Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Beyond the Border~ => Rumia's Party Games => Mystia's Stored Games => Topic started by: Unesco on August 01, 2009, 10:31:20 PM
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Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia at Comiket 76!
There's a commotion in the dealers room at Comiket 76, and I, Orin am here to give you a hell of a time telling you about it! Ooh, if I'm quick I might be able to find some souls! Let's see what's going on!
-5 minutes later with catlike speed-
There's a gathering of 12 artists around here it seems...and they don't look happy. Especially that drunk looking guy over there...maybe I'll ask him something!
Me: So, what's going on here!?
ZUN: Someone stole my score for the next game, and I have decided they must DIE!
Me: Ooh, sounds like I'll find a few souls during this affair, nyaa?
ZUN: You know, I probably shouldn't talk to strange girls while I'm drunk...I'd swear you were Rin but that's rather impossible since this is real life.
Me: Wellp, I'm here!
ZUN: Maybe we should solve this problem first...
Me: Nah! It's horrible that you Lost Your Music! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI_wWlz2Rck) You need to deal with that first!
ZUN: ...I need a drink...
So, there you have it, someone stole ZUN's music! Well...actually, he might have misplaced it while a little drunk maybe...wouldn't that be awesome? The accuser is the TRUE culprit! Either way, this sounds like it could get exciting, nyaa~! I think I saw someone buy a gallows set over in that booth over there! I think I'm going to enjoy this :3!
12 music artists...one excited hellcat...and a rabbit that will play the role of Sir-Not-Appearing-In-This-Game! Just how will this end!?
Find out by playing...Touhou Remix Mafia!
Players
Still Composing:
2. Affinity (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=78)
5. Suwako Moriya (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=841)
7. Kiro (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=22)
8. Zakeri (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=62)
9. Serpentarius (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=35)
10. Alice (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10)
Decomposing:
12. 天使 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=80) - Azure & Sands, Townie Jazzy Jailkeep (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2GnKXwKraA&feature=related) - Lynched Day 1
3. Carthrat (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=342) - UI-70, Townie Metalmixer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB1AHrQy9Hs) - Beaten to Death N1
4. Nietz (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=139) - Xepher Cradle, Townie Neoclassical Psychologist - Lynched D2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryy00VN9C2Y)
11. Jan-san (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=167) Kerigis (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=11) - Lyrica Prismriver, Keyboardist Townie Neighbor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9wHYiicY5), has been burnt to a crisp D3 for bad haiku
6. Edible (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=19) Xan (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=155) EX Na2O2 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=111) - Innocent Key, Mafia Goon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPilJCvwKok), has been burnt to a crisp D3 for bad haiku
1. Roukanken (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=85) - Roukanken, Lunasa Prismriver, Violinist Townie Neighbor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9wHYiicY5I) - Beaten to death and murdered on the high Cs N3
Banned from Comiket FOREVAR!:
0. (and there better NOT be anyone here!)
Rule set and other details to follow. Do not post in topic yet.
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The rules. Stolen very VERY loosely from Tarhalindur.
1) I am the mod thy goddess, and whatever I say is law. If you make a mistake voting, tell me so I can correct the vote count.
2) Don't have fun at the expense of the other players in this game (in other words, don't be a jackass). Repeated or extreme violations of this rule will result in being Banned from Comiket Forevar!
2a) Attempting to use loopholes in the rules to gain an advantage in the game is considered jackassery, and will be treated as such. This applies to things like encrypted codes, invisible text, editing and deleting posts, trying to use the structure of the role PM to gain an advantage, etc. Please, use your common sense!
2b) If you are Banned from Comiket FOREVAR!, you've personally lost.
2c) Townies Banned from Comiket FOREVAR! cause everyone to go back to their hotel. Scum Banned from Comiket FOREVAR! for some reason do not cause this effect. For the sake of argument, any third parties will count as scum for the sake of Banned from Comiket FOREVAR!
3) Rule 3 has been Banned from Comiket FOREVAR!
4) You vote for someone to die like this: ##Vote: forbiddanlight. You unvote by saying Unvote. Unvoting is required to cast a new vote.
4a) Anyone or anything that reaches lynch count will be lynched, regardless of whether they are actually in the game or not.
5) Days have a deadline of 72 hours. A deadline extension of 24 hours may be granted by a majority vote once per day.
5a) If no one has reached majority by deadline, the person with the most votes will be lynched. If there is a tie, each player in the tie will send me a haiku. Whichever one is more amusing will be spared the rope.
6) Nights will last between 24 and 48 hours.
7) If someone has a night action and fails to send it in before night ends, they will take a randomized night action.
8) No outside talking about the game, unless your role PM says so.
9) Be respectful to the other players and have fun.
Or I'll kill you
In Real Life
Seriously.
10) Dying means you can't post in the thread anymore. So does being Banned from Comiket FOREVAR!
11) You are, however, not dead until I say so. You also are not Banned from Comiket FOREVAR! until I say so.
12) Unless V/LA is declared in thread, you are expected to post at least once every 24 hours. Failure to do so results in prodding for the first two offenses, and the final offense will involve you being force replaced.
13) Twilight posting is alright. Until I lock the thread you can discuss anything.
14) Pink is my color. Using it risks being Banned from Comiket FOREVAR!
Yellow is my colour, うさ.
15) If 3 no lynch/no kill cycles occur, Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies) No one will win.
16) I reserve the right to add rules if necessary, or just because I felt like it. Deal.
17) Just so you know, rule 2a does count quoting parts of your role PM, or paraphrasing too closely. If you want to paraphrase your role PM, PM ME FIRST!
18) The flavor, it means NOTHING!
19) Don't be retarded and edit your posts. You will be Banned from Comiket FOREVAR! if I catch you.
Townie PM is in this format
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, PLAYERNAME. You are ROLENAME, ROLE
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqZrlQgnhVI) is an example of your work.
As such, you have the following special abilities:
ABILITYNAME: <ABILITY DESCRIPTION>
Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm in-thread.
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Sending Role PMs now. Please watch warmly as girls do their best
EDIT: Role PMs. They have been sent. We'll start when I've seen everyone confirm. I'd also like to warn you of three things:
1) This is SPARTA! role madness. Expect the unexpected.
2) I like throwing random easter eggs (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EasterEgg) in my flavor. Find them and gain a sense of accomplishment.
3) Links don't show up as a different color from the one I'm posting. Gotta make it a LITTLE hard to find things.
EDIT:
4. I can't count
5. Scum do NOT get to talk pregame.
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/confirmed.
I think I saw someone buy a gallows set over in that booth over there!
Well, Comiket is certainly more...varied than I expected it to be. o_O
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Confirmed.
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I guess I should confirm before searching for the third easter egg.
**** year, Lost My Music!
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ARE YOU READY TO ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCK
confirmed
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I guess I should confirm before searching for the third easter egg.
**** year, Lost My Music!
There are four or five depending on who you ask. Also, sucks I can't edit responses into posts like I do on MS
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Confirmed~
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Confirmed. Also the red text hurts my eyes.
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Confirmed. Also the red text hurts my eyes.
Got a better color suggestion? Can I do purple?
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Confirmed. Gosh, that's even worse. Try yellow. Or beige
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Confirmed. Gosh, that's even worse. Try yellow. Or beige
But I want a cute color
EDIT: ok, purple is right out.
EDIT EDIT: Edible is now replaced by Xan.
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Confirmed
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Confirming that I can replace.
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Confirming that I can confirm.
Confirming that the above was a confirmation.
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So votes only require a bold Vote to it and don't need the ##Vote?
And confirmed. I knew I subconsciously chose this avatar for a reason.
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We are still waiting for Nietz and Jan-san to confirm. Still about 18 hours to do so, just enjoy the rest of Comiket in the meantime if you will.
Vote like normal with ##Vote. Unvoting is required.
EDIT: Yeah, sorry, used to the MS format and forgot to change that. Also, editing posts is indeed bad, mmk?
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Yellow works nicely. Also is #15 really in Tar's original ruleset? It's silly :V
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Yellow works nicely. Also is #15 really in Tar's original ruleset? It's silly :V
Don't worry, #5a means that #15 should never come into play anyway.
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Phone posting bleh.
If nobody votes, rule 15 might happen
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##Vote Carthrat
Carth/Serp scumpair. Obviously. >_>
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##Vote Roukanken
>_> seems suspicious
DON'T EDIT YOUR POSTS. It's in the rules.
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no rou we're not bad honest
vote for people who can't vocabulate like we can okay? we're totally legit
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Yellow works nicely. Also is #15 really in Tar's original ruleset? It's silly :V
Don't worry, #5a means that #15 should never come into play anyway.
Well, you could always no lynch three times in a row. I had a situation where everyone tried to do that and it caused the game to drag on with no new info really. So thjat's why I added the rule. Remember, I said very LOOSELY based on Tar's rule set. Mostly the jackassery rule and such. I also loosely steal his votecounts
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##Vote: That guy with the moonspeak name
Only scum would have a name I can't read or write.
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Ooh, nice. I'll just call him 'moonspeaker' from now on. Probably 'moon' for short.
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Oh, his name is just chinese for Angel. But hmm, moon it is then.
我们一起说华语
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##Vote: Xan for voting for Days So.
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Confirming before the game starts without me. I ended up busy yesterday, and I might not be on all that much until later in the day.
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Lazy Sunday, wake up in the late afternoon
Log on MotK just to see what they're doin'
Hello thar?
What up, 'nesco?
Yo Nietz, what’s crackin’?
You thinking what I’m thinkin?
/CONFIRM!
Oh damn, I have to start the game!
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The dealers room at Comiket 76 has OPENED! And in some extradimensionally awesome space that looks just like the dealers room, stand 13 people. Some of them grumpy, other ones looking cool, others confused, and one VERY pissed.
ZUN: I got all you here so we could democratically decide who stole my music. By lynching! A figment of my imagination told me it was alright.
Me: I'm real (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AcceptableBreaksFromReality) I tell you!
ZUN: Yes, I'm sure you are. At any rate, she wants souls and I want my damned score. So, we will spend the next few days deciding who should die, and we will find the fiends that stole my music.
Me: Couldn't you just demand they return it or you'll hit them with a lawsuit if you ever hear it from them?
ZUN: But that wouldn't be any fun and you told me you wanted souls!
Me: Oh...right. Nyaa~
Anyway, since mafia is the best way to resolve everything, let's get this show on the road! I'll be in the dealers room with my shopping cart while you all decide this stuff. I might pop in to keep track of the votes every so often though! Nyaa~ good luck!
Deadline will be Wednesday, August 5th, at 3 PM EST. I will post an initial votecount and then Day one will start!
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The First "Beginning of Day 1" Vote Count
"Awakening of the Earth Spirits" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD0Ak-Sc7QA)
Mod Note: I'm changing my color to pink. I will fix everything
Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Carthrat (0)
Nietz (0)
Suwako Moriya (0)
Xan (0)
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (0)
Jan-san (0)
天使 (0)
Not Voting (12):
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is in three days at 3 PM EST, Wednesday, August 5th
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##Vote Tenshi
CRAWLING IN MY SKIN...
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##Vote: Suwako Moriya because I STILL don't know who he is. >_>
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##Vote Unesco
Out of principle.
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Whoop, my connection went out in the middle of posting.
Vote Nietz cuz he was scum in the last game I played.
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##Vote Jan-San
Pre-emptive vote in case he lurks. :P
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No worries, I don't foresee anything going wrong.
Then again, I rarely do. I just hope everyone shows up now that confirmations are done.
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##Vote: Roukanken ONLY ONE OF US LEAVES THIS DAY ALIVE
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Phone posting is truly bizarre.
##Vote: Alice Margatroid because she's always scum.
I don't think I can bold on this thing. I hope that's OK.
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##Vote: Jan-san
Because I don't remember you finishing a mafia game. D=
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Aha! I think I figured it out.
##Vote: Alice Margatroid again, but this time, with feeling!
I am the most clever goddess ever.
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##Vote: Carthrat for declaring a day one rivalry to the death with Roukanken that may or may not end with either of your deaths. This makes you the closest thing to Pesco we have in this game so far.
Hey, you don't want to skirt rules 2 and 9, do you!? (kidding)
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This makes you the closest thing to Pesco we have in this game so far.
That's such harsh slander.
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##Vote: Jan-san
Because I don't remember you finishing a mafia game. D=
Ouch, bro. I know it's been a while, but still.
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Didn't you already respond to that post once? o_O
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##Vote:Zakeri
Because someone on the IRC thought I was him
BOLD! Hunh! What is it goooooooood for! Absolutely voting!
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*Checks timestamps*
Wow, it sure got quiet all of a sudden in here. Alright, Moonspeak, you should know that it's bad etiquette to bring evidence from private channels into the game, even if it wasn't a rule-breaking purposeful intiation of private contact between players. There's no way to confirm that you're telling the truth, so it introduces lots of confusion and baseless speculation. Most of the time, players at this stage of the game just place random votes and the game develops into real cases and votes from there. Your vote has just enough reasoning behind it to look real, but not enough to actually be taken seriously, which is probably what scared everyone away. :V
##Vote Alice Margatroid
The game has started, but he hasn't even dropped a random vote. I suspect that he checked the thread, saw Moonspeak's post, and wanted to avoid getting tangled in the issue of what to do about a serious vote based on outside knowledge. Let others take care of the fallout, and hope that it distracts us from him. It looks like scummy self-preservation to me.
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##Unvote, ##Vote: Serpentarius how the fuck did you write so many words about nothing at all, this is clearly scum trying to look smart.
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Serp: I don't get why you thought Tenshi's vote was serious. First off, I got the impression Tenshi is a player who hasn't played Mafia before so to say that "he should know it's bad to bring in outside evidence" is baseless. Secondly, his reason has no relevance to the game.
In your reasoning for voting Alice, besides the part about seeing Tenshi's supposed serious vote which is speculative, what you accuse Alice of can be said about anyone else, even those who had early random votes. I assume you picked Alice instead of anybody else because Alice has not posted since the game started. I'm not seeing how you can accuse Alice of lurking or not when that was your first post as well and when the early game probably gives off a wait-and-see vibe for most everyone else. If you just wanted to prod Alice, you could have said that, but you're insinuating there's something else there when I see nothing at the moment.
##Unvote Tenshi
##Vote Serpentarius
Also, since you speculated about Tenshi's post, let me ask what do you think of it personally. I personally think it's RVS.
Also waiting for an Alice post.
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The Second "Artists are discussing" Vote Count
"腋トランスコア+" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUERO6Peqzc)
Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Carthrat (1): Zakeri
Nietz (0)
Suwako Moriya (1): Roukanken
Xan (0)
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (2): Carthrat, Kiro
Alice (2): Suwako Moriya, Serpentarius
Jan-san (2): Xan, Affinity
天使 (0)
Unesco (1): Nietz
Not Voting (3): Alice, Jan-san, 天使
Jan-san's vote in #36 and 天使's vote in #47 were not counted.
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is in three days at 3 PM EST, Wednesday, August 5th
Thanks, I was about to see if I had to post one ^-^. I may have to anyway, but still!
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Serp: I don't get why you thought Tenshi's vote was serious. First off, I got the impression Tenshi is a player who hasn't played Mafia before so to say that "he should know it's bad to bring in outside evidence" is baseless. Secondly, his reason has no relevance to the game.
I meant "should" in the sense that it would be best for him to know it, and therefore I was informing him. If I meant it in the sense that he was probably already aware of it, I would've voted against him instead. As for whether his reason has no relevance to the game, that would depend on the vote being intended as RVS, and if he is indeed new to the game, then he may not be aware of the RVS custom.
In your reasoning for voting Alice, besides the part about seeing Tenshi's supposed serious vote which is speculative, what you accuse Alice of can be said about anyone else, even those who had early random votes. I assume you picked Alice instead of anybody else because Alice has not posted since the game started.
Let me explain my reasoning a little more fully. As I see it, everyone has a duty to put a RVS post out there for others to analyze, for what little it's worth, as soon as they see that the game has started. But once Moonspeak put his arguably serious post out there, anyone posting after that is obligated to comment on it. But by making the first definitely serious post of the game, you put yourself at huge risk of being bandwagoned, especially when it's regarding a sticky issue like outside private information. And by making your RVS vote after what looks like a serious case, you draw suspicion for ignoring it. So, the solution for the player whose highest priority is to preserve himself is to simply not post at all.
I'm not seeing how you can accuse Alice of lurking or not when that was your first post as well and when the early game probably gives off a wait-and-see vibe for most everyone else.
Well, the difference is that I know that I didn't get a chance to read the thread since the game started until just then, and I strongly suspect that some others did, and just chose to back away slowly. And on that subject, just how is "wait-and-see" at all a townie reaction? A townie's job is to analyze what's there, in public, for others to review and either agree with or criticize. Avoiding that is anti-town behavior. I don't see how you could call purposefully avoiding commenting on something a townie move.
If you just wanted to prod Alice, you could have said that, but you're insinuating there's something else there when I see nothing at the moment.
The above case applies to everyone who saw Moonspeak's post and chose to avoid commenting on it. It applies to Alice especially because you'd expect him to show up and place his RVS vote sometime in the first 24 hours of the game, but so far he hasn't done so. I'm not at all happy that the thread just died for ten hours and I had to kick-start it to get some discussion going. When everyone decides to just "wait and see," nothing gets done. We're almost a full 24 hours into the game, and there's hardly any information to analyze out here. My vote's on Alice, but I'm irritated at everyone who just decided to wait and see what other people would say about Moonspeak's vote.
Also, since you speculated about Tenshi's post, let me ask what do you think of it personally. I personally think it's RVS.
I think that Moonspeak was making a real observation and then voting on it. That means it can't really be considered random. More importantly, I believe it deserved comment, and once people start seriously commenting on each other, RVS is over.
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@Serp: The way I see it, you trying to make a big point out of reasons that only that only seem valid to you.
I didn't think (as probably most other people) of Tenshi's vote as anything other than a joke. You also seem to base your case against Alice in the assumption that he has read the thread and avoided posting, even though he had previously said he wouldn't be much active in the first days.
But by making the first definitely serious post of the game, you put yourself at huge risk of being bandwagoned, especially when it's regarding a sticky issue like outside private information. And by making your RVS vote after what looks like a serious case, you draw suspicion for ignoring it. So, the solution for the player whose highest priority is to preserve himself is to simply not post at all.
That's a WIFOM-y point, I don't think I've seem so much people lynched Day exclusively for making the first serious post. And we've had a LOT of cases of townies making RVS posts after serious discussion had supposedly started.
Oh, and ##Unvote.
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It's interesting that Alice hasn't so much as thrown in a vote in RVS, but I intend to give him a few more hours before I put him down as lurking simply because he's Alice. >_> Call it a meta play, but given this is role madness I wouldn't put it beyond UK to give him some stupid post restriction.
Tenshi clearly has no idea what the hell he's doing, and his 'someone told me to do it' vote doesn't really sound anything resembling serious to me. I'm not understanding why anyone would consider a second-hand opinion to be worth a legitimate vote.
As for whether his reason has no relevance to the game, that would depend on the vote being intended as RVS, and if he is indeed new to the game, then he may not be aware of the RVS custom.
I think that Moonspeak was making a real observation and then voting on it.
I'm sorry, this is just horrible. WHY WOULD ANYONE MAKE A REAL OBSERVATION BASED ON WHAT SOMEONE TOLD THEM OVER A CHAT? You're basically assuming by default that Tenshi is an utter moron who doesn't have the first clue how to play, and then you seem to be using that as an excuse to end RVS. Ending RVS is fine, but doing so with such a poor opening point to discuss is less so.
I'm kind of understanding where Carth is coming from with the 'how can you say so much about so little' point. Tenshi made a joke vote and apparently every other player is at fault for not taking it super-seriously. Why exactly are you so convinced that he meant his accusation genuinely?
##Vote: Serpentarius
Currently giving Alice the benefit of the doubt since he's, well, THE Alice Margatroid, but if he doesn't pipe up soon I will probably end up being more wary of him.
And, of course, the question no-one bothered to ask: Tenshi, did you genuinely mean to accuse Zakeri with this vote?
Oh WHERE, oh where have my unvotes gone?
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Last Active: Today at 08:07:21
Reply #48 on: Today at 10:09:18
Serpentarius's attack makes some sense, now, Considering Alice was indeed on two hours before Serp attacked him.
I agree in that it's everyone's duty to post a random vote during the RVS, but I think Serp is stretching the point. I don't see how "Being Mistaken for the guy I'm voting for" Amounts to anything serious. In addition, who's to say Days So doesn't know what RVS is? Even if he hadn't looked back on previous games, or even if Wrathie hadn't explained that part to him, then I think it would at least be apparent to him from votes such as "You're acting the most like Pesco," And "Because they are always/were scum last time" that we're just fooling around at the time of his post. I don't see how anyone can pick up a serious vibe from that, let alone try to avoid it by not posting when they can easily post and ignore it safely.
Still, why did you make it appear like you had assumed Alice was there and choose not to provide a post without presenting any sort of evidence that she was here in the first place? For such a serious vote, it still looks like a baseless accusation.
but I'm irritated at everyone who just decided to wait and see what other people would say about Moonspeak's vote.
For the Record, what I would have said was "What's wrong with being me? :'("
##Unvote: Carthrat
Serp does have a point, even though it looks like he's attempting to jump onto an Inactive person, so I'm not certain where to take my vote to lynch now.
##Vote: Alice Margatroid since I would like an explanation for why you haven't RVed yet.
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I actually thought Serpentarius was fooling around and being comically overdramatic until I read his response to Kiro. Hell, a part of me still thinks he was fooling around initially, and only turned serious after Kiro took him seriously.
I can't honestly say I think any of the Serp Circus looks scummy to me. I believe that either Serp held a unique opinion or was simply fooling around, and neither can really be called scummy at this stage in the game. On the flip side, none of the votes for him look out of the ordinary, either. Part of Roukan's explanation for why he thought Tenshi was kidding
his 'someone told me to do it' vote
is strange to me, because I don't recall seeing anything of the sort, but hopping on what looks best really early on is kinda-sorta Roukan's thing, so.
Vote stays on Alice because she hasn't said anything yet.
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his 'someone told me to do it' vote
is strange to me, because I don't recall seeing anything of the sort
Agh, I misread his post as 'Someone on the IRC channel thought it was him', not 'Someone on the IRC channel thought I was him'. :V
Still, if anything, that makes Serp's move even worse, because now it looks even less like a legitimate vote. At worst, his explanation of RVS to Tenshi could be considered lecturing.
(And I now have a theory as to the identity of Suwako, but I'll keep it to myself since it isn't game-relevant.)
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Regarding Alice's notice that he'd be frequently absent near the beginning of the game, I admit that it this blunts my point. I had forgotten about that. Pre-arranged absences are by definition not a scumtell.
That's a WIFOM-y point, I don't think I've seem so much people lynched Day exclusively for making the first serious post. And we've had a LOT of cases of townies making RVS posts after serious discussion had supposedly started.
One things leads to another. The more scum are forced to talk, the more likely it is that they'll slip up and say something damning. And as for townies making RVS posts after there's legitimate stuff to talk about, they may do that, but that doesn't mean it's a helpful or townie move - which is why I refused to do so.
Ending RVS is fine, but doing so with such a poor opening point to discuss is less so.
Sure, it's a poor opening point by most standards, but that's what you get for Day 1's first case. The longer the day goes on, the more important it becomes to find any excuse to end RVS. I wasn't content to pass the buck and lose however many more hours while everyone decided to wait and see. I challenge you to point out a single other point that could have been used to end RVS by that point.
I'm kind of understanding where Carth is coming from with the 'how can you say so much about so little' point. Tenshi made a joke vote and apparently every other player is at fault for not taking it super-seriously. Why exactly are you so convinced that he meant his accusation genuinely?
I'm not absolutely convinced that he meant it seriously. It just looks serious enough to deserve comment, especially with the lack of other points so far into the day and the lack of activity in the thread.
I don't see how anyone can pick up a serious vibe from that, let alone try to avoid it by not posting when they can easily post and ignore it safely.
Well, let me put it this way: I would've questioned anyone who RVS posted after that point.
Still, why did you make it appear like you had assumed Alice was there and choose not to provide a post without presenting any sort of evidence that she was here in the first place? For such a serious vote, it still looks like a baseless accusation.
It's a theory that fits the circumstances. I also shouldn't need to point out that if you're going to place a vote, you should be as serious as possible about it. A limp-wristed prod never got a useful reaction out of anyone.
Still, if anything, that makes Serp's move even worse, because now it looks even less like a legitimate vote.
How so? He could've figured that a scumbuddy of Zakeri's expecting him to get online jumped at seeing a new name on the channel. That's how I interpreted Moonspeak's rationale. Though, come to think of it, it would've made more sense to mention who it was that assumed he was Zakeri in that case.
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This is strange because Alice has the habit of not bothering to participate during RVS, so I'm willing to let him be on that for awhile. Also, Tenshi's vote looked like a random vote to me, so I don't understand what Serp is saying at all with his purple prose.
But this stands out,
I believe that either Serp held a unique opinion or was simply fooling around,
You haven't said what you really thought about Tenshi, so saying that his was a 'unique opinion' is a little bit of a waffle, because that covers a lot of questionable ground.
##Vote: Suwako
Bouken UNVOTE UNVOTE HONTO ga...
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Sure, it's a poor opening point by most standards, but that's what you get for Day 1's first case. The longer the day goes on, the more important it becomes to find any excuse to end RVS. I wasn't content to pass the buck and lose however many more hours while everyone decided to wait and see. I challenge you to point out a single other point that could have been used to end RVS by that point.
That isn't the point here. The point is that there's little reason to leave RVS if there's nothing worth discussing. Go into real voting with nothing worth talking about, and there's no way anything productive will come from the day.
Though, come to think of it, it would've made more sense to mention who it was that assumed he was Zakeri in that case.
Or better yet, how about voting for the person who thought he was Zakeri?
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That isn't the point here. The point is that there's little reason to leave RVS if there's nothing worth discussing. Go into real voting with nothing worth talking about, and there's no way anything productive will come from the day.
No, no, if we're too picky about the cases we move out of RVS for, then there's nothing worth discussing. Normally RVS produces something clearly worth commenting on. This time, we had to reach a little more than usual. It was a valid point to discuss, however minor, and it's being pretty quickly overtaken by opinions of opinions of cases. This is good. It's how the game is meant to flow.
In any case, there hadn't been any posts in ten hours. Most of the random votes were already in place. Something had to give. Do you really think it would have been more pro-town to just make another random vote and then wait for someone else to shake things up?
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Whoops, forgot my "##" in my joke vote.
I don't think Tenshi was trying to make a serious vote. I don't think I've ever seen Tenshi play either, since s/he edited their post without knowing the rules earlier. As Kiro mentioned, I think it's more of a case of someone who didn't really know how to go about playing the game, and set off some false alarms. However, I don't think Serpentarius's vote on Tenshi was more than something to get his attention... If anything, it kinda comes off as too-townie play, but I'm willing to wait and let things move a little before pushing a case.
For now, I'll just prod our usual lurker. ##Vote Alice. It's been way over 24 hours since confirmation.
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Serp: The issue I have with you is your accusation that Alice has checked the thread and purposefully did not post either a RVS or a reply about Tenshi's vote and it looking like scummy self preservation. That's a bit of a reach with those choice of words, even for a Day 1 case imo. First, you have no conclusive evidence of him checking or "purposefully" not posting. As much as I dislike it, Alice doesn't always post in RVS as Affinity mentioned whatever his alignment. It's useless to prod Alice on that. If I'm going to vote Alice, it's a vote to lynch. Not posting in RVS or for the first 24 hours is akin to lurking, but that's not the accusation you put forward. You're saying he's refusing to discuss something serious which isn't quite the same.
The problem is deciding whether Tenshi was worth replying about and it is perceptively different as the various replies in this thread are pointing out. Finally, in the span of 11 hours between Tenshi and your post, how many others probably saw the thread and decided not to respond to Tenshi as you believe it deserved? Alice is just the easiest to single out, but I imagine you didn't make a list of all the other players who were online in that 11 hour period. While this definitely looked like an attempt to force RVS to end, anyone who does so is neutral in my book. I find your reasons standing out oddly.
I noticed Nietz's #53 is strictly commentating. If there's someone that suddenly looks like he's not adding to the discussion (there's no actual opinion about Serp), he fits the bill the most out of everyone minus the lurkers. Care to take a stance on whether Serp is scummy or not? And you didn't bother to at least present a question or prod to anybody else which is slightly lazy.
Lurkers = Alice, Tenshi, Xan, Jan-san (just posted)
Cut by Serp: Town or Scum can end RVS to gain Townie cred or just take the first step in pushing a mislynch. And RVS always end somehow but it never means every player will contribute more. *scans lurker list again*
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Well, let me put it this way: I would've questioned anyone who RVS posted after that point.
And what exactly would you have questioned them about?
A Better question would be why anyone would have thought you would question them since your opinion on Days So's vote came out of no where?
Though, come to think of it, it would've made more sense to mention who it was that assumed he was Zakeri in that case.
Or better yet, how about voting for the person who thought he was Zakeri?
why are we trying to gleam information on something that happened outside of the game? Days So voted me because I was relevant to the game, but we don't even know if the person who made the mistake is in this game. It would seem legitimately out of place if that person was E-Mouse or Wrathie.
It was Days So's first vote, for a reason that didn't even have to do with the game much less scum hunting. How does this not qualify for RVS material?
Also, Serp, you ignored my first question: Did you target Alice knowing he was on earlier today? And if so, why didn't you provide timestamps as evidence? Judging from your recent opinions on Alice, your vote seems to have been made without the knowledge that Alice wouldn't have too much time to post at the beginning.
However, I don't think Serpentarius's vote on Tenshi was more than something to get his attention...
Serp isn't voting for Tenshi. He's voting for Alice for not immediately commenting on the serious business that was Tenshi's vote.
reading Kiro's...
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I noticed Nietz's #53 is strictly commentating. If there's someone that suddenly looks like he's not adding to the discussion (there's no actual opinion about Serp), he fits the bill the most out of everyone minus the lurkers. Care to take a stance on whether Serp is scummy or not? And you didn't bother to at least present a question or prod to anybody else which is slightly lazy.
I didn't think he looked particularly scummy for that. He seemed honest about wanting to start some serious discussion. Of course, a scum could do that just as well as a townie, so that was a null tell.
Making a point on Tenshi and then voting Alice was a little weirder. And looking back at his responses, the whole "duty to make a RVS post" sounds a little forced. Could be scum making too much effort to look town, but I'm not too convinced right now.
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If Alice doesn't pipe up he'll just be modkilled and stuff, he already said he's going to be lurktastic on day 1/2. I can hate this and also not find him scummy for it, everyone else can find it in their hearts to feel the same.
Moon's vote was pretty clearly a jokevote. Is this actually debateable? Also suspicious of Zakeri for piling onto Alice, three votes on him for nothing is weird and bad.
Can the mods please, like, give votecounts on every page if at all possible?
Ask and ye shall recieve? I'll post one in a second. Gotta find a cool song...
You guys aren't going to post a page worth all that quickly are you? I'll be more pressed for good songs though
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The Third "Jazzin' it up!" Vote Count
"我儘お嬢様の為のBigband" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy61nCnL5JI&feature=related)
Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Carthrat (0)
Nietz (0)
Suwako Moriya (1): Roukanken
Xan (0)
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (2): Carthrat, Kiro
Alice (4): Suwako Moriya, Serpentarius, Zakeri, Jan-san
Jan-san (2): Xan, Affinity
天使 (0)
Not Voting (3): Alice, 天使, Nietz
Wherever I put a pretty message telling you to unvote, your vote didn't count. Don't worry, they are pretty easy to find, since they involve songs probably not related to Touhou.
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Alice is at L-3
Deadline is in two days at 3 PM EST, Wednesday, August 5th
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It was a valid point to discuss, however minor, and it's being pretty quickly overtaken by opinions of opinions of cases. This is good. It's how the game is meant to flow.
How is picking one joke vote and treating it as a genuine accusation a 'valid point'?
He seemed honest about wanting to start some serious discussion. Of course, a scum could do that just as well as a townie, so that was a null tell.
This statement feels sort of off. Serp's entire point is that not contributing is a scumtell because discussion is good for Town, and Nietz follows up with 'trying to start legitimate conversation is a nulltell because scum could do it as well'. Isn't that sort of contradictory?
Nietz: If you don't think that Serp is worth suspicion, what about Alice? Is there anyone you have anything on right now?
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As much as I dislike it, Alice doesn't always post in RVS as Affinity mentioned whatever his alignment. It's useless to prod Alice on that. If I'm going to vote Alice, it's a vote to lynch. Not posting in RVS or for the first 24 hours is akin to lurking, but that's not the accusation you put forward. You're saying he's refusing to discuss something serious which isn't quite the same.
It's not quite the same as lurking, but it's functionally indistinguishable. When something happens that's likely to drive scum under the radar, we should be looking out for that exact ploy. I'm not at all happy with giving Alice a meta clear here. Historically scummy play shouldn't make a person off limits. If anyone else had been the one lacking a vote by that point, I would've voted for that person instead.
The problem is deciding whether Tenshi was worth replying about and it is perceptively different as the various replies in this thread are pointing out. Finally, in the span of 11 hours between Tenshi and your post, how many others probably saw the thread and decided not to respond to Tenshi as you believe it deserved? Alice is just the easiest to single out, but I imagine you didn't make a list of all the other players who were online in that 11 hour period. While this definitely looked like an attempt to force RVS to end, anyone who does so is neutral in my book. I find your reasons standing out oddly.
The fact that no one even posted during that time is part of what made me consider this scenario. When there's a long period without any posts, you've got to consider that the last post in the thread has something to do with that. 11 hour gaps just aren't normal. The clearest explanation is that Moonspeak's post scared people away. The one above all that should have been expected to post in that interval was Alice Margatroid.
It was Days So's first vote, for a reason that didn't even have to do with the game much less scum hunting. How does this not qualify for RVS material?
It's the sort of thing that generally shouldn't be brought into the game, but it's not irrelevant to the game.
Also, Serp, you ignored my first question: Did you target Alice knowing he was on earlier today? And if so, why didn't you provide timestamps as evidence? Judging from your recent opinions on Alice, your vote seems to have been made without the knowledge that Alice wouldn't have too much time to post at the beginning.
I didn't check any signin timestamps. It skirts the border between in-game information and out-of-game information, so I don't like to do that. In theory, Alice could just have his homepage set to MotK or something. It's true that I didn't consider that Alice had said he wouldn't have frequent access. What I did consider was that his schedule would probably be on a roughly 24 hour cycle, and his last post was at 11:00 pm.
How is picking one joke vote and treating it as a genuine accusation a 'valid point'?
Whether it was a joke vote or not is still up in the air. I find it strange that you're now referring to the vote as though you're certain that it was a joke. In any case, what matters is how it looked, and I believe there was ambiguity there.
I'm also still waiting for Kiro to explain how adopting a wait-and-see attitude when the RVS stage has run out of steam is at all pro-town. Furthermore, for all the criticism of my case, I still haven't seen anyone say what they'd have done in my place. I ask again: would it have been better for the town if I had just passed another random vote? That'd just contribute to the lack of real leads. Should I have simply not posted at all? Lurking is not helpful. Was there a better case I could have pressed? If so, everyone else seems to have missed it too - every bit of genuine discussion today has drawn from my post or responses to it. I'm not asking you all to give me townie cred for taking literally the only pro-town action I could have, but at least keep in mind the options I had.
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You haven't said what you really thought about Tenshi, so saying that his was a 'unique opinion' is a little bit of a waffle, because that covers a lot of questionable ground.
"Unique" at least implies I thought he was the only one to hold it.
I also thought Tenshi's vote was a gag vote.
How is picking one joke vote and treating it as a genuine accusation a 'valid point'?
Is it really necessary to discuss this at this juncture? Let me pull up something you said earlier.
That isn't the point here. The point is that there's little reason to leave RVS if there's nothing worth discussing. Go into real voting with nothing worth talking about, and there's no way anything productive will come from the day.
Serpentarius sent us into real voting by giving us something to talk about. It's pretty obvious that we're going to get something productive from the day given the numerous reactions that have resulted. If this is truly what matters, as you claim (and, for the record, I agree with you), then why are you still picking at whether or not his reasoning was worthy for sending us into real voting?
Alice will get struck by GM lightning if she doesn't post, so...
##Unvote: Alice Margatroid
##Vote: Roukanken
I don't like how you seem to be rounding about on yourself in looking for something to attack Serpentarius with.
Also suspicious of Zakeri for piling onto Alice, three votes on him for nothing is weird and bad.
I find it curious that you skip over Jan-san completely given he did the exact same thing.
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Hey, I wouldn't be me if I didn't require a prod to post on D1 :V
Serp's elaboration on Moonspeak is slightly odd. It seems as if it's a needless overreaction, as it takes a random vote's reasoning seriously for no good reason. Moreover, where did it seem that Moonspeak's vote was actually serious? I'm not seeing it.
However, I'm not seeing why it's advantageous for A Scum to hold this position. All it seems to do is attract attention, rather than the classical scum behaviour which would be to try to blend in with the rest of the townies. It seems like overzealous townie behaviour at this point in time.
Normally RVS produces something clearly worth commenting on. This time, we had to reach a little more than usual.
Huh? We also came out of RVS after about half a page. Typically RVS lasts up to a page, sometimes even two. So I'm not sure why we "had" to "reach", unless we simply wanted to turbo out of that stage ASAP.
The clearest explanation is that Moonspeak's post scared people away.
Bzuh?!? Again, Moonspeak's post looks like classical RVS to me. Why there was an 11-hour long gap, I have no idea, but it could just be posting habits/coincidence. It's mildly weird but it's also not cause for alarm at this point in time.
I'm honestly a bit torn here. The delay is odd, but on the other hand, the exit out of RVS is forced. Despite this, Serpentarius *does* seem to have Townie intentions in the end, and moreover, I'm not seeing how anything he's done, despite being ~OvErDrAMaTiC As All FuC~, is actually outright scummy. Especially since it gathered an almost undue amount of attention on him.
@Zakeri: is your entire case on me based on lurking? If so, who else do you find scummy today?
Nietz seems a bit off, for reasons that Roukan mentioned. REALLY don't like Jan-san, who basically hops in and goes "oh hey I'll also lurk a lot then join, do a quick comment on Serp and then toss on a prod onto the other lurker for little reason" without commenting much on anything else that went on. Jan-san: opinions?
##Vote: Jan-san
Xan needs to exist, not sure why he's not also under fire. Same for Moonspeak, whom I'd like to clear this issue up right about now.
Ninja by a frog hat: I'm not seeing the Roukanken case at the moment. Not only does he not seem to be overtly attacking Serp, but his vote isn't even on Serp for that matter. Huh?
Relevant prods have been sent
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Moon's vote was pretty clearly a jokevote. Is this actually debateable? Also suspicious of Zakeri for piling onto Alice, three votes on him for nothing is weird and bad.
Serp Seems to think so. And I at least checked to see if Alice was lurking before voting for him.
Isn't that sort of contradictory?
If the contradiction comes from two sources, chances are it's a disagreement, not a contradiction.
That said, I don't like How Neitz seems to avoid giving any sort of definite opinion on this situation.
When there's a long period without any posts, you've got to consider that the last post in the thread has something to do with that. 11 hour gaps just aren't normal. The clearest explanation is that Moonspeak's post scared people away.
Now, I realize we're not all in the same time zone (Sup, Rou.) Or on the same sleeping Schedual, but this eleven hour period was from 11:00 P.M. to 10:00 A.M. the next day. I feel a much more simpler conclusion is that a majority of the people were sleeping through most or part of this time.
I didn't check any signin timestamps. It skirts the border between in-game information and out-of-game information, so I don't like to do that.
Okay, this is bad because it means you're reason for voting is for Lurking, at the expense on not being able to tell the difference between Lurking and being Inactive. Except ...
I had forgotten about that. Pre-arranged absences are by definition not a scumtell.
Here, you even admit that Alice's Lurking is not a scumtell. Basically, the only point you're holding Against Alice Effectively is that you believe Alice came on, saw the vote against Me, thought it was serious even though you're the only one who did think it could be serious, and choose not to post, risking being called out on not taking part of the RVS so that you would be less likely to call her out on ignoring Days So's random vote.
What is this I don't even?
I'm also still waiting for Kiro to explain how adopting a wait-and-see attitude blah blah blah...
Yes, we get it, it was the only thing you could do that looked pro-town. That was back then, though, what about now?
##Unvote: Alice Margatroid
##Vote: Serpentarius
@Zakeri: is your entire case on me based on lurking? If so, who else do you find scummy today?
It's An Alice~! :D If I remember correctly, my vote on you was because of your last sign in, which was two hours before Serp voted for you. So yes, it was.
Let's see ... well, I'm Finding Serp Scummy for trying to hold his position over a vote that's going for broke. Also, as I noted above, I don't like Neitz's posting style of "Well, that's sort of scummy, but I guess it's kind of a null tell, so I'm not going to say anything definitive and just lean back while everyone else does things."
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@Suwako:
Well, if it was to imply that he was the only one to hold it, then that wouldn't really be a judgment of value, because people can make unique bad opinions too. The thing is that you said that you thought Tenshi's vote was a gag one, and yet felt that Serp's vote was okay. Thus there's a little contradiction which I would like you to explain; why is Serp not scummy for making the 'unique' opinion?
## Unvote
## Vote: Suwako
---
@Serp:
The question here is not if you should have dropped another random vote, but your justification for going on a serious vote. No one would jump at Rou for voting someone he had never seen before, for example, thus the next person should have just made another random vote. And apparently, everyone saw it as a joke vote except you, so there's where the problem lies. While you veering off into Alice is not too bad, it's your suspicion of Tenshi which is the main issue here in my opinion, and why I disagree with you.
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@Alice: My vote on Roukanken is for this little exchange.
Roukanken #60 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52516#msg52516): "Your segue was weak. We need something meaty to end the RVS. Otherwise nothing will get accomplished."
Serpentarius #61 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52554#msg52554): "My segue generated discussion and many more opinions have cropped up. We've moved out of RVS as a result."
Roukanken #68 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52602#msg52602): "But your initial segue wasn't valid!"
Basically he's picking on Serpentarius for something that was actually what he (Roukanken) said was what needed to happen. The validity of Serpentarius's case on Tenshi, at least as Roukanken seemed to define it, is determined not so much by how plausible it was as a lynch case as much as whether it generated discussion or not. It did generate discussion, and yet Roukanken is still going after him for it, even if he doesn't have his vote laid down there.
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@Affinity: Because opinions that early in the game aren't black and white. I forget who mentioned to, but I recall someone, in the aftermath of the Umineko game, talking about town going after people for being stupid rather than being scummy. I think it's a lot more likely that Serpentarius simply held a misguided opinion, and misguided opinions aren't inherently scummy.
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That should say "I forget who mentioned it".
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Sorry, hadn't been sure on how to read the situation until now.
IMO, Serp's ending the RVS in response to Tenshi was valid. Tenshi's statement WAS discussion worthy. Not very, but at least it's a start. It's better than some of the reason's I've seen given for getting onto serious matters. His vote for Alice, however, makes me a little nervous, though I don't feel ready to act on it yet. Yes, Alice was lurking. Yes, we usually shouldn't excuse scummy play based on meta. However, Alice's meta is SO consistant on the issue of lurking that it is impossible to classify it as a tell in his case. The fact that everyone else is getting on the Alice wagon is particularly irritating to me, since Zakeri, and possibly Jan-san (not clear enough on how long Jan has been playing), are familiar with why Alice's meta generally causes people to tolerate his lurking.
Meanwhile, Carthrat has been unusually unproductive and quiet compared to my (albeit limited) previous experience with him. I would like him to contribute more. He currently seems to be active lurking, something I am familiar with, as I have been guilty of it in the past. I will say I appreciate the request for a votecount on every page, though.
##Vote: Carthrat
I also feel similarly about Neitz, but he, at least in my eyes, has given a bit more actual substance. I'd like a concrete stance, however.
We're letting go of something we never had.
Time goes so fast, UNVOTE is lost.
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What is this 'contribute more'? I said everything that needed saying. Everyone else is saying *too much*, christ. I'm not reading all this crap on day one unless ##'s are attached to it.
I did miss Jan being on the tail end of the AliceWagon there, and he's as suspicious as the rest. Brief glance through things has me more suspicious of Zakeri anyway at present. We've got him going 'Serp has a point voting Alice is okay', voting Alice, and now turning on Serp for trying to stick to his guns. What's up with that? You were backing him up before the kitchen got hot. Smells fishy to me.
##Unvote, ##Vote: Zakeri
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Damn! I had to go to school and then cram school so I didn't post. Also I thought you weren't allowed to double post so that's why I didn't post again.
I am going to read the posts first then post again (not editing)
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I'd like to know how Questioning and determining the reason for his votes until finally deciding that it was for a weak reason and that I felt Serp should have a little more to add right now than "Well, how else were we going to leave the RVS portion of the game?" counts as "Backing him up before the kitchen got hot."
What is this 'contribute more'? I said everything that needed saying. Everyone else is saying *too much*, christ. I'm not reading all this crap on day one unless ##'s are attached to it.
You'll be reading all this crap on day three, and if you haven't grasped the concept of day one bandwagoning, then trust me when I say it'd be easier to fill in the holes when there are smaller holes to fill in.
Cut by Days So: Actually, double posting is encouraged because you're not allowed to Edit posts.
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##Vote: Serpentarius
I find him extremely suspicious because he was voting against me for a RVS. Besides who would make a newbie to became a Mafia anyway? Or maybe he knew I was new to the game and thought he would have an advantage because I am a newbie. :(
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Nietz: You're still kind of noncommittal about Serp or anyone else for that matter. I'm not seeing any backbone in anything you're saying and it's sticking out like a sore thumb.
Serp: I am seriously not buying such explanations like Tenshi's vote scared people away (so you're the only one brave enough to post after him?) or that "the someone" expected to post in that interval was Alice. At that time, only you and Alice did not have a post in the game so ironically enough, people may also have been waiting for you as well.
The part about wait-and-see during RVS does not explicitly mean being passive. People start up the game with random votes and read responses or lack of responses. Without fail, someone will get serious eventually. My impression is that most people wait and see for that trigger. The difference comes in how long some people can bear to wait and may or may not be related to their alignment. Without wanting to get into a circular argument about that, anyone can cause a scene or stick their neck out and both sides have reasons for doing so. At the same time, both sides also have reasons to wait-and-see. It's not anti-Town to do so because you can almost be assured someone else will step up to stand out and at the same time, you don't become a distraction to the rest of Town.
I agree Carth should add more of his opinions on why he's keeping his vote on Serp as of his #66 and comment on other cases. He just did. And Zakeri has responded. Too tired to see the ensuing dialogue.
And I know someone said that Rou's vote isn't on Serp, but Rou actually intended his vote to be there on #54. All of a sudden can't find this post. Gah, I can't concentrate anymore. I'll think more about Suwako's case on Rou and the case on Suwako tomorrow although my first glance is that they're both based on nitpicking minor details.
Cut by Tenshi: The mods usually assign people their roles and alignments randomly. There's usually no bias in regards to whether a total newbie rolls Scum in his very first game so don't think you can use that reasoning here.
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Oh Tenshi, Serp wasn't voting you. You got to get your facts straight or people will question you on those errors. Maybe I'lll see a clarification of your case on Serp or someone else tomorrow morning.
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Nietz: You're still kind of noncommittal about Serp or anyone else for that matter. I'm not seeing any backbone in anything you're saying and it's sticking out like a sore thumb.
Serp: I am seriously not buying such explanations like Tenshi's vote scared people away (so you're the only one brave enough to post after him?) or that "the someone" expected to post in that interval was Alice. At that time, only you and Alice did not have a post in the game so ironically enough, people may also have been waiting for you as well.
The part about wait-and-see during RVS does not explicitly mean being passive. People start up the game with random votes and read responses or lack of responses. Without fail, someone will get serious eventually. My impression is that most people wait and see for that trigger. The difference comes in how long some people can bear to wait and may or may not be related to their alignment. Without wanting to get into a circular argument about that, anyone can cause a scene or stick their neck out and both sides have reasons for doing so. At the same time, both sides also have reasons to wait-and-see. It's not anti-Town to do so because you can almost be assured someone else will step up to stand out and at the same time, you don't become a distraction to the rest of Town.
I agree Carth should add more of his opinions on why he's keeping his vote on Serp as of his #66 and comment on other cases. He just did. And Zakeri has responded. Too tired to see the ensuing dialogue.
And I know someone said that Rou's vote isn't on Serp, but Rou actually intended his vote to be there on #54. All of a sudden can't find this post. Gah, I can't concentrate anymore. I'll think more about Suwako's case on Rou and the case on Suwako tomorrow although my first glance is that they're both based on nitpicking minor details.
Cut by Tenshi: The mods usually assign people their roles and alignments randomly. There's usually no bias in regards to whether a total newbie rolls Scum in his very first game so don't think you can use that reasoning here.
So it is 100% random? That sucks. Saying that made me more suspicious now..... *reads more Mafia Wiki* But I still find Serp still suspicious for thinking that a RVS was serious. But I ##Unvote: Serpentarius and ##Vote: Alice
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lol newbieomgus and it's not even correct. Kiro, don't coach him.
Zakeri: Gameflow reasons. It's intuitively weird that you dive off Alice onto a guy voting for him when you've stated over that you understand his reasons for doing so. I do think I'm off the mark now, though, it's wrong to say you're running from the heat when you, erm, are the heat. Yes. ##Unvote: Zakeri
Hmm. I'm still leery of the early wagon on Alice, lurking isn't even a reason at this stage of the game. It built too quickly for no good reason and while I can excuse Suwako and Zakeri a bit there by now, I can't do the same for Serp and Jan. Serp at least has the vauge excuse of "I'm just getting discussion going", which... eh, I've been there, even if I think he's too goddamned wordy and using too many REASONS for his early vote.
Jan's post was late on the train however and as tacky as any of them, thus he becomes the most suspicious person around. Saddening that he couldn't put out a vote for something someone had actually said. ##Vote: Jan
Moon what are you doing why are you voting Alice :/
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Tenshi: If it wasn't 100% random, some people would draw scum fairly often. It's better for everyone involved if there's that random element to keep things unpredictable.
Also, 'sup Alice. ##Unvote Alice
As to my opinions, I've got little more than Serp looking like trying-too-hard-to-act-town and Tenshi trying-too-hard-to-act-new, but I'll get something concrete after I sleep.
Cut by Carthrat: My only real reason for voting Alice was that it had been over 24 hours since her last post, nothing more. Since Alice has posted, I went and removed it.
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Moonspeak what the heck are you doing what is your reason for voting me I mean seriously what.
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The Fourth "Rocking da house" Vote Count
"SYNC.ART'S - tod und feuer" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToeTr1gDEOg)
Roukanken (1): Suwako Moriya
Affinity (0)
Carthrat (0)
Nietz (0)
Suwako Moriya (2): Roukanken, Affinity
Xan (0)
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0):
Serpentarius (2): Kiro, Zakeri
Alice (2): Serpentarius, 天使
Jan-san (2): Xan, Carthrat
天使 (0)
Not Voting (2): Alice, Nietz, Jan-san
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is in two days at 3 PM EST, Wednesday, August 5th
I hope the next post does not contain a vote. Just easier to do the countup for.
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Tenshi: If it wasn't 100% random, some people would draw scum fairly often. It's better for everyone involved if there's that random element to keep things unpredictable.
Also, 'sup Alice. ##Unvote Alice
As to my opinions, I've got little more than Serp looking like trying-too-hard-to-act-town and Tenshi trying-too-hard-to-act-new, but I'll get something concrete after I sleep.
Cut by Carthrat: My only real reason for voting Alice was that it had been over 24 hours since her last post, nothing more. Since Alice has posted, I went and removed it.
That actually means "I am active lurking and dropping meaningless votes past the time that's permitted", correct?
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When there's a long period without any posts, you've got to consider that the last post in the thread has something to do with that. 11 hour gaps just aren't normal. The clearest explanation is that Moonspeak's post scared people away. The one above all that should have been expected to post in that interval was Alice Margatroid.
What about the fact that the majority of the players would have been asleep around that time?
You're forgetting that there was still at least 48 hours left. To honestly think that there wouldn't be time in that for someone to make a post worth commenting on is a little jumpy.
Whether it was a joke vote or not is still up in the air. I find it strange that you're now referring to the vote as though you're certain that it was a joke. In any case, what matters is how it looked, and I believe there was ambiguity there.
I still can't understand how a claim of mistaken identity can be interpreted as anything other than a joke.
Serpentarius sent us into real voting by giving us something to talk about. It's pretty obvious that we're going to get something productive from the day given the numerous reactions that have resulted.
I'm not sure about this, personally, since more or less everyone agreed that the post was a joke:
how the fuck did you write so many words about nothing at all
Serp: I don't get why you thought Tenshi's vote was serious.
I didn't think (as probably most other people) of Tenshi's vote as anything other than a joke.
Tenshi clearly has no idea what the hell he's doing,
For the Record, what I would have said was "What's wrong with being me? :'("
I actually thought Serpentarius was fooling around and being comically overdramatic until I read his response to Kiro.
Also, Tenshi's vote looked like a random vote to me, so I don't understand what Serp is saying at all with his purple prose.
I don't think Tenshi was trying to make a serious vote.
Moreover, where did it seem that Moonspeak's vote was actually serious? I'm not seeing it.
In fact, the only person who seems to AGREE with you that Tenshi's post was worth commenting on is Xan. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52653#msg52653)
What I REALLY don't like about Serp's RVS-ending post, though, is how much it lectures Tenshi into not doing something like this again. This awkwardness only gets multiplied when I look at Tenshi's 'Vote Serp for suspecting my joke OH WAIT NO Vote Alice for pointing out I did something wrong'.
Besides who would make a newbie to became a Mafia anyway?
Soooooooo much WIFOM. -_-
Currently wondering about the possibility of a Serp/Tenshi pair, with the former trying to end RVS before his partner could actually say something worth talking about.
It did generate discussion, and yet Roukanken is still going after him for it, even if he doesn't have his vote laid down there.
The only discussion that vote generated was a wave of 'wait that's clearly a joke vote what the hell are you talking about Serp'. If he had just called out Alice on lurking that probably would've been fine by me, but the fact that more than half of the RVS-ending post is telling Tenshi 'don't do this, don't do that' really unnerves me. Indeed, his point on Alice assumes that Tenshi's vote is genuine, a point pretty much no-one else agrees with him on.
Nietz needs to give an opinion right about now, and I want Xan to explain precisely why he found Tenshi's vote so suspicious as to be worth commenting on.
Jan putting Alice to L-3 for not posting is sort of weird, especially since it was solely for lurking. I'll take a look at his 'concrete' case to see if he produces anything useful.
And since when was I voting Suwako? >_> (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52397#msg52397)
The Kitten may be Uncertain, but we're quite sure you didn't unvote
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When there's a long period without any posts, you've got to consider that the last post in the thread has something to do with that. 11 hour gaps just aren't normal. The clearest explanation is that Moonspeak's post scared people away. The one above all that should have been expected to post in that interval was Alice Margatroid.
What about the fact that the majority of the players would have been asleep around that time?
You're forgetting that there was still at least 48 hours left. To honestly think that there wouldn't be time in that for someone to make a post worth commenting on is a little jumpy.
Whether it was a joke vote or not is still up in the air. I find it strange that you're now referring to the vote as though you're certain that it was a joke. In any case, what matters is how it looked, and I believe there was ambiguity there.
I still can't understand how a claim of mistaken identity can be interpreted as anything other than a joke.
Serpentarius sent us into real voting by giving us something to talk about. It's pretty obvious that we're going to get something productive from the day given the numerous reactions that have resulted.
I'm not sure about this, personally, since more or less everyone agreed that the post was a joke:
how the fuck did you write so many words about nothing at all
Serp: I don't get why you thought Tenshi's vote was serious.
I didn't think (as probably most other people) of Tenshi's vote as anything other than a joke.
Tenshi clearly has no idea what the hell he's doing,
For the Record, what I would have said was "What's wrong with being me? :'("
I actually thought Serpentarius was fooling around and being comically overdramatic until I read his response to Kiro.
Also, Tenshi's vote looked like a random vote to me, so I don't understand what Serp is saying at all with his purple prose.
I don't think Tenshi was trying to make a serious vote.
Moreover, where did it seem that Moonspeak's vote was actually serious? I'm not seeing it.
In fact, the only person who seems to AGREE with you that Tenshi's post was worth commenting on is Xan. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52653#msg52653)
What I REALLY don't like about Serp's RVS-ending post, though, is how much it lectures Tenshi into not doing something like this again. This awkwardness only gets multiplied when I look at Tenshi's 'Vote Serp for suspecting my joke OH WAIT NO Vote Alice for pointing out I did something wrong'.
Besides who would make a newbie to became a Mafia anyway?
Soooooooo much WIFOM. -_-
Currently wondering about the possibility of a Serp/Tenshi pair, with the former trying to end RVS before his partner could actually say something worth talking about.
It did generate discussion, and yet Roukanken is still going after him for it, even if he doesn't have his vote laid down there.
The only discussion that vote generated was a wave of 'wait that's clearly a joke vote what the hell are you talking about Serp'. If he had just called out Alice on lurking that probably would've been fine by me, but the fact that more than half of the RVS-ending post is telling Tenshi 'don't do this, don't do that' really unnerves me. Indeed, his point on Alice assumes that Tenshi's vote is genuine, a point pretty much no-one else agrees with him on.
Nietz needs to give an opinion right about now, and I want Xan to explain precisely why he found Tenshi's vote so suspicious as to be worth commenting on.
Jan putting Alice to L-3 for not posting is sort of weird, especially since it was solely for lurking. I'll take a look at his 'concrete' case to see if he produces anything useful.
And since when was I voting Suwako? >_> (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52397#msg52397)
Thank you! Now I know more about mafia and what to do and what not to do :P
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You're still voting for alice and not telling us why. Man, actually, pop quiz time, what exactly did you learn, in your own words?
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Are you allowed theories in this thread? These are just my opinions so don't get offended :(
*Sherlock Holmes Mode ON*
##Unvote: Alice I changed my mind. Not going to vote, until some progression
My opinions:
Serp - Still suspicious (maybe he wanted to get the game started fast, so he make a overreacted post so that everyone would complain to him, but the person at the start who gets the most vote won't be lynched at the end because someone else will get the people's attention and then Serp would be saved)
Roukanken - doesn't seem or feels like a scum or a townie at the moment
Alice - Don't know why I voted him/her (now I feel like ass for making Unesco count and making Alice feel bad if s/he is a Townie).
I personally find everyone suspicious to some degree. Don't know why..... *shivers*
Or maybe I am just crazy.... (mostly likely this)
Edit: I learnt what WIFOM meant from Roukanken and that you need to have extremely long opinions on why I should vote people and that I need to back them up by quoting each of them. And also I mostly likely won't post for 12-15hours sorry.... :-[ And why are you guys crazy over one RVS vote? (and it was Pancake or Ramus (I think) that thought Zakeri was me, if anyone is curious)
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Alice - Don't know why I voted him/her
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/Roukanken/akihawhat.png)
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Alice - Don't know why I voted him/her
(http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm114/Roukanken/akihawhat.png)
Sorry grammatical error
Counterparting yours
(http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5572/dand.png)
I don't like imagespam that I can't see on my phone >:(
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and that you need to have extremely long opinions on why I should vote people and that I need to back them up by quoting each of them
all lies, a short paragraph explaining why will do in many cases, and additional text should be included only as necessary. further exploration of reasons occurs through discussion nobody agrees with me though.
So.
I thought Rou was talking out of his ass when he mentioned pairings so early. And then I realised that Moon actually kneejerk unvoted Serp, cutting himself off, quickly voted Alice and then vanished.
Given the way he's posting I can totally see him forgetting Serp is a buddy of his and suddenly feeling obligated to move his vote when he remembers/rechecks his PM. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Moon. I did think that if he was scum, he'd try and dream up some reason to have voted Alice, but if he's just trying to mobilize his vote...
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Okay, Moonspeak's play seems to me to be trying too hard to seem like a newbie. Yes, some of it is legitamate newb behavior, but seriously? Voting for someone for NO reason? Especially when you had given reason's why someone else's play made you suspicious? That's a bit hard for me to believe. I don't care if he's a new player, it should be blatantly obvious that if you accuse some one of something you have to give reasons- Not neccessarily strong reasons, but at least SOME reasons. I find this all highly suspect, and at the very least anti-town play.
##Unvote
##Vote Tenshi
I remembered to unvote this time.
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Sorry grammatical error
Wait, so your response to "alright, what the shit, why did you vote Alice with no reason, this is anti-town behaviour at best and scummy behaviour at worst, which are ultimately really the same thing functionally on Day freaking One", is "Sorry, grammatical error"? What?
Your play so far has been nothing BUT horribly anti-town and full of bizarre non-sequitors and extreme noob scum mistakes. Part of me thinks that nobody is this scummy, then I remembered ras255's first game and...yeah.
I'd like some actual opinions on who you actually think is scummy. No, you don't have to type up paragraphs, in fact too many words is bad. Just provide some reasoning why you think someone is scum. So far you have offered nothing of value whatsoever, despite posting far more than some of the "lurkers" in this thread so far, and weird connections between you and Serp, and you and Kiro worry me even more.
Therefore, ##Unvote, ##Vote: Moonspeak
@Unesco: for the votecount without a song, let me recommend Whatever the title of this is (I just call it Jimang Necrofantasia), by Jimang. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea_fAmpeZWI&fmt=18) It's quite easily my favourite vocal arrange of a touhou song.
I already added a song to that votecount. I shall consider this for a future one
EDIT:Oh fuck yeah! That guy does the Umineko ending theme!
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Alice - Don't know why I voted him/her
Reaction Image
Counter Reaction Image
Days So's is the most Unjustified response since ... since Serp's responce to Days So's random vote.
I learnt what WIFOM meant from Roukanken and that you need to have extremely long opinions on why I should vote people and that I need to back them up by quoting each of them.
Okay, for starters, all you really need to make a case is a list of valid points, one sentence long each (that are valid!)
Don't be put off by our words words words ability to complicate even the smallest details. In Fact, Simple is best, because then you'd know people are just talking from the other end of their digestive track when they ignore a list of simple points.
And finally, I can only forgive you for this once, but you have to make absolutely certain you have some reason for voting people. It's understandable to feel everyone is slightly scummy because going off of probability, we're all at least 30% Scum as far as town knows. Firing aimlessly doesn't work, though.
Let's see .... weird OMGUS, Weird, unjustified switch to Alice. Weird switch back to Serp without a vote. There's a lot here to justify a bandwagon, and judging from the people posting while I'm typing, it's a fairly easy bandwagon to leap onto. I'm interested in where this is heading.
One thing that does Urk me is people accusing other people of "Coaching" the newbie. Does that imply we should just let him sink instead of teaching him how to swim?
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So far you have offered nothing of value whatsoever, despite posting far more than some of the "lurkers" in this thread so far, and weird connections between you and Serp, and you and Kiro worry me even more.
I agree on the Serp/Tenshi connection, but would you mind clarifying the Kiro/Tenshi link?
But yes, Tenshi is just getting worse and worse with every post. Currently looking at a Tenshi/Serp lynch, but also want Nietz to HAVE AN OPINION and Xan to explain what exactly is so bad about Tenshi's post since he agrees with Serp on it. Waiting on Jan's 'concrete' case as well.
Zak ninja:
One thing that does Urk me is people accusing other people of "Coaching" the newbie. Does that imply we should just let him sink instead of teaching him how to swim?
Is it that much of a tragedy if a Mafioso drowns?
People learn by making mistakes, and that won't mean anything if we just let new players away with it because they're new. Plus coaching can be a distinct way for scumbuddies to advise each other during day in a game with no scumtalk.
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One thing that does Urk me is people accusing other people of "Coaching" the newbie. Does that imply we should just let him sink instead of teaching him how to swim?
Yes, on the grounds that while this is bad for the newbie, it's good for town for him to be wearing his thoughts on his sleeve than for him to just go 'well okay!' and blindly follow the instructions he's given; this applies double during day one in this very game, where potential scumbuddies would not yet have gotten a chance to coach him.
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I'll field that one, too.
Oh Tenshi, Serp wasn't voting you. You got to get your facts straight or people will question you on those errors. Maybe I'lll see a clarification of your case on Serp or someone else tomorrow morning.
is what I noticed.
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This statement feels sort of off. Serp's entire point is that not contributing is a scumtell because discussion is good for Town, and Nietz follows up with 'trying to start legitimate conversation is a nulltell because scum could do it as well'. Isn't that sort of contradictory?
Huh? How is it contradictory that I don't agree with Serp?
Nietz: If you don't think that Serp is worth suspicion, what about Alice? Is there anyone you have anything on right now?
I mentioned some points I found suspicious about him in that very same post. As for Alice, I don't find anything scummy about him so far. In fact, I'm more suspicious of everyone that jumped on Alice, since the case on him clearly wouldn't go anywhere and he was a good target for placeholder votes at the time. Zakeri and Jan both seemed to be doing exactly that.
I previously said I found weird Serp's attitude about proper town conduct during RVS. That got worse in his subsequent posts, as he insisted that Tenshi's post could have been taken seriously even when he was clearly the only one who seemed to believe. And particularly, his repeated statement that starting a serious case there was definitely the Pro-Town Thing To Do Even If It Hurts Me looks like trying too hard to be town.
Tenshi's behaviour though, is worse than everything else so far. Especially voting Alice then backtracking when questioned without even giving a decent reason. It looks like a newbscum behaviour if I ever saw one. Only thing that gives me some doubts about him is the past case of wrathie. Still, he tops my suspicion list right now.
##Vote 天使
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Is it that much of a tragedy if a Mafioso drowns?
>Implying someone is scum because they are stupid.
Laughingelfman.jpg
The problem with calling people out on coaching is that it assumes scumpairs because people are trying to help out the newbie. Yes, He's doing things that are legitimately scummy. Yes, he's being weird about who he's voting and why. Yes, he's a good bandwagon to start on. What I would find crueler than Telling him why what he's doing is wrong, is voting him and then not telling him what he's doing wrong.
Alice completely blows the Reaction image point out of the water with that accusation that all he can say about not having reasons for voting is "Sorry for the typo." I think this clearly illustrates the idea that he doesn't properly get why making certain you have reasons is an important part of voting.
Days So says something Stupid. Roukanken Gives him a funny look. It's now up to Days So, at this point to guess why Roukanken gave him a funny look, since it wasn't explained to him. Obviously he guessed wrong. Again, why would explaining how the game is played to him "Coaching" When it's obvious he needs to be "Coached" whether or not he has scum buddies to do so?
So what if We lynch Days So and he comes up scum? Does that mean we should then Lynch Kiro just for the little point Carth just now brought up?
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So what if We lynch Days So and he comes up scum? Does that mean we should then Lynch Kiro just for the little point Carth just now brought up?
No, but it does mean that Kiro warrants closer observation from now on. Since when did FoS turn into Daykill, anyway?
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I'm not sure about this, personally, since more or less everyone agreed that the post was a joke
And yet discussion about Serpentarius still came forth as a result of his vote, and discussion stemmed from that discussion, such as Kiro going after Nietz for not holding an opinion on him.
Tenshi is just all sorts of what. I have nothing new to add here, everyone else did a nice enough job already. I'd like to request a vote count so we can see exactly where we stand numerically in regards to him.
Nietz's response to accusations of not holding an opinion is to hop on a bandwagon. Smooth.
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Huh? How is it contradictory that I don't agree with Serp?
Because you wrote his opinion off as a nulltell despite thinking something pretty different.
Is it that much of a tragedy if a Mafioso drowns?
>Implying someone is scum because they are stupid.
Laughingelfman.jpg
I wasn't saying Tenshi is Mafioso because he's stupid. I'm saying that he could be Mafioso and as such we shouldn't just look over his mistakes.
The problem with calling people out on coaching is that it assumes scumpairs because people are trying to help out the newbie. Yes, He's doing things that are legitimately scummy. Yes, he's being weird about who he's voting and why. Yes, he's a good bandwagon to start on. What I would find crueler than Telling him why what he's doing is wrong, is voting him and then not telling him what he's doing wrong.
There's a difference between 'Tenshi is doing A B and C and thus he's scummy, vote Tenshi' and 'Tenshi, be careful. In those last posts you did A B and C. No vote'.
Alice completely blows the Reaction image point out of the water with that accusation that all he can say about not having reasons for voting is "Sorry for the typo." I think this clearly illustrates the idea that he doesn't properly get why making certain you have reasons is an important part of voting.
So...what? We ignore him and potentially let his actual scumtells slip by?
So what if We lynch Days So and he comes up scum? Does that mean we should then Lynch Kiro just for the little point Carth just now brought up?
Or Serp, given his strange reaction to Tenshi's post and Tenshi's following reluctance to vote back despite declaring his suspicions of him.
Jiraiya Frog Ninja:
And yet discussion about Serpentarius still came forth as a result of his vote, and discussion stemmed from that discussion, such as Kiro going after Nietz for not holding an opinion on him.
I'll accept this point, but my problem with Serp is that he saw Tenshi's post as the one to end RVS rather than his own based on a simple awkward silence and a joke vote. It feels paranoid, to be honest.
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##Unvote: Roukanken
##Vote: Nietz
The more I sit on this the more it bothers me.
Reporting (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52391#msg52391), sitting on fences (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52578#msg52578) and a bandwagon vote (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52838#msg52838). No, sir, I don't like it. Give us something original.
Cut by Roukanken: Fair enough.
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@Suwako:
While I agree with you on differences on misguided opinions and such, you haven't really provided reasons as to why it isn't scummy. Zakeri may have done the same thing as you did, but he did give extensive reasons, I think. But in any case, for now,
##Unvote
How are you not sitting on fences with regards to Serp, btw?
---
In any case, Moon is bewilderingly bad, but that is to be expected with wrathie as his coach. I don't particularly find him too scummy yet, since, after all, it is his very first game, and the talk about scumbuddies are all WIFOM in sheep's clothing; he could just as likely be clueless town. If he doesn't know what WIFOM is, I doubt he knows the function of a vote in this game after all, though yes, it still has to be counted against him.
More intersting to me are the people who jumped on him, espcially Xan who seemed to drop every single concern he had on Carthrat here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52653#msg52653)beforehand and suddenly bank everything on the Tenshi thing. It almost seems as if he is scum trying to capitalize on opportunities, especially since Carthrat didn't do anything but to deny him between the two posts. Therefore...
##Vote: Xan
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In any case, Serp's presence will be important as to his opinions on Tenshi. So is Jan-san's, since he always seems to have the habit of promising much and delivering little (or nothing at all). Zakeri's off-tangent about coaching seems really exaggerated (about the Kiro lynch) and doesn't seem right at all, especially when it doesn't do much to the game.
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To assume misguided opinions are inherently scummy is to assume townies never make mistakes in thought processes. I think we can agree that this is obviously not the case.
And if you really need it flatly spelled out for you, I do not think what Serpentarius did was scummy, and I do not think what he has done since is scummy.
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Tenshi is just all sorts of what. I have nothing new to add here, everyone else did a nice enough job already. I'd like to request a vote count so we can see exactly where we stand numerically in regards to him.
That's how I feel now too, but I promised something, so I'll deliver.
That actually means "I am active lurking and dropping meaningless votes past the time that's permitted", correct?
I mostly wanted to get some thoughts down before going to bed. I have meta working against me, so I have to at least make an effort to get online and post... Especially since this is my first game in a while.
I didn't see Tenshi as anything more than a newbie making all sorts of mistakes, but his random Alice vote does feel suspicious. Still, I'm not jumping on the wagon of what looks like a policy lynch because Serp still feels too-townie at the same time. I don't really think they're a scumpair either... More like Tenshi's kneejerk play was out of newbie worry.
Tenshi may be the policy lynch of Day 1, but I'd rather wait to vote. I don't honestly believe he's scum. I'm going to ##Vote Serpentarius because it feels like he may be scum trying to jump onto the first possible case.
As an aside, I don't see a problem in letting Tenshi know what's wrong if it lets him improve as a player.
Cut by 4 people:
There's a difference between 'Tenshi is doing A B and C and thus he's scummy, vote Tenshi' and 'Tenshi, be careful. In those last posts you did A B and C. No vote'.
Pretty much sums up why I think Serp is too-townie. A Day 1 vote can be seen as a warning, but Serp's reaction to a joke vote is what raised a flag to me.
So is Jan-san's, since he always seems to have the habit of promising much and delivering little (or nothing at all).
My bad. I'm interested in your case on Xan, though. I'm not switching my vote, but it's certainly worth following up on.
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The Fifth "Vocalise!" Vote Count
"Jimang Shot～高音質" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea_fAmpeZWI&fmt=18)
Roukanken (0):
Affinity (0)
Carthrat (0)
Nietz (1): Suwako Moriya
Suwako Moriya (1): Roukanken
Xan (1): Affinity
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0):
Serpentarius (3): Kiro, Zakeri, Jan-san
Alice (1): Serpentarius
Jan-san (0):
天使 (4): Carthrat, Xan, Alice, Nietz
Not Voting (1): 天使
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
天使 is at L-3
Deadline is in two days at 3 PM EST, Wednesday, August 5th
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@Suwako:
I can only assume you are either reading only half of each post or purposely misinterpreting them.
Not only I reiterated last post that I had an opinion on Serp, though it wasn't strong enough at the time, as I made my opinion clear on everyone involved after there was something to opine on. But since you just focused on the Tenshi vote, should I have avoided voting for the one who is by far the scummiest just because other people had as well?
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I wasn't saying Tenshi is Mafioso because he's stupid. I'm saying that he could be Mafioso and as such we shouldn't just look over his mistakes.
Then why did you word it as if it was common knowledge that he would flip scum when lynched? Or are you saying lynching him as town is still a better idea than teaching him how to play the game as town?
So...what? We ignore him and potentially let his actual scumtells slip by?
WHAT? Where did I say we shouldn't be helping him understand what he's doing wrong!?
More importantly, how is not understanding how what he did was scummy inherently scummy?
If we're going to spend every game going after newbies for making mistakes that they can't even tell are mistakes, then maybe we should start refusing Newbies and directing them Here (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11148) Instead.
To assume misguided opinions are inherently scummy is to assume townies never make mistakes in thought processes. I think we can agree that this is obviously not the case.
This. Seriously. This is actually part of my reasoning for voting for Serp - The fact that he seems to think he can get away with voting for anyone just by acting like he thinks it's the best possible vote he can make under the circumstances.
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Now, I realize we're not all in the same time zone (Sup, Rou.) Or on the same sleeping Schedual, but this eleven hour period was from 11:00 P.M. to 10:00 A.M. the next day. I feel a much more simpler conclusion is that a majority of the people were sleeping through most or part of this time.
Consider the same time period from last night. Look at all that activity. MotK never sleeps.
Here, you even admit that Alice's Lurking is not a scumtell. Basically, the only point you're holding Against Alice Effectively is that you believe Alice came on, saw the vote against Me, thought it was serious even though you're the only one who did think it could be serious, and choose not to post, risking being called out on not taking part of the RVS so that you would be less likely to call her out on ignoring Days So's random vote.
Yes, that's exactly it. It was a weak point to generate discussion from a stillborn RVS phase. Now that Alice has put forward a useful response, and everyone's reacted to my case in one way or another, it's really not worth holding anymore.
##Unvote
This is actually part of my reasoning for voting for Serp - The fact that he seems to think he can get away with voting for anyone just by acting like he thinks it's the best possible vote he can make under the circumstances.
You know, you still haven't answered my question about what you think would have been a better vote at the time.
Currently, I'm not liking the way that Roukanken has moved from "Serp's exit from RVS is scummy" to "Serp's coaching of Moonspeak is scummy." When you make a case against someone, and that case is refuted, drawing additional reasons from the original post you found scummy looks bad. I see Roukanken following his standard MO of "I think [X] is scum and therefore everyone he associates with is scummy." This is expected due to meta, but considering that you end up calling yourself out for it by the end of every game, Roukanken, maybe you should try to be a little more self-aware? :V
I'm also not satisfied with the coaching point itself. It's one thing to let a newbie wear his heart on his sleeve, but it's another entirely to let him be incomprehensible and useless. When we experienced mafia players call each other out on WIFOM, we're basically using shorthand for "This is what I think you're doing and this is why I think it's bad." Explaining the reasoning behind why a particular scumtell is considered a scumtell is meant to let the newbie follow the case against him and, if he has some townie reason for following that course of action, to allow him to explain it. The difference between coaching a newbie and telling an experienced player why you're voting for him is one of degree, not of kind.
Zakeri's bad for talking himself into a corner about how his own Alice vote is useless, then jumping onto my bandwagon. I wish he'd comment on more cases than just mine and Moonspeak's - he's trying too hard to defend the newbie. Jan-san is foremost among those players that don't have enough opinions. No, wait, I've been ninja'd, now he's on my bandwagon. And he's calling me too townie, and backing that up with a vote. Bleh. I'm not at all impressed with his reasoning there. I want to know just what he means by "too townie."
As for Moonspeak himself, he is clearly the safest lynch from a game theory perspective. He's made some moves that look a lot more like scum trying to follow the crowd than townie trying to find scum, and I really don't see him helping the town hunt scum over the next few days. We're getting into the last third of the day, and we should be settling on a lynch. I was hoping that we'd be able to come up with a better case than a D1 newbie lynch, but for all that I'm not too happy with some of the other players' conduct, I don't think that any of it is lynchworthy, and I think we should give them 'till Day 2 to see what they do.
##Vote Moonspeak (L-2)
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@Nietz: Your previous post about Serpentarius (the one linked with "sitting on fences") saw two conclusions from you.
Of course, a scum could do that just as well as a townie, so that was a null tell.
Could be scum making too much effort to look town, but I'm not too convinced right now.
Neither of these makes me think you actually felt strongly what you said. There's nothing concrete here.
Your second post was admittedly better in its reference to Zakeri and Jan-san, even given that Carthrat already went over them. The vote, however, just looks like a blatant bandwagon, and it's no problem at all for scum to hide behind "I'm just voting for who I think is scummiest" to try to justify a bandwagon vote. It also took impact away from your note about Zakeri and Jan-san, making your comments about them look like little more than a token attempt to contribute.
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Then why did you word it as if it was common knowledge that he would flip scum when lynched? Or are you saying lynching him as town is still a better idea than teaching him how to play the game as town?
Firstly, you're arguing semantics here, which peopel were calling me out for in Umineko.
Secondly, if I have no reason to believe he is a Townie - and at this point I don't - I don't see why voting him is a bad idea. Every post from him up to now has been full of poorly explained voting, sudden vote changes and generally saying nothing of any use.
WHAT? Where did I say we shouldn't be helping him understand what he's doing wrong!?
Yeah, that point was sarcasm if you didn't notice it.
I'm saying that if we immediately give him a free pass because he's a new player and don't suspect him as scum, then
1) We don't get our lynches and we lose.
2) Tenshi gets rewarded for playing badly which will obviously promote being a 'bad' player.
Thus the only logical way for him to learn is a School Of Hard Knocks method - when he makes a mistake, someone points it out and punishes him with a vote. Being too lenient on him because he's new helps no-one.
More importantly, how is not understanding how what he did was scummy inherently scummy?
At what point did I say that? I said that he could make mistakes trying to cover up the fact that he's scum, and based on your 'he's a newbie so he can't be held responsible for his actions' mindset he'd get away with it scot-free.
If we're going to spend every game going after newbies for making mistakes that they can't even tell are mistakes, then maybe we should start refusing Newbies and directing them Here (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11148) Instead.
How is this point productive? It feels like it's verging on AtE by complaining about newbies.
Oh whee, Serp ninja:
Currently, I'm not liking the way that Roukanken has moved from "Serp's exit from RVS is scummy" to "Serp's coaching of Moonspeak is scummy."
These are the same point. You used that post to exit RVS and at the same time pointed out to Tenshi everything he'd done wrong up until now. Plus I've been calling it coaching for a while. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52436#msg52436)
When you make a case against someone, and that case is refuted, drawing additional reasons from the original post you found scummy looks bad.
Again, I made the coaching point afterwards before your refutation. This doesn't qualify as an 'additional reason'.
I see Roukanken following his standard MO of "I think [X] is scum and therefore everyone he associates with is scummy." This is expected due to meta, but considering that you end up calling yourself out for it by the end of every game, Roukanken, maybe you should try to be a little more self-aware? :V
Analysing individual scumminess will only get you so far. Analysing relationships between players will get you closer to a final result because in the end that's what you're looking for - a scumteam, not a single scum. In Umineko, by attempting to analyse pairings on D4 I got closer to the actual Carth/Serp scumpair than I managed to get anywhere else in the game.
I'm also not satisfied with the coaching point itself. It's one thing to let a newbie wear his heart on his sleeve, but it's another entirely to let him be incomprehensible and useless.
People HAVE pointed out what he's doing wrong, and he's STILL incomprehensible and useless. If we go any further we'll practically be playing the game for him.
When we experienced mafia players call each other out on WIFOM, we're basically using shorthand for "This is what I think you're doing and this is why I think it's bad." Explaining the reasoning behind why a particular scumtell is considered a scumtell is meant to let the newbie follow the case against him and, if he has some townie reason for following that course of action, to allow him to explain it.
Can I not assume that before he showed up here Tenshi did a little research about the game? Can I not assume that he'd have the initiative to look up a phrase he didn't recognise rather than make us explain everything to him?
The difference between coaching a newbie and telling an experienced player why you're voting for him is one of degree, not of kind.
No, the difference is with coaching you don't hold the player responsible for his actions and cut him slack. How are you expected to learn if your mistakes aren't met with consequences?
##Unvote: Suwako
Vote: Serpentarius
Happy now, UK?
Nah, I'ma modkill you now for smarting off to the mod.
I'ma give you 0 for your essay if you gonna be like that
Ok, not really, yes, I'm happy you can follow the rules enumerated in the second post of the thread that I put there for your convenience ^-^
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So... just the mere fact I'm advising Tenshi is a no-no? My 3 sentences with their pieces of advice can be summed up as follows.
-I state a fact.
-Being accurate is important.
-Let's see a case with stronger points.
It's just me urging him to do better which is neutral advice. I'm not even remotely hinting at any person or viewpoint he should be angling for and he goes off and does worse even to completely ignore my point #3. I am torn though whether his dropping the case on Serp rather quickly and the unexplained switch to Alice is a sign of anything and I'm waiting for his response.
Currently wondering about the possibility of a Serp/Tenshi pair, with the former trying to end RVS before his partner could actually say something worth talking about.
That reasoning's a bit of a wild speculation. It assumes that Serp would have known Tenshi would say something silly in the future which was not a given at the time Serp ended RVS. And then Serp went and declared Tenshi's vote was something serious and voted Alice. I'm not saying that the scumpair is invalid, but the reason you gave is not clicking for me.
Not sure of Carthrat's thought processes in regards to his voting. He votes Serp first, briefly goes on Zakeri regarding Zakeri switching from Alice to Serp, votes Jan after initially missing him on the end of the Alice wagon, and gets on Tenshi because he suspects a ScumTenshi could have forgotten about a ScumSerp being his buddy. I think your voting record is really fluid and your vote on Zakeri doesn't really match up with your votes on Serp and Tenshi. I'm not sure if it's worth pursuing now, but it stuck out a bit.
Xan's, Alice's and Nietz's vote for Tenshi all kind of flowed together although the reasons are slightly different. Xan has it for him not giving reasons for his vote, while Alice and Nietz are actually calling it noobscum behavior. Not sure why Alice wants to use the comparison of ras255 (I'm assuming ras was scum in this game Alice was referring to) when you could also use the example of Nuclear Fusion (Town) last game. It's a bit of weird selective justification that wasn't necessary to divulge to the rest of us.
Noticed Jan-san's vote for Serp and it doesn't seem too convincing. Voting someone for acting Too Townie to be Town is weak.
Mods: Can we get an updated votecount? Also, the one at #112 has Nietz on Tenshi and Nietz not voting. Can that get fixed please?
Checking it out now. Fixed
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Kiro: The line of your post that annoys me the most is this:
Maybe I'lll see a clarification of your case on Serp or someone else tomorrow morning.
This isn't forceful enough, plain and simple. If you think his case on Serpentarius is really that unclear, why is that not a point against him and instead something to just brush aside lightly?
That reasoning's a bit of a wild speculation. It assumes that Serp would have known Tenshi would say something silly in the future which was not a given at the time Serp ended RVS. And then Serp went and declared Tenshi's vote was something serious and voted Alice. I'm not saying that the scumpair is invalid, but the reason you gave is not clicking for me.
It isn't the only reason I gave - remember, I mentioned Tenshi's hasty unvote of Serp onto Alice earlier. This point was just possible reasoning for why they'd do something like that.
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This isn't forceful enough, plain and simple. If you think his case on Serpentarius is really that unclear, why is that not a point against him and instead something to just brush aside lightly?
Because if you check his vote reason, it's something made in error. He said he was voting Serp because Serp had voted him. In other words, his case on Serpentarius is unclear because there's a factual mistake. The point against him is that he made a mistake and he needs to clarify his case in light of the mistake. I'm not forceful because I want to see what he thinks once he realized there was a mistake.
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Again, I made the coaching point afterwards before your refutation. This doesn't qualify as an 'additional reason'.
That was after my refutation, too. We were discussing the particulars at that point, but it was after I had explained that I was using a weak discussion point to draw us out of RVS, and my explanation to Moonspeak should've been read the same way regardless of your initial misreading of Moonspeak's vote.
Analysing individual scumminess will only get you so far. Analysing relationships between players will get you closer to a final result because in the end that's what you're looking for - a scumteam, not a single scum. In Umineko, by attempting to analyse pairings on D4 I got closer to the actual Carth/Serp scumpair than I managed to get anywhere else in the game.
Forgive me for coaching you, Roukanken, but there's a big difference between looking for scumpairs in LyLo and looking for scumpairs on D1. By LyLo, the vast majority of things that people are going to say over the course of the game have been said. Evidence has had plenty of time to stack up, so it makes sense to pick your cases and stick with them unless a new post is incredibly scummy or there's no hope of a lynch unless a compromise is reached. D1, your early cases are probably being made on the basis of one or two posts. Maybe that case will stay viable, and maybe it won't, but it ought to be re-examined when there are more cases popping up to compare it to. Basically, my gripe isn't that you're making scumpair theories, it's that you're doing it while tunneling.
People HAVE pointed out what he's doing wrong, and he's STILL incomprehensible and useless. If we go any further we'll practically be playing the game for him.
It did turn out that way, but there's a difference between incomprehensibly useless posts and scummy posts.
Can I not assume that before he showed up here Tenshi did a little research about the game? Can I not assume that he'd have the initiative to look up a phrase he didn't recognise rather than make us explain everything to him?
Well, searchable phrases like WIFOM fall into that category, but stuff like posting evidence from private information is only obvious once you've seen everyone play for awhile. When I first got here, I came from a mafia forum where private communication was allowed, and Moonspeak's play so far really wouldn't be out of place there. He's bad and scummy and worthy of lynching, but not unbelievably so.
No, the difference is with coaching you don't hold the player responsible for his actions and cut him slack. How are you expected to learn if your mistakes aren't met with consequences?
This seems to be a recurring theme today. Some honest mistakes betray scummy intent. Some don't. Moonspeak's first post looked like the latter to me.
Anyway, something more now that I've done another readthrough:
Jan-san seems to have chronic bandwagon rider syndrome. First he jumps on Alice for not much reason, jumps off that wagon when it starts to go south, then jumps on me, and his reasoning hasn't been compelling. In fact, I think he's produced about as much useful content as Moonspeak, just with less newbiness. Why did he drop back down to L-7, again?
##Unvote
##Vote Jan-san
I'm up for both lynches, but I think my vote is more useful here. Moonspeak's bandwagon showed up really quickly, and Jan-san's bandwagon evaporated really quickly. That's worth considering, at least.
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Serp - Still suspicious (maybe he wanted to get the game started fast, so he make a overreacted post so that everyone would complain to him, but the person at the start who gets the most vote won't be lynched at the end because someone else will get the people's attention and then Serp would be saved)
Forgot to mention this in my above post - this is what stood out to me as a sign that he's doing some critical thinking here. This is the point that Nietz called a null-tell, and the reason I didn't demand town credit for forcibly closing RVS, but here he seems to be putting it in his own words.
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@Nietz: Your previous post about Serpentarius (the one linked with "sitting on fences") saw two conclusions from you.
Of course, a scum could do that just as well as a townie, so that was a null tell.
Could be scum making too much effort to look town, but I'm not too convinced right now.
Neither of these makes me think you actually felt strongly what you said. There's nothing concrete here.
And there was nothing concretely suspicious at that point. Was I supposed to pretend having a strong opinion?
Your second post was admittedly better in its reference to Zakeri and Jan-san, even given that Carthrat already went over them. The vote, however, just looks like a blatant bandwagon, and it's no problem at all for scum to hide behind "I'm just voting for who I think is scummiest" to try to justify a bandwagon vote. It also took impact away from your note about Zakeri and Jan-san, making your comments about them look like little more than a token attempt to contribute.
And it's no problem for scum to let a townie dig his own grave without getting involved either. The points on Serp, Zakeri and Jan were things I noticed while catching up with the thread, I was leaning towards voting Serp for the reasons I mentioned when I came to Tenshi acting like a completely clueless scum and trying to cover it up. I still hold my points about the others, but why should I ignore Tenshi's meteoric scum-rise just because he was the last to show up on the list?
Not much more to say about the case right now, as he hasn't posted since, and I don't see much point in the discussion about helping newbies being scummy or not.
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I wish he'd comment on more cases than just mine and Moonspeak's
Now that you've backed off your point, You'll get your wish.
##Unvote: Serpentarius
he's trying too hard to defend the newbie.
It's kind of hard to tell people their reasoning for voting for someone is bad and NOT defend the person they're voting for at the same time. Should I just let any bandwagon I feel is scummy go forth?
No, I'm actually asking this question. I use to think that was a bad idea until the last game where everyone was too busy trying to lynch said person to notice I had caught scum.
I will concede that if Days So doesn't start shaping up before the end of day 1, he's worthy of the day's lynch and will vote/hammer accordingly, But I still feel somethings wrong for voting for someone who doesn't know how to act like a townie whether he is one or not.
Yeah, that point was sarcasm if you didn't notice it.
I didn't. Thanks for pointing that out.
I'm saying that if we immediately give him a free pass because he's a new player and don't suspect him as scum, then
seriously, how much do you think a free pass is worth? If you say until Lylo, I'm putting you down on my blacklist for the rest of the game.
Analysing individual scumminess will only get you so far. Analysing relationships between players will get you closer to a final result because in the end that's what you're looking for - a scumteam, not a single scum. In Umineko, by attempting to analyse pairings on D4 I got closer to the actual Carth/Serp scumpair than I managed to get anywhere else in the game.
Let's take a closer analysis of this point, even ignoring that fact that this only works during lylo or after we've lynched scum (You know, after we have solid evidence). You pulled up the Serp/Carth scumteam point, and then dismissed it due to a single bus attempt and went after Sodium. I on the other hand had taken a look at Serpentarius' posts and saw some Subconscious Scummy intent, and voted while making a case based on it. Which of us wound up being closer to targeting scum than the other?
People HAVE pointed out what he's doing wrong, and he's STILL incomprehensible and useless. If we go any further we'll practically be playing the game for him.
83: First instance of Days So getting his scummy play explained to him (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52686#msg52686)
93: Days So's mistake becomes apparent (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52744#msg52744)
98: Second instance of Days So getting his scummy play explain to him (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52804#msg52804)
Can I not assume that before he showed up here Tenshi did a little research about the game? Can I not assume that he'd have the initiative to look up a phrase he didn't recognise rather than make us explain everything to him?
You call my point of refusing newbies and sending them to Mafiascum to play games designed to teach them "AtE", yet you fully expect them to play as if they've been through two or three of those kinds of games already?
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And there was nothing concretely suspicious at that point. Was I supposed to pretend having a strong opinion?
Would it really have been that hard to have an opinion? Why were you trying to avoid having an opinion that wasn't "Strong" enough earlier in day one, when bad opinions are easily excusable?
And it's no problem for scum to let a townie dig his own grave without getting involved either.
No, but it probably wouldn't hurt to throw in a vote. Especially if you have yet to throw one around.
alright, Looking back now...
Neitz 53 - points out two flaws in Serp's voting, Then Unvotes. You don't bother to find something worth putting your vote on, nor do you bother to explain why you're not voting for Serp even with the points of the bad case and the WiFoM.
Neitz 65 - Suwako already pointed out what's wrong with this post. Two Null Tells on the same person, and still no effort put into looking at anyone besides Serpentarius.
Neitz 103 - pokes suspicion onto me and Jan-san by putting out the opinion that the Alice vote was worthless. This would be worth more if you had presented your opinion of the Alice bandwagon while it was happening. Also, your vote on Days So worries me, since it was made during the "Let's all bandwagon Tenshi/Moon" phase of the game.
I'd like to see what you think about more than just Serp, Days So, and bandwagons that have already failed. Right now, though, it's worth a vote.
Carthrat 49 - Brings up a serious point on Serpentarius, but in such a drastic way that I had to check the next post before taking this one seriously. I can't tell if this is real outrage or not. Also, Votes Serp.
Carth 66 - Doesn't think Alice is necessarily Scummy, thinks Days So's vote is obviously a joke vote. I like this post up until the prod on me, Ignoring Jan-san (already discussed) but also doesn't bring anything up of Serp or Suwako's vote, even though Suwako left his random vote due to Alice not having spoken up. Why focus mainly on the third vote even though Suwako also had no intention of making the number any lower?
Carth 78 - Tell's everyone to talk less :V. Or use less words, I'm guessing? Admits Jan-san is as suspicious as the rest of the wagon. Then continues to turn his attention to me. mentions my vote switch to Serp for him focusing too much on Alice, even though I voted Alice as well. Vote switches from Serp to Me.
Carth 85 - Explains his reason for tunneling me, but unvotes due to my take charge attitude thus far in the game. Continues with the Alice Bandwagon theory, and chooses to go after Jan-san who he felt was the only one with no business on it. Votes Jan-san.
Carth 89 - Accuses Jan-san of Active lurking, Which he is.
Carth 92 - Question's Days So's vote and what he learned.
Carth 92 - Changes his opinion on whether or not scumpairing should be used on day one in order to suggest a Serp/Days So pairing. If this is true, what of your opinions on the Alice bandwagon now? He's apparently dropped it, since he unvoted Jan-san and voted Days So.
Carth 101 and 102 - says coaching is bad because then the newbie wouldn't be giving his raw opinions. And he was before? :V
Basically, It was easy following along a townie thought process behind Carthrat's voting up until the wall that was Days So, where he drops everything and starts up a "Serp and Days So are Scum, End of Game." Attitude. I can't really imagine what would cause him to spout out post 92, but I imagine if there is an answer to that, it will become apparent later in the game. To be honest, I figured there would have been much more to look at for someone who's changed his vote four times in two days.
And Since Xan has only made two posts, I might as well throw in his analysis free of charge.
Xan 77 - Says Days So's vote was worth enough discussion to get us out of RVS. Gets a bad vibe from Serp's vote on Alice, but chooses not to say anything definite on it. He accidentally WiFoM's all over himself, which I think is less him trying to confuse others, and more actually confusing himself. He does go along with Carthrat's suspicion against Me and Jan-san.
Votes Carthrat for not Contributing much, with Neitz following closely behind on contributing a little bit more. This actually fits in nicely, since it was the post before Carthrat started to actually get active.
Xan 97 - for all his opinion in 77 was worth, he drops everything and focuses on Days So. He actually presents his reasoning in a compelling manner, but it's still for reasons similar to Carthrat's, and it still adds a weird fluidity to the bandwagon on Days So.
Basically, I can see the beginnings of a townie trying, but I would definitely need to see more from him before I decide if we shouldn't lynch him.
Basically for all it's worth, Neitz is the one I'm most worried about, so I'll ##Vote: Neitz
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@Nietz: Your previous post about Serpentarius (the one linked with "sitting on fences") saw two conclusions from you.
Of course, a scum could do that just as well as a townie, so that was a null tell.
Could be scum making too much effort to look town, but I'm not too convinced right now.
Neither of these makes me think you actually felt strongly what you said. There's nothing concrete here.
And there was nothing concretely suspicious at that point. Was I supposed to pretend having a strong opinion?
Other people didn't seem to be having too much of a problem.
Zakeri already covered the second half of your post.
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About the coaching issue, I really abhor the slippery slope argument that Rou and Carth seem to be pursuing about 'playing the game for him'. There is a difference between finding a person's mistakes genuinely scummy or not, and 'coaching' has nothing to do with it. After all, as Zakeri said, it's not as if a person can learn through a piece of advice. I don't find coaching to be as much of a scumtell as people make it out to be.
Jan-san's post... isn't satisfying for reasons Serp already raised. Also seems to be agreeing with every single bandwagon that came up today. But I'll wait for Xan to post first.
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I see everyone is accusing me of being a scum........
Guess being on the Cirno board for too long has made me actually stupid
I think one of the people who voted me is a scum and is trying to make me look bad but for the moment I won't vote.
If I was a newbie scum. The situation would have been a lot worse by me saying something like "I vote *name* because he wrote on he post *something suspicious that didn't make*" unless a scum helped me in which my posts will have been better if I was a scum because the scummies would have told me how to post properly and not get caught. But if that happened and I became would became suspicious for being pro like.
Now you guys would be like "huh" because suddenly I wrote about something, which has never happened so you guys assume that this is a different person or a scumbuddy is helping him because he is write properly. But that couldn't be possible because this is the way I talk if you have read all my post. Then you guys will think "well couldn't someone close to him write it for him?"
I also would have told the scums that I was a newbie and I needed help then I would have listened to their instruction which I will look less suspicious unless somebody actually knew that I was newbie some how and would vote for me for being too good at Mafia despite being a newbie.
Also the scummies wouldn't risk using me as a bait since there are only about 3-4 mafia and if I get caught and got lynched there would only 2-3 people left which would lower the amount of people there are in the mafia unless they wanted to me to get lynched on purpose which wouldn't be very nice and if that happened I would of quit this game already.
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The Sixth "Break out the beats" Vote Count
TASUKETE EIRIN!!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8rs5fSvKO0&feature=related)
Roukanken (0):
Affinity (0)
Carthrat (0)
Nietz (2): Suwako Moriya, Zakeri
Suwako Moriya (0):
Xan (1): Affinity
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0):
Serpentarius (3): Kiro, Jan-san, Roukanken
Alice (0):
Jan-san (1): Serpentarius
天使 (4): Carthrat, Xan, Alice, Nietz
Not Voting (1): 天使
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
天使 is at L-3
Deadline is in less than one day at 3 PM EST, Wednesday, August 5th
Forgot to change to Unesco. FFFFFFFFF
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Tenshi, all those hypotheticals don't really get into the main thing people want to know, which is who you think is Scum.
If you think one of the people voting you is Scum, point out who you think is most likely and give a reason. Or if you think there's a person who isn't voting you is more likely to be Scum, you can also do the same thing. There isn't that much time left for Day 1 so you got to have an opinion and put it down with a vote. Not voting is usually considered anti-Town behavior because it suggests you don't have a good opinion because you could be Scum who knows everyone else's alignment already.
Reminder
5) Days have a deadline of 72 hours. A deadline extension of 24 hours may be granted by a majority vote once per day.
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TASUKETE ERIN!!!!!!!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8rs5fSvKO0&feature=related) this is a good song for me
And where Roukanken's vote I can't see it
My mistake in the count was pointed out
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Due to the helpful reminder:
##Vote Extension
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##Vote Extension
Alright, I admit this looks really poor but I think I might want to step away from the Serp argument for a while now. I've beaten it into the ground and to be honest it only really holds true if Tenshi flips scum, so at he very least it should be left until later.
##Unvote: Serp
seriously, how much do you think a free pass is worth? If you say until Lylo, I'm putting you down on my blacklist for the rest of the game.
Anything greater than 0 is a free pass. Let him off on Day 1 and he'll do the same on Day 2, then on Day 3...Wrathie's probably a great example of the mindset that sets in here.
I on the other hand had taken a look at Serpentarius' posts and saw some Subconscious Scummy intent, and voted while making a case based on it. Which of us wound up being closer to targeting scum than the other?
Did I defend my case on Serpentarius with various logical fallacies?
Also, define 'subconscious', because from here it sounds like a euphemism for 'gut'.
You call my point of refusing newbies and sending them to Mafiascum to play games designed to teach them "AtE", yet you fully expect them to play as if they've been through two or three of those kinds of games already?
No, I expect them not to sit around and stay confused. I expect them to look up words they don't recognise, not go through entire games before they show up here. I want Tenshi to know the meaning of words like WIFOM and Lylo, and he doesn't need to play full games for the sake of doing that.
About the coaching issue, I really abhor the slippery slope argument that Rou and Carth seem to be pursuing about 'playing the game for him'. There is a difference between finding a person's mistakes genuinely scummy or not, and 'coaching' has nothing to do with it.
Okay, so what's the difference between a scummy mistake and a non-scummy mistake? If you raise a reasoned argument against a player who ends up flipping Town, it could be a genuine Townie messing up or scum successfully pinning the blame on someone else.
After all, as Zakeri said, it's not as if a person can learn through a piece of advice.
OF COURSE PEOPLE LEARN THROUGH ADVICE. When people tell you 'stop doing this' and explain why it's a bad thing, what happens? If you have half a brain cell you stop doing it. Why is Mafia anything more than a set of rules to follow? 'If player X does this, X is scummy' and so on?
Okay, where do I start with this latest Tenshi post?
I think one of the people who voted me is a scum and is trying to make me look bad but for the moment I won't vote.
General accusation, trying to accuse several people without even having the nerve to name them.
If I was a newbie scum. The situation would have been a lot worse by me saying something like "I vote *name* because he wrote on he post *something suspicious that didn't make*" unless a scum helped me in which my posts will have been better if I was a scum because the scummies would have told me how to post properly and not get caught. But if that happened and I became would became suspicious for being pro like.
This is horrible. Scum do NOT win by outright lying, they win by causing town to misinterpret the facts. They don't make things up out of the blue and expect you to believe them on no evidence.
Now you guys would be like "huh" because suddenly I wrote about something, which has never happened so you guys assume that this is a different person or a scumbuddy is helping him because he is write properly. But that couldn't be possible because this is the way I talk if you have read all my post. Then you guys will think "well couldn't someone close to him write it for him?"
So, all you've proven is that you wrote this yourself? The fact you're explicitly pointing that out is WIFOM at best.
I also would have told the scums that I was a newbie and I needed help then I would have listened to their instruction which I will look less suspicious unless somebody actually knew that I was newbie some how and would vote for me for being too good at Mafia despite being a newbie.
'I'm a new player therefore I can't POSSIBLY be scum'. Blatant fallacy.
Also the scummies wouldn't risk using me as a bait since there are only about 3-4 mafia and if I get caught and got lynched there would only 2-3 people left which would lower the amount of people there are in the mafia unless they wanted to me to get lynched on purpose which wouldn't be very nice and if that happened I would of quit this game already.
This is horrible too. You must be Town because if you were scum no-one would be voting for you?
You know what, forget it. Your posting is horrible, and if we don't lynch you now you'll just spew more of this junk further down the line and we'll have to lynch you anyway.
##Vote: Tenshi (L-2)
In other news, I'm also kinda irritated at Nietz.
And there was nothing concretely suspicious at that point. Was I supposed to pretend having a strong opinion?
No, you were supposed to have an opinion. If your post is nothing but 'it could be this but it could be that' it's explicitly avoiding actually saying something either way.
Where did Jan go?
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Still think Moon is scummiest around. I get that he's a newbie. His particular brand of newbishness seems more scummy than most.
Also the scummies wouldn't risk using me as a bait since there are only about 3-4 mafia and if I get caught and got lynched there would only 2-3 people left which would lower the amount of people there are in the mafia unless they wanted to me to get lynched on purpose which wouldn't be very nice and if that happened I would of quit this game already.
This in particular stands out, it very much reads as though he's thinking about this purely from the scum perspective, which is far more informative on newer players than them making faulty arguments on other people.
I am also not happy with Jan voting for Serp for targeting Moon, because Serp did not actually vote for Moon until after Jan mentioned that. Jan's post makes no sense. Go read it and note where it is in relation to Serp's. I'd be okay with lynching Jan.
I don't think we need an extension. I don't really see why one is ever necessary in day one.
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Hi Alice. Bye Alice. >_>
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Other people didn't seem to be having too much of a problem.
Would it really have been that hard to have an opinion? Why were you trying to avoid having an opinion that wasn't "Strong" enough earlier in day one, when bad opinions are easily excusable?
Wait, you are seriously saying I should've made stuff up just because it was "excusable"? I guess that would be fine if I was scum, but not if I'm trying to actually assess the cases properly.
And for all that Zakeri's post was big, the only thing he presents against me is post summary, repeats some points I've already answered and adds that he's "worried", which sounds like an afterthought to justify a vote.
I'm not feeling any better about Tenshi, Rou has already pointed out pretty much everything that's wrong with him, but it's his saying things to the effect of "I think someone is scum trying to frma em but I won't say who." and "I know you'll say I'm scum because of what I said, but I wrote it myself so that proves I'm town." only makes my belief in his being a noobscum stronger.
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About 3 hours left for the day. I think.
Three and a half, actually. This should be interesting ^-^
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Yeah, that's a lot less time than I thought we had. >_>
So, at such short notice about the only lynch we can really hold before deadline is Tenshi, and unlessly someone explicitly stops it he'll be lynched anyway according to the rules. Do we go for it or do we take an extension?
Personally I think he's shown no Townie qualities and thus he's worth lynching. >_>
Part my failing for putting days in vote counts, not hours, but part your fault for not paying attention to the deadline time in every votecount
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I feel that moonspeak's latest post pretty much confirms my suspicions at this point. It's all WIFOM and really, really bad logic. At this point all his play is anti-town when not outright scummy.
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Okay, so what's the difference between a scummy mistake and a non-scummy mistake? If you raise a reasoned argument against a player who ends up flipping Town, it could be a genuine Townie messing up or scum successfully pinning the blame on someone else.
The way I see it, some mistakes are inherently scummy, like OMGUS'ing someone. That's because scum are more likely to do it unintentionally. Their highest priority is to keep themselves from being lynched, so they're more likely to panic and lash out when accused. Unscummy mistakes are ones that don't betray scummy intent, like mis-reading a votecount. Sure, in some circumstances, it could benefit scum to pretend to make the mistake, like pretending to think that a person is at L-2 instead of L-1 and then placing a vote on him, but in general, scum are no more likely to make those particular mistakes than townies.
Anyway, Moonspeak's got a lot of examples of scummy quotes, and more importantly, a scummy lack of opinions on anyone but himself. It's all been addressed already, so there's not much for me to add to the case against him. I doubt we can get together enough support for an extend, and I'm not sure that it'd be helpful to do that anyway. Moonspeak is just our best option for lynch at this point.
The way that Moonspeak describes in detail what he'd do if he were scum makes me think that he's been thinking a lot about what he could have done better. Do they have a concise scumtell name for when a person points out that if he were scum, he would've played way better?
##Unvote
##Vote Moonspeak (L-1)
Too scummy to be scum mayhap? But I can't find a wiki link.
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Well, Tenshi didn't get around to making a case after all. And I don't think he's going to be active till our current deadline.
I am available to hammer him within the next 2 hours. Gonna see if anyone has any other questions to ask about others and do another quick reread. I'll think about Serp more tomorrow.
##Unvote Serpentarius
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@Roukan: still here.
My opinions on Moonspeak still have not changed. Don't like him at all, don't like a lot of his specific mistakes, still think he's also the best lynch from a purely informational standpoint.
My other choice for lynch today is Jan-san, for reasons others have gone into great detail about already, but to summarize: where the heck is he, and why have most of his actions today been gratuitous jumping onto bandwagons?
Nietz's inability to hold a clear, concise opinion is worrying, especially considering how scum-Nietz works (see GWU, etc). Definetly someone to keep a close eye on during D2 onwards.
Vote stays.
Also, I agree with Carthrat when I think that an Extension on Day Freaking One is both idiotic and pointless, especially at this point in time.
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@Nietz: I'm saying you should have had an opinion at all. Like I said, other people didn't seem to have a problem with it.
I have no objection to the Tenshi lynch after that latest post, and don't really see a need for an Extension because I can't see anyone else getting lynched. Hammer isn't necessary by the rules but I'm willing to do it anyway if people like.
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Days So's last post is disheartening, since it basically just says to me that he's not trying to understand what he's been doing that makes us want to vote him.
Announcing intent to hammer before I have to leave at 2:45 today (15 minutes before deadline.) Actually, scratch that, I'll just let one of the other four people not on the bandwagon, or the autolynch rule pick it up.
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Anything greater than 0 is a free pass. Let him off on Day 1 and he'll do the same on Day 2,
Alright, I understand your point, but-
then on Day 3...
*facepalm*
I give up.
Also, define 'subconscious', because from here it sounds like a euphemism for 'gut'.
Subconscious: a human's ability to do something without realizing it, i.e. Serpentarius was acting Subconsciously Scummy because he felt at the time that he was playing as he would a townie when I'm certain he wasn't.
...What exactly is the point of sticking buzzwords like "Gut" In there? I'm calling full blown Misrep here, why did you try to make it sound like I was wrong?
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Neitz:
Wait, you are seriously saying I should've made stuff up just because it was "excusable"? I guess that would be fine if I was scum, but not if I'm trying to actually assess the cases properly.
Except how are we suppose to tell if you're assessing cases properly if all you say is "Null Tell" In regards to a single case for two posts? Especially considering you didn't even comment on the other case that was happening at the same time until after it had been resolved!
And for all that Zakeri's post was big, the only thing he presents against me is post summary, repeats some points I've already answered and adds that he's "worried", which sounds like an afterthought to justify a vote.
So my case on you is invalid because...? Because I worded it as if i was reading through your posts while I was typing it up?
My case on you as it were was that you seem to have trouble commenting on anything besides Whether you think Serpentarius is a Null Tell or a Null Tell, or why ObvScum Easy target Days So is worthy of your vote. You've provided almost nothing of worth unless you count repeating Carthrat's opinion on Me and Jan-san.
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Anything greater than 0 is a free pass. Let him off on Day 1 and he'll do the same on Day 2,
Alright, I understand your point, but-
then on Day 3...
*facepalm*
I give up.
What's the problem here? It'll keep going as long as you let him off with it, won't it? Unless you see any obvious signs of improvement in him, which I certainly don't.
Subconscious: a human's ability to do something without realizing it, i.e. Serpentarius was acting Subconsciously Scummy because he felt at the time that he was playing as he would a townie when I'm certain he wasn't.
Alright, I misunderstood your point here. I thought you meant that your suspicion of him was subconscious on your part. Never mind.
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I'm tired of waiting and a roleclaim is probably a bit too much to ask for given who we would be asking it of. Let's just see a flip already.
##Unvote: Nietz
##Vote: Tenshimoonspeakdayssowhatever
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Hammer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace) SHUT UP!
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The Seventh "Jazz Funeral" Vote Count
Afternoon tea in Shanghai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shf874gi3CI&feature=PlayList&p=694C8845F5EEAE62&index=6)
Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Carthrat (0)
Nietz (1): Zakeri
Suwako Moriya (0)
Xan (1): Affinity
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (1): Jan-san
Alice (0)
Jan-san (0)
天使 (7): Carthrat, Xan, Alice, Nietz, Roukanken, Serpentarius, Suwako Moriya
Not Voting (2): 天使, Kiro
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
天使 has been LYNCHED!
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Alright! I'm back from shopping! I found the CUTEST human ears at this one display! So, how are you all...e-ooh...you all really messed up that 天使 guy, didn't you...
Well, that's just +1 souls for me! And how do you feel about this, ZUN?
ZUN: I bet that bastard stole my music! Probably was going to try to steal my beer tonight as well!
Me: Now now, you haven't even let me check out what was in his soul before you made these accusations!
ZUN: wait, you can read souls? Well why not just do that now and we don't have to kill people...well, except the people that stole my music, but they aren't really people anyway! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatMeasureIsANonHuman)
Me: Um...they have to be dead first.
ZUN: Well fat lot of good YOU are, figment of my imagination! Seriously, why couldn't I have imagined Satori here!
Me: Master doesn't have time to waste finding your music...I just came here cause I'm bored.
ZUN: You know, maybe I really oughtta lay off the beer...
Ah well! Let's see what can be said about 天使...
Hmm...
Oh well! Looks like 天使 was actually Azure & Sands, Townie Jazzy Jailkeep! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2GnKXwKraA&feature=related) He did not steal any music it would seem.
Ah well! I like jazz, I'll enjoy this soul!
Oh yeah, for all you perverts who like to do funny stuff at night, send your night actions to Unesco...whatever that means!
Night will end between 24 and 48 hours from now. Remember, if you don't send in a night action, it gets randomized decided by the direction Tewi's spinning carrot lands on.
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*YAAAAAAAAAWN!* I'm awake, and so are some of you other people...but some of you don't seem to have woken up yet...well, I suppose with all the crazy stuff going on it's hard to get some sleep, nyaa~!
Anyway, ZUN is most assuredly awake and still complaining about everything including his lost music (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GiantSpaceFleaFromNowhere)...
ZUN: Dammit, you all were retarded yesterday...as if someone as cool as Azure and Sands would need to steal my music!
Orin: Mmm...well, his soul tasted good...well, what was left of it...he put a lot into his music...
ZUN: And you shut up! It's bad enough that my music is stolen, I don't need delerium tremens on top of it!
Orin: I keep telling you, I'm REAL!
ZUN: Yeah, as if I'd believe that!
Orin: Don't make me scratch you!
ZUN: Whatever...just...whatever...
Anyway, it seems everyone has had time to get up...but someone is missing? Hmm...let's see...
OOH! There's a soul in Carthrat's room! Dibs!
/me pushes her cart up to Carthrat's hotel room, takes his soul, does a quick scan and tosses it in. Then she returns to the dealer's room's extradimensional space.
Ahem...Carth is dead. His soul was very metal. He also didn't steal your lame ass music ZUN...but alas,
Carthrat, UI-70, Townie MetalMixer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB1AHrQy9Hs) has been beaten to death
You all should get on finding that culprit, ne?
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The Eighth "Start of Day 2" Vote Count
The Ultimate Grilled Meat Restaurant! Orin's Hell Eatery! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXUfHEXxxTk)
Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Nietz (0)
Suwako Moriya (0)
Xan (0)
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (0)
Jan-san (0)
Not Voting (10): Roukanken, Affinity, Nietz, Suwako Moriya, Xan, Kiro, Zakeri, Serpentarius, Alice, Jan-san
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch
Deadline is in 72 hours at 1:00 PM EST, Monday, August 10.
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So, we don't get flips on made-up roles?
Anywho, in terms of players flaring up in wake of the Tenshi flip I'm really awkward of Nietz. In particular I'm not fond of how until then he had more or less no opinion, then jumps on Tenshi (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52838#msg52838) stating exactly what everyone else has already said about him. Most of his posts afterwards are mostly defensive (here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52873#msg52873), here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52995#msg52995) and here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53421#msg53421)) with the only sign of an opinion being in the last one with 'Zak actually didn't say anything useful'. Hell, in that post he even admits 'Rou has said everything about Tenshi' and doesn't even BOTHER looking for any new points.
##Vote: Nietz
In second place in terms of scumminess to me is probably Xan/Jan-san (wow, it rhymes~!). Xan is guilty of jumping on the Tenshi lynch with amazing fervor here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52793#msg52793) and then proceeding to produce pretty much nothing for the remainder of the day, but a semi-meta read of him makes me sort of reluctant to make him my primary lynch. Jan-san isn't much better, saying 'Tenshi is trying too hard to act new (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52692#msg52692)' and then 'Tenshi is obviously new, and Serp looks bad based on Too Townie (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52868#msg52868)'. Except that Too Townie is a well known FALLACY. Again, the fact that it's Jan makes me uncertain of actually lynching him first and foremost, because compared to him Nietz should really know better than to stay neutral so far into Day 1.
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So you think I'm suspicious for being half-assed regarding Tenshi, and Xan for being too serious about it? How does that work?
You, for that matter, were quite prolific in finding reasons to lynch Tenshi here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53358#msg53358), and as you pointed out, I even admitted there wasn't anything new I could point.
Except that Too Townie is a well known FALLACY.
A "fallacy" that won him last game, which is why I was suspicious of his Do The Right Townie Thing on Day 1 in the first place.
Affinity and Jan-san kept a cautious distance of the Tenshi wagon, both of them basically suggested it was not a good idea, and they both preemptively attacked Xan and Serp for going after him. Affinity had a little more in way of presence and opinion, though mostly centered on people attacking Tenshi.
I was more suspicious of Carthrat and Zakeri overnight, but I was obviously wrong about the former, and my main point against Zakeri was that he voted me here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53113#msg53113) despite just stating a bigger list of suspicions against Carth.
Nietz's inability to hold a clear, concise opinion is worrying, especially considering how scum-Nietz works (see GWU, etc). Definetly someone to keep a close eye on during D2 onwards.
This was weird considering that Tenshi's lynch was almost a certainty by that point, and had he flipped scum I would be considerably less suspicious for going after him when I did. This whole comment seems based on the notion that he would flip town.
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So you think I'm suspicious for being half-assed regarding Tenshi, and Xan for being too serious about it? How does that work?
Xan was being half-assed too - he made one post saying 'Tenshi is really really terrible' and the best he gave in terms of reasoning later was 'these last posts have confirmed my suspicions'.
You, for that matter, were quite prolific in finding reasons to lynch Tenshi here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53358#msg53358), and as you pointed out, I even admitted there wasn't anything new I could point.
So there was nothing worth saying about anyone else at all anywhere? My point was that most of your posts consisted of defending your opinion and there was a severe lack of actual hunting.
So you think I'm suspicious for being half-assed regarding Tenshi, and Xan for being too serious about it? How does that work?
You, for that matter, were quite prolific in finding reasons to lynch Tenshi here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53358#msg53358), and as you pointed out, I even admitted there wasn't anything new I could point.
Except that Too Townie is a well known FALLACY.
A "fallacy" that won him last game, which is why I was suspicious of his Do The Right Townie Thing on Day 1 in the first place.
Affinity and Jan-san kept a cautious distance of the Tenshi wagon, both of them basically suggested it was not a good idea, and they both preemptively attacked Xan and Serp for going after him. Affinity had a little more in way of presence and opinion, though mostly centered on people attacking Tenshi.
I was more suspicious of Carthrat and Zakeri overnight, but I was obviously wrong about the former, and my main point against Zakeri was that he voted me here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53113#msg53113) despite just stating a bigger list of suspicions against Carth.
This was weird considering that Tenshi's lynch was almost a certainty by that point, and had he flipped scum I would be considerably less suspicious for going after him when I did. This whole comment seems based on the notion that he would flip town.
You were 4th on the wagon, so...yeah. Plus you're assuming that bussing is impossible if he HAD flipped scum.
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Xan was being half-assed too - he made one post saying 'Tenshi is really really terrible' and the best he gave in terms of reasoning later was 'these last posts have confirmed my suspicions'.
So by "with amazing fervor" you actually meant "half-assedly"?
So there was nothing worth saying about anyone else at all anywhere? My point was that most of your posts consisted of defending your opinion and there was a severe lack of actual hunting.
There was, and I did say everything relevant I thought about. Most of my defending was actually having to repeat answers to the same repeated accusations.
You were 4th on the wagon, so...yeah. Plus you're assuming that bussing is impossible if he HAD flipped scum.
It would be quite silly add momentum to his wagon with what you claim was weak reasoning, when the objective of bussing is making it look as real as possible.
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Through the night I was most suspcious of Xan and Jan-san, especially the earlier due to the fact that he did not respond to anything I said here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52861#msg52861), and general tunnel-vision. Jan-san also does not have much in the way opinion even on Tenshi or Serp; he relies on 'too townie' arguments which don't hold up to scrutiny at all, and pretty much endorses any bandwagon that comes his way.
I didn't endorse the Tenshi vote yesterday on the account that he did put in some effort at critical thinking as Serp has raised; he seemed more genuine than people like Xan and Jan-san who jumped for very bad reasons.
Also Rou, what do you think of Serp now?
##Vote: Xan since he commented on far les than Jan-san.
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where did everyone go?
Still holding my Case over neitz for right now, so ##Vote neitz
I was more suspicious of Carthrat and Zakeri overnight, but I was obviously wrong about the former, and my main point against Zakeri was that he voted me here despite just stating a bigger list of suspicions against Carth.
Would you mind clearly defining your case on me then?
Also, I'm tempted to offer you a Bran Muffin for the comment on me having a bigger list of suspicions on Carth. I commented at the end of reviewing his posts that I needed more information on him before I could decide if he was acting with scummy intentions or not. The key difference between Carthrat and You & Xan was that He had actually provided opinions and had analysis in his votes before Badwagoning Days So.
You could have made the Argument that I should have Voted Xan, but really voting for either of you would be a flip of the same coin.
This was weird considering that Tenshi's lynch was almost a certainty by that point, and had he flipped scum I would be considerably less suspicious for going after him when I did. This whole comment seems based on the notion that he would flip town.
Vote for a Vote
FoS for a FoS
Does this mean you think Alice is scummy solely because he said you were scummy after the day one Lynch was decided? This point seems out of place to me, because I could only see it this way if I already thought Alice was Scum.
So by "with amazing fervor" you actually meant "half-assedly"?
Xan is guilty of jumping on the Tenshi lynch with amazing fervor here and then proceeding to produce pretty much nothing for the remainder of the day,
You know what? Here. Take a Bran Muffin anyway.
I don't disagree with anything in Affinity's post except this:
I didn't endorse the Tenshi vote yesterday on the account that he did put in some effort at critical thinking as Serp has raised; he seemed more genuine than people like Xan and Jan-san who jumped for very bad reasons.
I hope you realize this means nothing unless you said it before Days So's Flip.
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*Sigh*, And if I'd had my way I wouldn't have even made that said half-assed post. Unesco (both halves) pressured me into posting while I was chatting on IRC, even though I had nothing to say, because I personally was and still am not understanding the whole coaching business, and I haven't noticed anything else worth discussing. I was confident in my vote for Tenshi. Confidence that was misplaced, apparently. Since Affinity is complaining about me not answering his ealier question, my Carthrat vote was a prod. It was pretty clearly a prod. Once he actually responded and started saying something of relative value, I had no reason to keep my vote on him. Not to mention my vote was never actually ON him because I forgot to unvote Jan-san >_<. Tenshi seemed like a more concrete case than Carthrat, since Tenshi's behavior was pretty anti-town.
At the moment, I'm not sure where to place my vote, so I'm not going to yet.
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So by "with amazing fervor" you actually meant "half-assedly"?
He made one post with said fervor. One post <> a case.
There was, and I did say everything relevant I thought about. Most of my defending was actually having to repeat answers to the same repeated accusations.
Declares general suspicion of Serp and calls him on WIFOM, then proceeds to not vote. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52391#msg52391)
Serious discussion is a nulltell. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52578#msg52578)
Too serious discussion, Serp trying too hard to be Town...but Vote Tenshi because he's worse. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52838#msg52838)
Rage at Suwako for pointing out his lack of an opinion on Serp. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52873#msg52873)
ADMITS that he didn't have an opinion early on, tries to argue that there was nothing worth talking about. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52995#msg52995)
Claims that people are suggesting he make an opinion up because obviously he can't thinkfor himself. Makes a comment on Zakeri not actually producing much, but since Zak just voted him this is most likely reactionary. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53421#msg53421)
It would be quite silly add momentum to his wagon with what you claim was weak reasoning, when the objective of bussing is making it look as real as possible.
WIFOM.
Also Rou, what do you think of Serp now?
Most of my suspicions were of how he and Tenshi so narrowly avoided each other, but given that they can't be buddies he doesn't seem so bad anymore.
*Sigh*, And if I'd had my way I wouldn't have even made that said half-assed post. Unesco (both halves) pressured me into posting while I was chatting on IRC, even though I had nothing to say, because I personally was and still am not understanding the whole coaching business, and I haven't noticed anything else worth discussing. I was confident in my vote for Tenshi. Confidence that was misplaced, apparently. Since Affinity is complaining about me not answering his ealier question, my Carthrat vote was a prod. It was pretty clearly a prod. Once he actually responded and started saying something of relative value, I had no reason to keep my vote on him. Not to mention my vote was never actually ON him because I forgot to unvote Jan-san >_<. Tenshi seemed like a more concrete case than Carthrat, since Tenshi's behavior was pretty anti-town.
At the moment, I'm not sure where to place my vote, so I'm not going to yet.
Congrats on giving no scumhunting material AT ALL. T_T
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Argh, thinking about Tenshi's flip is making me second-guess myself because all of the votes came after that one really stupid post which makes scum bandwagoners harder to pick out from townie scumhunting.
This actually makes me feel slightly better about Nietz when combined with the apparent effort put into his first post of today, though I notice that he still hasn't dropped a serious vote on anyone that wasn't post-self-destruction Tenshi, which works to nullify the small good feeling.
...And at the end of said post he's trying to use his placement on the wagon to argue that scumTenshi would have given him townie cred? What? No. In retrospect Tenshi was a lost cause the instant he admitted he forgot why he voted for Alice and hypothetically-fellow scum voting there is very plausible. Bad logic is bad. ##Vote: Nietz
As for the other two names being thrown around, I don't like Xan's latest whole-bunch-of-nothing post and I don't like the way Jan has been ostensibly useless so I'll probably look more into them later. Everyone else...I get an odd vibe fom Roukanken's first Day 2 post but a resulting case from that would depend on Nietz flipping town and well uh yeah. No one else stands out to me.
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CAUTION! CAUTION!
Headbanging Raven Sign [Wall of Radioactive Text]
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After a long reread and some rethinking, the person I'm finding the most likely to be scum right now is Zakeri. You left your vote on Alice when it looked like you would pursue Serp; I don't see why given the reasons you put forward, why you felt an Alice prod was still more prudent than being firm about Serpentarius. Then in #72:
Serp Seems to think so. And I at least checked to see if Alice was lurking before voting for him.
Here, you even admit that Alice's Lurking is not a scumtell. Basically, the only point you're holding Against Alice Effectively is that you believe Alice came on, saw the vote against Me, thought it was serious even though you're the only one who did think it could be serious, and choose not to post, risking being called out on not taking part of the RVS so that you would be less likely to call her out on ignoring Days So's random vote.
What is this I don't even?
These 2 in the same post look hypocritical to me. You prod/vote Alice for lurking and then fault Serp for what is essentially Serp's belief that Alice was lurking.
Your #99, #104, and #114 is pretty heavy commentating and very little scumhunting. During all this, you actually say very little about Tenshi's innocence or guilt despite going off about people coaching him. In #114:
This. Seriously. This is actually part of my reasoning for voting for Serp - The fact that he seems to think he can get away with voting for anyone just by acting like he thinks it's the best possible vote he can make under the circumstances.
I never got the impression Serp thought like how you said above. And everyone who votes usually thinks it's the best possible vote they can make under the circumstances. I don't get what you're trying to insinuate with the above statement. You then unvote Serp in #124... what for? Because you're going to generate cases on other people? I don't see Serp's case being lessened with anything in that period unless you count Serp unvoting Alice and voting Tenshi. There's more discussion that's not really scumhunting before you get onto points about Nietz and Carthrat. And frankly, it's mostly summary and your main point isn't much: Nietz isn't providing opinions. How did that overshadow your suspicions on Serp, to the point that you don't mention Serp at all before Tenshi's flip and afterwards going into Day 2?
Neitz:
Wait, you are seriously saying I should've made stuff up just because it was "excusable"? I guess that would be fine if I was scum, but not if I'm trying to actually assess the cases properly.
Except how are we suppose to tell if you're assessing cases properly if all you say is "Null Tell" In regards to a single case for two posts? Especially considering you didn't even comment on the other case that was happening at the same time until after it had been resolved!
I don't recall any case being resolved... what got resolved Zakeri? I find this statement, or at least the spirit of this statement, to be pretty bad. Bandwagons do not necessarily fail because the case died, sometimes they slow down because other cases pick up. Looks like you're trying to set him up.
Summary: Your pressing on Serp is highly inconsistent with your vote pattern and some of your arguments and the unvote and switch to Nietz feels really unnatural. There's a long discussion about Tenshi, but has more to do with what to do about those coaching Tenshi rather than talk about whether he's Scum or not. It was surprisingly continuous to the point of it being a distraction as it did nothing to influence the actual case on Tenshi as if it was a foregone conclusion. I feel it's just Scum talking about nothing and not really pursuing anything of worth. And your ignoring Serp from the end of Day 1 going into Day 2 is sticking out.
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Onwards to other cases. Regarding Alice: I noticed you vote Jan-san in #71 for the standard reasons. But what I think stands out to me the most is your #87 when you question what Tenshi was doing and make no comment about Jan-san's post above yours including his unvote. For someone who was unhappy about Jan-san, you are suddenly quite single-minded in your pursuit of Tenshi. That single-mindedness gives me the impression of scummy intent, that you're just itching to vote Tenshi, but also don't want to jump on too quickly. And to reiterate my point from before, you justify your vote saying "nobody is this scummy, but I remembered about ras255" is rather selective thinking. But we were wrong about Nuclear Fusion last game and we're wrong about Tenshi this game. Your evidence there is faulty. I think you were trying too hard to look ok while voting Tenshi so I find your vote on his bandwagon the most telling. And then at the end, you just state you're going to go after Jan-san again. See below about why I'm wary of that.
I can fault Jan-san for all the reasons everyone else is doing, but you know what, I'm not feeling it's the right lynch. The waffling is anti-Townie, but the one theme he's been consistent on is he thought Tenshi was Townie. If you're saying he's been bandwagon hopping, he actually has not been on the one bandwagon we know to be incorrect so far. The Serpentarius vote is kinda bad, but by examining his reason, I'm seeing Jan-san as someone not sure of stuff, but not changing his story to make himself look more or less Townie. His actions might look scummy, but I'm not sensing the intent. In other words, he feels honest and trying not to be a distraction which is a good sign to me. Obviously, he does need to be more firm with his cases, but if I feel he maintains this vibe I have of him, I'm not going to vote him.
Suwako and Affinity are both interesting for being bystanders to both Tenshi and Serp. In other words, I don't have a read on them which is troubling and I feel they need to be vetted more. Affinity does seem to comment a bit more about Tenshi though and his case on Xan in #109 is original yet not bad. Suwako, however is really reserved and defers most of his opinions to what people before him said once the Tenshi bandwagon got going. This can't continue. Also on reread, I didn't necessarily like his case on Roukan on a point that didn't look like it would go far and the case on Nietz feels a little half hearted for some reason.
I'm not sure how to judge Rou; he would have been pretty high on my suspicion list if Tenshi flipped Scum, but now he's kinda neutral. Xan and Serp are also feeling neutral and I'd like to see their Day 2 cases to re-evaluate both of them. Xan's lack of one is meh, but I'm not feeling it is effective scumhunting to just directly target the ones that don't have a case. It's a lazy way of Scumhunting, and in some cases, too easy for Scum to misdirect the Townies into a mislynch. Xan is not at the threshold yet of being explicitly scummy for his own actions imo.
Nietz never really committed to a firm opinion on Serp, but there is an actual opinion there even if it's borderline on the fence. And given how I've sorta lowered my priority on Serp, I'm willing to let him pass on that as the ambiguity Nietz had is sorta understandable. But mainly, I like his hunches on Zakeri in #103 and #135 for pretty much the main reasons in the above case on Zakeri. So I disagree about him not contributing at least. And his point on Alice in #152 is interesting. Because Alice claims Nietz can't hold a clear and concise opinion which is incorrect because he had one on Tenshi. So I think his suspicion on Alice has some foundation. His not actually bringing the case on Zakeri or Alice first with a vote at the start of Day 2 is a little troublesome, but he technically had those thoughts before me. Could be Nietz bussing, but if I had to pick between Zakeri and Nietz, I'm voting Zakeri.
Zakeri and Alice are my top two choices at the moment. Suwako and Xan I'm eyeing a bit more as well. Rou: if you think Nietz was not looking for new points about Tenshi, I would say Suwako is actually a worse offender who let others dictate the discussion about Tenshi.
##Vote Zakeri
Cut by Suwako: Can you point out where Nietz is arguing ScumTenshi would give Nietz Townie cred?
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Sure.
Nietz's inability to hold a clear, concise opinion is worrying, especially considering how scum-Nietz works (see GWU, etc). Definetly someone to keep a close eye on during D2 onwards.
This was weird considering that Tenshi's lynch was almost a certainty by that point, and had he flipped scum I would be considerably less suspicious for going after him when I did. This whole comment seems based on the notion that he would flip town.
Bolding mine.
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Though I guess that doesn't say "townie cred" so much as "not look as bad". I probably parsed the latter to the former in my head when writing the post.
I still disagree with that logic, though, regardless of which interpretation one takes.
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Hrm, I see. Not a good idea for him to make that assumption. We'll see what Nietz has to say about that.
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Wanted to get this before I leave.
Rou: if you think Nietz was not looking for new points about Tenshi, I would say Suwako is actually a worse offender who let others dictate the discussion about Tenshi.
The difference is that Nietz voted for Tenshi while I didn't (at least not until the hammer). Roukanken is going after Nietz for not bringing anything new to the table about Tenshi and then voting him anyway. I didn't bring anything new to the table about Tenshi either, sure, but that was because I felt my vote was better served elsewhere at the time. Serpentarius did something similar with his vote for Jan-san.
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Alright, nothing about Moonspeak's and Carthrat's flips have made me think any more highly about Jan-san. Of all the players, I think he's given the fewest real opinions, and none of those have been satisfying. He keeps coming back to the too-townie point against me, which is trash in itself, and hasn't pushed a single original case yet. Basically, textbook bandwagon hopper syndrome.
As I see it, Nietz might as well have been active lurking for the first half of the first day. Too much defending himself and not enough scumhunting. His eventual vote on Moonspeak was understandable, but it's the only case he ended up voting for, and he was the fourth one on that wagon. Today, he raises a decent point against Alice, but hasn't put down a vote, so I'm not sure whether he intends it as a case or what.
Xan's votes against Carthrat and Moonspeak were perfectly fine, in my opinion, though I wish he had posted more often. What isn't fine is the way he disavows that Carthrat vote and blames it on the mod. >_> The complete lack of an opening Day 2 opinion is bad here too.
At the beginning of the day, I thought that Jan-san's conduct was the worst, but Xan and Nietz have both kind of blown off attempts to get them to actually commit to an opinion since then, while Jan-san hasn't appeared yet. When he shows up, I'll take a look at his post and make what I can of it. Until then, Xan seems to be in more dire need of a prod to do something today.
##Vote Xan
As for the other cases brought up by Kiro's post, during my re-read last night I found Zakeri's unvote of me a little strange too, but ultimately decided that it was consistent with his earlier statements. I'll let him defend himself, but he still isn't really on my scummy list. Pretty much the same goes for Alice. I think that a lack of opinions is the biggest scumtell, even aside from the fact that it deprives the town of information. The big difference between scum and town is that town are looking for scum, while scum are just pretending to look for scum.
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Wall of Text on how Zakeri is Obvscum.
wat
Okay, one thing you should know is that I consider Active Lurking different from Inactive Lurking. Basically, When I voted Alice, My gut reaction was to vote Serp for the ObvBad prod on Alice. I noted that he said he had checked the timestamps, so I decided to check them myself to see if Serp had more of a point. Coincidentally, There was evidence Alice had been on earlier, as I noting in post 55 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52404#msg52404). Afterwords, When I learned Serp had not bothered to Check if Alice even had the chance to respond to Days So's vote, I felt that he was giving equal punishment to inactivity as lurking, which added onto the "Votes for a bad, wifomy reason" point. I was faulting Serp for basically voting with no evidence other than semi-baseless assumptions.
As for the Comments on Coaching, I was legitimately PO'ed about the bandwagon on Days So by the time it came around in full. Last Game, one of the morals of the story was to stop lynching people just because they don't know how to play the game. The first thing we do this game? Lynch someone because he doesn't know how to play the game. I didn't make any guesses on his alignment because for all his posts were worth worth it was a crapshoot.
just a side note rereading my posts. I need to stop using so many damn commas.
I never got the impression Serp thought like how you said above. And everyone who votes usually thinks it's the best possible vote they can make under the circumstances. I don't get what you're trying to insinuate with the above statement.
The thing is I didn't really get how Serp thought his vote was the best after progressing through the day. It was for a half decent point that was backed up with assumptions. It felt to me that he was keeping to his vote because he knew townies usually stick with their vote because they think it's the best. Admittedly, Serp dropping his vote shouldn't have warranted an immediate drop of my vote, but I felt satisfied enough to take a look at some of the people on Days So's Bandwagon.
And I haven't been ignoring Serp, but most of my case on him as it stands would sound too much like "I THINK ALICE AND JAN-SAN ARE TOWN FOR NO REASON, DIE!" So I would rather focus on people who targeted those that have actually flipped.
now, on to our regularly schedualed broadcast:
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I don't recall any case being resolved... what got resolved Zakeri? I find this statement, or at least the spirit of this statement, to be pretty bad. Bandwagons do not necessarily fail because the case died, sometimes they slow down because other cases pick up. Looks like you're trying to set him up.
Case on Alice Starts gaining more votes (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52404#msg52404)
62 - even more votes.
66 - Carthrat announces suspicion of me
70 - First Unvote of Alice
71 - Alice Posts
72 - Second unvote of Alice
78 - Carthrat says Jan-san is suspicious for the same reason as me
86 - More unvoting of Alice for not lurking anymore, which is the only point that was held against him.
Post 103 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52838#msg52838) After the only point against Alice has been defeated, and everyone that voted for Alice has unvoted, Neitz Parrots Carthrat's opinion on the Alice bandwagon.
Bonus points: 65, right before Carthrat's post, Neitz makes a post avoiding commenting on the Alice Bandwagon even though there were four votes on it.
Neitz Had and gave up the window to have his opinion on the Alice Bandwagon Matter, which reduces his valid opinion status to "Nulltell" and "Hey, Free bandwagon." Letting Neitz go for commenting on the Alice bandwagon when he did would be like claiming Affinity is obvtown because he said he was not feeling the Day one lynchwagon on day two.
Unesco (both halves) pressured me into posting while I was chatting on IRC, even though I had nothing to say, because I personally was and still am not understanding the whole coaching business, and I haven't noticed anything else worth discussing.
Bolded for Emphasis.
Is it really that hard to find something to talk about in this game? Is Scum hunting really such a complicated skill that even given a day's worth of free time you can't find the time to comment on one or two other things that are currently happening?
No, Xan, I mean it. Why is this so hard for you? I could kill you right now. May Edward Cullens (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StalkerWithACrush) find you Sexually attractive (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FateWorseThanDeath).
Both you and Neitz need to start scumhunting NOW if you think anything of self-preservation.
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Edit: Bad tag. The visible [/quote] needs to be a [/url]
Like that?
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@Zakeri:
I hope you realize this means nothing unless you said it before Days So's Flip.
This is true; it is indeed justification after the fact, but it's my reason for not finding Tenshi suspicious yesterday.
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I'm not finding Zakeri as scummy as people make him out to be, he has decent opinions, and his sudden unvote of Serp is partially justiable since he sort of dropped his vote on Alice and proceeded onto Nietz after that for alright reasons as substantial as the last (e.g Serp's parking of vote). I don't really like how he viewed Serp in the quote mentioned by Kiro, his occasionally bad logic (I don't agree with his obvtown comparison thing), and as well as his offside discussions which were mere distractions, but his actions have been better than what Nietz, Jan-san, and Xan have been producing so far.
Would like Nietz to drop a vote. As well as Xan in the near future. I would also like the latter to give opinions on everyone who isn't Tenshi and Carthrat. And obviously, there are things of issue to discuss; Mafia is not the spectator sport you are making it out to be.
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The Ninth "バカ!" Vote Count
Cirno's Perfect Maths Class (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGYVfOEC5p0&feature=related)
Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Nietz (3): Roukanken, Zakeri, Suwako Moriya
Suwako Moriya (0)
Xan (2): Affinity, Serpentarius
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (1): Kiro
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (0)
Jan-san (0)
Not Voting (4): Nietz, Xan, Alice, Jan-san
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch
Nietz is at L-3
Deadline is in 67.5 hours at 1:00 PM EST, Monday, August 10.
If you haven't posted since the start of the day, you will get officially prodded very soon.
Hey, awesome, I didn't even know what song that was but now I do. Yay lossless torrent and youtube fusion!
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Would you mind clearly defining your case on me then?
The same it was yesterday, you made a large post that was a basically arguing about the relevance of player coaching, summarizing other's posts, and then cast a vote on me what clearly looks like an afterthought.
As I mentioned, I thought there could be a connection with Carth, but that doesn't seem the case. I did notice now that you were also keeping clear of Tenshi's case even though acknowledging his scumminess and announcing you would vote him later.
There was, and I did say everything relevant I thought about. Most of my defending was actually having to repeat answers to the same repeated accusations.
Declares general suspicion of Serp and calls him on WIFOM, then proceeds to not vote. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52391#msg52391)
Serious discussion is a nulltell. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52578#msg52578)
Too serious discussion, Serp trying too hard to be Town...but Vote Tenshi because he's worse. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52838#msg52838)
Rage at Suwako for pointing out his lack of an opinion on Serp. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52873#msg52873)
ADMITS that he didn't have an opinion early on, tries to argue that there was nothing worth talking about. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52995#msg52995)
Claims that people are suggesting he make an opinion up because obviously he can't thinkfor himself. Makes a comment on Zakeri not actually producing much, but since Zak just voted him this is most likely reactionary. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53421#msg53421)
Yes, that's exactly an example of what I was saying. You just keep making post lists and repeating the same points, which are based solely on misinterpretations of what I say. I don't really know how to interpret this, as misguidance or malice. I'm leaning slightly to the former right now, mostly because this course of action is typical of Rou.
WIFOM.
It would be, if Tenshi had flipped scum. Reading what Alice said, I couldn't help feeling that he expected him not to flip scum already.
The difference is that Nietz voted for Tenshi while I didn't (at least not until the hammer). Roukanken is going after Nietz for not bringing anything new to the table about Tenshi and then voting him anyway. I didn't bring anything new to the table about Tenshi either, sure, but that was because I felt my vote was better served elsewhere at the time. Serpentarius did something similar with his vote for Jan-san.
How's keeping your vote away from the Tenshi wagon until it resolves itself and then casting a wholly unnecessary hammer a better thing?
I don't feel good about Jan for his lack of presence on Day 1 and absolute absence today. But since he does have the meta of being an absent player, I'm not inclined to voting him before he even says something.
All in all, Zakeri is the most solid suspicion I have so far.
##Vote Zakeri
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Rou: if you think Nietz was not looking for new points about Tenshi, I would say Suwako is actually a worse offender who let others dictate the discussion about Tenshi.
At least Suwako presented a case on Nietz, and gave plenty of opinions on other players. My main gripe with Nietz is that he did so little hunting and spent most of the day defending his lack of said hunting.
Really not sure where I stand in terms of Zakeri at the moment. I'll have to reread him when I find the time.
No, Xan, I mean it. Why is this so hard for you? I could kill you right now. May Edward Cullens (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StalkerWithACrush) find you Sexually attractive (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FateWorseThanDeath).
...AtE much? o_o
Nietz ninja:
You just keep making post lists and repeating the same points, which are based solely on misinterpretations of what I say.
That's a very general accusation. And I'm repeating the same points because you're doing the same things over and over again.
And still, you're missing the main point of the accusation - all you're doing is defending yourself. You are NOT being pro-town and scumhunting.
It would be, if Tenshi had flipped scum.
How does Tenshi being Town in any way immediately put you above suspicion? People still seem pretty suspicious of you, after all, so I don't understand how Alice's point assumes anything. And why Alice in particular, when other (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53498#msg53498) people (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53358#msg53358) pointed out your lack of an opinion around the same time?
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Today's been a tiring day. I'll get through Xan and Jan-san now since I promised to look at them and then review the Zakeri case when I have a little bit more energy.
Xan did little of worth yesterday, voting Carthrat for active lurking (didn't really see this) and then hopping onto Tenshi. Today's contributions have been even less. He did talk about some other things in the Cartrat vote post, but it's not enough contribution for my tastes (and I would outright disagree with his assessment that Nietz had given more substances that Carthrat at that point). Not a fan at all.
I am torn on Jan-san, however, mostly because the vote for Serpentarius doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Scum Jan. Rather than pushing a now-known human (and an easy target) to the obvious forefront, he voted for a currently-unknown who was the only mathematical chance for Tenshi to avoid a lynch. Everything else he's "done" - active lurking, the Alice jumps, even the stated reasons for the Serpentarius vote were bizarre - points to scum, but the Serpentarius vote sticking point is holding me off from labeling him scum. His next post will go a long way to determining what I think about him (and I would like it soon).
How's keeping your vote away from the Tenshi wagon until it resolves itself and then casting a wholly unnecessary hammer a better thing?
The quality difference between "Tenshi looks really bad *Tenshi vote*" and "Tenshi looks really bad but here's something I noticed about someone else as well *other person vote*" should be pretty obvious, especially when one considers the vote total differential at the time.
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That's a very general accusation. And I'm repeating the same points because you're doing the same things over and over again.
And still, you're missing the main point of the accusation - all you're doing is defending yourself. You are NOT being pro-town and scumhunting.
There you go again repeating things I have answered to. I'll patronize you, in case you are genuinely lost about it.
- Point to Serp blowing things out of porpotion. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52391#msg52391)
- Point to Serp's actions being vaguely suspicious. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52578#msg52578)
- State that Alice doesn't seem scummy, people on his wagon are worse off for that. Opinion of Serp got worse, but Tenshi tops them all. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52838#msg52838)
- Point faults in Suwako's statement. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52873#msg52873)
- Upset at Suwako saying I should make opinions up. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52995#msg52995)
- Same at Zakeri, plus unwarranted vote. Tenshi looks worse, but won't repeat Rou's points. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=53421;topic=1398.120;num_replies=172;e5d8839=27a5ac3d450376510f2a3fa825db44ad)
- Too Townie fallacy is a fallacy. Suspicions on Affinity, Jan and Zakeri, plus noticed a weird comment from Alice. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg55359#msg55359)
- Once again explain to Rou I had plenty of opinions and suspicions, having to explain what was weird in Alice's quote. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg55505#msg55505)
- See above. Plus, Zakeri was worse than I'd thought. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=post;quote=55822;topic=1398.150;num_replies=172;e5d8839=27a5ac3d450376510f2a3fa825db44ad)
There, I took the time to make a list, but can't help if you keep insisting on it.
And why Alice in particular, when other (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53498#msg53498) people (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53358#msg53358) pointed out your lack of an opinion around the same time?
The whole point was that Alice was already looking forward to me being pursued Day 2. Don't tell me you didn't notice that.
The quality difference between "Tenshi looks really bad *Tenshi vote*" and "Tenshi looks really bad but here's something I noticed about someone else as well *other person vote*" should be pretty obvious, especially when one considers the vote total differential at the time.
Well, I thought the difference was pretty obvious but you seem to claim exactly the opposite.
I don't really see how "those people look bad because of this and that, but Tenshi looks worse *Tenshi vote*", is worse than "Tenshi looks really bad but I won't take part in his wagon and I'll go over there instead *other person vote*"
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I was going to reply to the latest posts, but the silence from several people is really discouraging and I don't feel like talking it up when Alice and Jan-san haven't posted in Day 2 and Xan doesn't have a case or a vote. If they can't even make a simple notification post explaining their absence, I don't know how else to approach this because I'd rather not bank on all the Scum being lurkers; it's just not realistic.
But in general, Zakeri's replies don't really refute the basic parts about my case on him and at least Nietz is responsive. But I'm not really seeing any new material come up. I hope to be a little more enthusiastic about discussing more tomorrow.
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I am torn on Jan-san, however, mostly because the vote for Serpentarius doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Scum Jan. Rather than pushing a now-known human (and an easy target) to the obvious forefront, he voted for a currently-unknown who was the only mathematical chance for Tenshi to avoid a lynch. Everything else he's "done" - active lurking, the Alice jumps, even the stated reasons for the Serpentarius vote were bizarre - points to scum, but the Serpentarius vote sticking point is holding me off from labeling him scum. His next post will go a long way to determining what I think about him (and I would like it soon).
As I see it, trying to tip my bandwagon over the edge would've been a win-win situation for Scum Jan. Either Moonspeak gets lynched anyway and Scum Jan has distanced himself from what he knew would be a mislynch, or else I get lynched instead and then Moonspeak is a shoe-in to lynch today - and I do think that if we hadn't lynched Moonspeak yesterday, then he almost certainly would've ended up as the primary candidate today.
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- Point to Serp blowing things out of porpotion. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52391#msg52391)
- Point to Serp's actions being vaguely suspicious. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52578#msg52578)
So from 'You're being way too serious about this' to 'it's sort of scummy'. Is that really such a big difference?
- State that Alice doesn't seem scummy, people on his wagon are worse off for that. Opinion of Serp got worse, but Tenshi tops them all. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52838#msg52838)
It isn't hunting to say 'I think this person is Town, I don't like people who attack him'. And do you present anything NEW about Tenshi? No.
- Point faults in Suwako's statement. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52873#msg52873)
No new hunting.
- Upset at Suwako saying I should make opinions up. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52995#msg52995)
1. Everyone else had been able to discuss things at that time, so the 'there's nothing concrete' point makes no sense.
2. How do you expect do get out of RVS if you don't comment? Pointing out that Serp was acting OTT leads to discussion, which leads to information. That's a GOOD thing.
No new hunting.
Same at Zakeri, plus unwarranted vote. Tenshi looks worse, but won't repeat Rou's points.
I assume you wanted to quote this (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53421#msg53421) post here.
Anyway, you're misinterpreting what everyone is saying. You undoubtedly HAD an opinion when you said 'Serp is acting OTT', but in later posts you rolled back with nulltells. Why so nervous about making suggestions?
- Too Townie fallacy is a fallacy. Suspicions on Affinity, Jan and Zakeri, plus noticed a weird comment from Alice. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg55359#msg55359)
Okay, I'll make a mental note to lynch Serp every time he looks like a Townie as well as every time he looks like scum. Hell, let's make him the official day 1 policy lynch!
Too Townie is NOT a reason to vote someone on its own. The concept of Too Townie leads to other tells which themselves suggest scuminess, but unless those tells can be broken down and analysed there's no such thing as Too Townie.
It's only HERE you start producing something resembling hunting. Of course, here we start with the 'Alice is watching me in my sleep' business.
- Once again explain to Rou I had plenty of opinions and suspicions, having to explain what was weird in Alice's quote. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg55505#msg55505)
If you had opinions, why did you keep them to yourself? Arguing 'they were weak' when we're talking DAY 1 makes no sense at all.
- See above. Plus, Zakeri was worse than I'd thought. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg55822#msg55822)
Except this is just you saying 'no you're wrong' without explaining why. And obviously, now that you have, I only felt complied to explain why your defense doesn't hold.
The whole point was that Alice was already looking forward to me being pursued Day 2. Don't tell me you didn't notice that.
And my whole point is that I was looking forward to pursuing you Day 2 whatever Tenshi's flip. Why are you so convinced that Tenshi flipping Town gives you any sort of clear?
Now that I've responded, I'll go do a Zak reread.
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Zak Day 1:
"Alice is scummy because he's lurking. I don't like how Serp voted him despite not knowing he was lurking because he could have been inactive. Oh and Tenshi is an idiot." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52404#msg52404)
"Serp is blowing the Tenshi vote out of proportion. Repetition of what I just said." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52559#msg52559)
"Repeating my points on Serp AGAIN. Voting Serp because he's given no good reason for his vote and Alice has shown up.
Also suspicious of Nietz for not having opinions." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52635#msg52635)
"Why is talking to Serp a bad thing?" (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52680#msg52680)
"Tenshi is an idiot. I'm watching his wagon." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52813#msg52813)
"This is why we should let Tenshi be an idiot." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52843#msg52843)
"I DON'T KNOW WHAT SARCASM IS
Serp is bad because he's making a vote he KNOWS is bad" (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg52894#msg52894)
...Uh...what?
"Unvote Serp because he isn't attacking Alice anymore.
I DON'T LIKE VOTING SCUMMY PLAYERS IF I HAVE MY OWN SUSPECT.
More defense of Tenshi the idiot.
Nietz, opinions plz.
Carth had a weird change of heart after Tenshi's WoT where he suddenly screamed OMGWTF OBVSCUM. Most of the points I'm putting up here are IIoA, by the way.
Vote Nietz because most of the points I made here against Carth aren't actually all that bad." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53113#msg53113)
"Okay I give up, lynch Tenshi. BUT I'M STILL GOING TO DEFEND HIM JUST IN CASE." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53523#msg53523)
Day 2:
"Vote Nietz again. Yes, I admit that most of my points against Carth Day 1 were sort of pointless." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg55587#msg55587)
"I thought Serp was bad for making a REALLY bad move rather than a slightly bad move.
TENSHI RAGE
I don't understand Serp's thought patterns, so he must be lying.
Nietz jumped on the Alice wagon after it was dead.
XAN RAAAAAAAGE" (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg55742#msg55742)
Of all of these, there are a few points that stand out to me. Firstly the 'Should I let scummy wagons go through' point. It's, in short, a terrible point, because he's basically saying that his opinion is more important than anyone else's even in the face of evidence. He admits that he found Sodium scummy in Umineko, but he is asking if lynching him based on that is okay. Well, we're out to lynch SCUM, so...
Secondly, the WoT where he votes Nietz on D1, with mostly reporting and little actual analysis. In short, what was the point? Saying 'I understood Carthrat's thought process until here where he suddenly jumped on Tenshi' would have been much easier for everyone.
Still, maybe I'm being gullible but the first point in particular makes me uncertain that Zak is our man. It really sounds like he's trying to do some genuine thinking but he's just going at it the wrong way. The Tenshi lynch really seemed to genuinely annoy him, too, so I'm not really sure about lynching him based on this alone.
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And that was a V/LA that I should have noted. Sorry about that >_> Reading now.
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Xan and Jan-san are being replaced. Kerigis and Sodium kindly PM me for confirmation and role details.
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Oh hai.
Confirmed, will make post later.
You replace Xan. Just letting everyone else know
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So I see Xan here has left me in a bit of a pickle. Nothing I'm not used to of course.
I don't really have much to say or add, at least until Jan-san's replacement shows up. There's a huge number of lurkers, or/and people who just joined bandwagons. Nietz has already been covered extensively, and Jan-san is getting replaced(without the replacement being here yet). Alice still hasn't posted an actual post on Day 2 yet(one with content). On a seperate note, Zakeri has been covered well by Kiro.
I do note that Affinity had his vote on Suwako most of the Day, until he dropped it "for now", implying he'll be back. He has said nothing more on Suwako since then, including not commenting at all about Suwako's answer to his question. lolwut?
Not voting yet.
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Not voting yet.
So you've pointed out that several cases have been covered. Do any of those cases look good to you? The only stance I'm getting from your post is a vague finger of suspicion for Affinity.
Alright, we need an extension to examine these replacements.
##Vote Extension
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Obligatory FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF at double replacement.
Would like to see the newcomers comment on the previous cases; until then, ##Extension.
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##Extension
In any case, EX Na2O2, could you point out which question of Suwako's that I didn't answer? And 'for now' doesn't really imply later; I was satisfied with his case on Nietz and since he's still carrying out the questioning into day two, I don't find him worthy of much concern at the moment. In general even, anything is 'for now' since they could produce scummy material later.
And obviously, Jan-san should never be allowed to join a mafia game ever again.
##Unvote to see what people have to say.
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One rousing day of SotN and watching the Dear
Zakeri Zachary documentary on MSNBC, I'm ready to get back into this.
##Vote: Extension because two replacements + where did Alice go = yeah.
Time to read the Zachary Zakeri case in-depth, though an initial lookover has me disagreeing with a few of the ideas Kiro brought forth.
Cut by Affinity who mentions the Jan-san sentiment I forgot to add to this post.
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I agree with them, mostly. There are minor things I disagree, but the end result is essentially the same, so I don't think I need I really need to bring them up, and they're minor anyways. The problem is that they're too many good cases/people acting scummy/NOT TALKING.
Well, there is one thing I feel like bringing up. What's with all the "he wasn't behind the Tenshi wagon, so I don't think he's scum" stuff? It isn't a bad thing that they weren't behind the Tenshi lynch, but to say that they feel town just because of that seems to be going too far, especially when they have a large amount of bad actions. Kiro said this on Jan-san, and Roukan on Zakeri.
Also, I agree with Kiro that's it's discouraging to post when there are a large number of players simply not posting.
I'm waiting for Jan-san's replacement, and an Alice post before I vote. I don't think I need to vote Alice to prod him right now, just in case you're wondering. At least, not yet. =V
Eh, seeing as everyone including me wants an extension:
##Extension
Side Note:
Double replacement is indeed FFFFFFFFFF. Mafia on MoTK really needs to cut down on people dropping out. =V
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Obligatory facepalm at two substitutions.
As much as feel like RAGE'ing at Jan as a player, for obvious reasons, the fact that he was actually lazy/uncaring instead of actively lurking kinda weakens my point on him. Even so, I'm still very interested in what Kerigis has to say.
##Vote Extension
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In regards to the Zakeri case:
- I disagree with Kiro's point regarding Zakeri #72. My interpretation of Zakeri's post in question is that he went after Serpentarius for voting Alice for lurking and later saying lurking wasn't a scumtell while maintaining the Alice vote. Zakeri himself never claimed he felt lurking wasn't a scumtell, so his pursuit of Alice for lurking is still valid. He wasn't attacking Serpentarius for voting Alice for lurking, he was attacking Serpentarius for being inconsistent. (To address #124 at the time time, I would guess Zakeri unvoted Serpentarius exactly because Serpentarius unvoted Alice and thus stopped being inconsistent.)
- I get where the accusation of reporting in #99, #104 and #114 are coming from, but I do get an air of "don't lynch Tenshi just because he was being stupid" from the latter two (for whatever that's worth), and he confirms this sentiment in #124.
- One point of Nietz's against Zakeri in particular stands out to me:
I did notice now that you were also keeping clear of Tenshi's case even though acknowledging his scumminess and announcing you would vote him later.
This is pretty blatant misrepresentation, since Zakeri only did those things way down the line after Tenshi clearly demonstrated he had no idea how to handle himself. I would disagree with the idea that he was "keeping clear" of the case when he strongly implied, if not outright stated, that he thought the bandwagon was scummy (at the top of 124).
I can't honestly find Zakeri to be worth a vote. The 99-114 string is irritating as commentary and a distraction, but there's enough wrong with what else has been presented against him for me to think this is a worthy case to pursue. This is not to say that I'm 100% sure he's town, but I believe it's more likely he's town than scum just based on what I've read and what's been presented against him.
The one thing that confuses me about all this is why Zakeri never explained the Serpentarius/Alice thing himself, since multiple other people held the same view as Kiro (Nietz, Carthrat, maybe one or two others I already don't remember).
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Other stuffs:
As I see it, trying to tip my bandwagon over the edge would've been a win-win situation for Scum Jan. Either Moonspeak gets lynched anyway and Scum Jan has distanced himself from what he knew would be a mislynch, or else I get lynched instead and then Moonspeak is a shoe-in to lynch today - and I do think that if we hadn't lynched Moonspeak yesterday, then he almost certainly would've ended up as the primary candidate today.
Obviously that's how you see it, since you know your alignment and would say that either way. The rest of us, however, have seen Tenshi flip town and don't know what you are.
Your flip (should it come while Kerigis is still alive) would clearly do a lot to determine how worthy the cushion I gave Jan-san is, but for now I think the uncertainty is enough to place Kerigis slightly below Sodium Peroxide on the scummy list.
Well, I thought the difference was pretty obvious but you seem to claim exactly the opposite.
I don't really see how "those people look bad because of this and that, but Tenshi looks worse *Tenshi vote*", is worse than "Tenshi looks really bad but I won't take part in his wagon and I'll go over there instead *other person vote*"
Mmm. I see where you're coming from with this, so I guess the only thing to do is swing it back to Roukanken, who initially brought up the idea that what you did was bad while not mentioning me. He put forth his reasoning here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg55838#msg55838), which you skipped over for whatever reason (because it was a response to Kiro I guess? That didn't stop me but hey whatever).
You also apparently skipped over Kiro's interest in an explanation from you regarding what was discussed here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg55684#msg55684).
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This is pretty blatant misrepresentation, since Zakeri only did those things way down the line after Tenshi clearly demonstrated he had no idea how to handle himself. I would disagree with the idea that he was "keeping clear" of the case when he strongly implied, if not outright stated, that he thought the bandwagon was scummy (at the top of 124).
And yet he said, in that same post, that Tenshi was "worthy of the day's lynch". What he pretty much outright stated is that he wouldn't take part in Tenshi's wagon until it was resolved, but we should go ahead with it anyway.
My main theory for looking at Day 1 is: If there's one thing scum must've felt differently when facing Tenshi, is that unlike Town, who was pretty much caught by surprise and outraged at how scummy - and how dumb scummy - his actions looked, scum would know all the way that he was simply being dumb, any outrage at his blatant scumminess would have to be faked, and it soon should have been clear that town would end up lynching him without much "help" being needed that way.
You also apparently skipped over Kiro's interest in an explanation from you regarding what was discussed here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg55684#msg55684).
Hum, I thought I had addressed that in an asnwer to Rou. But the point is that if Alice was scum, he would only be working with the future outcome of Tenshi flipping Town. And since Rou and Suwako were already saying that my reason for joining the case on him was weak, he could as well start setting up my mislynch for today.
This remark kind of got blown out of proportion, I'm not assuming that Alice is scum just because of it, but I certainly did want to hear what he would have to say about it. The fact that he only showed up for #178 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg56326#msg56326) and vanished without actually saying anything is disappointing to say the least.
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He said Tenshi was worthy of the day's lynch if Tenshi didn't get better.
I will concede that if Days So doesn't start shaping up before the end of day 1, he's worthy of the day's lynch and will vote/hammer accordingly
Simple if-then statement.
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Obviously that's how you see it, since you know your alignment and would say that either way. The rest of us, however, have seen Tenshi flip town and don't know what you are.
Your flip (should it come while Kerigis is still alive) would clearly do a lot to determine how worthy the cushion I gave Jan-san is, but for now I think the uncertainty is enough to place Kerigis slightly below Sodium Peroxide on the scummy list.
That's all true, but it wasn't your original point. Your exact words were "the vote for Serpentarius doesn't make sense for Scum Jan." That would only be true if I were scum as well. Scum Jan would've had no reason not to vote for Town Serp, and Town Jan would've had no particular reason not to vote for me either way. But his vote's objectively horrible reasoning makes it look more like a scummy strategic vote than a legitimate decision based on a townie train of thought. I don't see how his vote against me could actually lessen the suspicion on him.
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Oh, I suppose that's true.
Stick Kerigis and Sodium Peroxide at the same level, then.
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He said Tenshi was worthy of the day's lynch if Tenshi didn't get better.
Simple if-then statement.
As in "If he doesn't start being smart, then I'll join this scummy bandwagon of yours."?
As I said, scum didn't have to lose any ATP trying to figure out if Tenshi was scum or not, they already knew he was acting like that out of sheer noobness, and therefore would hardly shape up all of a sudden.
But now that you pointed it out, this kind of statement is a great safety net to pre-justify any attitude he would take towards the case.
Also, by my count that's 6 votes for Extension already, can the UNESCO confirm that it was granted?
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And where does that interpretation suggest that Zakeri said the bandwagon should proceed anyway? Seeing it as such would require presupposing Zakeri was scum, and I don't think there's enough evidence to do such a thing.
I also think it's a bit of a gamble because there did exist the chance that Tenshi would smarten up, requiring Zakeri to follow up on his word and keep opposing the bandwagon. Ultimately that didn't happen, but it would have been very hard to go back on his word if it did. Why bother taking a chance on anything on Day 1?
As best, for a case against Zakeri, it's a null tell, because it's a completely legitimate thing for Town Zakeri to say as well given what he had said up to that point.
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Affinity: Wait, what? I said you asked Suwako a question, but when he answered, you really didn't reply to said answer. I was expecting an "alright" or something seeing as you asked that question after you unvoted Suwako. I would think that a reply to a question asked to someone you just unvoted would be worth noting.
But anyways, I guess I misinterpreted your words. Fair enough.
So, Suwako, what's with the Zakeri defending games? And what level would that be, regarding me and Kerigis/Jan-san's replacement?
Nietz: So you're saying that Zakeri was keeping his options open when he said that? I can see how that would work, but... Suwa-er, Kanako dam Suwako ninja. Uh, yeah. TownZak could've said that as much as ScumZak.
Serp: Anything else?
Hm, where's Jan-san's replacement? =V
Hm, where's Alice? Seriously. =V
Why do I always end up 1 name short when I try remembering everyone who's playing? =V
Unrelated Side Note Question: Suwako, assuming you're not Kilga, are you Edible?
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The Zakeri case was the one major thing I hadn't commented on yet, so I did. Nietz responded to my post, I responded to his response, etc. I guess talking about a case on someone you don't think is scum qualifies as defending now apparently? Whatever. I'm interested in the discussion hashing out the details of the case so a proper conclusion can be agreed upon.
The level thing concerns this, which can be found on this very page:
Your flip (should it come while Kerigis is still alive) would clearly do a lot to determine how worthy the cushion I gave Jan-san is, but for now I think the uncertainty is enough to place Kerigis slightly below Sodium Peroxide on the scummy list.
I am not Edible.
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##Extention would be nice, since no one was speaking at all last night before I went to sleep and then had my internet cut for a while :V
@Kiro: What exactly about my reply left you wanting more. It does me no good to just say "Well, Zak hasn't really cleared anything up." And then just having look through your post trying to figure out what you're pressing that I haven't tried to explain.
...AtE much? o_o
I feel it's justified. Speaking of which, Hi Sodium.
Firstly the 'Should I let scummy wagons go through' point. It's, in short, a terrible point, because he's basically saying that his opinion is more important than anyone else's even in the face of evidence.
Oh, someone answered my question. "Yes, you should let wagons you think are bad go through because you're always wrong unless the Mod Says so." Okay then.
I'm not trying to be vicious about this point, I'm just still bitter over how we lost the last game.
Alice must be hardcore to have been reading the topic for sixteen hours.
I don't really have much to say or add, at least until Jan-san's replacement shows up.
Why don't you have anything to add until Jan-san shows up? also, You never really stated your stance on anyone.
I do note that Affinity had his vote on Suwako most of the Day, until he dropped it "for now", implying he'll be back. He has said nothing more on Suwako since then, including not commenting at all about Suwako's answer to his question. lolwut?
I don't like it when people hold this point up against others. It implies people should be ignoring what's happened around them and just tunnel on the first person they FoS.
And obviously, Jan-san should never be allowed to join a mafia game ever again.
I'm personally refusing them (Jan-san and Xan) if they in my next game. I'm serious.
I see that main point Neitz is arguing, but it feels like he's trying to spin something that would be natural for me to assume into something that only scum would assume. The stance I held on Tenshi is the result of me trying to understand the reason we lost last game based on my actions last game. Last game, the person I wound up defending (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=893) I successfully saved from being lynched. That person got replaced (headache indusing) and surviving until Lylo to be lynched. If I had let him be lynched Day one, not only could I have made the counter attack on the scum that voted him much sooner, but it would have been contemplated instead of ignored as WiFoM.
So then what exactly am I suppose to do when I find myself in what amounts to the exact same situation? Yes, I wanted to shout and yell at you all for bandwagoning on evidence that indicates that he is either Idiot town or Idiot Scum, but in the end, there was no indication that Tenshi was either Scum or Town, just that he was an idiot. I still disagree with it in heart, but there were three reasons it was a good enough lynch for day one:
1. It helps remove anti-town elements, such as people who don't know how to play the game, from making it to lylo
2. Scummy bandwagons, according to others, is only scummy if the target flips town, therefore you can't make cases based on bandwagons that don't go through to lynch
3. There was still a Decent chance Tenshi was scum.
I said before that one of the morals of last game was not take stupid things people do and calling it Malicious intent, which is exactly what was happening to Tenshi and a point I was taking to heart.
What you're trying to spin it as is ScumMe trying to semi-clear myself by staying off the bandwagon while enjoying a mislynch in the process. The problem with this line of thought however is that I'm not asking people to clear me because I wasn't targeting Tenshi. Just the opposite, I feel it's suspicious to try and go about it like that, which is why I gave Affinity some hardship for explaining why he wasn't on the bandwagon.
---
Let's see ... Nothing new on Neitz's case, The other big case right now is me, and I don't really see anything forming on Jan-san's case until Kerigis shows up.
I guess talking about a case on someone you don't think is scum qualifies as defending now apparently?
It's been that way since I first attacked Serp last game.
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##Extension just to make sure it gets through.
Ok, I'm a lazy asshole and don't want to think about Mafia tonight (got addicted to Tenhou on a Sunday). I feel like I should give the replacements and Alice time to pipe in first, but I'll have my customary daily post in by Monday noon time.
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##Extension just in case.
Typing up a response, but it might not be up until a couple hours later because I'm basically exhausted right now.
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I don't really see how "those people look bad because of this and that, but Tenshi looks worse *Tenshi vote*", is worse than "Tenshi looks really bad but I won't take part in his wagon and I'll go over there instead *other person vote*"
Tenshi was a blatant bandwagon, plain and simple. It irritates me when people give legitimate points against other players and then finish by saying 'but as everyone else has already explained X is really scummy so Vote X'.
And if you're using the latter as a point against Suwako, it really doesn't make much sense since he'd been voting you on a solid point for most of Day 1. He only really decided to move on Tenshi after his last Wall of Terrible here. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg53587#msg53587)
Scum Jan would've had no reason not to vote for Town Serp, and Town Jan would've had no particular reason not to vote for me either way.
So because he voted for you he must therefore be scum? And 'Town Jan has no reason to vote for me' is a pretty big assumption.
Oh, someone answered my question. "Yes, you should let wagons you think are bad go through because you're always wrong unless the Mod Says so." Okay then.
That's not the point I'm making here. What I'm saying is that in Umineko you obviously weren't convinced by Sodium's defense, and thus you weren't totally opposed to him being lynched. What you're suggesting is 'SCREW YOUR SUSPECT, GUYS. I AGREE THAT HE'S SCUMMY BUT LOOK AT MY CASE.'
Still no sign of Kerigis. :|
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I didn't doubt that Sodium would flip town. What I doubted was that town even had a fraction of a chance at turning the game around. I voted to end the game and my headache, since the only other vote needed on him would have been coming from scum if not me.
'SCREW YOUR SUSPECT, GUYS. I AGREE THAT HE'S SCUMMY BUT LOOK AT MY CASE.'
So in other words, Town shouldn't be open minded. I somehow doubt that.
The message I'm getting here is that once more than two people agree that someone is acting sort of scummy, the town should then decide that no one besides that person is scum, and that we should just conclude that that person is the day's lynch. I understand that not knowing Sodium's flip is what made my case so bad last game, but it's getting harder to not feel jaded when the message behind why my play was so bad appears to be because Tunnling on a single person is pro-town if more than one person does it.
On a Side Note, Kiro, Alice, just because Xan and Jan-san got replaced DOES NOT MEAN you two get to take their places in activity levels.
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I don't see any confirmation for replacing from Kerigis. This slot is now open to anyone that would like to replace in.
Extension has been granted. I'll sort out the time and do a vote count once I get home.
I'll do this. I owe you all a VC. Let me find a suitable song
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The Tenth "Acoustic?" Vote Count
幽雅に咲かせ 墨染の桜 ～ Border of Life (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpmrLFXQz_s&feature=PlayList&p=A524F48C6AAD7BD9&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=17)
Mod Note: umu...I think I'll give you something more like a 34 hour extension to be honest...
Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Nietz (3): Roukanken, Zakeri, Suwako Moriya
Suwako Moriya (0)
EX Na2O2 (1): Serpentarius
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (2): Kiro, Nietz
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (0)
Jan-san (0)
Not Voting (4): Xan, Alice, Jan-san, Affinity
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch
Nietz is at L-3
Deadline is in 36.5 hours at 10:00 PM EST, Tuesday, August 11.
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Zakeri: I was going to say some stuff about Jan, but I decided to wait for his replacement. Also, it was more of me waiting for any lurker to post.
The Affinity thing was somewhat of a wording issue, and the fact he asked a question, got an answer, but didn't say anything about the answer.
As for stances, aside from my RAGE at lurkers, I think that of the two major cases right now, the one on Nietz is better because I find that you're doing more hunting then he is, and while I don't think that this is as big as Roukan finds it, you actually seemed to dislike the Tenshi lynch.
Kiro: Oh, come on. -_-
So I look in the topic expecting to see new posts from people who haven't been posting. There was almost none of that. The hell?
##Vote Alice
Please say something. =V
@Mod(s):Wrathie signed up as a replacement in the sign-up topic...
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1. It helps remove anti-town elements, such as people who don't know how to play the game, from making it to lylo
2. Scummy bandwagons, according to others, is only scummy if the target flips town, therefore you can't make cases based on bandwagons that don't go through to lynch
3. There was still a Decent chance Tenshi was scum.
Yes, those are plausible. The problem I have is that they only come in hindsight. At that point that stance is basically of agreeing that Tenshi looks bad, but letting town decide if it's okay to lynch him or not. I still maintain that that attitude makes more sense from the point of view of scum.
Seriously, how long can Alice put off actually posting by saying he's reading and then vanishing?
Waiting for Alice and eigen-Jan to post before I have more to say.
@Mod(s):Wrathie signed up as a replacement in the sign-up topic...
Yeah, wrathie coming in now will help a lot... :V
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Kiro: Oh, come on. -_-
Hey now, part of this is because we need all the people who haven't put forward anything in Day 2 to do so and I prefer more raw opinions. If we provide all the talking points for them, they're more likely to go along with what's best from their viewpoint and I find that suspicious. That's also why I got a funny feeling about Suwako in regards to the Tenshi train on Day 1.
I already put forward my cases, and I'll re-evaluate everything now and have a better post up within 3 hours. The likelihood that despite my waiting around for the last 2 days, that I'll have something else up before Alice whom was my second choice in my last wall is very disappointing.
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So because he voted for you he must therefore be scum? And 'Town Jan has no reason to vote for me' is a pretty big assumption.
No, you misread me. My words were "Town Jan has no reason not to vote for me." In that post, since Suwako had claimed that Jan going after me would only look bad after my flip, I was going over the four possible scum/town alignment combinations for myself and Jan from an outside perspective. I agreed that the vote would not make sense if both of us were scum, but if Jan's scum and I'm not, then it would make perfect sense. And if Jan was Town, then I suppose he could've believed the case on me was legit regardless of my alignment, but since his reasoning in that post was so bad, it doesn't look like he had actually gone through any logical train of thought to determine that I looked scummy - and that means that the vote was more likely to be a scummy strategic move than an honest conclusion.
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To review: Zakeri's vote on Alice in #55 still looks like a convenient placeholder vote to me as he wasn't sure "where to take my vote to lynch now." I'm not saying that he wants to vote Alice to lynch, but rather, he's not ready to commit to anything early on which is pretty much just like Nietz at the time. Just a basic comparison. The distraction about coaching was not needed, simple as that. To point out Zakeri's #156 in Day 2 again,
Does this mean you think Alice is scummy solely because he said you were scummy after the day one Lynch was decided? This point seems out of place to me, because I could only see it this way if I already thought Alice was Scum.
Alice made an accusation of Nietz based on his supposed Scum meta and before Tenshi flipped. Nietz regardless of his alignment, has every right to be suspicious of a comment like that. I think that was a fair point for Nietz to make.
For your #166
And I haven't been ignoring Serp, but most of my case on him as it stands would sound too much like "I THINK ALICE AND JAN-SAN ARE TOWN FOR NO REASON, DIE!" So I would rather focus on people who targeted those that have actually flipped.
Should note that Serp did vote Tenshi in the end. So in that sense, you are ignoring him because his vote did help to secure the lynch. Why do the scum have to be amongst Nietz and the people before him? Also, Nietz "giving up the window to have his opinion on the Alice bandwagon" is huh? There wasn't enough information at the time so I don't see how that point should go against him because almost nobody really had an opinion on Alice before he posted and then was largely ignored.
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Actually, I suddenly realized that Roukan was in part responsible for the back and forth between Zakeri because he kept questioning each of Zakeri's individual points and while critical of Tenshi and speculated on the Tenshi/Serp pair, actually voted Serp first before voting Tenshi near the end of the Day. Suddenly warrants interest to me. I'm not explicitly saying they're a scumpair, but it should be mentioned that Roukan also spent more time on this issue than was necessary. Rou is also slightly apologetic of unvoting Serp in #132 which he didn't have to be. He then still goes into more back and forth with Zakeri before voting Tenshi.
The case on Alice is still the same just because there hasn't been anything else he's said in Day 2. As I stated a few hours ago, I was hoping Alice would bring his Day 2 opinions forward, but he hasn't.
Still see Jan-san the same way. Xan was lazy, Sodium is also not putting too much forward yet, but I assume he's also waiting for Kerigis and Alice. Sodium: my feeling on Jan-san is gut. The point at the end of each day is to get it right and all Townies take that risk when they make a vote. Sometimes, there's just no empirical evidence to support it.
I'm running out of time and the Nietz and Rou interaction is really confusing with all those links. Even I don't do a point by point summary of stuff before. It deserves more attention, but I gotta leave now. I've stopped at #188, but I gave some more points about the Zakeri case. Maybe I'll get another post in 5 hours.
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Kerigis replaces Jan-san. Effective immediately. Jam on!
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I didn't doubt that Sodium would flip town. What I doubted was that town even had a fraction of a chance at turning the game around. I voted to end the game and my headache, since the only other vote needed on him would have been coming from scum if not me.
So in other words, you voted Sodium solely because you wanted the game to end and deliberately acted against the goals of your faction. Nice job.
The message I'm getting here is that once more than two people agree that someone is acting sort of scummy, the town should then decide that no one besides that person is scum, and that we should just conclude that that person is the day's lynch. I understand that not knowing Sodium's flip is what made my case so bad last game, but it's getting harder to not feel jaded when the message behind why my play was so bad appears to be because Tunnling on a single person is pro-town if more than one person does it.
If several people are able to develop a decent enough case on one player, of course it's likely that the Town will start moving in on them. After all, if said person is unable to defend themselves properly, and the case makes sense to the rest of the Town, then what reason is there to not believe they're scum?
Umineko was a case where Sodium (in short) messed up by acting incredibly scummy. The cases against him were relatively solid, and ignoring a relatively solid case is in itself scummy. People considered the Serp lynch, but felt the case against Sodium was stronger. If you honestly felt that Sodium wasn't the right person to die then you should have held to your beliefs rather than conform.
No, you misread me. My words were "Town Jan has no reason not to vote for me." In that post, since Suwako had claimed that Jan going after me would only look bad after my flip, I was going over the four possible scum/town alignment combinations for myself and Jan from an outside perspective. I agreed that the vote would not make sense if both of us were scum, but if Jan's scum and I'm not, then it would make perfect sense. And if Jan was Town, then I suppose he could've believed the case on me was legit regardless of my alignment, but since his reasoning in that post was so bad, it doesn't look like he had actually gone through any logical train of thought to determine that I looked scummy - and that means that the vote was more likely to be a scummy strategic move than an honest conclusion.
So in truth this boils down to something as simple as 'Jan made a poorly-explained vote on me, therefore I suspect him'? Trying to connect flips together based on one vote is dangerous and is begging for potential WIFOM.
And a point I missed earlier:
Well, there is one thing I feel like bringing up. What's with all the "he wasn't behind the Tenshi wagon, so I don't think he's scum" stuff? It isn't a bad thing that they weren't behind the Tenshi lynch, but to say that they feel town just because of that seems to be going too far, especially when they have a large amount of bad actions. Kiro said this on Jan-san, and Roukan on Zakeri.
I don't remember saying that it was staying off the Tenshi lynch that made me uncertain of Zak being scum. What my point was is that the lynch seemed to produce genuine irritation from him. It's AtE, true, but I don't remember Scum!Zak being this...emotional.
(And yes, I did just use meta despite apparently being anti-mindhax. Sue me.)
Stiiiiiiiiiiill waiting on Kerigis...T_T
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So in truth this boils down to something as simple as 'Jan made a poorly-explained vote on me, therefore I suspect him'? Trying to connect flips together based on one vote is dangerous and is begging for potential WIFOM.
The reason I made that point in the first place was Suwako's claim that voting against me wouldn't have made any sense for Scum Jan, and I was just refuting that.
Also note that I don't agree that connecting flips with votes is begging for WIFOM. Words are cheap. Votes decide who dies. Some votes are more important than others. Throwaway votes and votes that just cement an already-decided bandwagon are pretty close to useless, yes, but bandwagon swingers (or attempts thereof) are some of the strongest evidence there is. It's when you say that such a vote is a nulltell because it could be bussing that you're invoking WIFOM.
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Suwako: To review Zakeri's #124:
I wish he'd comment on more cases than just mine and Moonspeak's
Now that you've backed off your point, You'll get your wish.
##Unvote: Serpentarius
I really don't understand this unvote at all. Zakeri is going to fulfill Serp's wish and comment on other cases and THAT gets him to unvote Serp? Zakeri can still comment on others and still decide Serp is still his vote for the rest of the Day. Why is Zakeri preemptively placating Serp by unvoting him first and then going down and eventually voting Nietz? Zakeri "usually" types as he reads so he had all the intention of unvoting Serp when he started the post.
An unvote of Serp should only come because of something Serp did and the main things was him unvoting Alice, vote Tenshi, then unvote Tenshi, and vote Jan-san (I missed that in my earlier wall). How did that satisfy Zakeri or make Serp more consistent in Zakeri's eyes? It's weirder than I first thought and it's actually muddling my read of Zakeri as a result. And to get to the point, I don't know how scummy this is without a relevant flip of Serp, Alice or Jan-san, but it's really weird and needs clarification.
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Zakeri's #197 doesn't change anything for me. He's basing it on our last game so it's just a history lesson and his philosophy from a Town perspective. That DOES NOT MEAN he's actually Town this game as he does not bring up any specific examples of anything he did that demonstrates he's doing the same thing this game. He was already focusing on the future regarding the coaching business. I brought up some more points on you though so please address those.
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As for Nietz, I'm now a little torn that he voted Zakeri, but doesn't spend much time expanding that case and a little more on defending himself. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense and I would have liked to see more details about his suspicions on Zakeri, Alice, and whomever else. Like I said, I hope I don't provide all the talking points and Nietz should understand that making statements based on assumptions that the person is Scum is not quite scumhunting.
And I'm going to cut to the chase, but we need some time to digest your answer to the following question. Nietz, do you have a restriction of any kind? There's no way you're dumb enough to do some of the things you've done. Saying yes would explain a few things, but it does not clear you. I'd rather not wait for a last minute roleclaim from you, seeing as how this is the Day's lynch appears to be shaping at the moment.
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Sodium: Tell us why you're voting Alice over Kerigis/Jan-san for the sake of having it down in writing.
And Serpentarius' assumption about Jan-san voting him is noted. But is that really the crux of your case on Jan-san? Town Jan-san "can" vote you if that's how he really felt, simple as that. I feel this is the second time you might be interpreting things differently than what most people think and I'm finding it difficult to determine how independently scummy that is without Alice's or Jan-san's flip.
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EBWOP: Bleh, rereading my post, I think I misunderstood the very first paragraph about Serp's unvote. As a result, the only parts that should remain are:
"Zakeri can still comment on others and still decide Serp is still his vote for the rest of the Day."
"Zakeri "usually" types as he reads so he had all the intention of unvoting Serp when he started the post."
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And Serpentarius' assumption about Jan-san voting him is noted. But is that really the crux of your case on Jan-san? Town Jan-san "can" vote you if that's how he really felt, simple as that.
Yes, yes, I'm well aware of that. This is why I said "Town Jan has no reason not to vote for me." If he's Town, then his vote on me was presumably because he felt that I was more likely to be scum than Moonspeak. That's a possibility, yes. But considering the lack of any good reasoning behind that vote, it doesn't look like he really thought that I was a better case than Moonspeak.
And as for whether it's the crux of my case, the scummy factor is the bad reasoning behind the vote. The only reason that I'm pointing out how the vote would fit into Scum Jan's agenda is that Suwako originally claimed that it wouldn't make any sense for Scum Jan to vote against me. The vote itself isn't the scummy factor, but it's certainly not a towntell.
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Sodium: Tell us why you're voting Alice over Kerigis/Jan-san for the sake of having it down in writing.
1.At the time of my vote, the replacement had apparently fallen through(later proven false), so there wasn't any point of voting Kerigis, was there?
2.At this point, I don't want to just randomly move my vote thats a prod to prod another person, and they both need prodding. Also, I'm assuming that Kerigis needs to read the whole game, while Alice only needs to catch up on considerably less.
Roukan:I have once again misunderstood something. I need to lrn2read. =V
META! At least it's not a clear, but more of a "Let's wait and see". I don't really like it, but I'll put it aside.
Suwako: Your post came off to me as "Zakeri isn't as bad as you guys say, Take it easy!". Also,
He wasn't attacking Serpentarius for voting Alice for lurking, he was attacking Serpentarius for being inconsistent. (To address #124 at the time time, I would guess Zakeri unvoted Serpentarius exactly because Serpentarius unvoted Alice and thus stopped being inconsistent.)
Why does Serp unvoting Alice make the inconsistency go away? Serp had still been "inconsistent" before he unvoted, so he had been inconsistent for a period of time.
Well, this day is moving at a snails pace. Doesn't help that there was a double replacement and how 2 people haven't spoken AT ALL yet, and how those two result in less posting from everyone in general. On that note, Affinity and Suwako are missing as well.
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As for Nietz, I'm now a little torn that he voted Zakeri, but doesn't spend much time expanding that case and a little more on defending himself. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense and I would have liked to see more details about his suspicions on Zakeri, Alice, and whomever else. Like I said, I hope I don't provide all the talking points and Nietz should understand that making statements based on assumptions that the person is Scum is not quite scumhunting.
And I'm going to cut to the chase, but we need some time to digest your answer to the following question. Nietz, do you have a restriction of any kind? There's no way you're dumb enough to do some of the things you've done. Saying yes would explain a few things, but it does not clear you. I'd rather not wait for a last minute roleclaim from you, seeing as how this is the Day's lynch appears to be shaping at the moment.
To be frank, I'm quite uninspired for this game. Of the active players, the only case I have some relative confidence is Zakeri, and I've presented my points through the game already: placeholder vote on Alice, behavior towards the Tenshi case and what I felt was an unsatisfying justification for it. Rather than making these points assuming he's scum, it's just that they seem to make a lot more sense if he is.
As for the other, I'm not a little dismayed at the absolute lack of everything from Alice and Jan/Kerigis and the very little from Affinity. There's no much more I can say about them if they're not even playing the game.
As for the second part, I was hoping to have something from those two before, but since the game doesn't seem to be going forward even with the extension I might as well say it already.
I'm a town Psychologist, which by the description is basically a Psychiatrist (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Psychiatrist) without the Doctor function. And while I don't put it behind UK to throw it in as a red herring, this does strongly indicate a SK in the setup. Being 12 players in the setup, I would assume, for the sake of balance, that there are only two scum.
I targeted Carthrat night 1, mainly for his reserved and neutral attitude on day 1. And while I'm not informed of success or even in what order the actions take place, the fact that there wasn't a second night kill and that his flip didn't have a role descriptor (just flavor and alignment), indicates I might have gotten it right. (The alternative being that the SK didn't act/doesn't exist and that Carth was an exception to the role madness.)
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I was hoping that both Kerigis and Alice could say something so as to invite discussion, but it seems that this isn't so. In my opinion, the two prominent cases here, on Nietz and Zakeri have been run aground already; Nietz for making rather WIFOMy accusations (it makes sense if X is scummy) and questionable scumhunting (sitting on fence with the 'but it would be pretending" argument, and Zakeri for the history lessons and strange scumhunting.
If I were to have an opinion, I would be leaning more to Nietz as scum due to his day one actions which did not point very strongly to anything, which is a tried and tested scumtell. The roleclaim now for the reason that the game isn't going forward is also questionable.
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Na2O2 seems to be better due to his questioning and stuff, which helps Xan to some extent, and puts him above Alice and Kerigis at the very least.
Kiro also seemed like he was role-fishing with that restriction question; why did you ask it? Just because Nietz was acting weirdly doesn't seem to be sufficient enough justification.
Also, Serp, sorry if I missed it, but why are you still voting Na2O2? What do you think of his actions so far?
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Affinity: The way I worded my request to Nietz was to determine if he had a voting restriction. I really wanted to know why else he wouldn't vote for people early in the game. In other words, the only votes he's placed have been on an already existing bandwagon and only a singular vote. The sole exception is Unesco, but I wasn't going to say anything about that in case a supposed vote restriction could only deal with actual players or not. I wanted to give him as few leads as possible in case he decided to make up something. And whether he said he has one or not doesn't clear him, but merely gives consideration into why he may have been so passive through the game.
His lack of a restriction of any sort makes things a little worse for him though. In essence, he did not commit to any early case, not even to vote for the sake of basic Townie duty before going on Tenshi and declaring him pretty newbscum. Ditto with Day 2 and some suspicion on Zakeri and only voting him after I voted him. Can't say I like that too much.
The roleclaim and the problem with such a claim has been mentioned by Nietz himself so it's hard to say whether it's believable or not. The only thing I can think of to say though is that it's possible the mod will never release descriptions for any flips. While we can infer what Tenshi's Jazzy Jailkeep is, there was no description attached to it and we can't actually prove the role is what we think it is. The same pattern applied to Carth's MetalMixer and despite not being able to infer anything, we still didn't get a description. So bleh. I'd like a response from Nietz on why he didn't bother voting for cases in early parts of the Day. If anything, that's what got him into trouble in the first place.
But christ... for all of what Nietz has done; objectively Alice has done the same AND has had no content for the last 84 hours. I still have a case on him and I'm very unhappy he pops in now and then to say he'll post, but doesn't actually do so. Yet he also doesn't ask for a replacement? I am willing to consider his random checking in and not wanting to be replaced as a sign of Scum trying to lurk through the Day. Zakeri and Nietz are somewhat responsive and a Day and Night flip might clear up some things with them, particularly an Alice flip. But this whole thing is unacceptable and it's really time to put my foot down on this one.
##Unvote Zakeri
##Vote Alice Margatroid
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That last bunches of posts looks like a bunch of clarifications. Nothing really new to sink my teeth into, sadly, aside from the fact that Xandium is now actually posting.
Kiro's case on Zakeri is starting to look better, though I sort of disagree with part of his point on Zakeri #166 since Serp didn't jump until the bandwagon was a foregone conclusion (and the only other remotely possible choice was himself). I'm kind of upset that it took a second pass to look this way for me but I guess that's the nature of cases.
As for #124, I submit it was possible Zakeri could find no one he liked better and stuck his vote back on Serpentarius by the end of the post but that seems somewhat unlikely and diving into those sorts of hypotheticals is dumb anyway especially when I'm not Zakeri so I see what you're getting at there.
Why does Serp unvoting Alice make the inconsistency go away? Serp had still been "inconsistent" before he unvoted, so he had been inconsistent for a period of time.
I don't know, you'd have to ask Zakeri. Not knowing why he did it doesn't make me any less confident in what I think he did, though.
I would like mod clarification on the mechanics of someone being attacked at night and not killed before I form a solid opinion on Nietz's roleclaim. Is an attacked individiual notified of such?
Maybe, maybe not
List of Other Smallish Things I Don't Like
- Zakeri's recent AtE.
- Roukanken's antagonization of Zakeri here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg57451#msg57451). The first mini-paragraph in particular is highly unnecessary and isn't even relevant to the current game.
- Kiro giving Sodium a minipass on not saying a lot by suggesting Sodium may be waiting for the other inactives. Xan's finally here; make him talk.
- Sodium floating in the background without being forced to offer up a strong opinion. He's voted for an inactive and lightly brushed most things without taking anything heavily to task. Stop asking questions and give us "I think ______ is scum because ______".
- Alice not playing the game at all but everyone feels this way so.
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Everyone's favorite Nuclear-lover cat is here! Give him a big applause!
(Christ, I think joining here was a bad idea since I won't be running too much... whatever, the show must go on)
Okay, I'll try to recap:
Day 1:
-Serp kicked the ball. Made a bit of a fuss. Moving on.
-MAPs (Massive Alice Prods).
-Moonspeak making small and unconsistent posts wasn't good for his image. Or at least, that are the vibes from everyone.
-People aren't too happy with my previous incarnation as well.
Day 2:
-Reminiscence about flips.
-WoT from Kiro.
-Lurking matches and things on plays, etc.
-Roleclaim from Nietz. (I'd say it's a bit early for that...)
-More MAPs.
If you feel like I've missed something important I'd have to check, please feel free to yell at me for it.
This is just a sign to say I'm alive and kicking. I'll probably start going for a much detailed read.
No votes right now. The only important reaction to me was raising an eyebrow at Nietz's claim, though.
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Nietz's claim is very much 'eh'. I don't see why SK wouldn't kill N1, and unless both scum and SK targeted Carth then that's more or less what would have had to happen.
Plus his 'nothing is happening, screw it I'm claiming' attitude sounds sort of like 'I need an excuse to claim this townie-sounding role'.
- Roukanken's antagonization of Zakeri here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg57451#msg57451). The first mini-paragraph in particular is highly unnecessary and isn't even relevant to the current game.
I was getting very irritated with how Zak was wording his argument. He basically admitted 'I'll play anti-Town if I can't be bothered convincing people about my case', and he practically insulted everyone on the Sodium wagon while he was doing it. That's an attack on the person, not the case.
ALICE WHERE ARE YOU
Also Affinity has sort of been going under the radar, which always worries me a little.
Checking for prods and stuff now
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So in other words, you voted Sodium solely because you wanted the game to end and deliberately acted against the goals of your faction. Nice job.
I was getting very irritated with how Zak was wording his argument. He basically admitted 'I'll play anti-Town if I can't be bothered convincing people about my case', and he practically insulted everyone on the Sodium wagon while he was doing it. That's an attack on the person, not the case.
Take it to court.
Yes, I know I shouldn't have folded like a house of cards getting punched, but really that's exactly what lylo last game felt like to me. It's really taken it's toll on me, in case the majority of my previous posts don't have enough of a hint in them of this, to the point where I feel like I'm the only one who took it seriously enough to change his playstyle. I knew then it was hopeless, but it felt like everything that happened was my fault, so I took the loss into my hands, and now I'm trying to change myself so I never find myself in that situation again.
And Enough, Rou. This is NOT game discussion at all. This is not the place for this, and I'm getting stressed out again just having to talk about it. I'm almost willing myself in inactivity because I don't want to deal with this, and with two replacements and an Alice, we don't need more inactivity!
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Considering you were the one who asked about it in the first place, you should be expecting people to talk about it.
Nevertheless I agree that this isn't useful play, so I'll move on. I just don't like being painted the bad guy for giving an opinion when I'm asked for one.
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Considering that I probably won't be coming back before the deadline,
##Vote: Alice
which is probably the safest play for now; since modkills seem out of the question for today. The three posts he made on day one weren't very special of sorts (though perfectly fine for D1), and highlighted opinions which were quite general. While there were clear stances, it is not enough to absolve him from his absence today. I'm still weary of lynching Nietz for now, with Kerigis and Alice in the shadows, and would like to see what happens the next day.
In any case, Alice, if you have no time to type a full wall, you should just put out a vote at the very least, given the deadline.
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@Kiro: yes, because my statement that I was going to be more inactive than usual is somehow invalid? :V I do apologise for taking this long, but stuff came up etc. I should be fine now, at least until the weekend.
Just letting you all know that the next person to need replacing will probably get Wrathie filling the spot. Think long and hard about that before you decide to go inactive.
First off, responses:
This was weird considering that Tenshi's lynch was almost a certainty by that point, and had he flipped scum I would be considerably less suspicious for going after him when I did. This whole comment seems based on the notion that he would flip town.
Wait, what? How does my opinion on Moonspeak's alignment influence you being scummy for lacking an opinion on ANYONE?
I noticed you vote Jan-san in #71 for the standard reasons. But what I think stands out to me the most is your #87 when you question what Tenshi was doing and make no comment about Jan-san's post above yours including his unvote. For someone who was unhappy about Jan-san, you are suddenly quite single-minded in your pursuit of Tenshi. That single-mindedness gives me the impression of scummy intent, that you're just itching to vote Tenshi, but also don't want to jump on too quickly. And to reiterate my point from before, you justify your vote saying "nobody is this scummy, but I remembered about ras255" is rather selective thinking. But we were wrong about Nuclear Fusion last game and we're wrong about Tenshi this game. Your evidence there is faulty. I think you were trying too hard to look ok while voting Tenshi so I find your vote on his bandwagon the most telling. And then at the end, you just state you're going to go after Jan-san again. See below about why I'm wary of that.
Honestly, Jan was pretty bad, but...the problem with cases like Moonspeak and Nuclear Fusion is that you really don't know what to do. Past a certain point of flailing, someone can seal their doom in mafia since there's just too much WIFOM in trying to determine their alignment, and the only thing that can do this is an investigative role, which is not only prone to failure (RBs, Godfathers, etc.), but also can be best used elsewhere. So I stand by my Moonspeak vote, and I would have voted Nuclear Fusion D2 in Umineko despite his claim, as the WIFOM and nuttery at that point just hit ridiculous levels.
Because Alice claims Nietz can't hold a clear and concise opinion which is incorrect because he had one on Tenshi.
I went over NEETz's posts and didn't find this. All I found were lots of accusations of "null tell". So if you think he did have one, link to the relevant post?
Also on reread, I didn't necessarily like his case on Roukan on a point that didn't look like it would go far and the case on Nietz feels a little half hearted for some reason.
The case on Rou was notably odd, but as a general rule going off on weird tangential cases D1 seems to be more of a Town-tell in general than a Scum-tell. Reason being that Scum really have no point in trying to vote for someone who almost certainly won't be a lynch that day, and it makes them look noticeably awkward.
The whole point was that Alice was already looking forward to me being pursued Day 2. Don't tell me you didn't notice that.
Um, where is this? I said it's notable to keep an eye on you and see if you suddenly gain scumhunting skills or not, because of how you work when you're scum. Misrep much?
Anyway, this current situation is a bit weird. Relevant opinions:
First off, @mod, what was Carthrat's role as flipped? Vanilla Townie?
Don't think it said Vanilla Townie, but what does a rabbit like me know? Maybe the cat could tell you, but she needs the soul to even know who they are.
Now, NEETz is weird. D1 he acts like a typical scum-NEETz, then D2 after a lot of prodding he gets into things and starts at least trying to scumhunt, though I don't like his conclusions. His roleclaim seemed a bit early (there are still 10 hours left in the day, and he wasn't at L-1), and what's arguably weirder is he claimed an obscure role which implies a second killing party, then claims to have used it on The Dead Guy, which explains why there was only one NK N1.
First off, @mod: if such a role were to exist in this game, and were to cure a hypothetical SK-Carthrat N1, would his N1 kill still go through, or not? Most of the time I've seen shrinks used, the townieficiation only became relevant starting the next night.
No idea. Ask Eirin?
Of course, this seems like something that could clear itsself up if we wait long enough and then notice a pair of NKs one night. Waiting until D3 sounds good for me, especially since NEETz is just starting to contribute now and this seems like something that we could check out. Possible vote target, but not my first.
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I basically hate, loathe and despise everything about Xan's play, but at the same time, the fact that Town-Xan ALSO works this way leaves me to be ultimately uncertain about his scumminess. Possible vote target, but again, I'd have to think about it a bit more.
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At the beginning of D1, I thought that Jan-san was likely scum, with the only point against him being that he voted for Serp D1 instead of the obvious free bandwagon. It still makes mild sense for Scum-Jan to vote Town-Serp like this, but it more-or-less eliminates a Jan/Serp scumpair in my mind *at this point*. Need more input from Sodium Chlorate now, he seems to be almost uncharacteristically wishy-washy, but considering he just replaced a lurker in this game, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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I'm not seeing the case on Zakeri very much. In fact, D1 seems to play out very much in his favour! He didn't slap down a vote for the obvious bandwagon, instead trying to point out why coaching is not necessarily bad (an opinion I disagree with personally, but one which is not in and of itsself anti-Town...). Some of his other actions, like voting me without much reasoning, or his move to Serp after this for...uh, very questionable reasons, are bad, and I'm not sure about his reasoning on Nietz (slaps down 3 cases on Nietz, Carthrat and Xan, all 3 of which have weak reasoning, proceeds to vote the one most likely to get lynched), but I can't see him being scum at this point due to him not jumping onto the Moonspeak wagon.
Going to have to think about this some more. Current suspicion goes Nietz > Zakeri (which would be a vote right now if him not being on the Moonspeak wagon confounds him being Scum) > Xan/Sodium Aspartate > Jan-san/Kerigis. Going to think about this a bit more and slap down a vote in my next post, in 2 hours or so.
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Don't think it said Vanilla Townie, but what does a rabbit like me know? Maybe the cat could tell you, but she needs the soul to even know who they are.
Smart-aleck comments aside, what in the actual fuck is a "Metalmixer"? I've never heard of such a role before and it's not on the MS wiki either.
We'll see after the game.
I dunno, but it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?
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Zakeri's vote on Alice in #55 still looks like a convenient placeholder vote to me as he wasn't sure "where to take my vote to lynch now." I'm not saying that he wants to vote Alice to lynch, but rather, he's not ready to commit to anything early on which is pretty much just like Nietz at the time.
Well, the only thing we had to respond to at the time was Serp's sudden Serious Business, which many thought was a good reactionary vote. I was under the impression that Serp had managed to find some evidence that Alice had been on shortly before he had. I took a quick look, and by coincidence, there was evidence. So I voted based on that.
Also, I think it's weird that you call me out on not wanting to Vote to Lynch both So early in the day and while my reason for voting Alice was "Why didn't you Random vote?" The only other person that was worth voting at the time was only questionably scummy, as my later questioning proves.
An unvote of Serp should only come because of something Serp did and the main things was him unvoting Alice...
The main reason behind my vote of Serp was
1. Admiting his reasoning for voting Alice was bad (Considering it a Null-tell)
2. Keeping his vote on Alice
Where exactly is the discrepancy? Yes, I still feel it's suspicious, but the main problem was taken care of, and there's not much more reason to pursue it unless I think Alice is town. Of which I'm doubting due to His recent lack of presence.
Should note that Serp did vote Tenshi in the end. So in that sense, you are ignoring him because his vote did help to secure the lynch. Why do the scum have to be amongst Nietz and the people before him?
I was mainly focusing on the large wagon near the top of the page, but looking back, I agree Serp's vote of Tenshi should be given as much of a look over as Neitz, Xan, and Alice's votes need to be.
Affinity: The way I worded my request to Nietz was to determine if he had a voting restriction.
...A Voting restriction? Seriously? What makes you think there would be such a restriction in the first place? Unless this is a bastard mod game, it's highly doubtful that there would be a "Scummy Voting Only" Restriction put on a townie. You're not afraid to call me out on my Prod on Alice, and the weird look behind my Unvote of Serp, yet you're hesitant to Assume that Neitz's Bandwagon of Bandwagons it worth considering scummy?
Neitz starts out with FoSing my post on him, since I had "More points on Carthrat than I had on him." Which, is missing the point since I felt Neitz's play was more likely to come from scum than Carthrat's. He continues mentioning this offhandedly right up until his first post after Kiro makes an entire Case around me.
It's worth noting that he did bring up the stance on Tenshi and held it up for quite a while, even after my refutation. It seems to be the only decent point he's holding though.
As for Neitz's roleclaim, it does make a certain kind of sense, but it has certain problems with it. It borrows on the "I targeted a dead guy." and it's miniscule enough a role that there's unlikely any sort of counter claim, even with all of the extra roles in this game. It's also too vague what a metalmixer is, and It's weird how he adds in that "It might just be the mod screwing with us if there isn't a Serial Killer on the loose."
Several Cuts:
1. Thanks :)
2. Safevote turns out not to be safe. Irony ensues.
3. I'm basically considering Xan's play Null, since I could see the basic workings of a townie who's just not invested in the game as well as bandwagoning scum. I'm willing to Judge Sodium on his own merits, whenever those show up.
4. All I have on me is useless speculation, if you still want it.
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Because Alice claims Nietz can't hold a clear and concise opinion which is incorrect because he had one on Tenshi.
I went over NEETz's posts and didn't find this. All I found were lots of accusations of "null tell". So if you think he did have one, link to the relevant post?
He had an opinion on Tenshi. He thought he was nubscum and voted him. If you stand by your vote on Tenshi, I might also assume he stands by his.
Also on reread, I didn't necessarily like his case on Roukan on a point that didn't look like it would go far and the case on Nietz feels a little half hearted for some reason.
The case on Rou was notably odd, but as a general rule going off on weird tangential cases D1 seems to be more of a Town-tell in general than a Scum-tell. Reason being that Scum really have no point in trying to vote for someone who almost certainly won't be a lynch that day, and it makes them look noticeably awkward.
This is entirely your opinion subject to WIFOM. Using it in your own defense is not giving me a good feeling.
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At the beginning of D1, I thought that Jan-san was likely scum, with the only point against him being that he voted for Serp D1 instead of the obvious free bandwagon. It still makes mild sense for Scum-Jan to vote Town-Serp like this, but it more-or-less eliminates a Jan/Serp scumpair in my mind *at this point*. Need more input from Sodium Chlorate now, he seems to be almost uncharacteristically wishy-washy, but considering he just replaced a lurker in this game, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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How did any of the flips (or lack thereof for Serp or Jan) convince you to change your mind on this issue?
I'm not seeing the case on Zakeri very much. In fact, D1 seems to play out very much in his favour! He didn't slap down a vote for the obvious bandwagon, instead trying to point out why coaching is not necessarily bad (an opinion I disagree with personally, but one which is not in and of itsself anti-Town...). Some of his other actions, like voting me without much reasoning, or his move to Serp after this for...uh, very questionable reasons, are bad, and I'm not sure about his reasoning on Nietz (slaps down 3 cases on Nietz, Carthrat and Xan, all 3 of which have weak reasoning, proceeds to vote the one most likely to get lynched), but I can't see him being scum at this point due to him not jumping onto the Moonspeak wagon.
Noted. Let's get this post out first while I check Zakeri's.
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Also, I think it's weird that you call me out on not wanting to Vote to Lynch both So early in the day and while my reason for voting Alice was "Why didn't you Random vote?" The only other person that was worth voting at the time was only questionably scummy, as my later questioning proves.
Hey, saying you didn't know where to put your vote to lynch was in your own words. I don't expect people in early Day 1 to necessarily know where to put their votes to lynch, but you bringing it up indicates you're conscious of it and perhaps worried about making your vote useful.
An unvote of Serp should only come because of something Serp did and the main things was him unvoting Alice...
The main reason behind my vote of Serp was
1. Admiting his reasoning for voting Alice was bad (Considering it a Null-tell)
2. Keeping his vote on Alice
Where exactly is the discrepancy? Yes, I still feel it's suspicious, but the main problem was taken care of, and there's not much more reason to pursue it unless I think Alice is town. Of which I'm doubting due to His recent lack of presence.
Noted. An unvote of Serp though should also consider other actions he performed which in that same period had him vote Tenshi (a wagon you avoided and/or were conflicted about) and then unvoting Tenshi and voting Jan-san. It seems you ignored that and focussed strictly on his unvote of Alice. *stares*
Should note that Serp did vote Tenshi in the end. So in that sense, you are ignoring him because his vote did help to secure the lynch. Why do the scum have to be amongst Nietz and the people before him?
I was mainly focusing on the large wagon near the top of the page, but looking back, I agree Serp's vote of Tenshi should be given as much of a look over as Neitz, Xan, and Alice's votes need to be.
Noted.
My approach with Nietz is mainly why he didn't bother to vote early. I came to a conclusion that it had to be that he either degenerated as a player or he was being restricted. The fact that he states he's rather uninspired for this game is now making me not rule out the first point. Frankly, his answers make him look more worthy of a vote to me now.
Damn, can we get another extension or something? Or at least a specific deadline time and votecount. Having to rush this with an estimated 30 minutes left is not my idea of a good time.
Deadline is in 36.5 hours at 10:00 PM EST, Tuesday, August 11.
I won't be around for this, but Orin definitely should
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The Elventh "GOD DAMNIT TEWI!" Vote Count
Tewi! EienTewi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXgyKeOnK2s)
Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Nietz (3): Roukanken, Zakeri, Suwako Moriya
Suwako Moriya (0)
EX Na2O2 (1): Serpentarius
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (1): Nietz
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (3) :Sodium, Kiro, Affinity
Kerigis (0)
Not Voting (2): Alice, Kerigis
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch
Nietz is at L-3, Alice is at L-3
Deadline is in 8.5 hours at 10:00 PM EST, Tuesday, August 11.
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Alert for Kiro to check the Pesco edit to his post just in case he hasn't noticed already.
Catching up, gimme a moment.
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EBWOP: Oh... in my post replying to Alice: the second paragraph actually has my quote referring to Suwako rather than to cases Alice presented himself. Otherwise, the basic idea of the point still stands.
And geez... didn't know the voted Extension got us 33 hours instead of 24.
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Damn, can we get another extension or something? Or at least a specific deadline time and votecount. Having to rush this with an estimated 30 minutes left is not my idea of a good time.
It was given last vote count. The new deadline is in nine hours.
Hey, saying you didn't know where to put your vote to lynch was in your own words. I don't expect people in early Day 1 to necessarily know where to put their votes to lynch, but you bringing it up indicates you're conscious of it and perhaps worried about making your vote useful.
But it's the job of town to make their vote useful. Of course I'd be worried about it. Is ... is this even an accusation anymore? The way you put it, it's got this weird "Hey man, don't blame me for insulting yourself." feel to it, like you're disassociating it to yourself.
Noted.
Noted.
My approach with Nietz is mainly why he didn't bother to vote early. I came to a conclusion that it had to be that he either degenerated as a player or he was being restricted. The fact that he states he's rather uninspired for this game is now making me not rule out the first point. Frankly, his answers make him look more worthy of a vote to me now.
Still, the Idea of a voting restriction is rather silly to contemplate. This does quell some worry, though.
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I would like mod clarification on the mechanics of someone being attacked at night and not killed before I form a solid opinion on Nietz's roleclaim. Is an attacked individiual notified of such?
Maybe, maybe not
Well that's all sorts of helpful.
This leaves me torn on the roleclaim. On one hand, it's weird enough to be in this setup. On the other hand...it's weird enough to be in this setup. ScumNietz could have pulled something out of his ass just as easily as TownNietz could be telling the truth, and with no reliable way to check if someone else was attacked last night we have a hard time determining if there is an SK or not (and this check itself isn't even totally reliable, given the number of non-doc non-BP ways last night could have played out with an SK present).
I'm...going to leave my vote where it is. The number of scummy things Nietz has done outweighs whatever could be gleaned in his favor from the roleclaim after one gets by all the aneurysms.
Kerigis shows up, gives us a news report...and disappears. Grah.
I still want to hear who Sodium thinks is scummy and why. Normally less than 12 hours with no response wouldn't be enough to get me impatient but there's just under 9 left in the day, so.
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Still haven't changed my mind, still think Jan-san is awful, waiting for more input from his replacement. Simply find the action of him voting for Serp weird enough that I'm not ready to jump on him, especially as it has the clear implication of "either one of Jan-san or Serp is scum, but not both".
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Alice posted! Huzzah!
Also a bit of "derp" when Alice said "Nietz isn't my first vote target", then in the end, lists him as first in his scumlist. >_>
Nietz:
"Oh Hai Guize, My role depends on the existence of a SK, and I targeted the dead guy. I'm also roleclaiming at an awkward time."
=<
Well, I don't really like roleclaims followed by "I targetted the dead guy", unless it's a vig or something, where it would make sense that they're dead. Then there's the timing of the roleclaim(not close to the deadline at all, and only at L-3), and how there's no evidence of a SK being in the game.
Kiro:Derp
Suwako: Nietz. I like the case on him, I don't like his case on Alice(OMG, ALICE WANTS TO KEEP AN EYE ON ME, HE MUST'VE KNOWN THAT TENSHI WOULD FLIP TOWN), and I don't like his roleclaim.
Second would be Affinity or Kerigis. Kerigis because the collective Jan-san and Kerigis have produced little to NOTHING, and Affinity seems to just be dropping in, giving vague opinions, then leaving for a while before dropping in again.
Well, I'm removing my Alice vote as he's finally posted, and I don't really see Nietz's case on Alice. I also no longer think that the Zakeri case is viable at this point in time(both in reasoning and number of votes), so that leaves Nietz. I agree with the case on him(lack of anything early day 1, jumping onto Tenshi wagon, etc), and his roleclaim isn't believable, in my opinion. If he DOES flip what he said he is, then it means that there's a good chance that there's a SK(or that Unesco is screwing with us, VERY MUCH).
##Unvote
##Vote Nietz L-2
Kerigis, you there? >_> All you did was drop some IIoA, then ran away.
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I'll start by saying that no explanation of new roles on flip is bull. :/
Alice has arrived and posted. But I'm seconding Sodium's raised eyebrows over the 'Nietz isn't my main suspect but he's at the top of my list' point. T_T
Kerigis is sort of horrible, but we'll see if he picks up by Day 3.
Honestly not much new has come up, so I'll repeat my belief that Nietz's claim is too convenient and press on.
I never do it in my MS games. Why should I do it here?
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Well, frankly, the best thing town could do is to let me die today. As I said, I'm not particularly inspired for this game and my death would at lest be helpful by 1) confirming what I said about my role and the setup and 2) avoiding carrying this distraction into Day 3. And anyway, if I was right about the setup and Carth, then LYLO is still away.
Sorry about this, I'm too worried about other stuff lately to play the game properly, but I'll try to come with some decent opinions before the deadline.
NEETz
Fine, I put the title back. :V
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I never do it in my MS games. Why should I do it here?
Not only is it standard as per this site, it's also what generally is the case on MS. This is mildly hateful and means the Town lacks critical information.
That's simply how this round works. Move along, we aren't telling.
You get their alignment. That's pretty critical information. In the games I started with we didn't play with reveal at all. Town can cope. I mod differently. Sorry you weren't aware as I had never had complaints about it before
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That's simply how this round works. Move along, we aren't telling.
T_T
Crying moe will NOT work, Rou :P
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Sodium is apparently scumhunting. I don't find any flaws in his reasoning so far, and what little of Xan's conduct there was on D1 wasn't really scummy in my view. I was keeping my vote on him to wait for Alice and Kerigis to show up and post, since a prod on either of them wouldn't have really been useful.
##Unvote
Alice's wall gives us a bunch of relevant opinions, which is as good as we can expect from someone who was gone for the whole day. I don't like the fact that he got to watch the whole day play out before giving his stances on anything, but what can you do? Here's what stands out to me:
Some of his other actions, like voting me without much reasoning, or his move to Serp after this for...uh, very questionable reasons, are bad, and I'm not sure about his reasoning on Nietz (slaps down 3 cases on Nietz, Carthrat and Xan, all 3 of which have weak reasoning, proceeds to vote the one most likely to get lynched), but I can't see him being scum at this point due to him not jumping onto the Moonspeak wagon.
This is the second time someone has raised avoiding the Moonspeak wagon as being some sort of meaningful towntell - and this time, it's coming from someone who jumped on the wagon early himself! Alice, can you explain why avoiding contributing to a mislynch that was virtually guaranteed to go through anyway is a good enough towntell to bump Zakeri below Nietz in your eyes?
Anyway, the reason why I haven't really been convinced about the Zakeri case is that in his 72, just before he placed his vote on me, he said "Yes, we get it, it was the only thing you could do that looked pro-town. That was back then, though, what about now?" It was nothing more than a prod for me to move on past Alice and see who was worst among those responding to my initial case. Not a very useful vote, but he wasn't being inconsistent when he unvoted me. The coaching stuff was also relevant since there had been some fingers of suspicion raised about coaching Moonspeak. I don't like writing defenses of other people, but we need to settle on our lynch for today, and I haven't seen anything overtly scummy in Zakeri's posting since then.
This business with Nietz sucks on several levels. He's basically throwing his hands up and leaving. Could be a desperate stunt by scum to avoid a lynch. As for his roleclaim, I'm not sure what to make of it. I'm not sure why he claimed when he did, and the lack of a second kill last night means it's a pretty safe claim for scum. Also note the lack of a selfvote despite claiming that "the best thing town could do is let me die today" means he's either exaggerating or he's trying really hard to look like he doesn't care whether he lives or dies. I'm leaning towards the latter.
##Vote Nietz (L-1)
Kerigis's post isn't useful at all, except as a confirmation that he's kind of present. I'm really hoping that he shows up to give his opinions on all the main cases before the deadline. Considering Jan-san's D1 conduct and all the weird statements others have made about him, I'm fine with Kerigis as a lynch if Nietz suddenly shapes up and Kerigis fails to put out any real opinions before the deadline.
Oh, incidentally, when thinking on the role name "Metal Mixer" just now, I realized that it might mean Bus Driver (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bus_Driver), but considering that this game is called Touhou Remix, maybe I shouldn't put too much stock in a role name having "mix" somewhere in it.
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Okay, I really I'm going to type this very quickly, since I am not supposed to be using the computer from my uni to do this. I should be programming. Also, I think I've learned that, at least for me, hopping on a game is not very good for me as I can't concentrate really well. So, in any case, I'm gonna extend my recap.
To me, Serp kicking the ball was a ":/" moment to me. Nothing of that accusation is really well there as is just a call on not random voting or how the game should be played. Not really worth going in circles for that.
Let me explain my reasoning a little more fully. As I see it, everyone has a duty to put a RVS post out there for others to analyze, for what little it's worth, as soon as they see that the game has started.
This is just pulling the strings too much.
As well as the Tenshi/Moonspeak Wagon, I've gotta be honest here, I would've ended up jumping on it too if I were playing. Although it would be, to me at least, more like treating Moonspeak as the sacrificial lamb to see who is sneering at the ritual. I like how Kiro still mantained focus on Serp, despite how bad Tenshi looked. Alice's switch was triggered by that... nonsense vote.
Nietz kicked off judging things because of previous game happenings which I don't really like. And, well, practically gave up.
Stuff happened because of the replacements, which stirred some unease among the people.
All-in-all, that's how I see it right now. I have some doubts about Serp for the thing early.
And okay, I can hammer if you want. How much time left?
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Deadline's in about 40 minutes.
I have nothing particularly new to add, aside from a hope that we see a lot more from Kerigis, Alice, Sodium and Affinity on Day 3.
Wrong. Deadline in an hour and a half. I'll post a votecount or something like that...
At the day's end.
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Agh, whatever. No matter what I think about, it all comes down to either Zakeri or NEETz.
@Serp: simply because it's something vaguely unexpected of a scum to do. In retrospect, at the time of Zak's post it wasn't AS likely that Moonspeak was virtually guaranteed to...yeah no whatever. It's not a big point in his favour on second though.
Actually would prefer a Zakeri lynch at the moment, though I am perfectly fine with hammering NEETz. Will be around during deadline to do so, if needed.
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This is a lazy here's where you stand votecount:
Nietz is at L-1
Alice is at L-4
Alice and Keri aren't voting.
Deadline is in an hour and a half.
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24 minutes. Do you all enjoy wasting your last hour or something?
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Shut it mod.
Waiting to see if Nietz will post any last thoughts or not.
In the meanwhile, go prep your phase change post so we get instant gratification at 10:01 PM EST.
I've had everything except flavor prepped since 8:45. I always do flavor on the fly =^-^=
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...nope, I've got nothing.
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The Twelth "End of Day 2" Vote Count
U.N Owen was Her? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryy00VN9C2Y)
Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Nietz (5): Roukanken, Zakeri, Suwako Moriya, Sodium, Serpentarius
Suwako Moriya (0)
EX Na2O2 (0):
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (1): Nietz
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (2): Kiro, Affinity
Kerigis (0)
Not Voting (2): Alice, Kerigis
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch
Nietz has been lynched by default with 5 votes.
Deadline is NOW. Sucks, ne?
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Deadline shut up!
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As another day passes in your alternate versiness of universeness space, I finally return from the dealers room.
Me: Nyaa~ I found this really cute dress (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LittleBlackDress) in the dealers room! I'm sure it'll go with almost ANYTHING I could wear...oh, did you all decide who's soul I get today?
ZUN: Um...kinda. Most of us want Nietz to die, but we don't really have a majority...
Me: Ah well, that's fine. So, have you all lynched him yet?
ZUN: Um...no
Me: That's ok! I'll just take care of that.
And I do...though it smells a little like a barbecue now.
Me: Well, blowing up a couple souls attached to him certainly took care of that!
ZUN: um...you really shouldn't be able to interact with the real world like that.
Me: Nyaa~
So...let's see...Nietz was...
Nietz, Xepher Cradle, Townie Neoclassical Psychologist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryy00VN9C2Y), and he's been lynched.
Sorry, ZUN, doesn't look like he stole your music!
Deadline for night actions is between 24 and 48 hours from now. Have fun ^-^
Oh yeah, send em to Unesco.
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Nyaaaaaaawn~
Ah, it would appear that it's day again. And apparently there are only 8 of you left. And...ZUN? ZUN isn't here!? That's bad! Oh no! What will we do-
/me is interrupted by a loud drunken burp
ZUN: Shorry I'm late!
Me: ZUN! You worried me! If I took your soul I'd probably be drunk for at least 100 years (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/At_least_100_years_ago) or so.
ZUN: Your a fis-fin-figment of my imashinatshun. Yoo can't get drunk!
Me: Whatever. Anyway it looks like no one died last night.
/me says this with a VERY disappointed look on her face. Even the ears are drooping
ZUN: All the better! We can bring thoshe crimnalsh that shtoleded my mushic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KleptomaniacHero) to jushtish...or shomething...I needsh a drink.
Me: Um...you could probably do that anyway...and I don't think you need anymore...
ZUN: Ah...shush up you imashinuryial cat!
Me: Well...anyway...
That's how it seems. No one died last night, so I guess you all should get back to killing each other. I'll get a soul out of this somehow!
NO ONE DIED LAST NIGHT. D2 START!
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The Thirteenth "Start of Day 3" Vote Count
Overdrive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB5IIsX0wS4)
Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Suwako Moriya (0)
EX Na2O2 (0)
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (0)
Kerigis (0)
Not Voting ⑨: Alice, Kerigis, Serpentarius, Zakeri, Kiro, EX Na2O2, Suwako Moriya, Affinity, Roukanken
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is in 72 hours at 1:00 PM EST on Sunday, August 16.
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Well, that answers my question about NK survival PMs. I got attacked last night.
##Vote: EX Na2O2 for being the swing vote to secure the Nietz lynch over a potential Alice lynch with some fairly weak reasoning. This is on top of everything Xan did(n't) do, as well as all the questioning with very little opinioning Sodium did after he entered the game.
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Well, that answers my question about NK survival PMs. I got attacked last night.
Hm? Explain.
I took off my Alice vote because he finally posted something of worth. I also didn't really find anything disagreeable, minus the whole "Nietz is not my first vote target" and then putting Nietz first in his suspicions list. Meanwhile, Nietz was pretty bad throughout Day 1 and 2, and I didn't like the Zakeri case that much after thinking about it for a while.
While I didn't really have a solid stance when I had just replaced Xan, almost half the players weren't active, so there wasn't much I could say except "HE/SHE'S LURKING!" and there were also some players who I thought were town, so I didn't need to say anything about those people. I also couldn't add anything to the Nietz or Zakeri case at the time, so yeah.
Well, I'm currently suspicious of Kerigis for his IIoA posts, and lacking any real opinion. Jan-san doing very little doesn't exactly help either. I am slightly lenient on the lack of opinion, because replacing someone is usually hard, especially the "catch up" posts. I'd like your opinion on who you think are scum now though.
Then there's Alice who finally posted, but I'd like to see a lot more from him. I doubt anyone will find it acceptable if he continues his current level of activity. Lurking may be his meta, but disappearing for most of the day is not good. Basically: MOAR PLS.
Affinity is also weird for dropping in near the end of the day and plopping a vote onto the Alice mini-wagon, when it was gathering steam. Seemed opportunistic to me, and his general behavior this game has been to pop in and give vague opinions. Didn't say anything after Alice's post, but he did say he was going to be away and not make it to the deadline. I'd like to know your current thoughts on Alice.
Not putting down a vote yet, as I wish to wait for more from Alice and Kerigis, and Affinity to answer my request of his thoughts on Alice.
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EBWOP: Seeing as this is a touhou board, and UFO and SWR expansion(and other things) are coming out within 48 hours, I'd like to ask everyone if and how said releases(and more) would affect their activity in the game. I know that they'll probably affect my posting here for a day or two, so yeah.
UFOs coming out now!? YAY! I shall have to piratize this I mean legally buy like a productive citizen UFO...yeeeeaaaaaah....
Um, I'll extend prod worthy inactivity to 36 hours in light of this
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Want to see a fullclaim from Suwako, since he's just about claimed BP. Admittedly the claim will need to be taken with a pinch of salt, since I'm not seeing a rule saying that scum can't choose not to NK.
Anywho, after a re-read I'm somewhat offput by Affinity. His D2 posts can be summarised as thus:
"I'm suspicious of the two inactives who will eventually get replaced. Also I definitely didn't have anything to do with yesterday's lynch." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg55570#msg55570)
"I don't think Zak is scummy. Would like to see Nietz and Xan vote." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg55751#msg55751) Note that he conveniently didn't mention Jan-san despite being at least as bad a lurker as Xan was.
"Fine with Suwako questioning Serp, unvote because appasrently not voting anyone generates conversation. Sudden RAGE at Jan-san dropping out." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg56605#msg56605)
"I wish Alice and Kerigis had posted. Meanwhile I'm most suspicious of Nietz with Zakeri second." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg57614#msg57614)
"Despite my previous statement, I'm going to vote Alice anyway since it's 'safer'. Suddenly I'm convinced that lynching Nietz is a BAD idea." (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg57842#msg57842)
So yeah, his tip-toeing around the two lynches and his strange ability to forget/disregard Kerigis-san are making me uncomfortable.
##Vote: Affinity
I don't think C76 will hold me up that much, though I think it is only safe to take an extension or something.
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@Sodium: read (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg57647#msg57647)
@Roukanken: Why should I roleclaim? There are a couple ways I could have survived that NK, and I see no reason to tell everyone if I know why I survived or not. It'll just give scum extra information.
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@Roukanken: Why should I roleclaim? There are a couple ways I could have survived that NK, and I see no reason to tell everyone if I know why I survived or not. It'll just give scum extra information.
Touche. I suppose I wasn't thinking hard enough on this one. Apologies.
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@Mod: Can you clarify if rule #7 has "night actions" also applying to Scum Night Kills?
Um...I think it's pretty self evident that ANY night action will be randomized. If it's done at night, and I get no direction, well, quite obviously it will be randomized
I can agree with Suwako's case on Xan/Sodium. Sodium didn't vote when he replaced in and he hasn't voted in Day 3. For posting a lot, you're not very firm about your opinions. In Day 2, he eventually votes Alice, but only to prod him (you even point out that Alice is not needing of a prod yet in #186, and actually prod him in #204), because he unvotes Alice after Alice posts and finally decides then that Nietz is a better case.
Well, I'm removing my Alice vote as he's finally posted, and I don't really see Nietz's case on Alice. I also no longer think that the Zakeri case is viable at this point in time(both in reasoning and number of votes), so that leaves Nietz. I agree with the case on him(lack of anything early day 1, jumping onto Tenshi wagon, etc), and his roleclaim isn't believable, in my opinion. If he DOES flip what he said he is, then it means that there's a good chance that there's a SK(or that Unesco is screwing with us, VERY MUCH).
Why does it seem like you're saying that "Nietz's case on Alice" being bad is what convinces you that Alice is ok? I had a case on Alice as well and you don't seem to take that into consideration. The Alice and Nietz bandwagons were equal at the time, but you never bothered to consider that Alice could be a viable lynch, even when you mentioned that the Zakeri case was not viable due to reasoning and number of votes. But you don't treat the Alice bandwagon the same way which I find to be strangely selective thinking. Suwako has already mentioned the point that you were the shifting force into the Nietz mislynch.
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Alice: You put Nietz at the top of your list but when Nietz is at L-1, you say you would prefer a Zakeri lynch? What the heck is this? Explain please. Can't even tell of this is a backtrack because you had no vote in Day 2... this is becoming a familiar theme.
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Rou: Your first link there is misleading. He and nobody else knew at the time the lurkers were going to get replaced. 2nd link, you're neglecting the fact that he voted Xan in the first one. There's less of a need to mention that Jan-san is as bad of a lurker as Xan is when he's already got a vote on Xan. And in your last link, you state Affinity is "convinced" that lynching Nietz is a bad idea. That's not what he said, that's pretty bad misrep.
The tiptoeing around the 2 lynches is also not a scumtell. And the disregarding of Kerigis-san is presuming that he could be Scum and should be noted. Now, let's do a quick comparison. I avoided both lynches as well and stated that I think Jan-san/Kerigis is probably Town. Objectively, doesn't that make me worse than him? And you don't mention or vote me at all.
I think your reasoning on your Affinity case mostly sucks and I'm bumping you way up on the suspicion list. The Xan case is a decent one and Affinity had a vote on that for awhile. The vote on Alice is the only thing that is reasonably suspicious, but I find it a bit of a null at the moment due to the circumstances of Alice's absence.
Going to vote you to highlight this particular case. As part of the issue I had with Zakeri being a distraction in Day 1 was due to Roukan arguing with him point for point in both Day 1 and Day 2, I think my case on Zakeri is not as good anymore. In particular, some of the points you presented like "school of hard knocks," and your one sarcastic point exacerbated the conversation and I can get the feeling you were egging Zakeri on.
##Vote Roukanken
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Rou: Your first link there is misleading. He and nobody else knew at the time the lurkers were going to get replaced.
Scum don't know or care about that, but the fact is that scum can abuse lurkers and use them as valid reasons for mislynches
2nd link, you're neglecting the fact that he voted Xan in the first one. There's less of a need to mention that Jan-san is as bad of a lurker as Xan is when he's already got a vote on Xan.
Why is Xan worthy of his suspicion, and not Jan-san? He explicitly calls out Xan for lurking, but lets Jan away with doing the same thing. That's what my problem is.
And in your last link, you state Affinity is "convinced" that lynching Nietz is a bad idea. That's not what he said, that's pretty bad misrep.
The fact is he jumped from 'Nietz is the scummiest player around right now' to 'I'm wary of lynching Nietz' with no new posts from Nietz inbetween. Why?
The tiptoeing around the 2 lynches is also not a scumtell. And the disregarding of Kerigis-san is presuming that he could be Scum and should be noted.
I am suspicious of Kerigis-san given that Jan posted nothing of use and all Kerigis has done is spout IIoA since the replacement.
And the explicitly mentioning 'Hey guys this is why I wasn't on the Tenshi wagon' felt sort of pointless.
Now, let's do a quick comparison. I avoided both lynches as well and stated that I think Jan-san/Kerigis is probably Town. Objectively, doesn't that make me worse than him? And you don't mention or vote me at all.
Were you supporting the Nietz lynch through everything except a vote before suddenly turning on someone else at the last minute? Because that's what Affinity was doing.
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EBWOP: The misrep with 'wary of lynching Nietz' was a matter of misinterpreting word choice, but still it's a large jump to make from 'I think he's the scummiest around right now' to 'I'm really uncertain about voting him'.
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Well, that answers my question about NK survival PMs. I got attacked last night.
##Vote: EX Na2O2 for being the swing vote to secure the Nietz lynch over a potential Alice lynch with some fairly weak reasoning. This is on top of everything Xan did(n't) do, as well as all the questioning with very little opinioning Sodium did after he entered the game.
Was the Alice wagon really viable when Sodium made that vote? The votes on Alice were pretty much just prods to show up and post something, and after he did, no one else seemed to find his post voteworthy.
##Vote Kerigis
I'm unsatisfied with the lack of any definite, relevant stances from Kerigis, and it also seems like he's still stuck analyzing early D1. His play, together with Jan-san's, looks scummiest to me. I don't want to let Janigis-san slip below the radar again.
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My ONLY point in voting Alice was because he was lurker supreme(well, that and Kerigis, but I disgress), and so I voted to prod. Alice then posted, and because I didn't like Nietz's or anyone else's case on Alice afterwords, I had no reason to vote Alice. Also, I was assuming that the others voting Alice would end up removing their votes, as I felt that they were also prods.
Next, I evaluated the two other main cases that had any chance of actually resulting in a lynch, and found that I thought Zakeri's case was weaker then Nietz's, so I voted Nietz. Also, Zakeri had a single vote on him too, so me voting Zakeri would've had almost no effect. Afterwords, Nietz posted his last post, that was basically him saying "Just lynch me".
Oh, and apparently, all the Touhou stuff at C76 will come at Saturday Night/Sunday Morning(as in, it'll be available on the tubes), so the day should end around then, unless we get an EXTEND. So yeah. Shouldn't affect the game too much, hopefully.
Oh good. Maybe Orin will find that cute pair of human ears ^-^. (I WISH I could go to comiket, lol)
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(http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Science/Images/massive-nuclear-explosion.jpg)
I was targeted by a post restriction last night, which happens to be having to post nuclear explosions every post I make, as I get something about Utusho stuck in my head. So I'm sorry for any distractions. I don't know if the culprit was mafia or town, but probably the earlier, I think.
In any case...
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@Roukanken:
Firstly, I needed to explain as to why I wasn't on the bandwagon on Tenshi D1; since he posted new posts that I did not see beforehand.
Secondly, I hate a vote over Xan for D1; he did not answer Carthrat's question and instead pressed on with Tenshi, making his vote opportunistic. As you can see rather plainly, Jan-san was only lurking while Xan was both lurking and having this pinned upon him, so yes, misrep once again is horrible. Jan-san was out of the ballpark for all practical matters, and wasn't worth considering.
Thirdly, again, blatant misrep. Case on Xan disappeared because he was replaced, for one. Had to stand back and await more comments, and I didn't vote Nietz, making it consistent with the next point; after all, I didn't want to prop him too close to L-1. Nowhere in that post did I say that Nietz was the best lynch; I merely said that some of his actions were questionable, slightly more so than Zakeri. In short, questionable =/= surefiringly scummy.
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And to answer Sodium's question, I voted Alice because he simply hasn't posted throughout the day, and due to reasons like meta and such, I thought this was dangerous. Lack of opinions on D2 is more potentially scummy than the avid responses Nietz and Zakeri were giving. Thus, I didn't feel that Nietz was scummy enough to warrant a vote a vote over him. It would also take sometime for a modkill.
But Alice's last post is satisfactory, since he has labeled his thought processes clearly and such. While not posting anything very original, it's a good enough substitute for his absence for the rest of the day. If I were there, I would have voted Nietz.
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So yes, I do share Kiro's sentiment that this accusation is rather clumsy. However, while this line is weird, it's still an original case, which is more than can be said for people like Kerigis, who is fulfilling his reporter-style meta. There wasn't much opinion in his second post, more of hypotheticals and such about earlier-bandwagons than anything else. His vote today is important.
##Vote: Kerigis
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Okay, here's where I reach a point which classically I've always had a problem with - when my case is summarily taken apart piece by piece, what do I do? On one hand maintaining the attack is at best tunnelling and at worst plain personal attack, but on the other hand switching makes me look floaty and inconsistent, so really the best plan is probably just to never be wrong in the slightest.
This is seriously a point that basically gives me an aneurysm every time it comes up in a game, a real 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation. It probably doesn't help that right now it's 2am and I'm only semi-conscious.
So as bad as this makes me look, I'm going to have to ##Unvote. I suppose I was paranoid about Affinity given that just about nobody had talked about him for the entirety of the game, and from them on I was convinced he was scum until I got proven kind of wrong. -_-
Time to switch to the secondary suspect I should've put first. ##Vote Kerigis (L-2)
I need to stop trying so hard to look for enemies that aren't there. Sometimes blatant IIoA, actual lurking (looking here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=11) Kerigis was on after the phase change but never bothered to post) and replacing a massive lurker who threw iffy votes all over the place isn't too obvious to be a Mafioso. -_-
Still waiting on posts today from Kerigis, Alice and Zak, IIRC.
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Was the Alice wagon really viable when Sodium made that vote? The votes on Alice were pretty much just prods to show up and post something, and after he did, no one else seemed to find his post voteworthy.
I do believe it was viable, yes, largely for reasons Kiro laid out throughout the day and Affinity gave near the end. And, as other people stated, his saying Nietz was at the top of his scum list without throwing a vote down on the guy was odd. Rampant inactivity wasn't Alice's only crime.
Also, Zakeri had a single vote on him too, so me voting Zakeri would've had almost no effect.
If you want to say you thought the Nietz case was better, then okay, but don't try to hide behind this excuse. Unvoting Alice and voting Zakeri would have put Nietz/Alice/Zakeri at 3/2/2, which would not at all have been a foregone Nietz lynch conclusion.
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The Fourteenth "Give me a Song!" Vote Count
シンデレラケージ ～ Kagome-Kagome (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8seVVMpfVHs)
Roukanken (1): Kiro
Affinity (0)
Suwako Moriya (0)
EX Na2O2 (1): Suwako Moriya
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (0)
Kerigis (3): Serpentarius, Affinity, Roukanken
Not Voting (4): Alice, Kerigis, Zakeri, EX Na2O2
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline is in 56 hours at 1:00 PM EST on Sunday, August 16.
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Cool zeroes, bro.
Tewiflipavi.png
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Aaaaaand Kerigis, Zakeri, and Alice still haven't posted. This doesn't help Kerigis' and Alice's situation at all.
Another reason I choose to vote Nietz was that Alice had shown he could make a quality post, compared to Nietz, who wasn't playing all that well. I thought that Alice could deliver in Day 3.
Roukan: That post didn't really need the AtE. Otherwise, I don't see what's wrong with switching. You gave an original case, and then it was shot down relatively quickly, so then there's not point in staying there, right? It's situational, really, whether or not dropping a case is bad or just the most realistic thing to do, and in your case, I think it'd be the most realistic thing to do.
So anyways, I would vote Kerigis for not existing, giving IIoA, generally not doing anything useful, and because Jan-san was oh so jumpy with his vote, but that would put him at L-1, and it's way too early in the game for that. Alice has still not posted, when I was hoping he would deliver more on Day 3. Serp is weird in that all he did when he posted was answer something for me, and vote Kerigis w/a case. The post was relatively good for its size, but it wasn't a whole lot of content.
Summary: I'd vote Kerigis, but he's already at L-2, and it's only about 1/4 or 1/3 into the Day, so I'll prod Alice again. If he's not going to post at all during the beginning or middle of a Day, he's relatively useless to town.
##Vote:Alice
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Can't help but feel Sodium's prod on Alice again is once again useless vote movement.
I took off my Alice vote because he finally posted something of worth. I also didn't really find anything disagreeable, minus the whole "Nietz is not my first vote target" and then putting Nietz first in his suspicions list.
My ONLY point in voting Alice was because he was lurker supreme(well, that and Kerigis, but I disgress), and so I voted to prod. Alice then posted, and because I didn't like Nietz's or anyone else's case on Alice afterwords, I had no reason to vote Alice.
Another reason I choose to vote Nietz was that Alice had shown he could make a quality post, compared to Nietz, who wasn't playing all that well. I thought that Alice could deliver in Day 3.
middle of post #270
Summary: I'd vote Kerigis, but he's already at L-2, and it's only about 1/4 or 1/3 into the Day, so I'll prod Alice again. If he's not going to post at all during the beginning or middle of a Day, he's relatively useless to town.
##Vote:Alice
Repeat yourself much? And Alice is all fine and dandy at the end of Day 2 and now you're going to prod him again? If you think Kerigis is scummy but not safe to vote right now and Alice isn't scummy, then vote for someone else other than these 2. It's not like there's only one scum left.
Furthermore, you were able to post 3 times including the very first post of Day 3, but didn't choose to vote and NOW you decide that you would vote Kerigis after all, but won't because he'd be at L-1? Real convenient... and it's not like Kerigis popped in to post in the meanwhile.
Your explanation to Roukan is giving me a weird vibe, like you're being conciliatory. It's everyone's own opinion to decide whether Rou's switch was bad or not, but you should have no reason to prop him up. You also don't have an opinion on his case on Affinity. What did you think about the points on Affinity? I saw a token statement about Affinity voting Alice at the end of Day 2 in your #255, but you don't mention Affinity again even after Affinity responded to you. I think the Sodium case got a whole lot stronger so I'm going to switch it up.
##Unvote Roukanken
##Vote EX Na2O2
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The Fifteenth "Boosh!" Vote Count
Solar Sect of Mystic Wisdom ~Shall We Fuse?~ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjxKp6LfMsY)
I'd like to know you all need to post moar
Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Suwako Moriya (0)
EX Na2O2 (2): Suwako Moriya, Kiro
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (1): EX Na2O2,
Kerigis (3): Serpentarius, Affinity, Roukanken
Not Voting (3): Alice, Kerigis, Zakeri
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch
Kerigis, L-2, etc.
Deadline is in 27.5 hours at 1:00 PM EST on Sunday, August 16.
EDIT: This is from 9:30 AM August 15.
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OOT: Whoever invented/targeted Affinity, good job, I'm saving those :D
Anyways, my view of things:
The tiptoeing around the 2 lynches is also not a scumtell. And the disregarding of Kerigis-san is presuming that he could be Scum and should be noted. Now, let's do a quick comparison. I avoided both lynches as well and stated that I think Jan-san/Kerigis is probably Town. Objectively, doesn't that make me worse than him? And you don't mention or vote me at all.
This makes me feel that you're using me as a shield. Dangerous play blah blah aside, why are you trying to expose yourself like that, even though, you aren't sure about my alignment, despite you think I am probably scum and... town?
And the explicitly mentioning 'Hey guys this is why I wasn't on the Tenshi wagon' felt sort of pointless.
Care explaining this one? I couldn't possibly be on the Tenshi wagon because, well... I wasn't here at all.
I do believe it was viable, yes, largely for reasons Kiro laid out throughout the day and Affinity gave near the end. And, as other people stated, his saying Nietz was at the top of his scum list without throwing a vote down on the guy was odd. Rampant inactivity wasn't Alice's only crime.
Care pointing what was Alice's crimes as well? Because, really, pretty much all the votes I've seen against him were only massive prods all around, without anyone holding to a single cause.
##Vote: Suwako Moriya Until I see a response.
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The big one against Alice was this:
Onwards to other cases. Regarding Alice: I noticed you vote Jan-san in #71 for the standard reasons. But what I think stands out to me the most is your #87 when you question what Tenshi was doing and make no comment about Jan-san's post above yours including his unvote. For someone who was unhappy about Jan-san, you are suddenly quite single-minded in your pursuit of Tenshi. That single-mindedness gives me the impression of scummy intent, that you're just itching to vote Tenshi, but also don't want to jump on too quickly. And to reiterate my point from before, you justify your vote saying "nobody is this scummy, but I remembered about ras255" is rather selective thinking. But we were wrong about Nuclear Fusion last game and we're wrong about Tenshi this game. Your evidence there is faulty. I think you were trying too hard to look ok while voting Tenshi so I find your vote on his bandwagon the most telling. And then at the end, you just state you're going to go after Jan-san again. See below about why I'm wary of that.
In doing a proper re-read of Affinity Alice vote I realized he did use the lurking as part of his reason but it was in conjunction with having no unique opinions on Day 1.
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Care explaining this one? I couldn't possibly be on the Tenshi wagon because, well... I wasn't here at all.
Uh, this was a point on Affinity. :/
And I'll note that once again you've done absolutely zero scumhunting. All you done is vote someone based on a single point in their argument which you didn't see (which has since been pointed out), and there's been no comment from you on D2 or D3. I see no reason to move my vote.
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...So who do you think is scum? You were basically just telling people to "clarify this", and then you put a vote on Suwako for, well what Roukan said. Do you have any opinions on players? >_>
All this is directed at Kerigis.
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(http://lgo.mit.edu/blog/drewhill/files/nuclear-explosion.jpg)
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@ExNaO2:
Zakeri hasn't posted. Why choose Alice and center your the first three posts of today around him? Something tells me that you aren't putting the same amount of concnetration as a townie would.
Furthremore, yes, I agree with Kiro that your attitude towards Roukanken is rather concilatory and uneeded. There are some cases where switching votes is a scummy action, and the fact that you did not even make a passing comment on his case kinds of excabarates this weirdness about you.
Also, I would like you to respond to Kiro's questions too, instead of cheering the Kerigis bandwagon on.
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@Kerigis
As for Kerigis, we are past the stage of prods and pokes. Furthermore, you have not even shown why Suwako not pointing out Alice's other crimes is a scumtell either, and it seems to me that you are just parking your vote on Suwako for less than good reasons. While the first point on Kiro is a somewhat original and deservable of a reply, it lacks substance, I think.
Furthremore, why out of the three people you raised in your post, did you choose Suwako? It seems like randomizer.org to me.
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Sorry guys.
umm ... well, I finally got the Dissidia: Final Fantasy Demo a while back, so I spontaneously decided to download the Japanese version, because I couldn't wait two weeks.
Earlier today, I just defeated Chaos and unlocked a fun little minigame where you collect cards while fighting. It's a good way to level up your characters.
Oh yeah, and I'm dead tired right now, so would you all be nice and let me call v/la for the next 12 hours or so? Thanks.
actually, scratch that, I'll try to read up anyway, since it's really important to me to find something really scummy before lylo.
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But Alice's last post is satisfactory, since he has labeled his thought processes clearly and such. While not posting anything very original, it's a good enough substitute for his absence for the rest of the day. If I were there, I would have voted Nietz.
Mind explaining which parts you liked the most? I don't think being gone during the day and then not bringing anything new would be enough to win a vote off of you, unless you were of course Alice. :V
you aren't sure about my alignment, despite you think I am probably scum and... town?
I think thinking you're probably scum and town is a definate sign that he's not sure about your alignment.
not that many are at this stage in the game what with you replacing Xan and skipping out the rest of day 2.
And the explicitly mentioning 'Hey guys this is why I wasn't on the Tenshi wagon' felt sort of pointless.
Care explaining this one? I couldn't possibly be on the Tenshi wagon because, well... I wasn't here at all.
I think that's in reference to Affinity, who after Tenshi flipped said that he had reasons not to be on the Tenshi Bandwagon. This would be all kinds of scummy of Affinity had had a chance to post before Day one ended, but it still feels preemptive to explain why he wasn't feeling a bandwagon he didn't seem to have had the chance to decide if he wanted on or not.
So there were a lot of voting discrepancies on Alice, coupled with people letting him slide for a day on basically one post. Most of those discrepancies revolve around Kerigis, who has posted little since his replacement, and replaced in for Jan-san who's voting was slightly opportunistic. Then of course, We've got Sodium with his on again off again relationship with Alice. Finally, Alice has had little time to find to post.
Alice has a large enough case on him worth voting for in my opinion. One of Kerigis or Sodium would be his scum partners in this scenerio though. Most likely Keri.
That's just the feeling I get from reading these recent posts. Vote: Alice Margatroid Prepare to meet the hardest prod you've faced this game! In the meantime, I'm off to bed.
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Disclaimer: Nothing new really comes from this post: I answer questions, commentate and wait for answers/posts.
This makes me feel that you're using me as a shield. Dangerous play blah blah aside, why are you trying to expose yourself like that, even though, you aren't sure about my alignment, despite you think I am probably scum and... town?
The statement you quoted of mine was just putting things into perspective which I thought Rou didn't do very well. Rou's case on Affinity involved Affinity avoiding the mislynches and Jan-san/Kerigis. I've done the same and even said in Day 2 that I thought Jan-san felt Townie to me mostly based on gut. It's hardly exposing myself when it's in plain view in the first place. And I don't think that I'm using you as a shield if I happen to be the one indirectly defending you. Also, the fact that Rou was willing to drop his Affinity case on mine and Affinity's posts alone gives me more bad impressions than good impressions.
I suppose I was paranoid about Affinity given that just about nobody had talked about him for the entirety of the game, and from them on I was convinced he was scum until I got proven kind of wrong. -_-
Rou: I didn't prove or even "kinda prove" anything about Affinity or even come close to it. All I said was I thought your case sucked. Missed pointing that out earlier. Also, who else do you think is Scum other than Kerigis and why?
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Sodium should answer my questions from before. And who are your top 2 or 3 choices for Scum now and why?
Zakeri: Yes, I'm not sure of Jan/Kerigis' alignment, but he wasn't a top priority for me as a lynch target earlier and even in Day 3 with the vote on Suwako for a point that doesn't seem be correct or go anywhere, I don't think he takes priority over Sodium or Roukanken. While I don't really like you using the word "prod" for your vote on Alice as well, I do notice you putting forward actual accusations against Alice as opposed to Sodium's vote.
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Sodium's justifications of his actions hold water, but the actions themselves are sort of strange in the first place. Those actions will give us some really useful information when we have some flips to put them in context. Until then, I don't think he's worthy of my vote.
I'm irritated at Alice's lack of existence. If he only shows up at the end of each day to post analysis, waiting 'till after the day's events have played out and he can pick his stances accordingly, we can't allow that. Alice is certainly capable of making posts that look worthwhile, whatever his alignment. At this point it's not so much a question of how good his eventual post will look - it's a matter of him making it soon enough that we can infer some genuine opinions from it, and not just statements calculated to avoid suspicion.
As for Kerigis, though he heads his post claiming that it's going to contain his view of things, all I see are a couple of gripes with other people's points. One to cast suspicion on someone for comments relating to him, and another as an excuse to make a prod vote. No opinions on the other cases that are looking most likely to go through. Nothing to make me change my vote.
I realize that I'm in the position of a bandwagon swinger here, since whichever of these three I have my vote on will be leading in votes at the moment, but Kerigis still tops my list of preferred lynches. If Alice doesn't post soon, that will bump him ahead regardless.
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The reason Alice hasn't been prodded is that Pesco assured me he'd post after his exams. I will be discussing his lack of postage with pesco as soon as I can
Am I in trouble for something?
-
Yyyyyyyyyyyeah so I'm off to write my final one now.
I sure wasn't giving you leave to finish all your exams and then post.
-
Late Post due to C76 Hype. (Also, UFO music is too good)
Really? I was rather underwhelmed. Well, maybe Dobu Usagi can make it cool
Kerigis is top for...well, I'll just quote from my previous post.
not existing, giving IIoA, generally not doing anything useful, and because Jan-san was oh so jumpy with his vote
And he still hasn't posted after his "Hai, I'ma poke three people and then vote Suwako for 1 thing that was basically me not seeing/reading a post".
Alice is second(now third, maybe) because he isn't posting, although he now has a legitimate reason why is was away. The reason why I voted Alice was because I don't want Alice to end up not posting for the whole day, then have some really late post at the very end, like in Day 2.
Roukan is third(now second, maybe) because of the way he dropped his Affinity case, instead of his actual dropping of it. He basically used a single post to say "SWITCHING IS REALLY HARD, FALSE DILEMMA("Either you keep attacking, or drop it" aren't the only two things you can do), AtE AtE, UNVOTE, VOTE KERIGIS". I didn't think much of his case on Affinity though. I didn't think much of his case at the time, as it was original, but I didn't really think much of it.
Keeping vote until Alice posts.
If I missed any questions, tell me.
Roukan: Don't change your display name in the middle of a game. Or at least, not so much that it's somewhat hard to recognize.
Yes, I agree on that. Stick to a recognizable name or else I modkill/remove your posts because I don't know you
Rou changed his name? I didn't notice. Maybe that's cause he NEEDS TO POST!
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I will quickly say in my defense that the reason I was so screwed up over switching votes was because refusing to do so last game as usual basically cost Town the game. Past experience left me screwed up a little. >_>
Rou: I didn't prove or even "kinda prove" anything about Affinity or even come close to it. All I said was I thought your case sucked.
Innocent Until Proven Guilty. If my reasons for suspecting Affinity don't make sense, and Affinity beat them down pretty consisely, then I have no reason to believe he's scum.
Also, who else do you think is Scum other than Kerigis and why?
This is a difficult one to call. Alice did insist 'I'll be active from D3 onwards' and proceeded to not post, but GM insistence means that isn't a valid reason to accuse him.
There's the fact that you're still alive, but that's a horrible point running on meta and WIFOM.
I'll be honest - I can't think of valid reasons to suspect anyone other than Kerigis at the moment. Affinity was my other big fear, but since that case got taken down pretty quickly...
("Either you keep attacking, or drop it" aren't the only two things you can do)
This is going to sound really stupid, but what's the third option here? All I can see is 'leave your vote on him without bothering to improve your case which has already been refuted', which I hope isn't meant to be this valid other point.
On a side note, I don't understand how you can tell me encourage me on my decision in one post and then reprimand me for being confused about it in the next.
Alice gets a free pass from GM-confirmation for now. D4 he's still worth looking over.
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I said that I had really no problem with your actual dropping of the case, but rather, how you did it(the post you did it in). The fact you dropped it when it wasn't going anywhere is a null tell, imo.
Also, I was a little vague there. I meant "Either you keep attacking or drop it COMPLETELY". You could've switched targets, but still kept an eye on Affinity, instead of "OKAY, I AM TOTALLY WRONG. I'LL SWITCH NOW, BUT HERE'S SOME QUALITY "WHY SWITCHING IS HARD" WITH SOME AtE".
Now, if you dropped the case without having it proven false, then that would be scummy.
Also, where's the Frog Goddess?
inb4TH12.3answer
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I haven't said much because I haven't needed to (plus I was on C76Watch last night). Kiro has done more to make me feel sure about my vote on you than you have done to dissuade me and I think Kerigis' post where he voted me speaks for itself. Alice rounds out my list of probably scummies, half because of what he has and hasn't done and half because I think Sodium/Alice is a very real possibility.
Kiro and Serpentarius have given me basically no reason to think they're scum. I am also fairly positive Roukanken is town and I believe actively trying to hold his switch against him isn't a good path to follow since there are times where one simply gets convinced they're wrong. His cases throughout the game have come off to me as well-intentioned, even if they may have been mistaken at times.
I'm neutral-leaning-town on Zakeri and Affinity. If I had to pick one that's more likely town it'd...probably be Zakeri because of Affinity's long absence on Day 2 and that inconsistency Roukanken pointed out.
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@Mods:Votecount? Also:
##Extension
I'm sure we need one. Deadline is 4 hours away from my count. Not sure if there will be enough people here to get it though...
I'll get to it in a moment
Deadline is in about 3 hours 15 minutes. I'll post the votecount as I have one ready after I find a youtube link
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The Sixteenth "Immortal" Vote Count
Eternal Nocturne (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_6mN0iYQuA)
Extension votes: EX Na2O2
Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Suwako Moriya (1): Kerigis,
EX Na2O2 (2): Suwako Moriya, Kiro
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (2): EX Na2O2, Zakeri
Kerigis (3): Serpentarius, Affinity, Roukanken
Not Voting (1): Alice
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch
Kerigis is at L-2
Deadline is in 3ish hours at 1:00 PM EST on Sunday, August 16.
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#Extension
(http://www.maniacworld.com/Tsar-Nuclear-Explosion.jpg)
@Zakeri:
First up, Alice commented on almost everyone in the game with that post, and all the major cases. There were clear stances on Nietz, Zakeri and such; the justification for Xan/Sodium was a little weak and based on meta, but in any case, it was fair, which is more than can be said for... say, even me or Kerigis. And also, I voted him on the premise of lack of opinions at that time; while his posts in D1 were good, they weren't very original and so I was quite unsure. At that time, Kerigis and Sodiun just entered as well, and I needed to give them chances to speak, making Alice the scummiest.
===
@Sodium:
First of all, there was a completely absurd turnaround on the Rou issue; he first cheers Rou for dropping the case against me here (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg59711#msg59711) while at the same time completely switching his opinion on the switch at a later post. Yes, you give AtE as the only reason for the sudden 180 in opinion, but how does AtE make him more or less scummy in this case? Also...
I didn't think much of his case on Affinity though. I didn't think much of his case at the time, as it was original, but I didn't really think much of it.
... is stammering the same thing in three sentences and liable to being piled up open in real world mafia.
Furthermore, if you thought it was original you surely would have reasons for thinking that it was original. Lastly, your idea about 'keeping an eye on Affinity' is bad and seems to potray some laziness about the topic; no reference to the content at hand which is important to the discussion. If one is to... raise concerns and be refuted, then you have no reason to hold on to those concerns anymore; as Rou said, innocent until proven guilty.
Also, as I said, why did you vote Alice instead of Zakeri, who was absent the entire day too at the time of your vote?
All the above questions and my gut seem to be siding against Sodium more than Kerigis at the moment; the earlier is beginning to take more substance, and I feel compelled to change my vote until he answers the suspciions. Also, Kiro's, about you dropping your line of accusation on me etc.
##Unvote
#3Vote: Sodium
I'm counting this vote. I mostly won't count if unvotes are missing. I'm not going to be a complete douchebag moderator about simple mistakes
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Zakeri wasn't absent all of Day 2, Alice was. I said that my Alice vote was so that an attempt to make Alice not miss the whole day(like in Day2), but that failed because he had a real life reason.
DEEEEEEEEEEERP on my part. (that quote)
Roukan was obviously worried of people attacking him for dropping his case on you, so he made that post in an attempt to make it "not as bad"(although I didn't find it that bad). The fact he tried to make it "not as bad" by using "WHAT ELSE CAN I DO?", AtE and other things along those lines, makes me think he's trying to avoid getting anything against him.
My vote is still currently on Alice because he's apparently done his exams now, so we should've gotten a post by now but we haven't. He has posted little to nothing in Day 2&3 now... along with Kerigis actually. =V
##Unvote
##Vote Kerigis for doing all the "not existing" Alice did, and various other points.
PS: You messed up the vote format in your post, Affinity. =V
PPS:Probably won't be here for deadline if the deadline ends up being 1pm EST, which hopefully it won't be.
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##Extention crap, I didn't realize it was getting that late.
Affinity: I've read through Alice's Post recently, and I don't really see how his 225 completely resolves the fact that he's been gone for most of day 2, much less ALL of day three. Yes, he posted Solid opinions on many of the major cases, but if we reduce the likelyhood of someone being scum just to "The number of opinions they give us" rather than evaluating them, we're likely to be heading straight for a wall like we did with Neitz.
I agree Kerigis is scummy enough to vote, but a major source of that for me is what looks like poorly disguised Bussing attempt from Alice, who was so overtaken by the mislynchability of Tenshi that he completely forgot he had a vote on Jan-san until the end of the day. This, plus Alice seems to be distancing himself from the Neitz lynch. He says Neitz isn't his first vote, then fits Neitz as his first choice, then doesn't vote. Later, once his meta-scum argument gets knocked down like a light warrior in his first boss battle, he posts that he would prefer to lynch me. I would have liked to hear more from him about why he though I was worth lynching then, but we haven't had a post since. Or rather, I'd like to hear anything really. I'm not that picky.
We should be getting out of the stage where we are voting people based on the last time they've recently posted, and since only three people have noticed the deadline warning so far, it's worrying.
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##Extension
Just need one more person to extend. Reading the latest posts now.
-
You have four for an extension and a tie. You also have 6 minutes. Good luck?
Extension: Affinity, Zakeri, Kiro, Sodium
EX Na2O2 (3): Suwako Moriya, Kiro, Affinity
Kerigis (3): Serpentarius, Roukanken, EX Na2O2
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Well, it's a comparison between Sodium and Kerigis. Case on Sodium still stands. I think he has active scumminess against him. Kerigis is inactive and it's really hard to gauge him, but I'm going to try to make a deal.
I roleclaim ZUN, Townie Drunken Original Artist. I'm a delayed Cop. On Night 1, all I could do was Drink. I got really drunk and threw up in my trunk. But I got the Investigate ability by Day 2. I investigated Alice in Night 2 and my result was that Alice is innocent. I'll make a deal and investigate Kerigis Night 3. Also, this roleclaim should give Scum a little WIFOM in terms of how to respond to me.
This roleclaim is in hopes that we see a Sodium lynch today who has more hard evidence against him of scumminess. Flightiness of activity is only so telling so I hope the Cop investigation will go through and we'll get something in regards to Kerigis.
Zakeri or whoever, please vote Sodium.
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DEADLINE! SHUT UP!
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The Seventeenth "End of Day 3" Vote Count
tod und feuer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToeTr1gDEOg)
Roukanken (0)
Affinity (0)
Suwako Moriya (1): Kerigis
EX Na2O2 (3): Suwako Moriya, Kiro, Affinity
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (2): Zakeri
Kerigis (3): Serpentarius, Roukanken, EX Na2O2
Not Voting (1): Alice
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch
Keri and Sodium are at L-3
Deadline is NOW! And we have a tie. Thusly, the haiku rules are in play! Please wait warmly while I post them
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As the group reaches the end of the day, and the dealers room is about to close...and the group is evenly split on deciding who stole ZUN's score! Exasperated, I suggest a competition to determine who survives, the loser dying in a hail of spirited exploding danmaku! I suggest a competition of haiku, but not just any haiku...but amusing haiku! After all, any hellcat enjoys a good laugh...
Mechanics of the haiku off
1. Haiku is a form of poetry that relies on number of syllables. It is in the format of one line with 5 syllables, one line with 7 syllables, and a final line of 5 syllables. Examples will be provided.
2. The tied players should only submit one haiku. Make sure it's the best you have
3. The tied players have 24 hours to submit a haiku.
4. The haiku should be submitted by PM, though it will be presented in the official judging post.
5. Most amusing haiku wins.
6. The winner survives.
7. Scum may not PM their partners for help with the haiku, nor may town communicate for any reason.
8. If I forgot something, I'll add it in.
9. Good Luck
10. Posting in thread is allowed, but nothing game related and also, all haiku suggested IN thread will be automatic losses if they are used.
Examples of haiku, as a meta haiku:
Meta haiku
Excuse my rudeness
But this thread, I noticed it
And wish to partake
Though this thread is old
three months old, to be precise
Haiku will not die
An art, lasting long
In the earliest of times
indeed has tendrils
Most assuredly
as a venerable art
haiku are lovely
But, I do wonder
With format 5-7-5
Can one meta haiku?
-break-
An epic haiku
is mostly impossible
so a new art forms
A step up, one goes
forming some odd thing beyond
a normal haiku
A meta haiku...
about multiple haiku
In haiku format
Some may haiku of
the many changing seasons
Or other natures
But this haiku, this
this tells of the art itself
With exponent glee
One argues, perhaps
that one can't say much at all
about the haiku
Perhaps even saying
that one cannot make nineteen
about the subject
-break-
However, you see
I only have to write four
to complete this task
Closing it is hard
But a good story resolves
even one of haiku
The end, dramatic
Whether good, bad, or neither
approaches quickly
This haiku, filler
For tension will raise a lot
with protracted end
I must finish now
But I hope you all enjoyed
Cause everyone dies.
~FIN~
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You should send haiku to this account, btw
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So, hey, I have both submissions.
And I'm half a mind to have you both kill each other.
SERIOUSLY? Is that the BEST you could do? Well, I'm going to have to confer with pesco later tonight to determine if either one is worth the 5 seconds it took to read.
I mean, seriously, these are the worst I have ever seen in a haiku off ever. They are bad and you should FEEL bad. I'm not even allowing resubmission.
That is all
-
Oh dear...
-
Mods are in distress
Haikus are inadequate
Will you flip a coin?
-
Utusho is bang
And that bang is boom, therefore
Utusho is boom.
-
Looked at the submissions in Unesco's inbox and yeah...
SDFGHKSJHSHIOTBLSJPGS
-
Haiku is Easy.
But it did not occur to
me; thinking is not.
-
Are we allowed to look at them?
-
Haiku are subpar?
Then post them both in public
So that we may laugh.
-
They'll be made public once we decide who to punish.
-
Thinking this all through,
If both of them are scummy
This might help us more.
No game related posts in this phase please
-
Pesco needs to get online so we can have a conference of sorts
-
This is annoying.
We've been waiting for a while.
Hurry the fuck up.
Then get pesco online
Just got home. I'm not happy about getting home so late either.
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Decision made. They both are frying. The haiku in question, btw:
Chen wanted to eat
So she went to Yukari
Yukari ate Chen
Let's do this again:
Nya nya nya nya nya nya nya
Nya nya haiku nya.
I'll write up flavor and flips in a minute. These haiku are bad and you should FEEL bad, Keri and Sodium.
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I must disagree.
What's wrong with the second one?
I saw it and laughed.
A b c d e
F g h i j k l
M n o p q
Rule 1. I conferred with my comod so it wasn't unilateral either. Both of them are either a disgrace to humor or haiku. I'm sure there will be complaints. But hey, I can't please everyone.
-
As I read the haiku the color drains from my face and my ears droop.
Me:What
The
Fuck
Is
This!?
Did...did you all seriously think anyone would forgive your mangling of the art like this? These aren't funny. These aren't clever. These SUCK! No seriously, look everyone!
/me passes around the haiku, and gives a deadly grin as everyone's faces match hers.
In a fit of rage, I turn to Keri and Sodium.
Me: You both...are DEAD for this. The group shouldn't mind given their votes and the looks on their face...
/me starts shooting tons of explody spirits at Keri and Sodium, finally blowing them to fine particles.
Fortunately, the soul remains and I scan the souls.
Me: Ok...I feel a lot better now. Also, you'll be intrigued by this one...
Kerigis, Lyrica Prismriver, Keyboardist Townie Neighbor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9wHYiicY5), has been burnt to a crisp D3 for bad haiku
Sodium, Innocent Key, Mafia Goon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPilJCvwKok), has been burnt to a crisp D3 for bad haiku
So, with that, it's N3. Night actions in 24-48 hours. Send em to Unesco
-
Nyoro~n.
-
No Bah! posts damnit!
-
Another day in the dealers room begins at Comiket...wow, this has been a really long comiket...maybe Sakuya's been screwing around again? AH well! From what I can tell it would seem that only 4 of you made it back? Oh wow, this can't be good...
And I can't seem to find ZUN anywhere again...I hope he's not getting dru-
OH there he is! And he's carrying another artist with him. Guess they had an awesome party. Well, at least 6 of us are here...I'll see if I can find the 7th. I can understand wanting to sleep in to try to forget those haiku from yesterday
*a look of disgust passes over my face breifly*
So...let's see...ewww...this is pretty messed up...I mean, this body is TOTALLED. Even the soul is messed up a little. This guy had a number done on him...Poor Roukanken...who was actually:
Roukanken, Lunasa Prismriver, Violinist Townie Neighbor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9wHYiicY5I) - Beaten to death and murdered on the high Cs N3
Well...it's just the six of you...ZUN, do you have anything to say
ZUN: That Sodium bastard got what he deserved. Innocent Key sucks anyway...trying to pervert Sakuya like that...of course THEY'D be one of the ones trying to steal my music!
Me: Well...I see you certainly agree with how they went
ZUN: Oh, well, that haiku (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CoolAndUnusualPunishment) was the last straw. NO ONE could forgive them for that!
Me: What about Lunasa?
ZUN: I didn't know that figments of my imagination could even be playing...I think that I should probably consider quitting the drinking (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StealthCigaretteCommercial) if this keeps up...
Me: Nyaa~ You'd never do that
ZUN: Yeah...true.
And with that, we start Day 4!
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The Eighteenth "Start of Day 4" Vote Count
幽雅に咲かせ、墨染の桜 ～ Border of Life (MAKINA MIX) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzMrPvbbPCM&feature=PlayList&p=E6C0F667000C55A3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=8)
Affinity (0)
Suwako Moriya (0)
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (0)
Alice (0)
Not Voting (6): Alice, Serpentarius, Suwako Moriya, Kiro, Affinity, Zakeri
With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is in 72 hours at 9:00 PM EST on Friday, August 21st.
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Sup Zun? How was the party?
quick reread shows to me that Serp and Suwako have said more about Jan-san than Affinity. Right now that's where I'm leaning, but I'd rather wait until Kiro says something.
Also, Everyone needs to post more. Seriously, there's almost nothing to see day three.
nyeh, bad timing due to Comiket. Ah well ^-^
-
excuses excuses.
I'm heading to bed for now, since I don't think anyone's going to notice this thread for a little while.
-
Time to read back and look for Sodium connections.
Pre-reread suspicion order would go Affinity > Zakeri > Serpentarius > Kiro. I have no idea where to put Alice because my head says "Kiro claimed him town" while my heart says "Godmother!"
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Oh, by the way, if you expect me to tell you when it's lylo...I'm not going to. I bring this up because I was asked in PM about it. Sorry. If you don't like it, Rule
34 1
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After a quick reread, I'm leaning towards Serp on the account of him being shady on D3 and sort of avoiding the Sodium wagon for questionable reasons as well as parking his vote on Kerigis. For example...
Sodium's justifications of his actions hold water, but the actions themselves are sort of strange in the first place. Those actions will give us some really useful information when we have some flips to put them in context. Until then, I don't think he's worthy of my vote.
this in itself needs justification. While Zakeri didn't exactly comment much on Zakeri D3 either, he had a more original case on Alice, which had more reasons to it. Still not sure about Alice; there is always the chance that Kiro is an insane cop after all, and I would like results for last night.
-
----------
...Oh, Bugger. A WoT...
----------
Alright, let's start off with saying that I got a post condition placed on me in that I have to post a relevant TvTropes link in every post. Well, it could be worse. (I could have gotten a word count restriction). (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TemptingFate)
First off, Mod: are we in LYLO? With your lack of role descriptions, I'd rather not be left in the dark about this either. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoorCommunicationKills)
EDIT: Never fucking mind.
Let's cut to the chase. I investigated Serpentarius and found him Guilty. So let's break down what this might mean. If I'm sane, then Serp is Scum and Alice is either innocent or a Godmother. If I'm Insane, then it's the opposite. I could also have been hit by a bus driver or my target hit by a Framer, but at the moment, we have not heard of any incidents of such.
If we get confirmation that we are not in LYLO, that means there is only 1 Scum left and possibly 1 Survivor. That would mean both Serp and Alice can't be Scum AND it gives us the opportunity to lynch one and if we find out it was incorrect, we can almost confirmingly lynch the other. The only hesitation would be if we lynched Serp and he's a Survivor rather than Scum. The mod could not confirm what would happen if I investigated a Survivor.
Also, since there would be only one Scum left, I don't see how that Scum would be able to use his ability AND send in an NK unless UKari is fooling around again. And I don't see why any of the Townies would want to mess with my investigation in a weird way like that. Also, if the last Scum is a Godmother, I doubt they would worry about the Cop investigation as much. The fact that I got opposing results (and unless I was preemptively targeted for a bus/frame in Night 2 or Scum can use their ability and NK in Night 3), suggests something is amiss between these 2.
---
So let me examine why Serp could be Scum independently from my result. The weird early vote on Alice doesn't mean much in the long run. But during the height of the Tenshi train, there's the vote for Tenshi #115 for "being the safest lynch from a game theory perspective", then vote for Jan-san in #121 for wondering why that wagon disappeared and Tenshi's shot up, and yet he revotes Tenshi in #139 for the heck of it even if it was more or less foregone. None of those are glaringly scummy, but the switching it up leaves much to be desired.
Serp does vote Xan start of Day 2. He also mentions talk about how Jan of either alignment would vote him which in the end is just speculation. And now that I think about it, you're starting to reach with that statement at the end of your #207 and in the middle of your #214. Then after Sodium shifts the wagon from Alice to Nietz, Serp solidifies the Nietz wagon by bringing him to L-1 and it's pretty much sealed even if Nietz had already mentioned he was giving up.
As for Day 3, Sodium had posted twice without voting and Serp doesn't really address Sodium's lack of putting a case forward and just proceeds straight to Jan-san/Kerigis. I found that a bit odd. His reply about Sodium in #281 is pretty much sitting on the fence. And then we don't hear from him anymore. All in all, there just seems to be something lacking with Serp and I had him pegged as the 3rd scum behind Roukan, but investigated him over Roukan because he'd be harder to pin down with evidence as it kinda shows above.
---
If we are in LYLO though and Serp flips Scum, we can't automatically clear Alice because the Godmother aspect could remain. Sodium "did" swing the vote away from Alice to Nietz in Day 2. But I've been looking over some things and here's what I found.
1) Sodium also prodded Alice again in Day 3 and at that point, there was no guarantee that an Alice lynch could have surfaced again by then. It's really all dependent on if Scum Sodium felt reasonably confident the Kerigis wagon would stick and he'd throw his vote in a convenient placeholder spot. The question is whether he'd be brave enough to put it on a fellow scumbuddy or not and I'd use slight meta and bank on him not doing so. See also #3.
2) I guess another implication that suggests Alice is actually innocent is that I didn't die. If Alice were a Scum Godmother with one other buddy remaining, they could just chance eliminating me and let the weight of my sole investigation carry them through to the end. In other words, it might be riskier leaving me alive because I would get another result or 2 that would lead to multiple Town investigations that could lead to a LYLO where everyone alive was confirmed Town by me, thus eliminating the Godmother advantage. Or I could get a Scum investigation as well.
3) FINALLY, in Sodium's #284, his top 3 choices for Scum are Kerigis, then Alice, then Roukan. Since we know #1 and #3 are both Town, I am willing to bet that Sodium was not savvy enough to bus Alice in such a case (and I hadn't revealed my roleclaim yet) and that this indirectly clears Alice.
---
I'm reasonably sure Affinity is clear because his tying vote helped secure that double kill in Day 3 rather than the mislynch of Kerigis which he was on for the first half of Day 3 and could have just stayed there because Kerigis was inactive. It would be way too risky for a Scum Affinity to switch to Scumbuddy Sodium and have those 2 wagons tied with someone else potentially voting Sodium in the last minute or Sodium losing the haiku-off. Also, he was constantly questioning Sodium through Day 3 so his intent to eventually vote Sodium seems to be there; I had the impression Affinity would switch. Also, he is leaning Serp Day 4 for what I think are good reasons before this post is out. Overall reasoning through the game looking solid.
Suwako is also somewhat clear just because it was announced he was attacked and there was no counter claim to that. I find it less likely Scum would block a kill onto themselves like what Alice did in GWU, but it's always distinctly possible. Plus he was the first one on Sodium right at the start of Day 3 and even if I don't agree with his preference of targets today, he has more or less looked steady to me since the middle of Day 2.
Zakeri is distinctly possible as Scum because he was around during Day 3 deadline (his last post was 1.5 hours before deadline), but didn't switch his vote to anyone at the end. Not having an opinion and or the guts to decide who was scummier between Sodium or Kerigis is bad. It's starting to reek of someone who didn't want to hammer his scumbuddy or hammer what would have been the mislynch. Given the haiku rules, I could see a Scum Zakeri just feigning indifference and leave it up to fate without having a personal stake in the outcome. A Town Zakeri with a solid reasoning of his case should not have to fear making the wrong choice in this case, especially since it wasn't LYLO. And then you factor in my case from back in Day 2 and I can be convinced he's more likely to be Scum than Affinity or Suwako.
Alice needs to post. It's a shame I'm using my investigation and how I'm reading Sodium's replies as a method for clearing Alice rather than anything Alice has said himself.
Finally, if there are 3 Scum in a 12 player game, I would "hope" that the Cop would be sane because an Insane cop needs one incorrect mislynch or Night flip to determine that sanity which is an increase in Town error that needs to occur and puts pressure on the Cop if he got it wrong. And he would be more likely to get it wrong first because an Insane Cop gets more guilty results than innocent results. If there are only 2 Scum, I could see the Cop being insane, but at this junction in time, we are able to afford that one mislynch to make certain. From our numbers perspective now and the points I made about Serp and Alice, I'd rather bank on me being Sane than Insane and that means Serp is a dead lock for Scum at least. If the game doesn't end, I'd peg Zakeri as the last Scum (although Alice REALLY needs to get his ass into this game so I can make sure of my above theories).
##Vote Serpentarius
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Pausing my re-read and collection of Xan interactions to note Kiro's post.
Serpentarius's 241 started making me question my pre-reread opinion of him (further detail will be provided in upcoming large news report with opinions derived therefrom attached) and this new claim is certainly very strong, but I'd like to hear from him before voting.
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EBWOP: That should be "Xan/Sodium interactions".
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EBWOP 2: who the fuck gave me this sig
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Okay, report can be found here (http://pastebin.com/m230114e9). I didn't feel like posting it here because we already have one WoT and no one wants to scroll that much.
This report contains a summary of all posts made by Xan/Sodium and all posts made by players still alive (except for myself since I don't need a summation of myself to conclude anything about me) that reference Xan/Sodium in anything more than a trivial way. Conclusions are as follows:
- Kiro comes out of this smelling like roses (as if he needed help improving his standing in my eyes). He was the major detractor from Sodium yesterday and pressed and pressed and pressed until the deadline hit. His slight Day 2 oddities are easily forgiven. Also, irrelevant to the Sodium study, but uncontested copclaim.
- Reading through Affinity's timeline, I felt like he may have been bussing his scumbuddy, but (as Kiro pointed out) the swingvote at the end of Day 3 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg61836#msg61836) speaks volumes. He gets bumped down my list.
- Alice's lone comment about Xan (yes, it's the wrong post, scroll up) (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg57867#msg57867) is non-commital. Between this and his general lack of existence, Kiro's town return on him is really the only thing keeping my vote off of him right now.
- I'm curious about Zakeri's 166 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg55742#msg55742), where he appeared to threaten Xan with a daykill. What little exists after that is pretty dodgy, and his 292 in particular is a very loud silence (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg61876#msg61876). I could easily see a Sodium/Zakeri pair.
- Serpentarius' 241 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg58078#msg58078) boggles my mind. If you didn't think Xan was scummy, why did he necessitate a prod vote? I also disagree with the idea that Sodium was scumhunting; he was asking a boatload of questions but getting an actual opinion from him was like pulling teeth. Like Zakeri, what little exists after that is pretty dodgy, and his ignoring of Kiro's case combined with a feeble question pushed at mine in his 263 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1398.msg59297#msg59297) does not make me a happy frog goddess.
I want to hear from Serpentarius regarding Kiro's claim and I want to hear from both Serpentarius and Alice about why I should vote for the other one because I honestly can't decide which of you looks worse. (For the record, I disagree with Kiro's assessment about the Sodium/Alice interaction in 284 - I would actually be slightly MORE inclined to think Alice is scum based on Roukanken and Kerigis flipping town due to the potential for distancing tactics. At best it's a null tell either way.) Zakeri is a solid third, Affinity is a distant fourth and it would take otherworldly intervention for me to vote Kiro.
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Oh boy, here we go. Much setup speculation follows.
Alright, roleclaim time. I'm Merlin Prismriver, Trumpeteer Survivor Neighbor, and I stole ZUN's music. My only ambition is to adapt ZUN's score into a bestselling album and retire on the proceeds. The mafia are actually stooges set up by the music industry. I'm the one you all are actually after, but I'm not killing you, so take from that what you will.
I speculate that Kiro is a naive-cop-with-one-exception, due to the flavor of this game. ZUN's looking for the one who stole his music, and that's me. If that's the case, then when you lynch me today and get an innocent result from Zakeri tomorrow night, you're going to have a really nasty dilemma on your hands. So, Kiro, since you seem to like making deals so much, let me propose this to you.
If I'm correct in my setup speculation, the investigation of Alice means nothing at all. He could be either town or scum. If he's scum, then lynching him will mean a win for me and all of you (as I also doubt that Kitten would make three scum versus a useless cop). That'd be swell. If he's innocent, then I could be either right or wrong in my setup speculation. Kiro would presumably investigate Zakeri tomorrow night, and if I'm right, he'd get an innocent result, which would probably lead you all to lynch me and then lose the game. If I'm wrong and Kiro is actually a scum-plus-survivor detector, you'd have two guilty results, four people alive, and a game that's not over, which should lend credence to my story. Hopefully we'd agree on a Zakeri lynch and then we'd all win. That'd be just as swell.
Now, I'm well aware that with what you know, from a pure game theory perspective it's probably smarter for you all to mislynch me on the not inconsiderable chance that I'm making all this up, and then when my flip proved you all wrong, you'd then take your chances among Zakeri and Alice. But we're in the endgame now, and we've got posts to analyze. I think that Sodium's flip reflects worse on Alice and Zakeri both than it does on me.
For one thing, Alice's (lack of) play so far would be godfathertastic even if I didn't suspect that we have an effectively-naive cop, and I'm kind of irritated that Kiro played into it. Here's the sum of everything he's had to say about Xan and Sodium:
I basically hate, loathe and despise everything about Xan's play, but at the same time, the fact that Town-Xan ALSO works this way leaves me to be ultimately uncertain about his scumminess. Possible vote target, but again, I'd have to think about it a bit more.
He then places Sodium after Nietz and Zakeri but before Kerigis in his list of likely scum. This was the day before the one where Sodium was lynched, and he of course didn't have anything to say on Day 3, so it's pretty much all we have on him. It's about as wishy-washy as opinions get.
Meanwhile, Suwako hit all the relevant points on Zakeri's relations with Xan/Sodium. His 166 looks especially like he's frustrated at his scumbuddy's ineptitude - notice the harsh wording combined with the lack of a vote to back it up, and I really don't like the way that he declares Xan's play in its entirety as a nulltell (which is essentially what Alice did in that above quote) in 227. Finally, 279 uses the tried and true pseudobussing technique of saying "[Scumbuddy] and [Random Townie] look equivalent to me." I can't be the only one who this raises enormous red flags for, can I?
So, all of Zakeri's actions certainly make sense in the context of being Sodium's scumbuddy, and Alice looks like lurkerscum with a side helping of vagueness about the now-flipped scum. I'd prefer to lynch Alice right now, and if he flips town, go into tomorrow with a scan of Zakeri to hopefully vindicate me, but I'm admittedly a bit biased there, since if Alice is scum and Zakeri isn't, then I'll almost certainly be lynched tomorrow over the scanned-innocent guy. I'm voting Alice, but on the off chance that you all buy into my deal but think Zakeri is scummier, I'll vote him instead and pray that he's our scum.
##Vote Alice Margatroid
Now, because this post isn't long enough yet, some responses to what's already been posted:
As for Day 3, Sodium had posted twice without voting and Serp doesn't really address Sodium's lack of putting a case forward and just proceeds straight to Jan-san/Kerigis. I found that a bit odd. His reply about Sodium in #281 is pretty much sitting on the fence.
I blame this on the discussions that we three Prismrivers were having at night. I didn't speak much with Jan-san/Kerigis, but Roukanken and I went over who we thought was likely to be scum and we both figured that Kerigis was the most scummy during our N2 discussion. Roukanken wanted to prod Affinity first, and you all saw how that turned out. :V I know it's unverifiable private evidence and all, but the fact that I had already gone through the scumhunting steps once sort of threw me off when I had to re-present a case against other cases again.
Serpentarius' 241 boggles my mind. If you didn't think Xan was scummy, why did he necessitate a prod vote?
I think I explained my reasoning well enough in 165. Xan's D1 conduct didn't look bad to me at all. The prod vote was there purely due to his D2 failure. I kept it there 'till he was replaced, and then I didn't unvote and find a new case until Alice showed up and Sodium got rolling.
I also disagree with the idea that Sodium was scumhunting; he was asking a boatload of questions but getting an actual opinion from him was like pulling teeth.
When people ask questions, that's scumhunting. It's an attempt to find inconsistencies and get more information out there. His lack of stated solid opinions wasn't pro-town, but he was far from the worst in that regard. The fact that I was the last vote on him seems to mean that I wasn't the only one who thought so.
And on that note, I'd like to point out that I've held a solid stance on Xan and Sodium all game, which should be worth something. Granted, it was the wrong stance, but Alice and Zakeri never really committed either way, and I think that's worse.
So, there you go. That's my case for why you shouldn't lynch me. All that remains for all you townies is to decide whether it's a good strategy or not. One last thing, though: I fully expect Alice to be opposed to this proposed deal; if he's scum, then it'll be for the obvious reasons, and if he's town, then it'll be because he can expect a win if both Zakeri and I get lynched instead of him. I'm more curious about what Zakeri has to say about it. If you're town, Zakeri, then you have nothing to fear. If Alice is scum, then your faction will win by following my plan. If I'm scum, then Kiro's investigation of you tonight will turn up innocent and in all likelihood I'll be lynched tomorrow. If you're scum, though, then you'd better hope that my speculation about Kiro being a naive-cop-with-one-exception is correct, or else you'd better oppose this deal with everything you have so you can get Alice lynched in your place tomorrow. So, what's it going to be?
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I still think it's very unlikely that Serp is Scum together with Sodium due to his solid stance on Jan-san from later day one to middle of day two. I agree that both Alice and I look scummy from the standpoint. The most likely Answer is that Alice really is a godmother, which really wouldn't be that much of a stretch.
Here's the part where I would generally say something cliche like "It's time for the Finale~ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4oPZnTF9Dw)"
Good music choice ^-^
##Kill: Alice
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Well then. That makes me, uh, less suspect of Zakeri.
Waiting for the flip.
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Can't do it any other way on my phone.
Alice is Golden City Factory (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNBSpMN7rmA), Vanilla Townie
Vote count reset.
Story at 11
The loud sound of guitar feedback cracks through the air. Oh! it looks like someone is about to perform! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXO8i6u-B4k) Even ZUN calms down a little bit as we watch the show!
Entranced by the music, we hardly notice it when a body drops at around 4:19. When the song finally ends, we go back to our business...
and notice there are only five of you...
Me: Um...maybe I should go look for someone?
So, I do so. And I come upon a certain rabbit hunched over someone.
Me: Hey Tewi! Whatcha got there?
Tewi: Oh, someone died! Pretty cool huh? Wanna look?
Me: Sounds good! Who was it?
Tewi: Um...looks like Alice
Me: Alice Margatroid!?
Tewi: Um...kinda. I think he looks more like Golden City Factory than that puppeteer lady.
Me: Oh, ok. Well, I'll read the soul then...
...
Me: Yep, Golden City Factory. Well, looks like THEY didn't steal the music. So, I guess we better get back to the group
Tewi: Yep!
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##Vote: Serpentarius
I can't see anything else being possible right now.
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Nobody else vote yet. I need to check something and I want to get my word in.
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The Ninteenth "Key Change" Vote Count
Eternal Nocturne (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_6mN0iYQuA)
Affinity (0)
Suwako Moriya (0)
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (1): Suwako Moriya,
Not Voting (5): Serpentarius, Kiro, Affinity, Zakeri
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch
Deadline is in 56 hours at 9:00 PM EST on Friday, August 21st.
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Serp: Roundabout roleclaim is meh. Your theory on my sanity is huh? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MindScrew) But I have something I should clarify with you. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TomatoSurprise) I have mod confirmation that my only possible sanities are Sane and Insane. There's none of this Naive-with-one-exception BS to spout. With Alice's flip, I am confirmed Sane unless anyone else wants to come out and say they hit Alice with a Frame on Night 2. That also means you're Guilty unless the same supposed Framer then hit you on Night 3. And we're not going to pass this up on some chance you're a Survivor who flips guilty via game mechanics. You say you stole the score and I have a Guilty result on you; Town cannot let you go.
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I do intend to vote Serpentarius, but before I do, I think Affinity and Suwako should roleclaim. Something is off in regards to a possible scumbuddy now that Zakeri has shown he's a Vig and vigged the best target Town could have hoped for. We have an NK that didn't go through and we have forced post restrictions (nukes and TvTropes). Here's what we have so far for claims:
Kiro - Cop (looks to be Sane), *hit by TvTropes post restriction*
Serpentarius - Survivor with Mason chat with Kerigis and Roukan?
Zakeri - Vigilante
Affinity - Unknown. *hit by nuke post restriction*
Suwako - Unknown. *claims to have been an NK target, no one died Night 2*
In other words, who the hell is giving out post restrictions? It's not me, and it can't be Zakeri. It could be Serp, Suwako, or Affinity could have imposed it on himself (what for? I don't know). And how did someone not die on Night 2? It can't be due to me, Serp, or Zakeri. Scum must kill per my question earlier in the game, therefore it rules out that possibility. So either Affinity or Suwako are involved in this not dying business.
As you will notice, I intentionally did not put in a Tropes in #334. A bit about my post restriction. I am told by the mod that if I fail to get it in, I get 2 warnings with the 3rd offense resulting in my being banned from Comiket FOREVAR. What I'd like to check is if such warnings are made public or not by the mod. Because Affinity missed a Nuke for his Day 4 restriction. One explanation is that it expires after one Day, but that just doesn't seem to be as fun for the mods or in the spirit of a role madness game.
My sudden very dark suspicion is that Affinity is Scum, and is faking the post restriction and is trying to breeze under the radar to a Scum win by bussing both Sodium and Serp. Actions speak louder than words. Zakeri is a vigilante so there's no way he's also giving out post restrictions. No one died on Night 2 and Suwako claims he didn't get hit. Suwako's roleclaim is pretty key to determining how this happened. Affinity could have the post restriction, but there seems to be no effect to it or a roleblock type effect because I wouldn't have gotten a result on Night 3. In other words, it doesn't seem to hurt him ability wise. I was too quick to clear him on the idea that a Scum Affinity wouldn't bus all of his partners. Given we are in a LYLO situation most likely, he could.
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Roukanken wanted to prod Affinity first, and you all saw how that turned out. :V
orly??? Serp, any other comments about Affinity?
As for Zakeri, his comment leading up to the Vig is kinda weird and I'd like him to explain that more. I should point out that a Town or Scum Vig would probably have hit Alice either way since the Scum vig also knows Alice would be Town.
Depending on the roleclaims and responses, I am about ready to place Affinity above Zakeri as the last Scum. I do need to do a reread from scratch later and double check everyone left though (including Suwako in context of his roleclaim), but that's where my suspicions have shifted at the moment.
Suwako, I'm requesting you unvote Serpentarius for now. I won't hold it against you if you do and will consider that in spirit, you intended to vote Serpentarius for lynch today. I just feel like this suddenly is going to take more time to figure out and I don't want any incidents of scum quickhammering themselves at any opportunity.
I really don't recall this question. Because scum CAN choose no kill. They just have to actively choose it. If you can link to where I've said otherwise, I'd appreciate it
EDIT:Oh, you mean THIS:
Um...I think it's pretty self evident that ANY night action will be randomized. If it's done at night, and I get no direction, well, quite obviously it will be randomized
Um, you should have read that closer. I said if there was no direction. No kill is a direction. Sorry that wasn't clear but it didn't occur to me it might not be
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Fair enough. ##Unvote: Serpentarius
I am DJ Technetium, Townie TranceEndent. My music is so annoying that anyone who gets near me hears it and goes away out of irritation. Thus, I am Night-Action Immune - things that target me get to me and simply die before they work, regardless of benevolent or malevolent intent. This includes NKs, as Night 2 demonstrated.
It also presumably applies to the post restriction silliness floating around, which may offer a possible explanation as to why it didn't surface until Day 3. I don't know that for sure, though - if I was targeted for a post restriction I wasn't told.
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I'm with Suwako on voting Serp now, since it was either/or one of them for me. I felt Serp's claim of Survivor out of it, but it had some backing in that I didn't think it was too likely the Serp was scumpaired with Jan-san. For now though, I'm certain the Serp is our target. There's not a whole lot I can say about Affinity right now except that he's definitely scum if the game doesn't end after Serp's lynch.
My RoleClaim:
I am dBu Music, Townie AWESOME shot dayvig. During the day phase, and can take the metaphorical song that is this game and make a drastic Keyshift. I can only do this once a game because, really, how many shifts in tempo and key can you make during one song while keeping an audience?
As for posting restrictions, it's likely the result of Serp's or the Mod's doing. the former is much more likely.
I would love to see Serp and Affinity's reactions to these events.
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Good music choice ^-^
Thanks. I thought it was the most fitting.
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Well, drat. It seems that I've been out-bombshelled. For what it's worth, I'm leaning towards Zakeri as scum-with-a-daykill. Regarding Affinity, his final vote on Sodium seems too decisive to be a bussing attempt, and he's been pretty consistently anti-Sodium all game.
##Vote Zakeri
I'll just park my vote here.
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(http://symonsez.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/nuclear_explosion.jpg)
Yes, I realized that I forgot to fulfill the condition due to not having enough time... and I would like the mod to confirm what happens if the posting restrictions are not fulfilled; would a PM be sent, or will a warning be made public?
I roleclaim IOSYS, vanilla townie. The dayvig was partially surprising, and I'm not very sure what to make of it. Considering however, that scum would have nothing to gain from such a dayvig (since alice would have been a mislynch candidate in the first place), I'm thinking of Zakeri as town.
Serp however, is less convincing on the account of the survivor claim and the quick vote on Zakeri which I don't endorse. Primary candidate for today in my opinion.
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EBWOP: I got PM'ed by the mod that the post restrictions just last one day. It wasn't properly said so though.
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Well, I was going to do the full reread tonight, but I got distracted. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlem4f37xq499gk?from=Main.AttentionDeficitOohShiny) For the moment, my focus is going to be on the Day 4 posts and revelations and I'll consider everything as a whole by tomorrow. I'm primarily interested in Serp's #329 which was made under the pretense that I was considering Zakeri as his Scumbuddy.
The mod clarification that Scum can choose to Not Kill in my #336 doesn't completely clear Suwako since it's about as crazy of a gambit as a Scum Affinity possibly bussing both of his buddies. The difference is that Suwako's gambit requires Scum having the foresight to realize they could No Kill and/or having the roles available to have it blocked. Doing this while Town had 2 mislynches already is... possible, but I'm finding it harder to believe than anything else. Meh, still the lowest of the possible scumbuddies choices.
First off, Zakeri suspects Serp and Suwako at the start while Affinity suspects Serp. Therefore, there is already a likelihood of bussing with Zakeri being more iffy and Affinity being more certain. And Zakeri in #330 states the Serp/Sodium pair is unlikely and shoots Alice. It eliminates the WIFOM, but at the same time would bring us to a 3:2 LYLO if there are 2 more scum. I guess the weirdest thing that follows is that while Zakeri thinks Affinity would be the second Scum, Affinity is leaning Zakeri as Town. Affinity: if that's the case, who would you suspect as the final Scum then, me or Suwako?
On to Serp's #239: he goes along with the idea that me as a Naive cop would get an innocent result on Zakeri if I follow through with my plan at the time. And then pushes for a Zakeri lynch regardless of the fact that I had announced Zakeri would be his Scumbuddy. He also says we'd have to take our chances with Zakeri and Alice and fails to mention Affinity or Suwako. The final point is pretty much to vote Alice and say Zakeri is a good choice if we ever want to switch to him. Scum Serp could definitely set up that kind of a scenario in the hopes that we decide to avoid dealing with the conflicting copclaim results and just lynch Zakeri. But what would offering to lynch Zakeri who I thought was his Scumbuddy, do for Scum Serp at the time? Scum Serp should know that there's no way we'd meaningfully pass up a Guilty verdict so if we decided to just look for and lynch his Scumbuddy first, he's probably still more likely to die in Day 5 over Alice. Which makes him propping up Zakeri as the secondary choice as weird in context to my declaration about Zakeri earlier and suggests that Zakeri may not be the last Scum after all. And I already mentioned his comment about Affinity which is made under the assumption that I felt Affinity was the most Townie one at the time... way to prop him up more.
Now we have to consider what was going on with how Scum Serp would think about Zakeri as his buddy being a Scum Dayvig or Zakeri as a Townie while not knowing what role Town Zakeri had. For Zakeri to be a Scum Dayvig, killing a Townie is good, but killing Alice pretty much would have sealed Serp's fate. So the question is why is there any reason for Scum Zakeri to shoot Town Alice? In such a case, it would be better to not actually use the Vig at all and have him take his chances with a relatively inactive Alice as a possible Godmother in Day 5. This would definitely have been possible if Serp doesn't flip a Godmother (and I don't see how he can because I have a Guilty result on him). A Town Zakeri however, seeing the opportunity to safely Vig, chooses the target we would never be able to definitively clear which arguably outweighs the fact that it would have dropped us into 3:2. His reason to shoot Alice still kinda sucks because he's essentially defending Serp, but it's the action that's standing out a little more here. Zakeri, can you give us a better understanding of your thought processes from the end of Day 3 (where you don't vote either Kerigis or Sodium at deadline) to now?
Conclusion: Serp is trying to prop up Alice and Zakeri as lynch targets after my WoT. Serp is obviously trying to win and knows his time is counting down. If we are indeed in LYLO and he can just get people to mislynch once, Scum will escape. That strongly hints that both Alice (confirmed) and Zakeri (unconfirmed) are actual mislynch targets and this isn't a bussing tactic. And me saying Zakeri is likely Scum would have played right into his hands if Zakeri is Town and we just stopped thinking and went along with it. Furthermore, Serp in such a scenario may not have expected Town Zakeri to be able to clear the Alice WIFOM which in retrospect, makes what all of what he said come off real weird. Finally, he indirectly propped up Affinity when objectively, there's no need to do so. On this alone, I am definitely leaning Affinity as Scum over Zakeri. I just need to reread Day 1-3 in these contexts to see if it fits or not. The weakness with this whole analysis though is that it is dependent on how I think Serp would act as Scum. I think there are some reasoned guesses, but there's nothing I can truly bank on here. I especially want Suwako to give his input on a bunch of the above points.
I'm tired and having trouble thinking up more specific questions so any evidence Zakeri and Affinity want to put forward or questions about anything I've said, go ahead. Oh, and if Serp flips a Goon like Sodium did, then that means that either Affinity or Suwako is lying about not being able to give post restrictions, and I'm pretty sure I'd bank more on Affinity being the liar. You don't tend to forget about these things easily unless you're doing a EBWOP maybe and Affinity wasn't doing one when he missed the nuke.
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Well, it was over two days after the last time I posted a nuke, and so I forgot. It was tiresome at best googling nuclear images and thus it was forgettable, especially after a quick reread and some thought.
If I had to choose between you and Suwako, I would choose Suwako on the account of the claim that he was targetted on N2. This wasn't followed up on N3, although I could think that the serial killer may have targetted Rou as well, or that the reason why he was targetted on N2 was that scum has a one-shot nightvig. He was also slightly inactive in his questioning of Sodium towards the end of D3 when the latter was producing things to work with, and on such grounds, it seems like a likely bus in retrospect.
Other than that, there is nothing concrete to counter against; just a suspicion so far.
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Well, there's an interesting development. There's one last vital piece of information about my role I was holding back on the off chance that scum would make this sort of screwup. I had one ability in addition to nighttalking in order to help me reach the endgame. That ability was a one shot bulletproof, and it was used up on Night 2. At the time, I figured that either Suwako or myself had been targetted by a nightvig, and I preferred not to draw attention to myself by mentioning it in public. But, no one has claimed a nightvig ability. So, either someone out there is lying about their night ability (somewhat unlikely, as I see no reason for a townie to do so at this point), or Suwako is lying about having been attacked (maybe to determine whether people who have survived attacks really do get notified?).
Not that I expect anyone to take my words at face value by this point, but this rockets Suwako up to top suspicion for me, even considering how anti-Sodium he's been all game. (Cut by Affinity, see end of post.)
Anyway, Kiro, if you really have confirmation that your sanity is one of the traditional ones, keep in mind that none of those would commit you to an "innocent" or "irrelevant" investigation result from third parties. Since your result on Alice has been proven correct, you're effectively confirmed as sane. This brings up the setup speculation point that as a sane cop you may well have been placed against three scum to start out with, meaning that two are still left alive. If this is the case, then you can't afford to blindly follow your investigation result. Keep that in mind when you finally decide to place your vote.
Cut by Affinity:
If I had to choose between you and Suwako, I would choose Suwako on the account of the claim that he was targetted on N2. This wasn't followed up on N3, although I could think that the serial killer may have targetted Rou as well, or that the reason why he was targetted on N2 was that scum has a one-shot nightvig. He was also slightly inactive in his questioning of Sodium towards the end of D3 when the latter was producing things to work with, and on such grounds, it seems like a likely bus in retrospect.
Ah, what? I didn't claim that I was attacked N2 until just now. You shouldn't have had any reason at all to believe that there were two night attacks N2, implicating the presence of either a serial killer or a nightvig. There's no way you would've known that Suwako's uncontested-'till-now claim of being night-attacked was suspicious before this post.
##Unvote
##Vote Affinity
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Kiro: My thoughts on your thoughts are they're mostly correct and that there isn't as much dependent on guessing what Scum Serpentarius would do because a good chunk of it depends on Town Zakeri vs. Scum Zakeri. For all intents and purposes, I believe Zakeri is cleared, simply because 9/3 with a scum DayVig is extremely unlikely, even given who the mods are. Pile that on top of there being no reason for Scum Zakeri to off Alice in the fashion that he did, and Town Zakeri is the only thing I can conclude. None of this is based off of "what would Scum Serpentarius do?".
This led me to believe in a Serpentarius/Affinity scumpair, the same destination your train of thought went in that post, and this belief is only solidified by the recent turn of events, most notably Serpentarius' 345 and his claim that he was attacked on Night 2 in addition to myself. If this were true then there would have been no excuse for not coming out immediately. Why didn't you want to draw attention to yourself, Serpentarius? Was keeping yourself on the down-low really worth not letting town know there was a second NK role running around? (For the record, I do not believe a serial killer exists, given the lack of a second NK on Nights 1 and 3. It's possible scum and SK both targeted Carthrat and Roukanken but incredibly unlikely.)
I believe what just transpired in the last two posts was Serpentarius and Affinity trying a distancing tactic to create more confusion similar to Kiro going over Serpentarius and Zakeri earlier. This is compounded by "I was holding back on the off chance that scum would make this sort of screwup", which suggests he believes I'm scum (you held back on the claim for an entire day - and were theoretically prepared to hold back on it for another day - just for a situation that would, at best, cause more confusion?), and his line of reasoning about Kiro's copishness that can be summed up as "I know you're confirmed sane and have a guilty result on me, but you should still look somewhere else!". I would guess that, since his attempt to set up Zakeri as a mislynch has failed, he has switched to trying to set me up as a mislynch, with Affinity's "slip" to support him.
##Vote: Serpentarius
I don't see a need to hold back in case of scum self-hammer anymore.
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The Twentieth "Blood" Vote Count
The Maid and the Pocket Watch of Blood (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_fLDBHJb4I)
Affinity (1): Serpentarius
Suwako Moriya (0)
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (1): Suwako Moriya
Not Voting (3): Kiro, Affinity, Zakeri
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch
Deadline is in 34 hours at 9:00 PM EST on Friday, August 21st.
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So tell me this, then, Serp? if you think Sodium is definitely scum because he lied about being night protected, why did you vote Affinity for seemingly knowing Sodium lied? And why did you bother going after me and Alice if you knew all along Sodium was lying about his role? And more importantly ... if you're just the Survivor, what's to stop scum from coming forward, if neither of them are you, and saying "Hey, you can win if we all vote Kiro!"
I doubt you think there are two scum besides yourself, and if you were survivor, I'd think you were right. It wouldn't make sense to have sufficient evidence to go after one person and then vote for another for commenting on the evidence before you presented it.
And lastly, your evidence for voting Affinity is poor. It's based around the notion that he should completely buy into Suwako's roleclaim 100% unless someone else decides to counterclaim. The truth is, no one gains from believing Suwako in Absolute Faith unless you're Sanae, or it's been proven Suwako is town.
This is sufficient grounds for floundering scum, and I believe Suwako should be added to the list of "Unlikely to be scum due to more than bussing from Serp."
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All references to half of the elemental components of Salt should instead be references to half of the contents of the Moriya Shrine.
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It wasn't a slip, but a gambit. I'm a tracker, who got no results on N1 from tracking Carthrat. I tracked Sodium on N2 and found that he had targeted Serp. I was surprised that Serp did not claim being attacked on D3, which he would have surely done as a townie in order to give town more information (because scum already knew this after N2, I suppose). Then I supposed that maybe he was roleblocked and decided to give him a pass as town.
After Sodium's flip on D3, it became clear as to what was happening; Sodium was mafia goon and so Serp was NK'ed, meaning that he was bulletproof. Targetted Serp again on N4 and there was nothing. Under these circumstances, decided to roleclaim as townie to see what Serp would roleclaim but surprisingly, during his roleclaim, there was no mention of being targeted on N2. As a final resort, I pretended to 'slip' the last post to incite a response and see if, maybe, there was a hidden doctor who protected him among the flips, but his last post got rid of that possibility, instead, suddenly coming out with a vote on me and taking the bait.
From the above information, I think that what happened on N2 was that scum had a night-vig (probably one-shot due to lack of extra kills on N1 and N3), but it was blocked. Sodium then went ahead and NK'ed Serp in the process, but that NK was blocked too. That night-vig's identity is difficult to ascertain; it sort of flips my suspicion list around; Suwako is relatively cleared while Zakeri and Kiro are slightly more likely candidtates.
What is important here is that keeping information from town like this is scummy, the reason Serp gave, which was to catch scum if they made a mistake, is pretty strange on the account that it is very unlikely for scum to make such a mistake. Also, the reason for catching the '2nd killer' if there was any, is bad as scum and/or the serial killer would have already known that there was such information, generating nothing but gotcha games as the parties involved could adjust accordingly. From this, I think Serp is scum. His attempt to put Zakeri as a candidate up for lynch as opposed to Zakeri, as the latter raised, is also questionable, and it fits with him not voting Sodium yesterday for less than good reasons.
##Vote: Serpentarius
Serpy is at L-1, etc.
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EBWOP: Posting restrictions just occured ot me with regards to this theory. However, I wouldn't put it above the scum one-shot night-vig (if there is one, which I think there is) to be able to additionally give posting restrictions to people, and judging that so far, the restrictions have been near harmless, it doesn't seem to be implausible.
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If this were true then there would have been no excuse for not coming out immediately. Why didn't you want to draw attention to yourself, Serpentarius? Was keeping yourself on the down-low really worth not letting town know there was a second NK role running around?
Oh, it was an anti-town move, I freely admit to that. I've only been scumhunting insofar as it'd lead to an early end to the game and an easier win for me. Survivor victory condition, remember? If you were actually a townie telling the truth, for me to come out as also having been attacked and also being NK immune would've resulted in a counterclaim from you and heaps of suspicion on me, who had previously been on a fasttrack to the endgame. If I were a townie, of course I'd have let everyone know as soon as it happened.
This is compounded by "I was holding back on the off chance that scum would make this sort of screwup", which suggests he believes I'm scum (you held back on the claim for an entire day - and were theoretically prepared to hold back on it for another day - just for a situation that would, at best, cause more confusion?)
Looks like it was a damn good idea, too. I'll bet that up 'till just now, you thought that I hadn't noticed your NK attempt and you didn't need to have Affinity claim a nightvig role.
And why did you bother going after me and Alice if you knew all along Suwako was lying about his role?
Up 'till Affinity's roleclaim, I thought it was possible that Suwako was telling the truth. If Affinity had roleclaimed Nightvig and said that he had hit either me or Suwako N2, then everything would have fit together and I'd have been up the creek without a paddle.
So tell me this, then, Serp? if you think Suwako is definitely scum because he lied about being night protected, why did you vote Affinity for seemingly knowing Suwako lied?
Read over it again - he says that Suwako is suspicious for claiming to be attacked N2 because it "wasn't followed up on" N3. There was one kill N3, and he should only have been "aware" of one NK attempt N2. He wasn't saying that he knew Suwako lied, he was saying that he had reason to believe that Suwako was lying due to evidence the town didn't have. Only scum would be in a position to know that someone out there was aware that somone else had been attacked N2. I'm 100% certain that he's scum.
Meanwhile, I was leaving open the slim possibility that Suwako was a townie and had lied to try and trip up scum, but this seems even more unlikely after his post sidestepping Affinity and trying to rush a quicklynch of me. If the game ends after Affinity goes down, that's great, but if I'm 100% certain that Affinity is scum, then I'm... 95% certain that Suwako is as well.
And more importantly ... if you're just the Survivor, what's to stop scum from coming forward, if neither of them are you, and saying "Hey, you can win if we all vote Kiro!"
I doubt you think there are two scum besides yourself, and if you were survivor, I'd think you were right. It wouldn't make sense to have sufficient evidence to go after one person and then vote for another for commenting on the evidence before you presented it.
Interesting point. It wouldn't have been possible before you vigged Alice, but now it is. I was too flustered after your dayvig to even consider it. What do you say, Affinity, Suwako? Things are about to get pretty hot in here.
As a final resort, I pretended to 'slip' the last post to incite a response and see if, maybe, there was a hidden doctor who protected him among the flips, but his last post got rid of that possibility, instead, suddenly coming out with a vote on me and taking the bait.
This makes no sense at all. Who could have been the hidden doc? Did you think that Kiro could investigate and protect two different people in one night? Did you think that Zakeri was a dayvig-nightdoc? Did you think that Suwako protected me and then claimed to be attacked himself?
From the above information, I think that what happened on N2 was that scum had a night-vig (probably one-shot due to lack of extra kills on N1 and N3), but it was blocked. Sodium then went ahead and NK'ed Serp in the process, but that NK was blocked too.
If I were Suwako's scumbuddy, why would he try to NK me in the first place? If you were actually telling the truth with all this, shouldn't that have confirmed to you in that I'm not scum, and shouldn't you have come out with that evidence in defense of me earlier today instead of baiting imaginary docs?
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So, you're also a one shot bulletproof as well as a Mason Survivor Serp? Nice. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AssPull) I'd honestly have given you more credence if you brought it up earlier, but you waited to see what type of protective type role was out there first. Also, of course I can't blindly follow my investigation result. But if I'm sane, there's no indication as to why I should ignore a Guilty result. You've long been a foregone thought, I'm just thinking about Town's future.
The back and forth by Affinity and Serp in #344 is weird. Frankly, Affinity is making no sense with his theory about the serial killer and I'd lean towards the idea that there's intentional confusion going on. Serp switching it up to Affinity now had no effect on me because everything after my post last night is now tainted with the idea that Serp can only try to confuse us rather than possibly push for a mislynch.
Oh hey, Suwako said the exact same things I posted above. I calculated that 3 Scum with a Dayvig amongst them is actually not terribly imbalanced. With or without the Vig, Town can only afford 2 mislynches over Scum lynches. So I didn't want to consider that point. But the rest of what you said makes sense to me.
Also, Town Affinity shouldn't have to have first lied about being a Vanilla Townie before now claiming a Tracker. He's the last one to roleclaim today so there should have been nothing for him to hide in the first place. Why you should expect Serp to have hidden or change parts of his story or roleclaim is beyond me. If a Cop has a Guilty result on you and you're not Scum, you better damn well put everything forward first to give you the best chance of dissuading the likely lynch. You expecting Serp to not do that is unreasonable. Also, if Sodium tracked Serp on Night 2, why'd you start off going for Kerigis in Day 3? You place no new pressure on Xan/Sodium despite him being your first target on Day 2. And I should also note that your actual final vote in Day 2 was on Alice, who stood a decent chance of being mislynched while dropping it from a now-confirmed Scum.
I don't think I have any more questions. I can see Zakeri probably looks like he's leaning towards Affinity as the last Scum as well, but I'm more or less set. If he has any more questions, he can ask them, but if not, feel free to hammer.
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I'd honestly have given you more credence if you brought it up earlier, but you waited to see what type of protective type role was out there first.
At least consider the scenario that I'm not scum and Affinity is, for a moment. If I had claimed to have been attacked, Affinity would've roleclaimed a vig role in order to protect Suwako's claim of having been attacked too. I wasn't waiting to see protective roles - I was waiting to see killing roles.
But if I'm sane, there's no indication as to why I should ignore a Guilty result.
I'm not asking you to ignore it. I'm asking you to keep in mind that if you've scanned a third party and there are two more scum out there, you don't have the wiggle room to blindly follow it. Your Guilty result does not equal a mafioso flip. You're wagering the whole game on your investigation meaning exactly what you think it does.
The back and forth by Affinity and Serp in #344 is weird. Frankly, Affinity is making no sense with his theory about the serial killer and I'd lean towards the idea that there's intentional confusion going on. Serp switching it up to Affinity now had no effect on me because everything after my post last night is now tainted with the idea that Serp can only try to confuse us rather than possibly push for a mislynch.
Affinity's posts are weird in themselves. You seem to have eliminated everyone else as one of my scumbuddies, a lynch of Affinity should be just as safe as a lynch of me. He's clearly scum, by evidence stronger than a cop investigation. Lynch him now, and then whoever's left tomorrow will choose whether to lynch me or Suwako. That's the only way Town can win at this point.
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Yes, Guys, we should totally hold back on our roleclaim information even if it means lying about it. I'm sure it would give the town a lot of valid information to work with, and will help the town to piece together everything that happened during the night phases to better understand everything. And I'm sure that once you come out with the real information, the Town will surely trust you, because you were honest with them to begin with.
All I'm seeing from these interactions and Affinity's roleclaim is Serp trying to give Affinity a solid out through the only mislynch that is currently viable. This of course is awkwardly worded between them because Serp is still trying play as a survivor would this late in the game.
Affinity: What exactly makes you think there's someone with a Night kill besides Mafia? Who do you think it could be? Someone alive or someone dead? Also, Since Suwako's ability is that he doesn't get targeted, it's unlikely the the mod would give him a warning anyway, so where aside from Suwako assuming it was him that was targeted and not Serp makes you think that both Suwako and Serp were shot?
All of this information is starting to confuse and worry me. Affinty's claim completely backs up Serp's, which proves to me that they're both the same amount of worthy of the lynch, either by both being scum supporting each other indirectly, or by both of them being truthful about their abilities and alignment, which means our last scum would be suwako. Their weird stances in voting for each other seems awkward to me now, since they're practically tied to the knot and act like they're different alignments. All of this rocking out too close to a wall (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WallBanger) is giving me a headache.
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Oh, it was an anti-town move, I freely admit to that. I've only been scumhunting insofar as it'd lead to an early end to the game and an easier win for me. Survivor victory condition, remember? If you were actually a townie telling the truth, for me to come out as also having been attacked and also being NK immune would've resulted in a counterclaim from you and heaps of suspicion on me, who had previously been on a fasttrack to the endgame. If I were a townie, of course I'd have let everyone know as soon as it happened.
Except, at the time, there was a very real possibility of a SK running around, given Nietz's claim. Had you really been attacked, this would have been taken into consideration when you claimed such. Town Serpentarius (or Survivor Serpentarius, to humor the roleclaim) would have had no way of knowing there wasn't actually a serial killer on the loose and probably even would have brought the SK possibility up himself when claiming.
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I don't see why we should bother lynching anyone else over Serp today. For our purposes in this LYLO, 1 Scum and 1 Survivor is essentially the same as 2 Scum. The only way we will lose if Serp is a Survivor is if there are 2 other Scum along with him. And having 3 Scum, 1 Survivor and 8 Townies in this game looks grossly imbalanced. I will take that chance. Serp's latest actions as well as the guilty result are more than enough to have him lynched. Hell, if he flips a Survivor type with a Bulletproof option, that just reopens the case on Suwako which is good information for us. I believe this at least would eliminate some doubt about Suwako who we only have his word that he received a PM about being attacked. I can see our mods giving him that kind of information despite all other normal player type actions used against him being blocked. It's standard enough for some mods.
Us thinking about this for too long is bound to cause confusion. I know Zakeri has put out questions for Affinity, but they can be delayed till tomorrow depending on who's still alive then. His first paragraph pretty much clinches the scumminess of Serp and Affinity in my eyes along with bad voting history. I guess we could also note that a Scum Affinity merely tying the votes up in Day 3 allows him to selectively look good in either case. He avoids having his name on the mislynch, looks better if/when Sodium flips Scum AND there's a chance the mislynch would have occurred in the haiku-off anyways.
Time to stick with the common sense approach, something Serp and Affinity are deviating from. Scum did not kill anyone Night 2 and we have a bulletproof claim in Suwako that looks more legit than Serp's. Zakeri vigged a target that would have definitely been the optimal one to leave alive if he were Scum. In light of Serp's and Affinity's panicky looking changing stories, I am not willing to think either Suwako or Zakeri would have taken those drastic steps to distance themselves as Scum. Both Town Serp and Town Affinity can play better than that.
Let's finish this. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GetItOverWith)
##Vote Serpentarius
HAMMER!
I have nothing to add to Suwako's post.
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Oops, I knew I was missing something. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SomethingWeForgot)
Zakeri,
Zakeri, can you give us a better understanding of your thought processes from the end of Day 3 (where you don't vote either Kerigis or Sodium at deadline) to now?
Please answer this in Twilight or tomorrow.
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HAMMER shut up.
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The Twenty-First "Game Over" Vote Count
U.N Owen was Her? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q16KpquGsIc)
Affinity (1): Serpentarius
Suwako Moriya (0)
Kiro (0)
Zakeri (0)
Serpentarius (3): Suwako Moriya, Affinity, Kiro
Not Voting (1): Zakeri
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch
With 3 votes Serpentarius is lynched. Scene to follow.
-
5 people remained after Zakeri's performance...5 people, all suspicious of each other. Affinity and Serpentarius seemed to be having a very strange exchange when finally ZUN spoke up.
ZUN/Kiro: That's it! Serpentarius has ADMITTED to stealing my music, and I cannot abide by him living! He needs to die now!
He places the finishing vote.
Merlin/Serpentarius: I...tried to warn you.
she says sadly as she is strung up.
I eagerly snatch at her soul when she finally dies and analyze it...
Me: Hmm...Ooh, this is intriguing...
Serpentarius, Merlin Prismriver, Trumpteer Serial Killer Neighbor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9wHYiicY5I) has been lynched D4
ZUN is mildly surprised at this, but still has a grin on his face.
ZUN/Kiro: Well, he was messing with the process anyway!
But then...Affinity and Suwako turn to ZUN
Affinity/IOSYS: Yes...he WAS getting in the way...for now we can eliminate YOU
Suwako/DJ Technetium: Yes...for years we have tried to rival your musical skill and somehow failed, merely being remix artists of your songs. But now...we've finally overcome you! We have your score and we can publish it with you out of the way!
Zakeri/dBu Music: No! You can't do that! What am I supposed to remix!
ZUN/Kiro: NOOOO! How dare you! You...two bit hacks! Even you IOSYS. I don't care HOW many losers try to give you credit for Touhou...it was all me! You BASTARDS!
Affinity/IOSYS: Well, we'll take care of everything...starting with you.
And with a couple bars of Marisa Stole the Precious Thing, ZUN starts to go mad...running into walls, going insane. I take it upon myself to blast him before he does something that hurts all of us.
Kiro, ZUN, Townie Drunken Original Artist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvLBi8VNKzk), Endgamed and blasted with hellcat danmaku D4
Zakeri, outnumbered, tries his best to pull off another key change but it just sounds bad as IOSYS and DJ Technetium close on him, drilling madness into him with speedcore and bad flash PVs. Zakeri takes his own life to avoid the full extent of his fate...
Zakeri, dBu Music, Townie AWESOME shot dayvig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWsWDQTYK_4&feature=PlayList&p=43E20E5639482367&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=59), endgamed and suicided D4
The two successful scum then turn to me.
Affinity/IOSYS: Oh hey, could you do us a favor and return Innocent Key's soul? Even if his haiku are bad we need him for the grand scheme to take over ZUN's music
Me: Hai hai, just don't make me go batshit. I'm crazy enough as it is.
And thusly, the three mafia, Affinity, Suwako, and Sodium steal ZUN's music and ruin touhou forever. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuinedFOREVER)
BAD END #2
Role PMs and set up comments to follow.
Don't bitch til I'm done.
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Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Kiro. You are ZUN, Townie Drunken Original Artist
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvLBi8VNKzk) is an example of your work.
As such, you have the following special abilities:
Drink: You may spend the night drinking some alcohol. It might get some creative juices flowing.
Investigate: You may spend the night investigating another player to see if they stole the score to your newest album.
NOTE: Sanity is not guaranteed
Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm in-thread.
Mod notes: This was essentially a screwed up every other night cop. The mechanic was ZUN had to drink the previous night to get a sane result, and if he was sober he'd get insane results. Kiro drank N1 so got a sane result on Alice N2, and directly went to investigate Serpy N3, getting an insane result. Yes, Serpy would have turned up innocent.
Oh yeah, he could also drink while jailkept.
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, 天使. You are Azure and Sands, Jazzy Jailkeeper
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2GnKXwKraA&feature=related) is an example of your work.
As such, you have the following special abilities:
Jailkeep [MUSIC]: It's hard not to appreciate sitting in your hotel room listening to some jazz. You may target a player and they will not leave their hotel room for the night. Also, there's just something really cool about jazz that would distract anyone who might mean harm to your target. Therefore, you also protect them from night kills.
Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm in-thread.
Mod Notes: Pretty straightforward. Might have been an interesting game had this role not been lynched D1. Also, you may notice the music tag. This has relevance with other roles.
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Suwako Moriya. You are DJ Technetium, Mafia Entrancer
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvux3kub8wo) is an example of your work.
As such, you have the following special abilities:
Annoyance [MUSIC]: You cannot be targeted because Cis Trance is rather annoyingly distracting
Buddies!: You are mafia with Edible, Innocent Key, and Affinity, IOSYS. You may talk to them outside the game at night.
Kill: Every night, you, Edible, or Affinity may make a kill. Your kill method is Beaten to Death.
Win Condition (Mafia): You win when the mafia control over half the votes.
Please confirm in-thread.
Mod Notes: dBu's POWER KILL could still shoot, since if Suwako were COMPLETELY impervious he technically couldn't be voted. Overall I think it was a nice godfather variant.
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Kerigis. You are Lyrica Prismriver, Keyboardist Townie Neighbor
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9wHYiicY5I) is an example of your work.
As such, you have the following special abilities:
Buddies!: You are neighbors with Serpentarius, Merlin Prismriver and Roukanken, Lunasa Prsimriver. You may speak to each other outside the thread at night. You do NOT know each other's alignment.
Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm in-thread.
Mod Note: I'd like to note that originally this was the only townie in the neighbor group. It was going to be a vanilla scum, the SK, and this. I was convinced not to do this by my reviewer, but I think if I run this set up again I'll reconsider that.
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Serpentarius. You are Merlin Prismriver, Trumpteer Serial Killer Neighbor
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9wHYiicY5I) is an example of your work.
As such, you have the following special abilities:
Buddies!: You are neighbors with Jan-san, Lyrica Prismriver and Roukanken, Lunasa Prsimriver. You may speak to each other outside the thread at night. You do NOT know each other's alignment.
Kill [MUSIC]: Target player will be killed. Kill method is Murder on the High Cs.
Pathetic: You play trumpet, therefore you are too pathetic to kill outright. Though this only seems to work once, as people get over it after listening to you long enough. You are effectively immune to being night killed once.
Win Condition (Third Party Serial Killer): You win when all other factions have left the game and you are the only one left alive.
Please confirm in-thread.
Mod Notes: I liked this role, and contrary to popular belief, I was COMPLETELY unfamiliar with berserk merlin before making merlin the SK. I just hate trumpet players for the most part :P. If I were to change it I'd likely switch the kill resistance with Suwako's and take out the psychologist, for reasons you will see.
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Roukanken. You are Lunasa Prismriver, Violinist Townie Neighbor
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9wHYiicY5I) is an example of your work.
As such, you have the following special abilities:
Buddies!: You are neighbors with Serpentarius, Merlin Prismriver and Jan-san, Lyrica Prsimriver. You may speak to each other outside the thread at night. You do NOT know each other's alignment.
Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm in-thread.
Mod notes: Other neighbor. More specifically for Roukanken, while you were right to assume there was an anti town force in the neighbor group, don't always expect such a thing :P.
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Affinity. You are IOSYS, Mafia Earwormist
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qS1kqhhebw) is an example of your work.
As such, you have the following special abilities:
Memetic Mutation [MUSIC]: Target player gains a post restriction decided by the moderator.
Buddies!: You are mafia with Edible, Innocent Key, and Suwako Moriya, DJ Technetium. You may talk to them outside the game at night.
Kill: Every night, you, Edible, or Suwako Moriya may make a kill. Your kill method is Ran Over.
Win Condition (Mafia): You win when the mafia control over half the votes.
Please confirm in-thread.
Mod Note: The three PRs I had lined up were the nuclear one, the TV Tropes one, and one where you had to post japanese lyrics in every post. If I had needed more maybe I'd make a "Misspell a few words in every post" to "Cirno's Perfect Math Classroom". I dunno, I would have worked something out. I also kinda made the PR ability PMs as the ability was used, so here are the two that saw play:
Earworm C - Okuu's Nuclear Fusion Gym (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlbiNSQL_Tw): It appears you can't get this song out of your head! You feel compelled to post a picture of a nuclear explosion in every post. Failure to obey this compulsion will result in a warning the first two times, but the third failure will result in you yourself becoming the nuclear explosion. Since comiket frowns upon people exploding, you will also be BANNED FROM COMIKET FOREVAR. Good luck!
Earworm A - Marisa Stole The Precious Thing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlbiNSQL_Tw): It appears you can't get this song (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MemeticMutation) out of your head! You feel compelled to post a relevant TV trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage) in every post. Failure to obey this compulsion will result in a warning the first two times, but the third failure will result in you having your life ruined. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife) Of course, the start of this is that you will be BANNED FROM COMIKET FOREVAR. Good luck!
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[/quote]
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Zakeri. You are dBu Music, Townie AWESOME shot dayvig
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWsWDQTYK_4&feature=PlayList&p=43E20E5639482367&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=59) is an example of your work.
As such, you have the following special abilities:
Power Kill [MUSIC]: Target player will be killed. However, you know how awesome music goes...it starts off a little slow and then BANG something ridiculous happens. As such, you cannot use this ability until the key change on D2.
Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm in-thread.
[/quote]
Mod Note: Directly inspired by Touhou justice. Flavor came from the fact that dBu ALWAYS has a freaking key change and it usually sounds cool. I liked this role (duh, it was a vig)
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Nietz. You are Xepher Cradle, Townie Neoclassical Psychologist
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryy00VN9C2Y) is an example of your work. (Sorry I couldn't find the full version)
As such, you have the following special abilities:
And How Does That Make You Feel?: Target a player. If targetted player is a serial killer, they will become a townie. If the player is not a serial killer, nothing happens.
Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm in-thread.
Mod Notes: Meet the game breaker (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameBreaker). I was seriously retarded when I made this role. Not because it was a psychologist, but because of some mod notes I had...such as how the neighbor group becomes a masonry if the SK is cured. No, 4 confirmed town wouldn't break the game, not at all...*rolls eyes*
Let me show you the revised neighbor PMs if Serpy had been cured:
Congratulations, PLAYERNAME. You have been cured of your desire to kill everyone. You are now Merlin, Townie Trumpeting Mason
Your abilities have changed:
Buddies!: You are in a masonry with PLAYERNAME, Lunasa Prismriver and PLAYERNAME, Lyrica Prsimriver. You may speak to each other outside the thread at night. You know each other to be town.
Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.
Lunasa
With Merlin cured of her madness, you have gained a new ability:
Buddies!: You are in a masonry with PLAYERNAME, Merlin Prismriver and PLAYERNAME, Lyrica Prsimriver. You may speak to each other outside the thread at night. You know each other to be town.
Lyrica
With Merlin cured of her madness, you have gained a new ability:
Buddies!: You are in a masonry with PLAYERNAME, Merlin Prismriver and PLAYERNAME, Lunasa Prsimriver. You may speak to each other outside the thread at night. You know each other to be town.
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Carthrat. You are UI-70, Townie Metalmixer Jack of All Trades
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB1AHrQy9Hs) is an example of your work.
As such, you have the following special abilities:
Smash Guitar [MUSIC]: You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?
Keep the Beat [MUSIC]: You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?
Drum Solo [MUSIC]: You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?
Overdrive [MUSIC]: You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?
Deadly Dancing Butterfly: You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?
View of Spiral Riverside: You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?
Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same. You really have no idea what this does. But it sounds pretty cool, doesn't it?
Please confirm in-thread.
Mod Notes: So yeah, this was simultaniously bastardly and awesome. The actual abilities were as follows:
Smash Guitar: Nullify all music based abilities of that night.
(Mod Note: This would be Jazz Jailkeep, Entrancer untargetability, Trumpeteer Kill, Earwormist PR)
(Hence the music tag)
Keep the beat: Repeats Previous action
Drum Solo: Makes untargettable by music based abilities.
(Mod Note: This would be Jazz Jailkeep, Entrancer untargetability, Trumpeteer Kill, Earwormist PR)
(Also fun with music)
Overdrive: Target will hang out with you and your awesome guitar solo that night, allowing you to watch who targets them. They lose their night action though (Kinda like jailkeeper except watch instead of protect)
(I personally wish this had seen use)
Deadly Dancing Butterfly: You follow the target that night. If they kill someone, you kill them.
(Unfortunately Carth targetted Jan-san. This is effectively "If you target killing scum, they die". Kinda cool, but mildly broken if known)
The View of Spiral Riverside: Sane cop Investigation. (duh)
I really hated how early this role died. But, you can't win em all.
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Sodium. You are Innocent Key, Mafia Goon
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPilJCvwKok) is an example of your work.
As such, you have the following special abilities:
Buddies!: You are mafia with Suwako Moriya, DJ Technetium, and Affinity, IOSYS. You may talk to them outside the game at night.
Kill: Every night, you, Affinity, or Suwako Moriya may make a kill. Your kill method is Knee Socked.
Win Condition (Mafia): You win when the mafia control over half the votes.
Please confirm in-thread.
Mod Note: Oh cmon, they wrote the song about Flandre and Remilia having a BDSM lifestyle with Sakuya. How could the NOT be scum?
Welcome to Touhou Remix Mafia, Alice Margatroid. You are Golden City Factory, Vanilla Townie
This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNBSpMN7rmA) is an example of your work.
As such, you have the following special abilities:
Absolutely Nothing: You really don't do anything except vote and talk. Sucks to be you, ne?
Win Condition (Town): You win when all other factions have left the game, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm in-thread.
Mod Note: Obligatory Vanilla. Blame Tar.
That's all the roles. I'm sure everyone will have a bitchfest now.
Oh, about lylo notification. I don't normally do it anyway but there's also the fact you were technically in lylo with 9 alive. Wouldn't that reveal a LITTLE too much about the set up?
(It DID assume Zak vigging town, SK killing town, and Scum killing town, as well as you all lynching town, triggering the scum win con of controlling more than 50% of the vote)
So yeah...any questions?
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For our purposes in this LYLO, 1 Scum and 1 Survivor is essentially the same as 2 Scum. The only way we will lose if Serp is a Survivor is if there are 2 other Scum along with him. And having 3 Scum, 1 Survivor and 8 Townies in this game looks grossly imbalanced.
Actually, it's a fairly standard and valid set up on MS judging from the games I've played, which with the rules on flips and lylo having been taken from UK's experience as a mod there, I'm sure this set up does as well. It also falls well within the "25-33% Scum" Gerenality behind it, because a game with four scum and eight town works well, especially if one of the scum needs the other three dead and vice versa.
Oops, I knew I was missing something. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SomethingWeForgot)
Zakeri,
Zakeri, can you give us a better understanding of your thought processes from the end of Day 3 (where you don't vote either Kerigis or Sodium at deadline) to now?
Please answer this in Twilight or tomorrow.
I actually made a haiku about it immediately after the phase change:
My Hesitation...
Should I shoot, or should I vote?
too late, it's deadline.
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3 scum, 1 survivor and 8 Townies = possibly balanced.
3 scum, 1 SK and 8 Townies = NO.
I will admit that my post-death complaints about Kiro's sanity were misplaced after reading this, but this was such an anti-town game on so many levels. It didn't help that Tenshi and Kerigis-san were practically dead weight. Joint winners of Honorary Scum in my opinion.
MVP is probably Suwako. I had suspicions of Affinity and Serp but I honestly believed his claim when it came out.
UncertainKitten,
Next time you run Mafia
Please make it fairer?
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3 scum, 1 survivor and 8 Townies = possibly balanced.
3 scum, 1 SK and 8 Townies = NO.
This, basically.
But I'm also concerned on why Carthrat was the only one not to have the role revealed on flip.
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I just hate trumpet players for the most part :P.
The kitten knows which
Instruments to insult so
She gets my respect.
3 scum, 1 survivor and 8 Townies = possibly balanced.
3 scum, 1 SK and 8 Townies = NO.
8-3-1 is okay if scum don't have power roles AND Town does, but etc.
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Sorry, Kiro. I kinda felt bad by planning the entire game around leaving you alive because you were wrong about everything and people listened to you. But you gotta do what you gotta do.
For me, this game was a hilarious series of me fucking up at night and getting lucky during the day. I was the one that selected Serpentarius for Night 2 kill (Affinity wanted Zakeri I think) - and then Serpentarius didn't counterclaim against me when I said I had been attacked. Roukanken was killed Night 3 because I thought he was the doc - and then Kiro calls Scum Serpentarius, Zakeri offs Alice and Serpentarius completely breaks down. For the record, I as scum will never take up an "hey we should work together to get rid of town!" offer from a claimed third party because I never know what their win condition is. Serpentarius exuded role-with-victory-priority-ahead-of-scum with his offer so I ignored it completely. (I had a sneaking suspicion at the very end that he was actually the SK but I couldn't argue it because it would have forced me to oust myself as scum.)
On the whole, this game was very enjoyable - if a bit imba in our favor - even with the lack of useful active scum roles. I'm probably saying that because I won, though, so hey.
*
Finally, some mid-Day 4 IRC fun (I was the only one in the channel still alive when this happened):
[22:54] <SuwakoMoriya> Damnit, someone post in Mafia.
[22:54] <SuwakoMoriya> I want this game to end.
[22:54] <bofh> SuwakoMoriya: in the middle of a poast
[22:54] <SuwakoMoriya> bofh: You're dead.
[22:54] <bofh> I have to catch up on a lot of shit.
[22:54] <bofh> oh, modkill?
[22:54] <SuwakoMoriya> Zakeri daykilled you.
[22:54] <bofh> ...
[22:54] <Kerigis> Yeap.
[22:54] <SuwakoMoriya> It's the thought that counts, though.
[22:54] <SuwakoMoriya> We appreciate it.
[22:55] <bofh> Well, I wish I had learned about that BEFORE I spent the past 5 hours trying to catch up.
[22:55] <SuwakoMoriya> You didn't ask!
[22:55] <bofh> o well.
-
Hurray, I finally won a game.
I wanted a role. Instead, I get the goon. =V
Uh, I wasn't expecting for both Kerigis and I to die, but it worked out nicely anyways, seeing as it still brought the game into lylo. Probably better that I had died, really. I made the really lousy Chen & Yukari haiku, although I was going to make:
a e i o u
a e i o u and y
a e i o u
but then that would get me killed horribly.
Last game I'm playing for a while; I wanted to join UFO, but I think I'll take a break.
And yeah, Suwako for MVP. So, who are you anyways? >_>
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EBWOP: bofh is Alice? News to me. >_>
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I can't believe I didn't get lynched today. When I read Serp's post I wanted to shoot myself. It's like hanging your queen in a winning position in chess, but I'm glad that it paradoxically made Serp more scummy for some reasons I disagree with. I guess if you can't get out of a situation, the only thing to do is to go deeper.
And anyways, yes I agree that the modding could have been improved on many levels. I should have known that my posting restriction ended after one day and such. I think we played quite well, but on the other hand, Kiro played very nicely, getting the right suspicions in just when we thought we could have misled him for once especially in LyLO. And serial killer was lol, so yeah, it wasn't balanced even with the psychologist around.
Finally, LyLO should and always be given as info on any day. And role information should be revealed on flip.
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It was. He was a "Metalmixer"
he got the same treatment everyone else did, except no one knew the hell what a mixer was.
I was so overjoyed when I received my role. Never again would I be helpless to shoot down obvscum that only I seemed to see. Then, of course, I decide not to shoot the guy with a guilty on him because I didn't think he was partners with Jan-san. To be fair, I was partially right (Just not about the part of shooting him.)
Be honest Alice... Would you have anything important to add if I hadn't shot you?
Cut: Huh, I guess Suwako answered my last question. Sorry about that.
also Accurate Depiction of Town losing to Mafia (http://bbs.shii.org/yukkuri/post/view/11481)
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Roles were really interesting though, after reading them. Would like to see what Alice thought D=.
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So, who are you anyways? >_>
The true goddess of the Moriya Shrine.
(http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1483/3733453.png)
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Roles were really interesting though, after reading them. Would like to see what Alice thought D=.
Me, too, since up until I had killed him, I was absolutely certain it was "Nothing."
-
UncertainKitten,
Next time you run Mafia
Please make it fairer?
Argue that with my reviewers. SK, 3 scum, 8 townie set ups are rather balanced. There were also two protective roles, the chance of crosskill, AND the fact that you had the potential for four confirmeds.
In fact, this town was titled ENTIRELY in town's favor. Town even had a chance to win when there were TWO TOWNIES LEFT in a final five.
But, give me a case for how it was unbalanced please?
This, basically.
But I'm also concerned on why Carthrat was the only one not to have the role revealed on flip.
His role was revealed as Townie Metalmixer. Granted, this was useless to you, but still
8-3-1 is okay if scum don't have power roles AND Town does, but etc.
Well, the PR giver isn't exactly the most awesome role ever. It was more for the lulz. Now, granted, Suwako's untargetability might have made things bad, but that's arguable.
For the record, I as scum will never take up an "hey we should work together to get rid of town!" offer from a claimed third party because I never know what their win condition is.
Would have been auto win for you guys. SK+scum creates anti town voting block. SK kills other townie (or even one of the scum), scum kills townie. Guess what endgame is?
On the whole, this game was very enjoyable - if a bit imba in our favor - even with the lack of useful active scum roles. I'm probably saying that because I won, though, so hey.
I'm sure you wouldn't be saying this if the prismriver masonry had kicked in, lol.
Uh, I wasn't expecting for both Kerigis and I to die, but it worked out nicely anyways, seeing as it still brought the game into lylo. Probably better that I had died, really. I made the really lousy Chen & Yukari haiku, although I was going to make:
I couldn't make an unbiased call. I probably would have pushed it into town's favor had I not done that. And I asked several people before doing it.
And yeah, Suwako for MVP. So, who are you anyways? >_>
I KNOW!
Finally, LyLO should and always be given as info on any day. And role information should be revealed on flip.
Tell that to MS. Both counts.
Also, there would have been FAR too much set up info revealed by calling lylo. Since, as I said, with 9 alive you were in a worst case scenario lylo. Do you really think it would be fair to either scum party OR the dayvig to reveal there were at least three killing roles, as well as three scum?
I rest my case.
As for role information, I'll admit I should have said JoaT, but I still stand by not giving you everything. You all are too used to a RIDICULOUS plethora of information most mods don't give. I run a game as I normally would and you all complain.
And anyways, yes I agree that the modding could have been improved on many levels. I should have known that my posting restriction ended after one day and such. I think we played quite well, but on the other hand, Kiro played very nicely, getting the right suspicions in just when we thought we could have misled him for once especially in LyLO. And serial killer was lol, so yeah, it wasn't balanced even with the psychologist around.
the psychologist was what unbalanced it.
Please, I'd LOVE to hear an argument about WHY the SK unbalanced the game. Not just "lol, it's unbalanced".
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Oh yeah, for the record, it WAS swingy as fuck. But, swinginess != unbalanced.
It wasn't perfectly balanced, no, but you all are addressing the wrong things.
Like I said, in F5 all teams could win. Can you really say it was unbalanced against town when even outnumbered they could have won?
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Did the SK even KILL anything?
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I pretty much guessed right that Drinking would affect my Sanity. And since I figured ZUN is always drunk while making great games, I guessed Drinking first would make me Sane. But I thought it was an on-off switch rather than a single night effect. So I didn't think far enough ahead that my Sanity might have switched if I didn't continually Drink. I dunno, I think this role is pretty bastardy. I have the potential to be wrong twice before actually figuring it out. And in an 8-3-1 game? There's very little room for error there.
I underestimated that the SK was a single shot and underestimated the numbers set up. In essence, Town WAS pretty screwed going into Day 4. 2-2-1... Actually, how the hell was Town supposed to win in that situation? If we went Affinity, almost certainly Zakeri or I would have died. Then you have 1-1-1. There's no way for Town to win at this junction.
That being said, I think my Day 4 actions were justified. I corrected myself at least on Zakeri although it was mainly Zakeri getting the Vig in and it conflicting with my thoughts on Serp. Serp was looking out for his own survival and withholding information so he was rightfully Scummy.
I actually had a bad feeling about Suwako mainly for him wanting to vote Serp so fast after my revealed result and after the Vig, but I convinced myself he was just overeager. However, the continual agreement and propping me up (he smells like roses) reminded me EXACTLY like Scum Kilga doing the same to me in PC-98 Mafia. Heh. With Serp and Affinity ahead of him though, I couldn't be bothered to worry about it anymore.
Game was swingy, yes. But I think it's unbalanced because it's swingy to the extremes. The Town Psychologist could only unbalance things if he hit one particular target. Shooting the moon pretty much. SK win condition is difficult with 3 Scum imo, but it generally always is.
Just gonna put this post out first.
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Sorry for the insanely early replacement.
Also, of course there's very little game balance for this one - you should've known that heading in when UK said it was role madness~
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I actually had a bad feeling about Suwako mainly for him wanting to vote Serp so fast after my revealed result and after the Vig, but I convinced myself he was just overeager. However, the continual agreement and propping me up (he smells like roses) reminded me EXACTLY like Scum Kilga doing the same to me in PC-98 Mafia.
ho ho ho
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Did the SK even KILL anything?
Rou on N3.
He no killed N1 and N2. No idea WHY, but he did. Might have been a more interesting game if he had. A lot of things messed around with how the game should have gone, but yeah.
I pretty much guessed right that Drinking would affect my Sanity. And since I figured ZUN is always drunk while making great games, I guessed Drinking first would make me Sane. But I thought it was an on-off switch rather than a single night effect. So I didn't think far enough ahead that my Sanity might have switched if I didn't continually Drink. I dunno, I think this role is pretty bastardy. I have the potential to be wrong twice before actually figuring it out. And in an 8-3-1 game? There's very little room for error there.
I agree it was bastardly, but I'm also a proponent of "screw the cop". It's an overpowered role as normal, and coming up with nerfed cop variants is a hobby of mine. When you aren't guaranteed sane, you should always check your result against a players actions. While you can't control other players, it still helps.
I underestimated that the SK was a single shot and underestimated the numbers set up. In essence, Town WAS pretty screwed going into Day 4. 2-2-1... Actually, how the hell was Town supposed to win in that situation? If we went Affinity, almost certainly Zakeri or I would have died. Then you have 1-1-1. There's no way for Town to win at this junction.
Ok, here's the scenario.
You lynch Affinity, after Serp has claimed SK (which is what he SHOULD have done and didn't). Scum kills either Serp or Zak, who cares which.
in 1:1:1, you go to haiku off. Anything else results in townie death, scorched earth/scum win.
Townie produces the best haiku. The losers die, as the rule stipulates one winner. Kinda messed up but yeah. Town could win. It was just contrived.
The other possibility is scum kills Serp leaving 2:1, obv win.
This assumes Serp tries to shoot Suwako and fails. This also assumed that Suwako didn't claim untargettable, but that happened decreasing your chances. However, Serpy would still not want to shoot at all since being left with Suwako is a mafia win.
Either way, it was hard, but possible.
Game was swingy, yes. But I think it's unbalanced because it's swingy to the extremes. The Town Psychologist could only unbalance things if he hit one particular target. Shooting the moon pretty much. SK win condition is difficult with 3 Scum imo, but it generally always is.
Odds are I should have given Serpy untargettable rather than Suwako. If it is unbalanced due to swinginess, who's favor is it in then?
Sorry for the insanely early replacement.
Also, of course there's very little game balance for this one - you should've known that heading in when UK said it was role madness~
I still disagree. But reiterating the point makes me look whiny. I'll wait until there's a full argument for or against my balance.
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If it is unbalanced due to swinginess, who's favor is it in then?
(http://manga.clone-army.org/sidepics/tewi.png)
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If it is unbalanced due to swinginess, who's favor is it in then?
(http://manga.clone-army.org/sidepics/tewi.png)
This is the best argument evar ^-^.
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But, give me a case for how it was unbalanced please?
Given the possiblity of three dead Townies before the start of D2, I don't see why this game could be considered balanced. Likewise scum could be steamrolling Town and lose because SK gets lucky with a few hits. Hell, SK is a horrible role in general because depending on who it hits one side's inevitably going to have an unfair disadvantage.
Plus, of course, the Prismriver masons.
In fact, this town was titled ENTIRELY in town's favor. Town even had a chance to win when there were TWO TOWNIES LEFT in a final five.
Except, not really. Let's look at the options:
- Townie lynched, 1-2-1. SK hits scum for own safety, scum hits either Town or SK. EIther 1-1-0 or 0-1-1, either way Town isn't winning.
- Scum lynched, 2-1-1. THE ONLY CHANCE THE TOWN HAS OF WINNING IS IF SCUM AND SK SHOOT EACH OTHER. This is plain ridiculous and shouldn't even be considered a possibility, since SK hitting Town gets them everything hitting scum would earn and more, and of course there's the possibility he'd run into untargetable Suwako.
If they both hit the same Townie we get 1-1-1 and the best Town has is a tiebreaker situation, except they can't actually vote for SK OR MAFIA because then the other player will jump on and win. >_>
- SK lynched, 2-2-0, instant game over.
As for role information, I'll admit I should have said JoaT, but I still stand by not giving you everything. You all are too used to a RIDICULOUS plethora of information most mods don't give. I run a game as I normally would and you all complain.
Make up a role and we're not untitled to know what it does? When the situation is at its most critical don't warn us, let alone give us extra time to talk about it like other mods do?
In short, any game where a good deal of effort and good play can be outdone by a lack of information and a few lucky night actions is imba.
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As I said in my message to Unesco (UK or Pesco? I dunno who read it), I won't be invlovled with Mafia for a very, very long time... Since I can't get enough time to play in the summer, I probably won't play until the winter break.
Anyway, my plan going into Day 1 was to try and put pressure on my neighbors and flush out any scum. I was sorta onto something with Serp, but I'll admit that I took the first reason to put pressure I could get. If Roukanken had done something else first, I would have been chasing after him.
Not the best game plan... Blame noob-ness and paranoia, I guess. I've been reading bits and pieces here and there to see what's been going, so I'll second (Third? Fourth?) that MVP vote for Suwako. Well played, and it would have been more fun with the role madness if I could have stayed to see it through.
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Oh yeah. Modding mistakes I admit:
The SK to mason thing. *shudder*
Not specifying the time limit on the PR. Sorry :S
Not being clearer on a couple roles that could be easily clarified (yes, I'm admitting this one Rou. I'll try to fix it in the future)
Not being clear on scum being able to no kill (sorry)
Not warning of the potential for bastard roles
Not warning that I hate cops with a burning passion (I forgot not everyone knows that in my meta)
That's all I can think of at the moment, but if I think of more, I'll admit em.
Given the possiblity of three dead Townies before the start of D2, I don't see why this game could be considered balanced. Likewise scum could be steamrolling Town and lose because SK gets lucky with a few hits. Hell, SK is a horrible role in general because depending on who it hits one side's inevitably going to have an unfair disadvantage.
Plus, of course, the Prismriver masons.
Ok, you still have another mislynch. You also forget SK can end up hitting scum.
2 mislynches in a 12 player game is pretty normal. Your technical lylo WAS a very bad situation where the town would HAVE to be playing badly. Also, the SK had to be careful not to help scum too much of scum would reach their wincon first.
Agree on the prismrivers.
SK is more swingy than unbalanced.
- Townie lynched, 1-2-1. SK hits scum for own safety, scum hits either Town or SK. EIther 1-1-0 or 0-1-1, either way Town isn't winning.
- Scum lynched, 2-1-1. THE ONLY CHANCE THE TOWN HAS OF WINNING IS IF SCUM AND SK SHOOT EACH OTHER. This is plain ridiculous and shouldn't even be considered a possibility, since SK hitting Town gets them everything hitting scum would earn and more, and of course there's the possibility he'd run into untargetable Suwako.
Already explained.
And of course town loses if they lynch a townie.
It really wasn't ridiculous that SK and scum would shoot each other. Scum wants to WIN, not tie.
Make up a role and we're not untitled to know what it does? When the situation is at its most critical don't warn us, let alone give us extra time to talk about it like other mods do?
In short, any game where a good deal of effort and good play can be outdone by a lack of information and a few lucky night actions is imba.
I disagree on lack of information. Further, what you describe is swingy.
Further, can you HONESTLY say the town played well? Answer that for me please ^-^.
I'd really like to get an unbiased observer to comment on the balance though.
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Further, can you HONESTLY say the town played well? Answer that for me please ^-^.
Like I said, Tenshi and Kerigis-san really screwed the Town over. Alice was even more of a lurker than usual, and it's a bad sign that the one person I honestly believed the most to be Town was Suwako, hence the MVP.
I'm willing to withdraw my claim that this game was biased against town and just stick with UK's 'it's swingy' comment. Becuase last I checked, a game that fluctuates that rapidly with no warning is at best imba and at worse bastard mod.
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Odds are I should have given Serpy untargettable rather than Suwako. If it is unbalanced due to swinginess, who's favor is it in then?
Scum, unless Neitz had won the random chance guessing game
Also, I personally disagree with "If there's on Maf and One SK, the Maf wins" since it basically makes the game even more nintendo hard for the SK, who already has to deal with the stress of being night hit more than once, and not getting lynched even though town has to consider him a valid target if he says anything about his role other than flat out lying about it. Basically, adding "Oh, and on top of having to get the numbers down to yourself and one other person, that one other person has to be townie or else you'll lose anyway."
Basically, Serp's best play for day two was to roleclaim as serial killer and then convince people to have Neitz survive target him. Surprisingly enough, this would almost definitely have lead to him winning due to the setup.
Cut by Jan-san: wait a minute... GOD DAMN IT. I just now realized that my reason for not targeting Serp was invalid. It was because I had confused Jan-san for Xan and thought Sodium had replace Jan-san instead of Xan. which means the whole time I thought it was Jan-san's role that flipped scum during the Haiku-off. fuck me with a spork, I had been trying to reason all day 4 why SerpScum would target JanScum for the time he did. I really hate inactives now.
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I'd really like to get an unbiased observer to comment on the balance though.
I believe the game setup had a higher chance of being decided by luck, rather than skill or effort.
That said - I do not believe Scum won due to luck.
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Further, can you HONESTLY say the town played well? Answer that for me please ^-^.
Like I said, Tenshi and Kerigis-san really screwed the Town over. Alice was even more of a lurker than usual, and it's a bad sign that the one person I honestly believed the most to be Town was Suwako, hence the MVP.
I'm willing to withdraw my claim that this game was biased against town and just stick with UK's 'it's swingy' comment. Becuase last I checked, a game that fluctuates that rapidly with no warning is at best imba and at worse bastard mod.
The thing is, if it's unbalanced, it distinctly favors a single team. If it's swingy, any team is favored at any time. It's technically unbalanced but the cumulative unbalance is what balances it when done properly. Admittedly, this game failed in that respect. But no one team REALLY had a huge advantage at any time.
Also, my games tend to be semi bastardly at best. It's kinda been something that's expected of me :S.
Also, I personally disagree with "If there's on Maf and One SK, the Maf wins" since it basically makes the game even more nintendo hard for the SK, who already has to deal with the stress of being night hit more than once, and not getting lynched even though town has to consider him a valid target if he says anything about his role other than flat out lying about it. Basically, adding "Oh, and on top of having to get the numbers down to yourself and one other person, that one other person has to be townie or else you'll lose anyway."
Actually, that was only because Suwako couldn't be targetted. If it had been Affinity v. Serpy, it would have been scorched earth/no one wins. It wasn't an automatic Mafia v. SK maf win.
Basically, Serp's best play for day two was to roleclaim as serial killer and then convince people to have Neitz survive target him. Surprisingly enough, this would almost definitely have lead to him winning due to the setup.
Yeah, basically. Hence why I feel bad that I did something that stupid.
Cut by Jan-san: wait a minute... GOD DAMN IT. I just now realized that my reason for not targeting Serp was invalid. It was because I had confused Jan-san for Xan and thought Sodium had replace Jan-san instead of Xan. which means the whole time I thought it was Jan-san's role that flipped scum during the Haiku-off. fuck me with a spork, I had been trying to reason all day 4 why SerpScum would target JanScum for the time he did. I really hate inactives now.
Sorry, I try to keep the front page updated so you can keep track...
I believe the game setup had a higher chance of being decided by luck, rather than skill or effort.
That said - I do not believe Scum won due to luck.
I agree here. Though I think skill is not as minimal as you think. I freely admit this was more a night game than a day game. Most role madness games are.
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I'm really not eager to argue this all the way into the night...
Hey, I thought I played the Cop ok. The thing that complicated it for me was me Drinking first because I couldn't resist doing so being a real life alcoholic (I had a beer after I sent in that Night 1 action to boot). I reasoned well enough that I could believe the Innocent Alice result. I was almost guaranteed to make a mistake, but the problem was that the mistake came in LYLO.
Anyways, a 1-1-1 haiku-off... as much fun as that would be, it's the mod kinda deciding the game right there which is bullshit imo. None of the losers might be satisfied with such a result especially if the haikus are reasonably close in quality.
Actually, I don't think the 1-shot SK is imbalanced. I just completely underestimated the fact we'd be in a 33% anti-Town game. And yea, if Serp claimed SK, I probably would have tied that in with Nietz claim and gone with the Affinity lynch. I just thought he was Scum trying to hide behind a Survivor's mask. Although we still might have screwed ourselves in Day 5. Yea..... I'm tempted to say Town could have won this game. But it's still pretty difficult conditions.
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I'm really not eager to argue this all the way into the night...
Hey, I thought I played the Cop ok. The thing that complicated it for me was me Drinking first because I couldn't resist doing so being a real life alcoholic (I had a beer after I sent in that Night 1 action to boot). I reasoned well enough that I could believe the Innocent Alice result. I was almost guaranteed to make a mistake, but the problem was that the mistake came in LYLO.
Anyways, a 1-1-1 haiku-off... as much fun as that would be, it's the mod kinda deciding the game right there which is bullshit imo. None of the losers might be satisfied with such a result especially if the haikus are reasonably close in quality.
Actually, I don't think the 1-shot SK is imbalanced. I just completely underestimated the fact we'd be in a 33% anti-Town game. And yea, if Serp claimed SK, I probably would have tied that in with Nietz claim and gone with the Affinity lynch. I just thought he was Scum trying to hide behind a Survivor's mask. Although we still might have screwed ourselves in Day 5. Yea..... I'm tempted to say Town could have won this game. But it's still pretty difficult conditions.
To the first, yes, you played cop well. I was impressed to be honest. Many would not have done as well. I do want to bring that role back but make it slightly more obvious what you need to do without giving it away, I just don't know how.
And yes, a 1-1-1 haiku off WOULD be lame to an extent. But, I've had situations like that happen before (tie in lylo), and I've basically judged the haiku based on amusingness and not alignment. I haven't had anyone complain about it either. So, I don't worry so much about it.
Serp wasn't one shot. Though, I'm thinking that making him one shot and giving him complete bulletproof might make it more interesting.
Well, it was difficult on D4. D3 and D2, not so much.
EDIT: Oh yeah, about the haiku being close in quality. Odds are I'd call in a third party or two.
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Actually, yeah. I fucked up. Serp and Affinity were equal in my eyes and thus, it shouldn't have mattered if I went for Affinity instead. I didn't consider the possible Survivor/SK angle enough and stubbornly went after Serp most likely because of my investigative result. Serp hinted at me for a while to consider this, but I turned a blind eye to it.
Brb, I'm fixing myself a HARD drink right now.
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Actually, yeah. I fucked up. Serp and Affinity were equal in my eyes and thus, it shouldn't have mattered if I went for Affinity instead. I didn't consider the possible Survivor/SK angle enough and stubbornly went after Serp most likely because of my investigative result. Serp hinted at me for a while to consider this, but I turned a blind eye to it.
Brb, I'm fixing myself a HARD drink right now.
To be honest, Serpy claiming to be a survivor that stole the music was BEYOND retarded. No offense but what the hell was that about?
And aww...I didn't mean to drive you to drinking Kiro :(.
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Kiro: Still acting like ZUN after the game is over. A truly dedicated player. =3
Oh yeah, I was tempted to point out how Kiro was "still alive" on Day 3, but that would've been stupid.
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Rolling greens of spring
Echo in my sullen heart.
Kill them both; they suck.
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Swinginess makes the game unbalanced by definition. It's like a seesaw where one side has a huge rock, and the other side has many little rocks, and for each lynch, you remove a rock. >_>
I'm not sure what to think about the sudden death haiku doublekill...
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His role was revealed as Townie Metalmixer. Granted, this was useless to you, but still
The problem here was that Metalmixer was his flavor descriptor, everyone else that flipped had an alignment, flavor and role one, even the Vanilla. It ended up as being misleading, even though the SK not killing night 1 helped it.
Yes, the game could have swung any way, but I still consider it unbalanced because the probability of it swinging against Town was a lot higher. Granted, Town didn't play any good, but Scum didn't have to play well either to secure the victory.
I'm not particularly annoyed though, since I was expecting some sort of crazy setup anyway.
Flavor was great too, I was just disappointed by how the Haiku Duel turned out (I mean, geez, even the bystanders were all better than the contestants.)
Brb, I'm fixing myself a HARD drink right now.
(*ﾟ▽ﾟ)つ凵 Cheers!
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@UK: Ahh, I understand what you mean now. And no, the whole Jan-san != Sodium thing was entirely my fault, and I'm basically kicking myself now because I had no reason not to kill Serp, which would have instead lead to a 3:2 game which was still much more salvageable than the 2:2:1 could be.
@Kiro: Wow, I never knew that about you (the drinking thing). I personally have to force myself to drink half a glass of wine much less touching beer or such.
Serp wasn't one shot. Though, I'm thinking that making him one shot and giving him complete bulletproof might make it more interesting.
I agree.
Brb, I'm fixing myself a HARD drink right now.
Speaking of which, I'm gonna grab myself a SOFT (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IncrediblyLamePun) drink
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EDIT FOR ROU: Why did you create a role with so many powers unknown to the role-bearer?
i love you rou
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Swinginess makes the game unbalanced by definition. It's like a seesaw where one side has a huge rock, and the other side has many little rocks, and for each lynch, you remove a rock. >_>
I'm not sure what to think about the sudden death haiku doublekill...
I wasn't entirely happy with it myself but I think it actually gave town a slight edge.
But, Pesco told me to, Edible told me to, a few others told me to...it seemed just as sound as any other solution.
Yes, the game could have swung any way, but I still consider it unbalanced because the probability of it swinging against Town was a lot higher. Granted, Town didn't play any good, but Scum didn't have to play well either to secure the victory.
I disagree. Scum needed to be on it's toes to avoid a vig, a JoaT, and an SK depending on the mood.
I'm not particularly annoyed though, since I was expecting some sort of crazy setup anyway.
Flavor was great too, I was just disappointed by how the Haiku Duel turned out (I mean, geez, even the bystanders were all better than the contestants.)
Yeah...anyone here that has watched Soul Eater should know I got that one face you make when you meet Excalibur.
@UK: Ahh, I understand what you mean now. And no, the whole Jan-san != Sodium thing was entirely my fault, and I'm basically kicking myself now because I had no reason not to kill Serp, which would have instead lead to a 3:2 game which was still much more salvageable than the 2:2:1 could be.
Yep, a serp kill basically would have guaranteed a town win. Kiro, you, and Alice were practically confirmed.
See? Swingy ^-^.
Speaking of which, I'm gonna grab myself a SOFT drink
And even this is superior to those haiku :P.
What was the reason behind having a huge number of power power Townie power power role.
Role madness. I tend to do set ups like that. This one though is probably the worst/most swingy I've done.
I'll have to play with SK theory a little more.
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Cut by Jan-san: wait a minute... GOD DAMN IT. I just now realized that my reason for not targeting Serp was invalid. It was because I had confused Jan-san for Xan and thought Sodium had replace Jan-san instead of Xan. which means the whole time I thought it was Jan-san's role that flipped scum during the Haiku-off. fuck me with a spork, I had been trying to reason all day 4 why SerpScum would target JanScum for the time he did. I really hate inactives now.
Yeah, that inactivity was pretty bad, but it cost town the game?
BRB Seppuku. Like I said, I'll stay away from Mafia for a good long time.
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(*ﾟ▽ﾟ)つ凵 Cheers!
You rock! I'm feeling better already!
One more thing about the Cop role. Action wise, I played it the worst way possible, not being able to confirm anything until Day 3. That's pretty dastardly in a game like this where we might be in LYLO by then. You should have made it so you can Drink and Investigate at the same time like I had asked in my PM during Night 1.
Zakeri: Ah, I didn't realize you had that kind of a confusion with Jan-san != Sodium. *shrug* Sub optimal performance by both of us in Day 4.
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(*ﾟ▽ﾟ)つ凵 Cheers!
You rock! I'm feeling better already!
One more thing about the Cop role. Action wise, I played it the worst way possible, not being able to confirm anything until Day 3. That's pretty dastardly in a game like this where we might be in LYLO by then. You should have made it so you can Drink and Investigate at the same time like I had asked in my PM during Night 1.
Zakeri: Ah, I didn't realize you had that kind of a confusion with Jan-san != Sodium. *shrug* Sub optimal performance by both of us in Day 4.
If I did that, all players would do that. Using more than one action is always optimal. Therefore, it would have been a sane cop. I see sane cops as broken. So, no go. Now, what I should have done is made it more explicit that your buzz from drinking wears off after one night phase. That would probably have made the proper actions obvious.
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Actually, yeah. I fucked up. Serp and Affinity were equal in my eyes and thus, it shouldn't have mattered if I went for Affinity instead. I didn't consider the possible Survivor/SK angle enough and stubbornly went after Serp most likely because of my investigative result. Serp hinted at me for a while to consider this, but I turned a blind eye to it.
Aha, I knew I didn't mention that I'd be up for an Affinity lynch for a reason.
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I disagree. Scum needed to be on it's toes to avoid a vig, a JoaT, and an SK depending on the mood.
Those could hit Town as well, and statistically they would more likely do. That was what I meant about the game swinging more easily against Town.
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Yep, a serp kill basically would have guaranteed a town win. Kiro, you, and Alice were practically confirmed.
Thanks. That's really reassuring :V I'm certain I'll be able to recover from this faster than I did from my last game.
In any case, I guess it really is a combination of town failing and scum being awesome that decided this game in scum's favor, even in spite of being swingy.
If I did that, all players would do that. Using more than one action is always optimal. Therefore, it would have been a sane cop. I see sane cops as broken. So, no go. Now, what I should have done is made it more explicit that your buzz from drinking wears off after one night phase. That would probably have made the proper actions obvious.
Yeah, the action would be to never drink and always assume you're insane cop. They're just as broken as sane cops, with the possible exception that scum might get a free mislynch out of it. There's really no good way to depower a cop outside of admiting to Bastardmoddery or limiting the number of chance or the times at when they can investigate.
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I disagree. Scum needed to be on it's toes to avoid a vig, a JoaT, and an SK depending on the mood.
Those could hit Town as well, and statistically they would more likely do. That was what I meant of the game swinging more easily against Town.
Actually, the JoaT kill could NOT have hit town. It either did nothing or hit scum guaranteed. The vig I grant. Of course, as far as NK's go there was a jailkeeper who had a fair chance of preventing a kill.
There was also one sane investigation, a watch/roleblock (which could also prevent kills), a semi-global roleblock, a self protect...just...a lot of potential protections. Of course, it WAS only spread between 2 roles so yeah.
Thanks. That's really reassuring :V I'm certain I'll be able to recover from this faster than I did from my last game.
Sorry :(. I don't want you to feel bad. It was an odd game. I can say stuff since I knew the set up, but from a player PoV it was a lot harder.
In any case, I guess it really is a combination of town failing and scum being awesome that decided this game in scum's favor, even in spite of being swingy.
Yep.
Yeah, the action would be to never drink and always assume you're insane cop. They're just as broken as sane cops, with the possible exception that scum might get a free mislynch out of it. There's really no good way to depower a cop outside of admiting to Bastardmoddery or limiting the number of chance or the times at when they can investigate.
Ooh, clever, you broke my role. I'll have to fix that.
Time to reach into the bastardly bag and make sober investigations paranoid if I use this role again ^-^. That'd make sense too :P.
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EBWOP 2: who the fuck gave me this sig
~
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So I heard Edible likes messing with people. =V
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So I heard Edible likes messing with people. =V
That asshole was supposed to be Scum. Get your pansy ass into the next game.
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That asshole was supposed to be Scum. Get your pansy ass into the next game.
I do feel like a tool for asking to be replaced before the game even started; let me offer apologies all around. I received an email right after confirming that a number of my coworkers would be AWOL for the coming weeks, thus massively increasing my workload.
Work will continue kicking my ass for a different reasons over the coming month, but it's manageable enough for Mafia. I already /inned for Zakeri's game.
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You lynch Affinity, after Serp has claimed SK (which is what he SHOULD have done and didn't)
Eh? Why should I have claimed SK? From all the cries of "3 scum + 1 SK is imba!", I'm sure that Kiro and others would've assumed that I was either lying scum, or or that there was only one other scum, so they could afford to lynch me. Not to mention the fact that a Survivor can win with the Town, but a Serial Killer must win against the Town. I'd be advertising that my win condition was incompatable with Town anyway, so I'd be lynched... Not to mention that Zakeri probably would've vigged me instead. The best thing I could do was try and invalidate Kiro's cop result.
Also, the SK had to be careful not to help scum too much of scum would reach their wincon first.
This is why I held back on my kills so much. I was more worried about scum overwhelming us than I was of Town finishing off the scum too early. I wouldn't have been able to end the game in less than four days, in any case, so there was no reason for me to kill more often than I did. The only reason I attacked Roukanken N3 was that he had shown way too much suspicion of me and I had wanted to go into D4 as clean as I could without a vote on Suwako. So much for that.
I think I played D4 as well as I possibly could have. Anything else I could've done would've resulted in a lynch of me, so making a circus out of it was my best option. If Town had been a little less confident of their cop result (and rightfully so), I could've won. Regarding game balance, it was swingy as heck, but I don't think it was really imbalanced going in. By D4, Town's only hope was for Zakeri to vig a non-Town, but the Town as a whole had to play pretty poorly to get to that point in the first place.
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Serp, from my point of view, I thought you were Scum just trying to avoid a lynch. That was because you claimed Survivor which gives the impression that you don't want to die which is Scummy when I had a Guilty on you.
First, I made the mistake of not thinking far enough ahead that you could be a SK as per Nietz's roleclaim. Secondly, I didn't heed that kind of warning or your statements and blindly followed my now flawed investigation result.
But... if you claimed SK, first off, while it's obviously a stigma to us Townies, we almost certainly would know you wouldn't be lying about that. I don't play with SK/Survivor much, but I know that if you did that, Town's priority would be to at least lynch Scum first (I probably would have assumed there's only one left, but would have to chance that there could have been 2), then you because you're only solitary. Hell, Scum might off you for us so in the meanwhile, we'd just go for them. Which is what you would have wanted anyways. An unlikely alliance that never came forward. I'm positive I would have at least considered everything you said rather than mostly blindly passing it over (hey, I did read it a little). However, if I think it through more, if it was Zakeri/me, Suwako, and you left in Day 5, I might have reasonably been convinced Suwako was still Town and have blindly lynched you giving Scum a Day 5 win rather than a Day 4 win. Tough for both of us in the end.
That's pretty much why UK is saying theory wise, you should just claim SK truthfully in this case and use the Town's numbers to help thin out the Scum still existing.
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Regarding the SK claim. It really was your only chance to win though. Yes, you were likely to lose anyway, but honestly, with an SK claim you could point out that you HAD to work with town.
You don't want scorched earth, so you wouldn't want that scum left alive.
I had the full scenario planned out using player knowledge, and it worked for you...I just forgot the specifics. It was also mildly contrived though, not quite as much as town though.
That's pretty much why UK is saying theory wise, you should just claim SK truthfully in this case and use the Town's numbers to help thin out the Scum still existing.
Thank you Kiro. This is exactly the scenario I thought of.
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you could have claimed miller. Kiro's investigation on you wasn't even right anyway.
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So, if I had claimed SK, then Town and Scum would basically end up playing a game of Chicken (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_(game)) over who would want to take me out. That could've worked out in my favor, I suppose. I don't think my odds would've been any better with that strategy, though I'll have to keep that sort of thing in mind in future games. This is my first time with a solo victory condition role (and it was quite enjoyable, by the way).
you could have claimed miller. Kiro's investigation on you wasn't even right anyway.
Oh, yeah, I had considered this as well. My final reason for deciding against it was that claiming Miller would be exactly the sort of thing scum would do in LyLo.
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Yea, SK is kinda the shit-out-of-luck role. Quite a few things not in your control have to work in your favor as you head into LYLO. And technically they did. But it didn't go through. A bit of inexperience on both our parts although it still could have worked out to a haiku duel off which looked like your only hope as well. I don't think you can ask for much more than that, especially when you are beholden to nobody but yourself.
I will say good game though. If Suwako is indeed Kilga, I got taken advantage of again. All I can do is suck it up and play the next game. BRING IT!!!
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Serp:
...So then you claimed SURVIVOR, which obviously scum wouldn't claim either. >_>
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Yea, SK is kinda the shit-out-of-luck role. Quite a few things not in your control have to work in your favor as you head into LYLO. And technically they did. But it didn't go through. A bit of inexperience on both our parts although it still could have worked out to a haiku duel off which looked like your only hope as well. I don't think you can ask for much more than that, especially when you are beholden to nobody but yourself.
Well, it makes sense for SK to be the "hardest" victory condition to achieve. In games with 8 Town, 3 Scum, and 1 SK, if it were completely "fair," with everyone having an equal chance at victory before the roles get handed out, the SK condition should have a one-in-twelve chance of victory, not a one-in-three chance.
If I were modding, I would've said that if the last two left alive were NK-immune Scum and the Serial Killer, then that should be a Serial Killer win, but it never got to that point in the first place so the point is moot.
Serp:
...So then you claimed SURVIVOR, which obviously scum wouldn't claim either. >_>
Yeah, yeah, the WIFOM treadmill is a deadly exercise. :P
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If it is unbalanced due to swinginess, who's favor is it in then?
(http://manga.clone-army.org/sidepics/tewi.png)
<3 saved
I'd really like to get an unbiased observer to comment on the balance though.
I believe the game setup had a higher chance of being decided by luck, rather than skill or effort.
That said - I do not believe Scum won due to luck.
I don't think too much skill was needed either.
@Serp: I was in a similar situation as SK before on MS. The difference was that I was BP-SK and the whole game, I had been hitting protected players or getting RB'd. Once I was sure LyLo was in, I claimed disarned-SK (since the NK patterns fit) and took town for a ride. Dwarf Fortress Mafia run by Claus if you want to look.
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The OP lacks this....
(http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/8805/middlefinger5.jpg) (http://img216.imageshack.us/i/middlefinger5.jpg/)
And it was Sposalizio/Draychn or whatever his name is that thought I was Zakeri :X