Umineko Mafia - Day 4

[Pesco]

Congrats Sodium, you are now modconfirmed.

##Unvote

What now fellas?

[Sodium]

[rumia]Is that so?[/rumia]

And only Roukan and I are here. There isn't anything to do right now.  :V

And I doubt that's what Alice was intending to do with that line.  :V

... :V(for three times the Pacman face)

[FinnKaenbyou]

Congrats Sodium, you are now modconfirmed.

You assume that scum aren't aware of this. They could easily get equally useless roles in their fakeclaims.

Plus I don't put Alice down as a mod who'd make a slipup like that. >_>

[Pesco]

You never know, Alice had been up for 50 hours and being tired like that might have just made the slip. He even got the vote count wrong again.

[FinnKaenbyou]

So you think that possibility is worth enough to remove any and all suspicion that was on Suwakodium before? (Forget coming up with more names, I'm sticking with Suwakodium.)

[Pesco]

I'm beginning to see his side of the story a bit. But yeah, I still need to be lynched

[FinnKaenbyou]

Well, the day's pretty much over anyway. I have no objections to anyone hammering Pesco at this point in time.

Right now, though, I need to go lie down for a while. I have one hell of a headache, and I doubt this game is helping.

...I don't suppose I could borrow any of those aspirins after you're gone, Pesco?

[Sodium]

What's with MoTK today? The site is really slow for some reason;it makes opening this topic and posting hard. =V

But anyways, the day's practically done, and I doubt there's much left to talk about without a flip or something. I doubt anything can prevent a Pesco lynch at this point anyways.

##Unvote
##Vote Pesco Ham(mer)

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Will update flavour later.

Pesco47 was lynched! They were Natsuhi Ushiromiya, Vanilla Townie (Town Aspirin Addict)

Yes, Roukanken, you may have your aneurism now.

It is now Night 3! You have 24 hours to send your night actions to me and Edible! Good luck!

[Pesco]

     I
     I
     I   <--    OPEN

[FinnKaenbyou]

Yes, Roukanken, you may have your aneurism now.

Many thanks.

*collapses to the floor*

[WHMZakeri]

I'm angry for an entirely different reason.

But I'm still angry.

[?lice Bl?ckb?rn]

Flavour will be up as soon as I finish my final term project (some intermodulation distortion inverse-problem type stuff from DSP), I promise.

Kiro was killed last night! They were Jessica, Vanilla Townie

With 6 people alive, it is now LYLO. You have 1 week from this time to make up your minds on whom to lynch. Good Luck!

[FinnKaenbyou]

Well, not much I can do other than say I don't feel any regret about lynching Pesco for now. Still feel that he was acting notably scummy for pretty much the whole game.

Anyway, since we're at Lylo now, I think it makes sense to start claiming. I'll begin: Genji, Townie Vigilante Who Isn't Allowed To Kill Anything. Seriously, my role PM actually says that if I wanted I could kick everyone's ass but Kinzo told me not to so my hands are tied.

Need to start doing a serious re-read. In particular I get the feeling I still haven't been giving Affinity and Serp enough attention. :/

[FinnKaenbyou]

Okay, took the time to re-read through Aff's posts and now I'm REALLY sure I looked over him too quickly.

70: Calls out NF for his point on Nietz, saying both 'It doesn't make sense' and 'Why didn't you follow through'. Contradiction?[/url]

146: As I already mentioned, jumps onto Donut having made no mention of him in any earlier post. This is where he deceipers a meaning in Dorian's post that I can't see even when I'm actively looking for it. Dorian responds by simply copy/pasting it and saying 'yeah that's what I meant'. T_T
It also contains the single point that Affinity brings up on Pesco before saying later he's fine with his lynch. Pretty keen, isn't it?

165: More praising Dorian G as a god for ONE ORIGINAL POINT. -_-[/url]

177: Claims that Dorian's 2 or 3 posts are worth more than Donut's posting because of said ONE ORIGINAL POINT. Seems to be overreacting a little here.

199: Decries everything NF says, but lets him slide given the lack of a counterclaim. Need to see how he acts D2 before I can analyse fully.
Note the sudden switch on Dorian - oh wait he isn't posting enough, please post more.

234: Tells NF 'Yeah, you really suck' but stil goes after Zak anyway over one point concerning distancing himself from the Donut lynch. Why does he say NF is scummy and then NOT vote him?

245: More RAEG at NF, and only now does he say he's fine with voting him. Why no mention in 234, even as a placeholder vote while he was waiting for Zak to answer him?

286: Gets his answer from Zakeri, and proceeds to be an outright jerk about it. Interesting in that he throws in one single point on Suwakodium at the end of the post, but doesn't bother mentioning anything else that was happening at the time. There wasn't even a mention of Pesco for the entirety of the day - why?

311: Hi, Rou is suspicious for tunneling Pesco, bye. Comments on possible NK actions, which is sort of pointless considering both roles are dead. >_>

321: Oh, wait, it was a prod. That was obviously what it sounded like when you pulled that out and STILL didn't mention Pesco. >_>
Then attacks Kiro for his scumhunting, accusing him of looking at votes and not reasons. Need to reread Kiro to see if this is any way valid.

374: Unvotes me and proceeds to put his vote...nowhere. He spends a good deal of time criticising him but makes no effort to pressure him with a vote. Also backtracks on Dorian, saying that targets like Donut were 'more interesting'. >_>

383: Drops his interrogation of Kiro entirely, giving a few more points to Suwakodium and again insisting that not voting is the right thing to do. Not voting Pesco I understand, but not voting at all?

404 Post Not Found: Trades a few points with Suwakodium, defends himself from Kiro, complains Zak is WIFOMing with circular reasoning. Still thinks that the best course of action is NOT TO VOTE, when he was fine with prodding me for information earlier in the day.

So in general, the main problems I have with Affinity are:
- His strange affection for Dorian/Suwakodium, whom he's made one or two minor points against all game
- His paradoxical behaviour D3 - fine pressure voting me, but then removes it and doesn't want to pressure vote anyone else.

It's sort of 2am over here, and I'm kinda tired. I'll look over Serp tomorrow when I get the chance. -_-

[FinnKaenbyou]

Actually, screw it. Let's get this over with.

76: HEY GUYS, YOU ONLY GET ONE RVS POST. Overreacting much?
Also comes down on Donut for attacking Pesco, and for ignoring the point against Carth. Basically, the same thing Aff was doing against NF and later Donut.

101: After Nuke melts down, proceeds to say 'you're terrible but I don't want to put you to L-1'. In restrospect, why is L-1 such a bad thing to do? It necessitates a claim, but if you're so supicious of him then a claim is exactly what you want. And I doubt any Townie with half a brain cell would quicklynch on DAY FREAKING 1.

AAAAAAAAAGH being made to go to bed because the downstairs neighbours are complaining about being kept up by...the sound of me walking. When I've been sitting at the PC for the last half hour. >_____________> will finish this tomorrow

[Kiro]

Alright Town, Scum have probably been laughing their asses off at all this bullshit we encountered. So mad props to all you remaining Townies if we win this. Go get it done!!!

[Serp]

Alright, I've been holding Zakeri as my secondary or terciary lynch pretty much all game.  Time for a full readthrough.

This is his first serious post of the game.  In it, he says that he thinks Donut is blatantly lying about his voting motives, and that that "might" be scummy.  Follows that with points against several people, but in this post he unvotes and doesn't put that vote on anyone else.  Flighty.

He thinks better of it half an hour later and posts this, voting Pesco and saying that Donut strikes him as Town.

Duels with Nuke here, raising legitimate points against him.  Not too hard to do.

The post here is a complete mess.  What gets me is the way that he brings up a bunch of scummy quotes against Pesco, then suddenly backs off, while saying in the same post that he's not going to make the "mistake of defending Pesco again."  And who does he go after?  The claimed cop.  Am I the only one that sees this as a bad thing on D1?  We had other good cases and little to lose by letting him stick around another day.

He says his vote is effectively on Nuke, but then forgets that later in the post, when he says that he doesn't know where to take his vote.  Says that he's entirely unhappy with the Donut wagon, but fine with lynching Pesco or Nuke.

Here he confirms that he's okay going after the claimed cop, and picks up his habit of defending Dorian Sodium Doridium.

Now, the infamous bandwagon swinging post here.  Note that in voting for Donut, he cites two posts that both happened before he said he was entirely unhappy with the Donut wagon.  This is another really important point.  Inconsistency is not a town tell.  He did a complete 180 on his stance.  He also goes back to defending Pesco.  >_>

A post-hammer post purely to defend Doridium here.

The point of interest here is the kneejerk chainsaw against me.  I think that Zakeri was looking for a way to discredit me, but hadn't come up with anything, but forgot that he hadn't come up with anything when writing this post.

Effectively says here "I have a good reason to vote Serp in my own head, but I'm not going to share it with you."  Admits his own actions were scummy.  Raises a point against Doridium and Affinity, then says it doesn't apply against Doridium.

Here he aims to explain his train of thought.  In so doing, he blatantly mischaracterizes my point against Dorian, points out his own self-contradiction with a weak attempt at justification, and completely backtracks on Affinity.

Back to being anti-Pesco here, now that it's D3.

More defense of Sodium here and here.  He seems to be trying to set up Roukanken for a LyLo lynch.  Also more mischaracterization of me.  He continues to defend Sodium's defense of Dorian for the next few posts.

Scum knows who's Town, so they know that all the cases against people other than themselves are wrong.  Rather than evaluating cases based on how valid they look, Scum only care about getting enough mislynches to win.  Zakeri's flipflopping, especially on Pesco, fits that MO perfectly.  Zakeri's defense of Doridium, more and more as the game went on, makes me think that they're our scumpair.

Now, to respond to Roukanken:

76: HEY GUYS, YOU ONLY GET ONE RVS POST. Overreacting much?

I'm not the one who said you only get one RVS post.  Maybe you're confusing me with Kiro? :V  My point was a valid one - that once you've got something solid to comment on, there's no excuse to just make an "I'm here and here's my clever way of confirming that without drawing too much attention to myself" post.

101: After Nuke melts down, proceeds to say 'you're terrible but I don't want to put you to L-1'. In restrospect, why is L-1 such a bad thing to do? It necessitates a claim, but if you're so supicious of him then a claim is exactly what you want. And I doubt any Townie with half a brain cell would quicklynch on DAY FREAKING 1.

I didn't want to bring him to L-2, to be precise.  Pesco had stated intent to vote him as well, but had not yet done so.  Maybe a bit over-cautious on my part, but I was worried that someone else would bring him to L-1, and that a clueless townie (say, Dorian) would accidentally hammer him.  Or, alternately, that he'd self-hammer.

Also, my roleclaim:  I'm Rosa Ushiromiya, town abusive parent.  I'll review the other cases tomorrow, but I think I'm spot-on with this one. 

[FinnKaenbyou]

I HAVE RETURNED

Anyway, picking up where I left off with Serp:

153: 'Screw it, I'm voting the lurker.'
The problem I have with this move from him is that it just feels...not at all like Serp. Just compare this to his play in Yume Nikki Day 1...it doesn't feel like he'd just go for the easy way out like this. :/

161: Tells everyone 'Stop talking and vote the lurker'. Admittedly the point 'don't lynch Donut unless Pesco is scum' gets him a little credit here, but still, Dorian feels like a cheap target who he doesn't really need to explain. If you don't need to give reasoning on your vote, there's no danger of contradicting yourself.

171: Blah blah blah, Dorian should go burn in hell. This gets really repetitive to read after so long. :V

174: 'Sparing cop without lynching lurker makes no sense'. Rambles on about how the best course of action is (as always) to lynch Dorian and let NF live, seemingly unwilling to accept the possibility that Dorian is a new guy. Why so unwilling to cut him some slack when he looks like he has no idea what the hell he's doing?

178: Posts his 'scumhunting', but half the post is just a tirade about how this game punishes effort. For the record, Serp, how does this logic hold considering this was Dorian's first game here? Unless his teammate told him explicitly 'Don't post', it wouldn't make any sense. Then gives two (very simple and obvious) points against Dorian and says that he's done proving his case. Forgive me for WIFOM, but doesn't it feel a little too easy making a case on Dorian?

202: Donut's giving up and admitting he can't hunt? Eh, Dorian's still worse.
Interesting how his opinion on Donut has changed from 'lynch Pesco first' in 161 to 'lynch Donut first' in 202, as a side note.

208: so yeah my entire case against Dorian was sorta pointless sorry guys
But insists he's going to watch Suwakodium carefully. Unvotes, leaves himself ready to hammer at deadline. (Obviously doesn't get the chance because Donut gets lynched sooner.)

209]http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg43733#msg43733]209: Spends half the post defending his view on Dorian, then throws out suspicions of NF AND Pesco without bothering to vote either. Again insists he's watching Suwakodium.

242: Some criticism of NF, saying 'yeah you probably did get doc'd' and calling him out on WIFOM, but why no vote even for the sake of pressure? Also no mention of Suwakodium.

248: More criticising NF, but insists that he won't bother voting (not even for pressure) until Suwa shows up.

269: Calls Pesco on crumbing, more nagging at NF before FINALLY voting (but only after NF has declared his intention to quit :V), and suddenly declares after a reread of Zak he's willing to agree with Affinity's argument against him. Where the hell did THAT come from!?

285: Half a post of modkill speculation, then unvotes NF because he doesn't want a quicklynch. Note that this entire time he's had nothing to say about Suwakodium.

312: Declares suspicion of Pesco and Zak, still no mention as to why Suwa fell off his scumdar. You can't specify that you're watching a player and then NOT SAY ANYTHING about them, surely.

324: Oh wait, Zak/Pesco makes no sense as a scumpair. Complains of Zak's flighty voting, NO SUWAKODIUM. Seeing a pattern here?

368: FINALLY mentions Suwakodium after being prodded, and says 'I didn't bother saying anything because he's done nothing scummy'. Why did it take him so long to admit he didn't have suspicions of him, and why only NOW after his weird 'don't lynch Pesco based on roleclaim' thing?

389: Declares that he's perfectly fine with the Zak modkill. Consistent, I suppose, but the post doesn't really achieve much besides that.

403: Clarifies his view on Suwakodium - hasn't seen anything scummy out of him, but thinks that Pesco's iffy questions about him are somewhat justifiable.
Calls Zak on WIFOM with Suwa's reactions. Leaves with his vote still on Pesco.

So after this analysis, I'm thinking I really didn't give Affinity the proper time of day in particular. He seems too defensive of Dorian and only has minor issues with Suwakodium, leading me to think potential scumpair. That said Serp could be linked to Affinity as well given his sudden jump on the Zak wagon late D2, or he could've been bussing Dorian on D1 to get cred and make something of a useless buddy but after Suwa showed up he didn't want to bus an active scum...

ASDF this is hard let's just take the easy way out today since Alice gave it the OK

##Vote: No Lynch

I need to be out of the house in about 20 minutes. >_>

Serp Ninja:

Alright, I've been holding Zakeri as my secondary or terciary lynch pretty much all game.

Actually like I just said you pulled him up out of the blue D2 so uh

My point was a valid one - that once you've got something solid to comment on, there's no excuse to just make an "I'm here and here's my clever way of confirming that without drawing too much attention to myself" post.

How solid is 'your response is too serious, RVS is RUINED FOREVER!'?

I didn't want to bring him to L-2, to be precise.  Pesco had stated intent to vote him as well, but had not yet done so.  Maybe a bit over-cautious on my part, but I was worried that someone else would bring him to L-1, and that a clueless townie (say, Dorian) would accidentally hammer him.  Or, alternately, that he'd self-hammer.

You admit that L-2 is awfully nervous, which is one of my points. But why are you okay with Pesco bringing him to L-2?
Plus why is Dorian suddenly a clueless Townie to you? Were you honestly thinking on D1 that he could potentially mess it up as a Townie?

Okay now I REALLY need to go back later to look over other people

[Affinity]

Roleclaim: Dr. Nanjo. I am a townie doc, however, I had zero charges from the get go, so I'm effectively a vanilla townie.

Was mildly busy lately due to school essay, so I'll have to reread a bit.

---

@Roukanken:

I still don't see what is wrong with praising Dorian to further a line of questioning against Serp, but ho well, I can only convince so much.  Also, while I did not acknoledge his bad points in this topic, his bad points were, again, pretty clearly raised by everyone else and thus I don't see why it is a reversal.  The backtrack you cite is imaginary.  And raising an original point is far better than jumping on votes and regurgitating reasoning, that much is certain.  And why am I scummy for being able to understand literature?  It was a valid point to discuss; you're not putting that into consideration.

Same goes to pesco; why bother raising points everyone else has raised?  It was fairly obvious that he wasn't scumhunting by the point of D3.

Reason why I did not vote for NF was because I wanted the day to last longer and was icky about giving him a chance to self-hammer; he did look suicidal after all.

I did not vote pesco for the exact same reason.  Did not vote anyone else because my lynching choice was with him, and you were prodded because your issue was serious; you had nothing on anyone other than pesco at that time.  I could have voted Kiro of course, but it was only his scumhunting techniques I was not satisfied with, which is far more minor.

You are also far too forward in your assumptions that Sodium is scum; you seem to be basing much of your cases against me and Serp around it.  Yes, I understand that he made a contradiction, which is scummy in itself, but that's just as bad as accusing us of not being suspicious of Sodium, if you didn't really include other reasons.

---

I feel that the number of words Zakeri uses is disproportionate to the actual effectiveness of his posts.  I have also suspected him since D2, and it feels that his D3 actions have only deepened my suspicion.  Adding to Serp's case, I think that page 14 is a scummy oddity here, not only does he attack Serp for rather arbitary reasons (saying that he had yet to do anything of significance beyond 312 is a baseless accusation), he also engages in faulty attack against Roukanken, sort of turning around is turnaround and engaging in WIFOM (as sodium said, trying to be a psychaitrist isn't very convincing here). 

Thus, he is currently at the top of my list now.  On the upside, I sense some scumhunting, especially since he did not choose the easy lynches, but the reasonings are lacking.

---

I think Carthrat has been more passive in this game than active, to be honest, especially later in the game when pesco was about, and when he could say the obvious.  I don't think he made any actual contributions in terms of questioning, and while he provided solid opinions on already existing stuff such as the Sodium debate, I felt that he could have done more.  Who he thinks is scum now seems to be quite important in my judgment of him.

---

Sodium has been scummy so far for two things; his AtE late D3 on a line of questionin I did not fully endorse, which was surprising, as well as his sudden switch with regard to Nietz on D2.  There was also Dorian, but the impression I got from his Day One actions were slightly town with a shade of uncertainty.  Even so, I like that he has been questioning people like me on issues that seem original enough, which is quite a good improvment on his previous play.

What is not satisfactory, however, is the fact that his questionings don't really seem to go anywhere in terms of scumhunting; he also seems to be easily appeased (in the case of Nietz, for example).  I'm not willing to judge much on benign AtE, to be honest with everyone, so I'm willing to give that a sort of pass.  Again, I would like to see how he follows up on Zakeri today, as well as his opinions on everyone else.

---

I seem to be getting good vibes from Serp; would need more time to reread him.

[Carthrat]

I'm Ushiromiya Hideyoshi, town FISHMONGER! I sell FISH. On a STICK. It is USELESS. VANILLA FISH.

Gameflow is a bit hard to take stuff from. Day 2 and Day 3 both seemed to pile straight towards their respective lynches, with little of any other arguments really taking hold.

I really didn't like the line of questioning being thrown at Sodium yesterday, just as I really don't like the way Sodium himself turned around and slammed Zakeri, so I've got on-the-spot suspicion of Rou (for taking advantage of him there) and Sodium for wildly divergent reasons based on day 3. Strongly doubt they'd be buddies after that, though, soooo.

Sodium did respond to my suspicion there and I didn't get a chance to reply on the day. Some of the main points there were Zakeri's 'person X WIFOM', which looked like a demonstration of why questioning a replacement over his original's actions is futile; nothing wrong with that. The timing seemed at a point where one could toss it out without really expecting it to go anywhere. I really want to know why he thought pesco was townie and why he waited so long to vote Zak if he had all those prior suspicions going for him.

Running through Rou briefly, Day 1 Rou was as straight man as you can get; I have no real complaints with his act there (beyond both his targets then flipping town, but most people have been wrong all game, evidently, sooo.) Freebie lurkerpass on day 2 is annoying but can't do anything about it, latestuff there seems like straightforward tunneling on pesco. I got the feeling here that he was just glossing over NF's problems in order to persue his other case. On day 3, my biggest gripe is that he picked up Pesco's line of questioning on Sodium and went to town over a virtually unanswerable question. I'm kinda wondering why he's also busted out entirely new angles on people today instead of following up on any prior suspicions.

Affinity/Serp: I've lumped these guys in together because I have the same vauge feeling about both of them; that they've both been able to coast along throughout the game and managed to get attention just sliding off them. There are minor pokes here and there. Feels like there's always some people like this during most endgames, though. I'm going to have to go through them in detail later. I don't find Rou's posts helpful there, listing everything they do isn't useful. A case summary is, but he doesn't seem to have one? Eh.

Just noticed while going through Zakeri stuff that Affinity stabbed him for 'WIFOM nonsense'- to restate, I disagree that what he was getting at was a scummy proposition, and worry about people latching onto it.

Zakeri: Biggest problem I remember is his vanishing trick on day 2. I was worried on day one that he pushed an NF lynch at a bad time, that still grates, but I don't think it's major. He got into some role/setup speculation on day 2, however. This is concerning because he seems to initially act as though he's sure NF is a cop, and then turns around and plunges down on the lynch. Explanation?

On Day 3 there's a lot of hubbub over his response to the aggression on sodium that I think is rather unwarranted, as I've now documented many times. @_@

<->

At this point the only person I'm deeply suspicious of is Sodium (though I'm hardly ready to clear anyone), and even that is mainly due to the oddity of his day3Zakvote. I'd like an explanation from him on the why and when. I'm holding off going far into scumbuddy theories here, kinda want everyone to weigh in before trying to tackle it from that angle.

[Sodium]

So I'm voting him because:
Donut vote at Day 1(little reason, the wagon swinger)
Other various Day points from Day 2(Kiro's 250 is nice)
General lurkiness(RL probably the cause, so this isn't really major or anything)
"Oh hey Serp, post more, while some other people and I haven't posted all that much either"
"If x were scum" WIFOM
Posting not much after coming back from 48 hours without posting(not really important as it was at the time of my vote)

+Defending me for no reason(forgot this at the time of that post)
+Zakeri didn't even say anything about my vote on him(new point)

I like how you didn't read that post Carthrat. Also, what defines "a moment where you can put a vote without it going anywhere"? I wanted it to go somewhere, but it didn't because, as you said, Day 2 and 3 went directly to their respective lynches.

And for "why I thought Pesco was town" thing:

I'm trying to prove a point here;Pesco is a vanilla townie, but he was advertising himself as...Town Asprin Addict...because that's what it said in his role PM. =V

I could claim myself as Town Cool Guy(Flavoured Useless) if I were going to be lynched, but for the sake of not complicating things, I would've just said "vanilla townie", as that's what it essentially is. Pesco choose the Flavoured Useless claim for some reason.

Your entire case on me boils down to..."I didn't like his vote on Zakeri". Good for you, anything to add to that? Anything from the rest of the game?

Even lylo. Should we no lynch, or not?

[Serp]

153: 'Screw it, I'm voting the lurker.'
The problem I have with this move from him is that it just feels...not at all like Serp. Just compare this to his play in Yume Nikki Day 1...it doesn't feel like he'd just go for the easy way out like this. :/

Well, I was intentionally making a bit of a spectacle of myself to hold off an impending scumkill in that game, so don't take my play there too much to heart.

But if you think I was acting so differently there, keep in mind that I was one of the few that wanted to lynch Mr Alert, that game's lurker, too.  He wasn't my primary lynch, and he was even lurkier than Dorian had been, but I just ended up making a different judgement call in that game.  It's not like there's a standard calculation you can make to factor in scummy posts against lack of posts.  The fact that two of the three scum in that game ended up being lurkerscum was itself a factor in my thought process for this game, too.

Why so unwilling to cut him some slack when he looks like he has no idea what the hell he's doing?

Because scum are just as likely as town to have no idea what they're doing.  More likely, if anything, since townies don't need to attempt to be deceptive.

For the record, Serp, how does this logic hold considering this was Dorian's first game here? Unless his teammate told him explicitly 'Don't post', it wouldn't make any sense. Then gives two (very simple and obvious) points against Dorian and says that he's done proving his case.

Maybe he just froze up.  I'm not saying he consciously exploited a weakness of the MotK mafia crew.  Looking back on that post, I see that I did go off on a somewhat inapplicable tangent on scumhunting strategy.  I hope you won't call that out of character. :V

Forgive me for WIFOM, but doesn't it feel a little too easy making a case on Dorian?

You and I could WIFOM in circles all week on this subject.  For something you call an easy way out, I've caught a lot of flak for taking it, and I knew I would catch a lot of flak for making that vote.  I explicitly said so when I placed it.  Now, you can read this as me trying to deflect accusations against me for taking the easy path, therefore making the path easy again.  But since I'm aware of that angle too and am pointing it out, it can't be that, etc. etc.

Alright, I've exchanged WIFOM for WIFOM, now let's talk facts.  I believe that voting to lynch Dorian was the most pro-town thing I could do at that point.  Next to that, taking the easy path or going off on some more popular case to make myself look good means nothing.

202: Donut's giving up and admitting he can't hunt? Eh, Dorian's still worse.

Which is worse, the guy that's apparently almost giving up, or the guy that already has given up?

Interesting how his opinion on Donut has changed from 'lynch Pesco first' in 161 to 'lynch Donut first' in 202, as a side note.

Well, yes, the fourty posts in between there, including Donut's apparent almost giving up, shifted Donut from terciary to secondary lynch.  There are some much, much bigger flipflops you're overlooking, with much, much weaker justification from, say, Zakeri for example.

Alright, I've been holding Zakeri as my secondary or terciary lynch pretty much all game.

Actually like I just said you pulled him up out of the blue D2 so uh

Uh, alright, I did sort of misremember there.  In my own defense, I was irritated, and maybe very slightly suspicious, of Zakeri before then because of his disputes with my scumhunting.  It wasn't anything worth mentioning in itself, and I hadn't spent the time to go back and put all of Zakeri's posts together.  When Affinity mentioned him and I went back to read the posts in question, I saw where Affinity was coming from, so I pointed that out myself.  I've been considering Zakeri a good lynch since then.

312: Declares suspicion of Pesco and Zak, still no mention as to why Suwa fell off his scumdar. You can't specify that you're watching a player and then NOT SAY ANYTHING about them, surely.

Sure I can - if there's nothing worth mentioning, then nothing needs to be said.  As I pointed out before, you shouldn't give scum the courtesy of knowing which townies they'd benefit most from killing.

ASDF this is hard let's just take the easy way out today since Alice gave it the OK

##Vote: No Lynch

Oh, come on...  >_>

I guess it's a valid strategy to consider, but I really don't think it's the best one.  Mathematically speaking, if we just pick a random person to lynch, our odds may be better in odd LyLo, but that's just not how it works.  As things stand, scum need two townies to go along with their mislynch to win.  Tomorrow, they'd only need one.

How solid is 'your response is too serious, RVS is RUINED FOREVER!'?

Solid enough to deserve a response if you're already posting in the first place.

You admit that L-2 is awfully nervous, which is one of my points. But why are you okay with Pesco bringing him to L-2?

Pesco didn't bring him to L-2.  I don't know why he phrased it that way in his post after mine, but his vote was not actually on Nuke.  He was doing effectively the same thing I was, though his reason was that he was waiting for another player's response.

Plus why is Dorian suddenly a clueless Townie to you? Were you honestly thinking on D1 that he could potentially mess it up as a Townie?

Yes, absolutely.  I was fully expecting Dorian to come along and go "Hey, looks like Nuke's going to go down, I'd better jump on that bandwagon so I can blend in with everyone else!" while inadvertently ending the day.  Of course, as this was Page 4, Dorian just looked a little clueless, not scummy and fatally lurky.

[Carthrat]

Sodium: I did read that post, I thought I explicitly mentioned you replied to me like that, hence why it should be clear that I read it. In general, I do think some of the earlier points are valid opinions (mainly the lurkiness). I'm more worried about the timing and the 'trigger' reason, so to speak.

My point is that at that particular point in the day, one could make the reasonable assumption that Pesco was a shoe-in for lynch, and thus short of something totally crazy would be able to do pretty much anything they liked and still expect that to go through.

In this case, throwaway vote on Zak + distancing from pesco lynch is the concerning figure. Pesco's claim was pretty much meaningless in the end; I dimly recall it being pointed out yesterday, but it's bizzare to take it that as credence of his townhood.

I still want to know why you didn't vote Zak earlier in the day if you had all this stuff on him (particular after you unvoted Pesco, given that you've already said you've been worried about him for ages.)

As for other stuff, calling NF a confirmed townie on day one due to no counterclaim was totally weird and not something I'd expect out a townie. In fact, this brings into light that you've been clinging closely to role-related stuff on clearing now-known townies in lieu of, y'know, actual reasons.

<->

Crashing now, will do more stuff tomorrow. Not sure what I think about no lynch, except the payoff (narrows stuff down!) barely outweighs the initiative it grants scum. Blargh. Tired. Sleep.

[Sodium]

Sodium: I did read that post, I thought I explicitly mentioned you replied to me like that, hence why it should be clear that I read it. In general, I do think some of the earlier points are valid opinions (mainly the lurkiness). I'm more worried about the timing and the 'trigger' reason, so to speak.

What is the trigger reason? If you mean the WIFOM, that wasn't the biggest;the biggest was his "SERP POST MORE" after he was gone for 48 hours, and there are people that posted less then Serp.

My point is that at that particular point in the day, one could make the reasonable assumption that Pesco was a shoe-in for lynch, and thus short of something totally crazy would be able to do pretty much anything they liked and still expect that to go through.

Wat? So if there's a shoe-in lynch, we can't talk about/pursue anything else?

In this case, throwaway vote on Zak + distancing from pesco lynch is the concerning figure. Pesco's claim was pretty much meaningless in the end; I dimly recall it being pointed out yesterday, but it's bizzare to take it that as credence of his townhood.

Why is it bizzare to take it as credence of his townhood? Aside from how Pesco was being an ass about it in general, I mean.

I still want to know why you didn't vote Zak earlier in the day if you had all this stuff on him (particular after you unvoted Pesco, given that you've already said you've been worried about him for ages.)

When did I say I was worried about him for ages? o.o
Also, at that point, Zakeri was at his "almost modkilled" stage. I was waiting for Zakeri's next post(assuming he had one) before voting him/whatever. And...I voted him after he made his post. AMAZING!

As for other stuff, calling NF a confirmed townie on day one due to no counterclaim was totally weird and not something I'd expect out a townie. In fact, this brings into light that you've been clinging closely to role-related stuff on clearing now-known townies in lieu of, y'know, actual reasons.

Why should I list the people I think are town? I have other people I think are town with reasons, but I simply don't say it unless it's relevant. I'd give an example if you want me to. The times I said someone is town is because it was relevant to the situation at hand, and they both happened to have role related reasons.

[FinnKaenbyou]

Okay, I'm starting to get a little overwhelmed by the burst of WoTs here, and I'm worried that if we leave it like this it'll be nothing but arguing minute points for a week, which doesn't really help Town that much. Based on that, I decided to come up with something which is original and pretty important at this point in the game: potential scumpairs. In the end we can argue smaller points about scuminess all we want, but what matters is which TWO players are working together to kill off the entirety of the Town.
I'm afraid someone else will need to connect me to players, since I don't trust myself to be impartial. >_>

Carth/Serp
Serp makes little/no mention of Carth as a suspect for the whole game, but despite this feels the need to point out 'Pesco-Carth scumpair is unlikely' during D3. Why?
Carth lumps Serp in with Affinity - THIS IS V. IMPOTANT IF CARTH IS SCUM, as is makes it hard for us to choose his potential buddy. On the other hand he was at odds with him over Dorian and the NF lynch D1 so yeah, this is less likely.

Carth/Zak
Zak questions Carth on his Pesco vote, seems to be fearmongering them. This is especially important given that Pesco flipped Town, so the question seems designed to make the voter responsible for Townie blood on their hands.
Carth called Zak out D1 for trying too hard to vote. Later days he mostly supports him but has a slight degree of suspicion.

Carth/Aff
Aforemented clumping together of Aff and Serp on Carth's part. Has pretty much nothing else to say about him all game.
Aff really doesn't like Carthrat, actually. This is probably more of a moot point than I'm willing to admit.

Carth/Sodium
Yeah, these two hate each other. >_>

Serp/Zak
Serp hates Zak.
Zak had a little tiff with Serp around D2, but has been pretty quiet about him since. Don't feel anything here.

Serp/Aff
Serp was willing to throw Aff in as Pesco's buddy. To be fair though this is sort of a null point given that it wouldn't hold after Pesco's flip. Right now, though, they seem to be on good terms.
Note that the two of them jumped on Zakeri D2. Hmm.

Serp/Sodium
Serp was initially very cautious of Dorian but held back after the swap. Needed to be pressed to give his opinion on him. Bussing attempt gone wrong?
Sodium doesn't have a bad thing to say about Serp...ANYWHERE. Seriously, he defends him against Affinity, using Zak's attack on Serp as the spearhead for what's practically a Chainsaw...actually, I'm REALLY not liking this pair.

Zak/Aff
Affinity doesn't like Zak's case on Sodium. Then the two have a debate for a while then suddenly he drops it here. This feels notably unnatural, possibly too much to be a legitimate bussing attempt, especially given Affinity's insistence on waiting for Zak before doing anything else and the fact he still considers Zak a big suspect today.

Zak/Sodium
Sodium has the crappy Day 3 vote on Zak out of nowhere, plus he was practically begging for the Zak modkill. :/ Really don't see this one.

Aff/Sodium
Aff admits Sodium is scummy to a degree, but doesn't like me assuming it. Sodium disagrees with Aff on the topic of Serp here, but besides that has more or less nothing to say about him ANYWHERE, even in his most recent posts.

Again I'm getting feelings from my main scummy triangle - Sodium, Affinity and Serp. This is proving heavily irritating to me, because all I've managed to do is confirm myself as focusing on the three people I was already suspicious of. In particular this exercise helped me notice that Sodium is acting very strange in terms of hunting - he either outright hates the player's guts (see Zakeri and Carthrat) or pretty much ignores them altogether (Serp and Affinity).

I'd like other people to set out some theories as to their suspected pairs, because in the end if we find the right pair we win. After some thought I've decided to ##Unvote because we have to consider the possibility of something like a Survivor in this setup. If I had to choose now between the three I'd put my vote on Sodium since Aff/Serp buddies probably wouldn't risk saying they trusted each other during Lylo, but I really want to see some more opinions on this before I put my vote anywhere.

[Affinity]

Sodium has posted two times today and yet I still don't see any clear stances presented.  Before asking other people to add on to their accusations of you, it's natural that you should present something yourself for people to comment about; defending against people's opinions (Carthrat's) while not presenting anything for others to defend against seems hypocritical and scummy.  I understand that you're suspicious of Zakeri, but what about everyone else?

[WHMZakeri]

I am Kanon, Town Wimp. Once per Night, I can't do anything because I am too wimpy.

---

Most of day one is a cluster#@!* mainly because Everyone was focusing on how Nuke, Pesco, and Donut were acting like Scum. We then subsequently spent the first three days of the game proving ourselves 100% Wrong. This basically gives everyone who commented on the three during day one a large Nulltell, since everyone who's still alive now had several points that we all agreed on. The only thing that really stands out to me is Serpentarius.

basically, I'm offset by his 153. The one where he votes Dorian. Of note, he mentions Pesco - that he's acting like his scummy self, and that he seems to be evading Rou's questionings. He then notes that Lynching Pesco would be a good idea because it would bring Valuable information on Donut and Nuke. Then he votes for an inactive person. WHY IS LYNCHING AN INACTIVE PERSON MORE IMPORTANT THAT AN INFORMATIONAL LYNCH THAT COULD LIKELY HELP US FIND SCUM!? No, Seriously, this alone signals to me that you're working for Scum interest. I would just love to see how you explain this.

In 161, it becomes apparent that your only reason for the vote on Dorian was because he was inactive. When Kiro asks why you're not including any of the scummy actions dorian produced in your vote, you respond with "Well, it's not like he's commenting on anything." Which again is akin to the definition of inactive. Again in this post, you say that Pesco would be a good infolynch and that you were willing to switch to him is Dorian's non-infolynch didn't go through.

I hate how you try to link Nuke and Dorian together through the virtue of "Risk versus Reward." in posts 171 and 174. You're right, we could choose to lynch Dorian to minimize Risk and Reward, or Nuke to Maximize Risk and Reward. But, by the End of 174, you use the idea as a Guiding rule, stating that if we're not lynching Dorian, we should be Lynching Nuke. You gave us a standard issue "Either Or" Situation. "Either Dorian Or Nuke" This is a logical Fallacy, and one that I have never seen used by a townie.

in 178 you mention that we should add other factors other than a person's scumminess when choosing who to lynch. I agree with this in part, but you seem to be putting more emphasis on such other parts. You say at the top of the post that this is why you feel Dorian is scummier than Pesco and Donut. then, at the Bottom of the post, you bring up two arbitrary points of scumminess against him. What this basically tells me if that you've convinced yourself he's scum before finding reasons he's scum. Not Scumhunting.

Also, where exactly did that Rant From Effort being Penalized Come from? Especially since it seemed to be in reply to Dorian trying to prod Donut for a legitimately scummy action.

Post 202

If there are better targets, then they should be lynched, yeah.

Why are Pesco and Donut not bigger targets to you? Why is inactivity a much bigger crime than defending each other, or giving up, or all of the other scumtells they had on themselves at that point?

Post 208 is nothing more than a giant Mod-enforced Backtrack. According to this post, Since Dorian was replaced by an Active Player, the idea that an Inactive player remaining until Lylo no longer holds water. I disagree in that it never held water in the first place.

finally, Rou's recent pressing has opened up other things I'd like to point out.

keep in mind that I was one of the few that wanted to lynch Mr Alert, that game's lurker, too.  He wasn't my primary lynch, and he was even lurkier than Dorian had been, but I just ended up making a different judgement call in that game.

"I'm just trying a new playing style this game!" Best way to dissuade differences between a person's scum play and town play or what? Even excusing it as a different judgement call, why did you decide that lynching an inactive person took more priority over informational lynches or potential Scum?

Which is worse, the guy that's apparently almost giving up, or the guy that already has given up?

Trick question. It's the one that's acting scummier.

You and I could WIFOM in circles all week on this subject.  For something you call an easy way out, I've caught a lot of flak for taking it, ...

I believe you called it the easy way first, in post 153. You also said you would take a lot of flak for it, which you are. I'd like to know what you define as an Easy lynch because, from a townie standpoint it doesn't make sense. From a townie standpoint, there are only two kinds of lynches. Right ones, and Myslynches. From a Mafia perspective, however, there are all kinds of lynches. Hard ones, Easy ones, Bad ones. And the only reason someone would take Flak for an Easy one is because as the name implies, an Easy lynch is one that by default gains very little resistance.

I don't see how knowing you'd get flak for an easy lynch makes going for an Easy lynch more justifiable. Also, Pre-deflecting future claims of deflecting doesn't help justify it either.

##Vote Serpentarius
Yes, I'm that certain.

---

as you may have noticed I sort of cut off on day one. I still need to catch up days two and three, but I'm afraid there won't be too much there that can be analyzed. It's still on my list of stuff I need to not procrastinate on. As a Result, I'm getting mainly Nulltells on Rou, Affinity, Carthrat, and Sodium.

Oddly Enough, ignoring the "Pass for being too suspicious" Dorian's 120 gives me a townie feeling. He notices Nuke focusing on him not caring to be lynched, which he says gives him a town vibe, but then turns around at Nuke's "Better to lynch a no good townie than a helpful mafioso." Then tries to target Donut for bandwagoning to remove pressure from himself. It's not a strong feeling, but still he brought up important and original points that added to the discussion.

(I just got on a regular sleeping schedual two days ago, and now I'm already back to staying up until five in the morning... ;_;)

[Carthrat]

Sodium: The trigger reason was the WIFOM, I thought, my mistake then. Still, I'm having trouble seeing asking someone to post more as a high-octane scummy thing to do, even if there are worse offenders around.

The point about the shoe-in lynch is that it very much looks like you didn't bother dropping a case until dropping said case would have no impact.

I've inferred you were worried about Zak for ages by virtue of you having... points on him throughout the entire game used as collateral to your vote yesterday. So uh correct me if I'm wrong, but you've thought he's scummy for the majority of the game confirm/deny?

Why should I list the people I think are town? I have other people I think are town with reasons, but I simply don't say it unless it's relevant. I'd give an example if you want me to. The times I said someone is town is because it was relevant to the situation at hand, and they both happened to have role related reasons.

I.. uh... didn't say you should? The times you said someone were town both appeared to be from role-related reasons, yes, I agree! And I think aforementioned reasons are scummy.

NF claimed cop, no counterclaim, therefore NF = town. WTF?
Pesco hinted at a role that didn't seem to clear him either way to me. You call him town based on something verrrry easily faked. WTF?

In both cases I can see scum knowing what's going on with those people by dint of them knowing, well, that those guys aren't scum, and thus slipping up by giving them too much credence.

<-->

Found one big gripe with Serp, namely how he dealt with Dorian and then Sodium. Day one had him going after him over being a lurker, but the way he spoke on that issue didn't have him doing so on the grounds that he was scum at all; there's also a point where he seems to equate the logic that says 'don't lynch NF' with 'you must lynch Dorian'. This cannot fly, as 'lynch him because he might suck' is not the same as 'don't lynch him, because he might be the key to victory'.

Of course then Dorian drops out, Sodium is replaced, Serp goes "Gonna keep an EYE ON YOU" and then... never mentions him again?

<-->

Affinity is also with Sodium on the 'no counterclaim = favour for NF' thing, which is sparking warning signs. His day one play doesn't seem otherwise scummy on inspection- I think we had similar ideas on NF in general, that tidbit aside, although over day 2 he was more reticient to vote him.

<-->

Zak.. hit the main problem I had there with Serp in his post. Huh. Need to inspect day 3 more (I'm not getting much from day 2 at a glance, just due to the way that day played out.)

[Serp]

Okay, I'm starting to get a little overwhelmed by the burst of WoTs here, and I'm worried that if we leave it like this it'll be nothing but arguing minute points for a week, which doesn't really help Town that much. Based on that, I decided to come up with something which is original and pretty important at this point in the game: potential scumpairs. In the end we can argue smaller points about scuminess all we want, but what matters is which TWO players are working together to kill off the entirety of the Town.

Point taken, but, uh, I hope that doesn't mean you're going to refuse to comment on the cases against individual players.  Regarding your proposed scumpairs, I only find the ones involving Zakeri at all plausible, of course.

Serp makes little/no mention of Carth as a suspect for the whole game, but despite this feels the need to point out 'Pesco-Carth scumpair is unlikely' during D3. Why?

That post was in response to Kiro's post on the same page where he considered the likelihood of various scumpairs among Pesco, Affinity, Carthrat, and Zakeri.  He mentioned Pesco-Carth and Pesco-Affinity as standing out to him, and I pointed out why Pesco-Carth seemed unlikely.

basically, I'm offset by his 153. The one where he votes Dorian. Of note, he mentions Pesco - that he's acting like his scummy self, and that he seems to be evading Rou's questionings. He then notes that Lynching Pesco would be a good idea because it would bring Valuable information on Donut and Nuke. Then he votes for an inactive person. WHY IS LYNCHING AN INACTIVE PERSON MORE IMPORTANT THAT AN INFORMATIONAL LYNCH THAT COULD LIKELY HELP US FIND SCUM!? No, Seriously, this alone signals to me that you're working for Scum interest. I would just love to see how you explain this.

Because Pesco's lynch would only be really informative if he flipped scum, and in that same post you cite, I pointed out that nothing in Pesco's initial behavior seemed scummy to me.  Yes, I noted that he was being a little evasive, but as I said, I didn't consider that sufficient reason to go after him.  I'll ask you a question in return, though I expect you'll ignore it as you have all my other points against you.  Why is lynching a slightly scummy player a better move than sacrificing a useless inactive one (who may well be scum himself, I remind you) and giving everyone involved more time to either redeem themselves or cement their scumminess?

Okay, now what's this?  Here, you acknowledge the point I was making:

You're right, we could choose to lynch Dorian to minimize Risk and Reward, or Nuke to Maximize Risk and Reward.

But then, you completely misrepresent it:

But, by the End of 174, you use the idea as a Guiding rule, stating that if we're not lynching Dorian, we should be Lynching Nuke. You gave us a standard issue "Either Or" Situation. "Either Dorian Or Nuke" This is a logical Fallacy, and one that I have never seen used by a townie.

You acknowledge what I was trying to say, and then you deliberately misinterpret that same statement to mean something completely different.  I'm not even sure what you're trying to do here.

in 178 you mention that we should add other factors other than a person's scumminess when choosing who to lynch. I agree with this in part, but you seem to be putting more emphasis on such other parts.

And then you acknowledge that there's nothing wrong with weighting scumminess with other factors.  So you don't mind putting more emphasis on lurky players, yet your whole case on me is based on your dislike of how much emphasis I put on inactivity?  You really think that's the strongest case on anyone, now that we're in LyLo?

You say at the top of the post that this is why you feel Dorian is scummier than Pesco and Donut. then, at the Bottom of the post, you bring up two arbitrary points of scumminess against him. What this basically tells me if that you've convinced yourself he's scum before finding reasons he's scum. Not Scumhunting.

I cited two posts, yes.  He made four post-RVS posts in total.  A full 50% of his posts were scummy.  The other two were "Whoops, my post was scummy, I'll do better tomorrow" and a quote of Affinity's defense of him.  There was virtually no way at all that he could have been any scummier with so few posts.  Meanwhile, you advocated lynching the claimed cop instead.

Also, where exactly did that Rant From Effort being Penalized Come from? Especially since it seemed to be in reply to Dorian trying to prod Donut for a legitimately scummy action.

It came from irritation at players willing to give anyone who makes less than five posts a full clear.

Why are Pesco and Donut not bigger targets to you? Why is inactivity a much bigger crime than defending each other, or giving up, or all of the other scumtells they had on themselves at that point?

I'll just refer you to my posts on the subject late D1 and early D2, when you asked me the first time and we didn't already know their flips.

Post 208 is nothing more than a giant Mod-enforced Backtrack. According to this post, Since Dorian was replaced by an Active Player, the idea that an Inactive player remaining until Lylo no longer holds water. I disagree in that it never held water in the first place.

Funny how that difference in philosophy wasn't a scumtell until we got to LyLo.

"I'm just trying a new playing style this game!" Best way to dissuade differences between a person's scum play and town play or what? Even excusing it as a different judgement call, why did you decide that lynching an inactive person took more priority over informational lynches or potential Scum?

I'd like to remind you that I was wrong in that game.  Surely learning from past mistakes isn't a scumtell.  Otherwise, see previous responses.

I believe you called it the easy way first, in post 153. You also said you would take a lot of flak for it, which you are. I'd like to know what you define as an Easy lynch because, from a townie standpoint it doesn't make sense. From a townie standpoint, there are only two kinds of lynches. Right ones, and Myslynches. From a Mafia perspective, however, there are all kinds of lynches. Hard ones, Easy ones, Bad ones. And the only reason someone would take Flak for an Easy one is because as the name implies, an Easy lynch is one that by default gains very little resistance.

So, a mislynch of a scummy player and a mislynch of a solid player amount to the same thing?  You know, that's a more scummy position than the alternative.  After all, scum just needs to rack up a certain number of mislynches to win the game.  It doesn't matter how those mislynches are obtained.

I don't see how knowing you'd get flak for an easy lynch makes going for an Easy lynch more justifiable. Also, Pre-deflecting future claims of deflecting doesn't help justify it either.

So, you took my point about how we can WIFOM in circles forever and then proceed to WIFOM about it.  Incredible. :V

Well, here we have Zakeri ignoring all my points against him and instead responding with pure OMGUS.  His entire case against me hinges on my D1 vote of an inactive.  This coming from someone who tried to lynch the claimed cop D1, and never mind the fact that he didn't even vote me for this "certain" case 'till just now, two days after the offending action.  Do I really have to say any more?

##Vote Zakeri

As for how the other players are shaping up this LyLo, Roukanken's habbit of ignoring gigantic scumtells in favor of nitpicking scumhunting techniques rears its head again.  There's a time and place for that, and it's not now.  At least it's in character, I suppose.  Affinity's been pretty clean all game, and now he's defending himself while simultaneously attacking others.  This is a good sign.  Speaking of which:

Thus, he is currently at the top of my list now.  On the upside, I sense some scumhunting, especially since he did not choose the easy lynches, but the reasonings are lacking.

Easy lynches are the ones most likely to go through.  If everyone you've pursued is still alive by LyLo, then you can't be criticized after the fact for harassing a flipped townie.

Onto Carthrat.  I find it ironic that he points out my lack of activity lategame when he's the one that got prodded. :V  Anyway, I don't really see his case against Sodium.  Which raises an interesting point about Sodium - Zakeri's conduct pretty clearly implicates Sodium as his scumbuddy, but Sodium's own conduct, whether you think it's scummy in itself or not, doesn't readilly fit that interpretation.  Carthrat also asks me to answer the same questions on my Dorian vote again, despite the fact that I've already answered them.  Like an echo of Zakeri.  That's not a good sign.