bugged me was how small the map was, though i dont think you plan on changing :V
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I can't do much about the terrain until I get a lot better at messing with terrain myself. The map itself can be made "larger" by reducing the movement speeds of all heros by say, 100 *trollface*
Update: Just put in an comically complicated regeneration system in place that allows for a global regen factor (might be used by weather), hero regen factor (used to shutdown regen), regen percent, base regen and bonus regen, all these for both hp and mp, and different statistics for day and night. The regen formula for both hp and mp is currently set at (global regen factor*hero regen factor*((100% + regen percent)*base regen + bonus regen + (%max regen*max hp))). I couldn't find information on whether bonus regen percent applies to flat rate bonus regen, but that formula can be tweaked if it's supposed to. Regeneration occurs at 4 ticks per second. Will be benchmarking the thing later, comparing performance when loading it on the single high frequency timer used for all other systems in the map, and its own timer.
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Heh, removing everyone's movement speed by 100 would be so much trolling. When Kaguya was 250 or maybe 200 or something, it was so frustrating using her.
If you plan to keep the weather system, I suggest making the weather change every 60 seconds or so like in SWR and Soku.
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It currently changes every 90 seconds in the map, again tweakable via a game constant setting. The random weather mode is selectable via a game mode setting, as is a no-weather mode.
Kaguya's old movement speed was 150 if you played 0.949 :x Her 250 movespeed was painful enough even in 967g. It'll be closer to 275 in this map instead, when she decides to stop being a neet and come out to play.
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Yeah, I remember it was horrible. I think I played the one where she had 150 movement speed before, she was moving very very slow. Her constant resurrection was fun, but the movement speed made her unplayable even with that umbrella that lets you teleport.
I also did not know there was a random weather mode setting, I just normally play with default settings.
90 seconds sounds like a good number, I was just suggesting an automated weather change, because I did not know that the current translated version changes weather.
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Oh, no I'm not referring to the latest translated map. I'm referring to the map that I'm working on, the one in the screenshots in the first post of this thread. There's stuff in this map that's not in the original map, translated or not.
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you forgot the part where Renko isn't from Gensokyo
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you forgot the part where Renko isn't from Gensokyo
You forgot the part where DotS is in Gensokyo
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Trance this is Gensokyo
Trance science is different because a universal law has been established
Trance i know you are sick but it's okay that you didn't think about the laws of Gensokyo
Trance I know you don't like when I put names into stuff
It's okay I forgive you
/shot
You forgot that physics exist in gensokyo
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Or does it?
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also one thing i just want to throw around is rather then using true random maybe make it pseudo random.... well if its even possible
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Less semantics, more skill suggestions for Renko.
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Ok, yes there needs to be less trashy posts. :/
Will have to tidy this thread up later (or bother Hele / Pesco to >.<).
DrRawr: It's possible to use a skewed distribution like the Poisson one for calculating probabilities to achieve that pseudo-random effect, yeah. It'll just be computationally heavier. Maybe not. Pre-calculating the probabilities and storing them in an array wouldn't increase the overhead that much. Will test something like that out later.
Update: <3 LUA object generation. Item placeholders are in now.
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Yea im just mentioning it because having to rely THAT heavily on luck isnt a very good game design. Dota and LoL have this and both are very good games. Though for some reason dota2 doesnt.....
Edit, huh after reading about it more its apparently already part of the wc3 engine. I still get this odd feeling that wasnt the case for dots though >.>
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For remakes, how about we make a poll about which girl that so sad/broken/just plain badly designed/suffered from overused meme (in bad way) that deserved for remake?
As for Renko....is it fine to change her skill? Also its hard to suggest skills to match her canon-like since we never even saw her fight or w/e
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The WC3 engine internally uses a skewed distribution for the calculation of proc chances yes, but DotS and most custom maps that trigger such effects do not use WC3's engine's internal calculations and rely instead on simple random number generators. Deciding whether to trigger critical strikes with the damage system or whether to just use WC3's skills requires an overview of the map's requirements. I can't recall offhand what the big limitations of WC3's skills are anymore, but I do remember that DotS' critical strikes are triggered because they wanted skills to crit too. -.-;;
Edit: Renko's current skills have little or nothing to do with her whole "super physicist" character beyond her skills' names. It's a fun game mechanic to have her last skill affect the effect of her current one though.
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The thing I know about WC3 is that orb effects don't stack. Also, apparently stuff like multi-shot, glaive, etc. are orb effects or something, because orb effects will mess them up.
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Don't use internal wc3 engine for crits please.
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7993
Basically, if I run off and hit a few creeps for a bit without critting, I'll stop and then gank. Gives me a higher crit% for every hit until I crit. Many maps swapped to a triggered crit system for this reason.
As for things like orb effects, it's up to you if you want to make them stackable or not. If you balance the map based on the facts that all effects can stack with each other, it should be fine I think.
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Its honestly there to prevent too little or too much of something happening. Id rather have that then getting crit 5x in a row or getting permabashed just because of pure luck. Its also not like dota and LoL already dont do this.
i also feel like throwing out an idea for meiling, i didnt read the previous one submitted so :V
bleh dular has already a good idea on the skill set
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bleh dular has already a good idea on the skill set
Probably 'cuz I'm awesome.
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though one thing i remembered that was annoying was standing behind china and still getting hit by her ult ???
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Updated the alpha map on the bot with...
1. Crit calculations. Each hero should have a roughly 33% chance to crit on autoattack for 2x damage. It uses a very basic skewed distribution for its calculations, like the WC3 engine. I was too sleepy to go compute a list of Poisson probabilities for it. That'll come next time, which should smooth out proc rates much better. No, this is not a permanent thing.
2. Sakuya has the moon glaive ability for testing. Well, now I know more stuff about that skill. It needs to be tweaked otherwise she'd farm a tact in 10 minutes easy.
3. Power items now last for 15 seconds (or was it 20...) and adds 1 damage (up to 20) and heals 25 hp for str heros, 30 mp for int heros and gives a 15s bloodlust on agi heros (minor increase in attack speed and movement speed).
4. Item placeholders are now in. I've also put in a healing salve for kicks, and wards for testing ward spots.
5. Tweaked creep scaling and tower armour.
6. Player death broadcasts should now be on. Assist gold is now enabled (I think it's set at 100).
7. A whole lot of system changes, including denies now giving xp, killing a unit outside of the standard 1000 exp range now also gives xp, a lightning effects system (not used by anything yet), changed the way neutral creep camps were linked so that it no longer requires both camps to be empty before it picks another creep group to spawn, etc...
8. Marisa has 800 movespeed. Totally needs a race between 800 movespeed Marisa and 522 movespeed Reimu. Somehow they don't feel that different. :/
Next up, I'll probably add in the rune system, and a skill or two to test how robust this damage detect system is. It does not use the standard poison arrow debuff to differentiate between autoattacks and skills.
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Rawr: Actually, permabashing happened a lot more often with wc3 bash system. Since the game evens out the bash rates fairly evenly, there was a higher chance of it happening just as the the first stun ended, assuming you had enough attack speed.
Aph: If I remember correctly, wc3 can't handle movespeeds past 522 at all. I might be wrong though, but if Marisa and Reimu are moving similar speeds like you suggested, then there's definitely some sort of hard cap in the engine.
As far as passive crits for all heroes, I'm fairly iffy in general about it. Feels like an annoying way to disrupt last hitting to me.
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Yeah the hard cap for movement speed is 522, but I'm not using WC3's engine to handle movement beyond 522 :x
Since I can't really run both heros side by side even with kLoader, I resorted to timing their runs across the diagonals of a single screen. Marisa does indeed move quite a lot faster than Reimu, but not quite 1.6x the speed. Hm. I wonder if there's some flaw in the way I triggered it.
Screenie:
(http://i46.tinypic.com/16kqhyw.jpg)
Eh no, the passive crit for the heros is just for testing the calculation method now. It's definitely not going to be a skill for everyone o.O
Seems like movement speeds can go up to approximately 1400 without bugging out, though it might look a bit jerky. The timer frequency needs to be increased to retain smoothness, but I don't really expect movespeeds beyond 800 for any extended period of time, so I'll leave it for now and investigate the accuracy of my movespeed system later.
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Well, for special movement, movement speed can exceed 522, but that is usually the cap. I know Spirit Breaker's charge exceeds 522 movement speed, so there's that. Storm Spirit's Ball Lightning or whatever its called also exceeds 522, but I am unsure if that counts as actual movement.
I assume movement speeds that exceed 522 are for dash type skills(leap, charge, etc.) or is there a skill that you plan to implement that will allow manual movement of greater than 522 movement speed?
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It's a system to effectively give units movespeed > 522 when they move manually. We think we have worked out why there's the slight error, but not how to fix it. There are problems no matter which method is chosen. =(
SB technically doesn't count as moving over 522 either, since his movement is completely triggered until he hits the target or is given another order. So grabbing the code from Dota won't help.
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Yeah, that's because the WC3 engine is this inaccurate:
(http://i49.tinypic.com/121cvgm.jpg)
:/
As for skills that might allow movespeed beyond 522, there are a few heros that may need it, if only temporarily, e.g. Aya. It wasn't that complicated an idea, so I wrote the thing in the morning, though I didn't know that rounding errors would cause that sort of deviation. It's easier to fix when I have an idea of what the max movespeed possible in the map will be, then I can calibrate the scaling factor properly to account for the rounding errors. I've put in a rough scaling factor to make the thing more accurate for movespeeds in the 522-800 range.
Update: Rune system put in. Rune refresh interval is set to 20s for now and there are only 3 effects - invis, illusion and rejuvenation. Will change the values later on. This stuff is now all on the alpha map on the bot. Marisa's illusions will not have her 750 movespeed (reduced it on a whim) at the moment, though I can't decide at the moment if giving such movespeeds to illusions would be a good idea. I'll probably make it an option in the system. Hmm.
522 ms feels damn slow after running around the map with 750. I'm going to die testing other characters later at this rate...
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Yeah, remember character start with 270 to 330ish speed, not 522... That's reserved for very fast characters.
I would like to suggest a new moveset for Tenshi.
Earthquake - Cast this, after 5 seconds, AoE damage/slow.
Sword of Divine Justice - same as before.
State of Enlightenment - bonus armor and hp regen.
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody(ultimate) - changes weather to Aurora for 10 seconds, only Tenshi benefits, Aurora weather cannot be changed or cancelled. Not quite sure what bonuses I want to see though.
Some suggestions for Sakuya, unsure about the names though:
Clock Up - For 10 seconds, gives her an aura(700 range) that improves attack and movement speed of all allied units.
Clock Down - For 10 seconds, gives her an aura(700 range) that decreases the attack and movement speed of all enemy units.
Misdirection - Throws daggers for damage and teleports backwards.
Luna Dial - Throws a clock(range 400) at target location, creates a time stop sphere at that location(same effect as Void's ultimate).
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522 would be almost too fast for a map of this size anyway. Generally, movement at > 522 speeds will be temporary speed boosts from skills or items.
Sakuya's done already though.
Q: Essentially the same, though perhaps longer range. Her innate skill (so far the only one with an innate that makes sense) will be a toggle between adding a stun to her Q skill at the expense of some of its damage, e.g. having a long ranged knife throw that does 350 damage at max level, or doing 250 damage with a 2.5s stun, all numbers tentative.
W: Moon glaive skill. Allows her normal attack to bounce, and her Q skill knife to penetrate 1/2/3/4 targets.
E: Blink -> Longer range blink -> Double blink with same effective range -> Double blink with same effective range with invis on the 2nd blink, but loses the aoe damage on the 2nd blink.
R: Chronosphere skill. Has the ability to freeze projectiles like Gungnir.
Basically meant to harass / disrupt farming or assist in ganking.
Update: Spent the day tweaking the crit system. I think I have it at reasonable efficiency now. Now just to flesh out the movement speed system into a full blown one to replace WC3's wonky one.
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Moon glaive skill. Allows her normal attack to bounce, and her Q skill knife to penetrate 1/2/3/4 targets.
I suggest calling this skill Luminous Ricochete.
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Q: Essentially the same, though perhaps longer range. Her innate skill (so far the only one with an innate that makes sense) will be a toggle between adding a stun to her Q skill at the expense of some of its damage, e.g. having a long ranged knife throw that does 350 damage at max level, or doing 250 damage with a 2.5s stun, all numbers tentative.
W: Moon glaive skill. Allows her normal attack to bounce, and her Q skill knife to penetrate 1/2/3/4 targets.
so her q doesnt penetrate enemies like her old one? also should probably add some kind of damage reduction to the bounces
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Yeah, the names are...
F (Innate): Watch "Lunar Dial"
Q: Wound Sign "Inscribed Red Soul"
W: Speed Sign "Luminous Ricochet"
E: Strange Art "Misdirection"
R: "Sakuya's World"
I was just writing the descriptions of her skills off the top of my head. She was either the 2nd or 3rd hero that I thought about altering way back when I started on this (The first was Mokou, when I started on another map, then the other one was Rumia whom I though all along was rather silly in the original).
Her Q skill will not penetrate to begin with, though that may change depending once I see how the skill plays out in laning. It may be possible that it's too easy to use creeps to block her knives, but taking either W or E would then allow her to either circumvent that via penetration or blinking in or out of the proper position to fling it.
And yeah, there's a 0.75x damage reduction per subsequent bounce (it will bounce 4 times, i.e. strike 5 targets at max level i think.)
Update: The API is now in the original post. I will update that as and when I tweak various systems around, but the functions in there will not change anymore without good reason, e.g. some design flaw. Evasion is currently not on the list of skills handled by the bonus attributes system because I'm changing the way it's implemented in a while - it's currently a toss-up between using the damage system to trigger that (drawback: unable to change the sound effect for an evaded attack), or using a hidden spellbook with various evasion skills at different percentages. The old way was done via 2 skills, one 100 level skill with 0-99% evasion and a 2 level skill with 0 and 100% evasion. Obviously this goes against my wish to NOT use 100 level skills, or actually any skills that have more than 4 levels, because each such skill drastically increases the load time of the map (the SLK optimizer cannot work on skills with more than 4 levels).
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Her Q skill will not penetrate to begin with, though that may change depending once I see how the skill plays out in laning. It may be possible that it's too easy to use creeps to block her knives, but taking either W or E would then allow her to either circumvent that via penetration or blinking in or out of the proper position to fling it.
it would be like a super fast mirana arrow :V
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I expect a ZA WARUDO soundclip to be played when Sakuya uses her WARUDO
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There will probably be sound clips yes. I've written a library for the map that plays sounds properly now, but a lot of the soundbites from the soku voice mod make the map sound like one big h-game. Gotta be selective about this. I'm also testing out swapping out unit responses with the voices from that mod, but I suspect a proper, non-spammy solution to making unit responses for the girls will have to be triggered. This part is slow-going and low priority for now - the files in the voice mod aren't named after the girls :/
On another side update, besides sorting through the above sound files (and torchlighting), this weekend has mostly been spent optimizing various systems (conversion to linked lists vs arrays) and implementing a priority trigger queue for the damage system that runs before any damage modification or display. It's so, so friggin' useful.
Hmm, there's a 75 faith, 900s cooldown, instant team recall at the shrine now (old Kaguya's HME skill). Gotta weigh that against the option of a total of 25 faith + however much gold it costs for a full team buyback.
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Hmm, there's a 75 faith, 900s cooldown, instant team recall at the shrine now (old Kaguya's HME skill). Gotta weigh that against the option of a total of 25 faith + however much gold it costs for a full team buyback.
Just give it a 6 second cast time and all will be 'kay.
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After yesterday's testing of Sakuya's spells and the time stop effect, I tweaked things around a bit.
(http://i47.tinypic.com/17aknp.jpg)
Sakuya's World now stops any projectile entering the field for its duration instead of just stopping them at cast time. Oh she's supposed to fire only 1 knife for her Q skill, but it's set to 9 here for the testing of projectile recycling.
(http://i50.tinypic.com/34fcrkh.jpg)
After the spell, they will then continue on their way.
It still doesn't do any damage though, since I didn't see the need for it to.
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Cool, I did not know that you can make it so that projectiles stop until hitting the time stop radius.
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It's something that I added to my projectile system. It can slow projectiles too.
Today I learn that pausing a unit "deregisters" it from many of WC3's engine's subsystems. Combined with a crude projectile recycling system, I can eliminate even that 7 fps drop from firing 100 knives simultaneously.
(http://i47.tinypic.com/4fyg6d.jpg)
In comparison, benchmarking this effect with one of the more established projectile systems on the net still netted me the same 7 fps drop while this has all of 0 fps drop O_O This can actually go up to 200+ projectiles simultaneously, on the same screen, before a noticeable fps drop registers. O_O
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Time for ALL the special effects?
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Actually, next up on the testing menu is the status effect system. Specifically, I need to check that the debuff immunity / duration reduction systems work as intended. Gonna need someone to help fling knives at Reimu for the next test. Heh.
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Is it me or do the models look much... more... higher quality?
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The map uses the current high-poly models. I'm thinking of changing that back to the low-poly ones to remove the need for the model pack. Or not. I don't know yet. It's taking me forever to look for suitable sound files.
As for what's happening over the past month, I'm testing the map with a custom-made AI script whenever I get the chance. A copy of the map has also been handed over to the chinese team who'll be using it to remake the chinese map as well. Actually some of them volunteered to help out with the english map as well. Hmmm.
The rest of the time was spent trying NOT to put in Hellsing characters since I've been catching up on the Hellsing OVA in anticipation of the final episode. It's a hard fight.
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Heh.
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New game mode (just an idea for now): FM
No shrine creeps, no neutral creeps, towers do not attack but still offer true sight.
Players start at max level, with a specified amount of gold (say, a default of 12k).
After a specified time (say, 40 seconds), the round starts and players are teleported to their outermost tower. In the first round, this means that the side lanes are sealed off, although the jungle is still accessible. Fountains are not accessible once the round starts.
To score a point, wipe the opposing team out. If the round time runs out without any team being wiped out, the team that did more damage collectively scores the point. Each point scored destroys the opposing team's outermost tower. If a player is the only one surviving in his team, he will be revealed to the opposing team after 20 seconds.
Once the round time runs out, players are teleported back to their fountain and dead heros are revived. Items are removed and gold is given again.
Ok, I'll admit this idea came to mind after playing CS:GO. :\
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Reimu, Marisa, Sakuya, Koakuma, Rumia, Flandre and Youmu are more or less completed, though Koakuma, Rumia and Flandre have no voices :/
Item stats are also finally in, though majority of the items are still placeholders till I can think of more mystical names to suit the game (e.g. Hakurei Shrine Talisman sounds way better than Red Llama).... and I now have a growing dislike of large databases. :\
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though Koakuma, Rumia and Flandre have no voices :/
dont worry dawg i got these, just tell me what to say
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Lol if Rinnosuke ever makes it into the map as a character, I'll know who to look for for voices :3
I've realized that the reason why almost every special effect in the original map was made as either a dummy unit or a dummy skill instead just being handled as a special effect, is because the artists didn't bother to add a death animation to all the effects. This meant that destroying special effects the usual way left the effects standing still for a good 5 seconds after they were supposed to have been removed. But cramming the map with dummy units and skills makes it take a friggin' long time to load, whether in WC3 or the World Editor :/ I'm currently in the process of fixing this (discovered this when trying to figure out why Marisa's Master Spark lingered behind for such a long time after the spell ended, a problem not found in the original map because the original Master Spark created 2 dummy units instead of 1 special effect).
Edit: I just got started on writing Cirno's skills according to Dormio's suggestion, and I'm like... what?
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Well, hi.
I'm new in this forum but not in DotS, I was planing do something like you, the current DotS is just too unbalanced an LOLish, actually i was using a template from Dota and I created my own girls in the map, maybe I'm not the best but I'm interested in work with you, maybe we can talk or something, but I still don't understand 100% this forum :V
Here I will put some images from my own DotS :derp:
(http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7260/wc3scrnshot112012021528.jpg)
(http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3164/wc3scrnshot112012021541.jpg)
(http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/9485/wc3scrnshot112012021724.jpg)
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4884/wc3scrnshot112012021643.jpg)
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Well, hi.
I'm new in this forum but not in DotS, I was planing do something like you, the current DotS is just too unbalanced an LOLish, actually i was using a template from Dota and I created my own girls in the map, maybe I'm not the best but I'm interested in work with you, maybe we can talk or something, but I still don't understand 100% this forum :V
Here I will put some images from my own DotS :derp:
Ahh PM-ed you.
Edit: Sent another PM in reply to your mail. Hmm, you can also find me on IRC at http://webchat.ppirc.net/?channels=dots-meido (just type in your nick). My nick's either SiG or ApharmdB there (depends on which computer I'm logged into).
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Ahh PM-ed you.
Edit: Sent another PM in reply to your mail. Hmm, you can also find me on IRC at http://webchat.ppirc.net/?channels=dots-meido (just type in your nick). My nick's either SiG or ApharmdB there (depends on which computer I'm logged into).
I'm on IRC right now, log in it and we can talk :P
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I'm on IRC right now, log in it and we can talk :P
Um check your PM...
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Your project looks great. I'll be looking forward to when it comes to fruition...
I haven't seen any suggestions for Patchouli yet, so I'm gonna submit mine, if you do not mind.
LoL player here~
No innates/passives, yes?
Patchouli Knowledge
Intended roles: Nuker, Assist
I suppose what you people call in DoTA the equivalent of an Ability Power Carry in League of Legends is an INT hero, yes? I am not so good with this numbers, thus the stats will also be "Editing in Progress." Or perhaps you could just find some ideas in what I suggest you and come up with your own stats.
I do not know how you want to sort these spells/skills, cause Patchouli, with her diverse range of spells, definitely needs more spells. My suggestion would be that she gets 3 "1-element" spells which are all AoE, and if you cast a 1-element spell, say, Fire Sign "Ring of Agni", and during its duration, you cast, say, Water Sign "Buried in Lake" on where the area where "Ring of Agni" is active, you create a synthesis spell on the spot, and the AoE where "Ring of Agni" is cast on "Buried in Lake" becomes, say, Fire Water Sign "Phlogistic Pillar" and the effect of the spell completely changes into "Phlogistic Pillar"'s effect, and the previous two spells cast upon each other cancels out in effect at the moment where the second spell is cast and the synthesis happens.
The list of spells is long, and perhaps it can suggest a better mechanic to being able to use her elemental spells and synthesis spells [2-element spells] than "Pick 3 elements, and an Ultimate Element".
[SECTION BELOW EDITING IN PROGRESS}
Fire Sign "Ring of Agni"
(Base Damage): 75/125/175/205/250 [Agni]
Cooldown: 9/8/7/7/7
Patchouli conjures the powers of Fire and draws a rune under her feet, channeling power to her hands.. All units with 700 range of Patchouli take 50/100/100/100/100 Magic Damage. All units within 250 range of Patchouli while she is channeling power are stunned for 1.5 seconds. Patchouli then directs the Ring of Agni at an area, dealing 75/125/175/205/250 damage to all enemies (The circle is about 700 range wide. I think.)
Cast/Channel time: 0.5 seconds.
Water Sign "Bury in Lake"
[Base Damage]: 55/90/125/160/185
Cooldown: 13/12/11/10/10
Patchouli conjures a rune at a targeted area, slowing all enemies within the area for 25%/35%/40%/50%/50% of their movement speed [Applied debuff, per 0.1 seconds reapply debuff, debuff lasting 0.2 seconds each time it is applied], and dealt 10/10/30/30/40 magic damage per second. Any enemies that stays in the targeted area for 4 seconds are buried by a torrent of water, dealing 55/90/125/160/185 magic damage.
Area of rune: 1200
Speed Debuff is reapplied every 0.1 seconds. Speed Debuff lasts for 0.2 seconds, and is cancelled by a re-apply. Call it what you want.
Earth Sign "Trilithon Shake"
Base Damage: 75/100/125/150/160
Cooldown: 10/9/8/7/6
Patchouli channels the power of the Earth to a magic circle, then creates pillars of stone and collapses them on enemies in the circle 1 second later, dealing 75/100/125/150/160 PHYSICAL DAMAGE to all enemies in the circle. All enemies that are hit have their Armor and Magic Resistance lowered by 40%.
Magic Circle Area: 600
Still scales on INT. But deals Physical Damage.
Metal Sign "Autumn Blades"
Base Damage: 30/50/80/100/125
Cooldown: 7/6/5/4/4
Patchouli conjures a sawblade that slices all enemies within its range for 30/50/80/100/125 PHYSICAL DAMAGE over 4 seconds. An enemy that is sliced by the sawblade bleeds, taking 10/15/17/20/20 Magic Damage every second for 5 seconds, also revealing their location.
Area of Sawblade: 500
Debuff reapplied every 0.1 seconds to enemies that have touched the sawblade.
Wood Sign "Green Storm"
Base Damage: 40/50/70/90/110
Cooldown: 10/10/10/10/10
Patchouli creates a rune on the ground, then fires a burst of wind from the rune, pushing back enemies and dealing 40/50/70/90/110 damage. The enemy is then slowed for 5 seconds. The area that the rune occupies is fraught with strong winds, pushing back all enemies that moves into the circle.
If "Ring of Agni" is cast over Water Sign "Buried in Lake" or vice versa, Phlogistic Pillar will be activated.
[Then again, Phlogistic Pillar can also be a standalone skill, if this system cannot work.]
Fire Water Sign "Phlogistic Pillar"
Cooldown: [Will be used as long as the two spells are cast over each other, either "Buried in Lake" over "Ring of Agni", or vice versa.
Cooldown [Independent skill, if the above mechanic cannot work]: 15/13/12/10/9
Damage [Independent]: 75/100/110/150/200
Damage [Synthesis Mechanic]: 125/175/215/245/270 (Scales based on Ring of Angi. Buried in Lake's level does not affect damage of this spell)
Slow [Independent]: 25%/30%/35%/35%/40%
A synthesis of Fire and Water. Patchouli creates a water rune on the ground and channels magical energies to the rune for 1 second, slowing all enemies within the rune, then creates an impassable wall of explosions from the rune by igniting it with fire magic, pushing back and stunning all enemies caught within the explosion for 4 seconds.
Area of water rune [If independent]: 800
Area if synthesized: 700
Earth Metal Sign "Emerald Megalith"
Base Damage: 75/100/125/150/170
Cooldown: 15/12/11/10/9/8
Fusing Earth with Metal, Patchouli creates a city of Emerald that erupts from the ground, dealing 75/100/125/150/170 Magic Damage and knocks up the enemy for 1.5 seconds. All allies that stand within the area of the spell gain Armor [You decide on the value, I am not good with DoTA]. All enemies are then slowed for 3 seconds.
Metal Water Sign "Mercury Posion"
Cooldown: 10/9/8/7/7
Synthesizing Metal and Water, Patchouli poisons all enemies in range with Mercury, slowing them by 70% for 6 seconds, dealing 15/30/45/50/60 damage per second.
Delay: 2 seconds.
.
.
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E: Moon Sign "Silent Selene"/Sun Moon Sign "Royal Diamond Ring"
Base Damage [Silent Selene]: 75/125/150/160/190
Base Damage [Royal Diamond Ring]: 150/175/200/230/250
Cooldown: 12/10/7/5/5
[Silent Selene] Drawing on the powers of the moon, Patchouli draws a magic circle around her, slowing all units within the circle [500 range]. She then fires lasers, dealing 75/125/150/160/190 damage per second to units in the magic circle. Patchouli is immune to magic damage during this spell.
Cast time: 1 second
Lasts for: 4 seconds.
[Royal Diamond Ring--Only usable during Scorching Sun or Sunny]
Patchouli draws on the powers of the Sun and Moon, summoning a lot of lasers to attack all units within 700 range of Patchouli, damaging them for 150/175/200/230/250 magic damage per second. Friendly Fire.
Cast time: 1.5 seconds
Duration: 5 seconds
R: Sun Sign "Royal Flare"/Metal Wood Water Fire Earth Sign "Philosopher's Stone"
Base Damage [Royal Flare]: 250/500/600
Base Damage [Philosopher's Stone]: 0/0/0
Cooldown: 120/105/99
[Royal Flare] Patchouli draws a circle beneath her and fills the stage with fire, dealing 250/500/600 magic damage to all enemy girls and reveals their positions.
Cast Time: 5 seconds.
Duration: 5 seconds, wherein Patchouli has no protection from enemy attacks. The animation lasts for 5 seconds, the damage is not DPS.
Range: Global
[Philosopher's Stone--only usable when Calm]
Patchouli taps into the five elements, creating the Philosopher's Stone. Five crystals each representing an element surround Patchouli. Patchouli's spells deal bonus 25% damage to enemies, and global cooldown of all her other spells other than Philosopher's Stone is reduced by 5 seconds during the duration of this spell. All enemies within 250 range take 100 magic damage per second.
Cast time: 5 seconds
Duration: 25 seconds
I know I am not that good at this, but yeah. Just to input an idea on what I think Patchouli can be like. I do not want to limit her to only spells that are of one element, nor only synthesis spells. I suppose this is the mix I came up with.
She is completely AoE. Though Ring of Agni, I suppose it could be a targeted spell that deals splash damage.
I am bad with the balance, I know...
Well, just see if these ideas can help.
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Aph had his own plans for Patchy iirc.
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Aph had his own plans for Patchy iirc.
Just suggesting. No harm done, and if he doesn't use it, I'm fine too.
Take it as reference material or something.
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Ohh I do already have plans for Patchy (and she's like... half done already) but don't expect to see her in the initial release. She and Alice are the two heros that I work on randomly whenever I have some time to write a spell but not enough time to make a complete spell set for a hero. She will not use the "pick 3 elements and a major element" system from current DotS. Let's just say that she'll be more similar to DotA's Invoker for now. Although... after having another player from the Chinese team test out the system, apparently there're people who prefer the old "pick 3 elements" mechanic. So..... ~(o.o)~?
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Although... after having another player from the Chinese team test out the system, apparently there're people who prefer the old "pick 3 elements" mechanic. So..... ~(o.o)~?
So... screw those people! They're losers!
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So... screw those people! They're losers!
^ This
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Ohh I do already have plans for Patchy (and she's like... half done already) but don't expect to see her in the initial release. She and Alice are the two heros that I work on randomly whenever I have some time to write a spell but not enough time to make a complete spell set for a hero. She will not use the "pick 3 elements and a major element" system from current DotS. Let's just say that she'll be more similar to DotA's Invoker for now. Although... after having another player from the Chinese team test out the system, apparently there're people who prefer the old "pick 3 elements" mechanic. So..... ~(o.o)~?
Well, sir, you have already done a great deal trying to remake them, thus you should get the honor to pick. Though I seriously hate them treating Silent Selene and Royal Flare like ultimates, cause Sun Moon Sign "Royal Diamond Ring" is supposed to be a better version. Also, I think Metal Wood Water Fire Earth Sign "Philosopher's Stone" has a lot of potential. They need a lot more love than that.
You decide, or maybe just hold a poll. Cause "Pick 3 elements" to me sounds stupid. However, it is impossible to incorporate 7 skills just for Patchy...
Alice sounds very interesting, with doll placements, I'd imagine her a scout/bush checker.
I guess I'll just leave my ideas for Patch alone, and you just see what use you have of them. Yeah.
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Although... after having another player from the Chinese team test out the system, apparently there're people who prefer the old "pick 3 elements" mechanic. So..... ~(o.o)~?
I find the idea of the picking 3 elements and 1 major element to be innovative and matches well with her character. I thought Patchouli was very interesting when she was released in DoTS.
Patchouli is the one week wizard and her hobby is to use spells dependant on which day of the week it is.
Using Invoker style spell pattern also sounds pretty cool. When you say Invoker, you mean the new one with 9 spells right?
An idea I have for Patchouli is that maybe change her ultimate accordingly to the day/night cycle. Day time, Royal Flare, night time Silent Selene. Royal Flare can do damage + burn afterdamage and Silent Selene silences.
Though I seriously hate them treating Silent Selene and Royal Flare like ultimates
I have to disagree. This is because they are ultimates. Patchouli uses this on her good day(EoSD extra) and is one of her ultimate cards in the fighting games.
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I find the idea of the picking 3 elements and 1 major element to be innovative and matches well with her character. I thought Patchouli was very interesting when she was released in DoTS.
Patchouli is the one week wizard and her hobby is to use spells dependant on which day of the week it is.
Using Invoker style spell pattern also sounds pretty cool. When you say Invoker, you mean the new one with 9 spells right?
An idea I have for Patchouli is that maybe change her ultimate accordingly to the day/night cycle. Day time, Royal Flare, night time Silent Selene. Royal Flare can do damage + burn afterdamage and Silent Selene silences.
I have to disagree. This is because they are ultimates. Patchouli uses this on her good day(EoSD extra) and is one of her ultimate cards in the fighting games.
But if there is a higher level, like Royal Diamond Ring...
Well, I tried suggesting her spells change depending on the weather, but...
Silent Selene, I think, should be a sort of stun/silence.
As for Royal Flare, Global Ultimate that deals high damage to enemy Touhous only.. And dispels fog of war, allowing sight to enemy Touhous.
Taking a look at invoker... using a certain "base spell" a certain number of times in a certain combination results in a spell being casted, huh. Looks cool.
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::)
Since just posting that would probably constitute spamming, I'll just add that I absolutely abhorred the system for Patchouloli wherein you chose three elements to play with.
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Touhou canon powers do not have to be strictly applied to fangames. Get over this idea and dev becomes a crapton easier.
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Touhou canon powers do not have to be strictly applied to fangames. Get over this idea and dev becomes a crapton easier.
Well, Patchouli's selling point is diversity in spells. Building her Invoker style [from what I read, I don't play DoTA], or in some style where basic spells like "Bury in Lake" and "Agni Radiance/Ring of Agni" constitute to synthesis spells would be just "right".
Though I think the problem is to what her Ultimate would be, some "choose an element, get Silent Selene/Royal Flare", something affected by weather, like "Scorching Sun/Sunny = Royal Flare, and Drizzle/Whatevernot = Silent Selene, and something else = Philosopher's Stone" would be interesting. Or changes according to health, with Royal Flare being some sort of high damage desperation attack on low health, and Silent Selene being a high utility, Ultimate grade-damage attack. Cause her ultimate isn't really decidable, with her having Royal Flare, Silent Selene, Philosopher's Stone and Royal Diamond Ring.
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Ultimates are spells that kill the enemy in one hit/swing a teamfight/make you unstoppable. All things that would encourage the enemy to run the heck away. No part of this definition cares about what the spell is called or how it has to make sense to anyone's perception of a character's background.
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Ultimates are spells that kill the enemy in one hit/swing a teamfight/make you unstoppable.
::) (http://www.playdota.com/heroes/windrunner)
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Ultimates are spells that kill the enemy in one hit/swing a teamfight/make you unstoppable. All things that would encourage the enemy to run the heck away. No part of this definition cares about what the spell is called or how it has to make sense to anyone's perception of a character's background.
All wrong. Giving it a special touch is what makes it better than just a win button.
Also, have you never seen ultimates that are pure utility?
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You're not in much of a position to dispute when you admit that you don't play DotA. The teamfight swinging kinds of ultimates are the utility ones.
This special touch that you want on a skill is what? Show an example because in making skills, sometimes the only thing that's needed to make one skill different from another is just the spell animation.
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You're not in much of a position to dispute when you admit that you don't play DotA. The teamfight swinging kinds of ultimates are the utility ones.
This special touch that you want on a skill is what? Show an example because in making skills, sometimes the only thing that's needed to make one skill different from another is just the spell animation.
And just cause I do not play a particular RTS I have no position to rebut. Well done.
For a start, not all ultimates are all about damage. What I have seen from your argument, is mostly talking about damage and one-hit kills. An ultimate can be a wall that completely stops an enemy, can also be an ultimate which applies heavy CCs, does not necessarily NEED damage. Heck, an ultimate that stuns the enemy for 7 seconds while dealing only around 150 damage is fine. So, there. Just cause I play LOL doesn't mean I do not understand the definitions, that you. RTS, RTS all the same.
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Dunno if you've done your research but the fact that the first DotS was too much like LoL is the reason why it's getting remade. The background that your suggestions come from is exactly what we didn't like about the direction the game took.
Not all ultimates are about damage, I agree. DotA has several of those. As long as they are mechanically geared towards giving your hero a greater contribution ability, it can be a worthwhile ultimate.
You still haven't shown me what you meant by this special touch that a skill needs to have.
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I don't get the point of this entire argument. That is to say, I don't think that anything of value will be gained from continuing this particular conversation.
Like, what is either side trying to say? Pesco's just saying that the suggestions for Patchouloli's ult are disagreeable to him, no?
Then what is with this argument involving vague terms on what an ultimate ability should entail?
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Oh. Wait. Now I get where this argument is heading.
Sorry for the outburst earlier on.
I was simply saying, just giving it something special.
For example, if Patchouli had an Ultimate that kept changing between Silent Selene and Royal Flare depending on the weather, with different effects, it would give her additional diversity and options, yes? Also, it would make weather choosing and activation more strategic to go I'm sync with the effects.
At least that is what I think. Though I do apologize that I screwed up and did not understand you earlier on.
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Even if you wanted to give Patchouloli some lore-based flair, why would her abilities be affected by the weather?
That doesn't fit the aforementioned lore, you know.
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Even if you wanted to give Patchouloli some lore-based flair, why would her abilities be affected by the weather?
That doesn't fit the aforementioned lore, you know.
She is able to draw on surrounding elements, yes?
Thus for, say, Royal Flare, Patchouli draws on the element of the Sun to deliver a gigantic burst of fire, dealing damage, etc., etc.
At least that was what I was thinking. If the devs really do not have time, and think a fixed element selection would do, I am fine. Just saying.
In her lore, they say she is able to draw on the surroundings' elements, using very little magical energy to perform a powerful spell. So, would Scorching Sun count as a surrounding element that can be drawn on?
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But it's not the weather that affects her. ::)
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But it's not the weather that affects her. ::)
Buut she could steal draw power from that, right?
If she could draw on the surroundings' power, which would be filling the whole stage... which is a lot of that element she wants to draw on, theoretically, it would make her spells stronger with more element to draw power from, yes?
So, let's say, the default Ultimate skill is Silent Selene, which draws power from the moon (And sadly there is no "Imperishable Night/Full Moon" weather), and once there is Scorching Sun or Sunny weather, the Ultimate changes to Royal Flare?
Also, I suppose, balance the two Ultimates out, with each of them, although under 1 skill button, that changes skill with the weather. Give each ultimate a redeeming quality to use with different situations. That is what I am thinking, though the final decision still lies on Aph. I am just suggesting, that is all.
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Ehh weather would more likely affect Tenshi than Patchouli given what she did during SWR. Patchouli just happens to love organizing and naming her spellcards according to the different elements represented in the days of the Japanese calendar week. Besides, she wouldn't be much of a magician if she could only cast Royal Flare when it's sunny. I mean, magic's supposed to be... magical. Like, "oh it's dark? Let me blind your entire world with this love-coloured beamu spam." The point of Patchouli is that she loves combining her spells, which is exactly what the Invoker mechanic from DotA does. With this mechanic, it's harder to cast spells since you have to know what elements to combine to form Royal Flare or Silent Selene or Royal Diamond Ring. It also makes it so that you have to plan which spell you wish to cast in advance because combining spells has a cooldown, so there's no possibility of casting Silent Selene immediately after Royal Flare. It's another way of balancing out the mechanic instead of the usual "increase mana cost" or "decrease damage" or "change debuff effect" solution.
Edit: I'm in no way suggesting that I don't want suggestions though, although they ought to be practical at least? (*ahem* Dat Cirno, wth? >.<). Even if some skills won't be used for the characters they're suggested for, the mechanic might be fun enough to revamp the skill and put it on another character.
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Ehh weather would more likely affect Tenshi than Patchouli given what she did during SWR. Patchouli just happens to love organizing and naming her spellcards according to the different elements represented in the days of the Japanese calendar week. Besides, she wouldn't be much of a magician if she could only cast Royal Flare when it's sunny. I mean, magic's supposed to be... magical. Like, "oh it's dark? Let me blind your entire world with this love-coloured beamu spam." The point of Patchouli is that she loves combining her spells, which is exactly what the Invoker mechanic from DotA does. With this mechanic, it's harder to cast spells since you have to know what elements to combine to form Royal Flare or Silent Selene or Royal Diamond Ring. It also makes it so that you have to plan which spell you wish to cast in advance because combining spells has a cooldown, so there's no possibility of casting Silent Selene immediately after Royal Flare. It's another way of balancing out the mechanic instead of the usual "increase mana cost" or "decrease damage" or "change debuff effect" solution.
Edit: I'm in no way suggesting that I don't want suggestions though, although they ought to be practical at least? (*ahem* Dat Cirno, wth? >.<). Even if some skills won't be used for the characters they're suggested for, the mechanic might be fun enough to revamp the skill and put it on another character.
Ah well, expected as much. Well, never mind, I will still be expecting your version of Patchouli, seems fun. (I'd imagine the elements have to be "pre-cast", and your Ultimate somehow uses the elements in a spell. Though, what elements can form the Sun and Moon I know not, even though I am well versed in the Chinese elements. Partly the reason I was so hyped up about making Patchouli's movesets.)
I'll see what I can suggest. It is heartening to see someone venture in a project. Least we can do is give them some ideas to help them a little. (I know very little of coding. Though ruby scripts I can handle.)
That Chiruno was probably made to complement her "Idiot" nature, with high strength, high powered spells but all of them with a catch. You talking about the one that kills herself, yes?
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wait are we talking 29? spell invoker or the current invoker? this is very important
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Patchy has different ultimates depending on what day you play her
Monday = 1
Tuesday = 2
Okay jokes aside, feedback from my side says that Invoker!Patchy is a great idea because people don't like using her and only having 3 feasible, useful combinations and also because everyone says Moon Sign sucks.
Yes they much rather hotkey all the way to 20+ spell glory which I also like too
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That Chiruno was probably made to complement her "Idiot" nature, with high strength, high powered spells but all of them with a catch. You talking about the one that kills herself, yes?
Yes, but not because she can kill herself, but because the stats on the skills look way too high even with the downsides and well, I didn't think I'd find that a fun hero to play. That's subjective yes, and whether or not it'll actually work in a game has to be playtested, so unless I can think of other suitable designs that don't cannibalize Letty's role too much, I might just make that thing and see how it goes in the playtests. I've never run this idea by the Chinese team before. Hmm.
wait are we talking 29? spell invoker or the current invoker? this is very important
She has 16 spells allocated. I've made 7. None of those numbers are finalized because canonically she has a craptonne of spells. Maybe instead of combining elements to cast spells, players should be made to write out entire haikus in chat in order to cast them. In Japanese. :3
I wouldn't be surprised if the people who find the invoker-style mechanic better are the ones who play dota and the people who think otherwise don't play dota. Hmmmmmmm. Polling time.
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She has 16 spells allocated. I've made 7. None of those numbers are finalized because canonically she has a craptonne of spells. Maybe instead of combining elements to cast spells, players should be made to write out entire haikus in chat in order to cast them. In Japanese. :3
I wouldn't be surprised if the people who find the invoker-style mechanic better are the ones who play dota and the people who think otherwise don't play dota. Hmmmmmmm. Polling time.
But then again, what other mechanic do we have available for Patchouli other than "Pick Element", and "Cast some pre-spell, then create the spell you want, Invoker-style"?
I hope there's a user manual for her when she does come out. All those spell combinations....
Though I'd be very interested in whether Cirno's "Cold Divinity" spell be used. (Her PoFV LV 4 charge)
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At the end of the day we can really slap any name and animation on anything; I'd take good gameplay and uninspiring skill names over the reverse any day. Invoker Patchouli sounds fine to me.
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@Invoker-Patchouli style play: Yes, Invoker in the game does have a spell list. You type -invokelist or something to see the list. For him, you usually just pick a style of play, like going with Extort and Wex as your two primary level ups or Wex and Quas as your two primary level ups. It depends on if you like Chaos Meteor or Tornado more.
But if there is a higher level, like Royal Diamond Ring...
Well, I tried suggesting her spells change depending on the weather, but...
About this, an ultimate is just a name and if it fits as one of her ultimates in lore that should be fine. Look at Reimu or Marisa's ultimates, they are Fantasy Seal and Master Spark respectively. Nether of them are their highest level spells. For Reimu it would be Musou Tensei(Fantasy Heaven, Dream Heaven or however it is called) and for Marisa, it would be Final Spark.
That means Tenshi doesn't necessarily need Scarlet Weather Rapture as her ultimate, it could be Earth Creation Press, or some other 4 to 5 card move. Same deal with any other character really.
At the end of the day we can really slap any name and animation on anything; I'd take good gameplay and uninspiring skill names over the reverse any day. Invoker Patchouli sounds fine to me.
I would like to see good gameplay as well as good lore design if possible. Something that makes you think, hey it seems like I am using Patchouli and not something that makes you think, this could be generic character B.
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Hi >.< well, actually now I'm working with ApharmdB in the map, and now I'm importing my heroes to the aphar one, here i will put a list from the girls already imported and edit the post every time I add a new girl to the map. Until now the list is:
-Rumia
-Koakuma
However, i just started today, that's why only there are just a few
(I don't know if post the spells from the girls or just keep it in secret, what you think?)
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I'm late to the party and don't know much, so here's an idiot suggestion -
"Today I feel good, I'll show you something special..."
The specific Ultimate Patchy cast's could depend in some way on her maximum health. That way players can game what type of Ulti they'd like (and switch it around mid-game) based on what items/buffs they currently have.
I'd avoid using 'current health' because it'd change too much to plan.