Interested in why Pesco took 12 hours to decide that Donut was acting jumpy. Holding my vote.
Also, what's Niet'z (see what I did there?) definition of 'high-profile'?
So who would you place a serious vote on if I hadn't made Donut my serious vote?Probably Nietz, for his strange terming of 'high-profile'. I don't see what Donut's doing that's so weird, all he did was make a joke about Yuyuko Dolls. >_>
Feel free to start playing the real game of mafia any time before the deadline you know.
By high-profile I meant (1) (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg41997#msg41997) long and overtly exaggerated joke post and (2) (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg42036#msg42036) ignores NF's response and Yuyuko Doll's pesco, openly claiming for attention.
Not much of a case, sure. But if he wants to become a bandwagon, I'm happy to oblige right now.
So you want to bandwagon donut, for a reason that you admit is weak?
What? That doesn't make any sense at all.
... I really want to just shout BANTWAGON right now.
RVS could have given us something more interesting, like a L-2 on me perhaps.
##Unvote Nuclear Fusion
##Vote Carthrat
When you switched to Zakeri, there's a case of Donut trying too hard on Nuclear Fusion by NF, Pesco shenanigans, Donut voting Pesco, then Zakeri voting Pesco. What makes Zakeri's comments stand out to you more than Donut's, Pesco's, or Nuclear Fusion's?
So Pesco, I hear you want to end the RVS stage right away, huh? I've been watching these games in the past, and I don't see how what I've been doing is anything out of the ordinary. If anything, YOU'RE more suspicious for wanting to end the RVS so quickly. However, if you were scum that'd be too obvious, even for you...I'd say I'm withholding my vote, but you already have my vote, so....Okay, what exactly is this? First you get mad at him for trying to end RVS (which we're going to have to do anyway, and by this point everyone had already made a jokevote), then you say that it's too suspicious to be a scum tell?
So Pesco, I hear you want to end the RVS stage right away, huh? I've been watching these games in the past, and I don't see how what I've been doing is anything out of the ordinary. If anything, YOU'RE more suspicious for wanting to end the RVS so quickly. However, if you were scum that'd be too obvious, even for you...I'd say I'm withholding my vote, but you already have my vote, so. :V
When you switched to Zakeri, there's a case of Donut trying too hard on Nuclear Fusion by NF, Pesco shenanigans, Donut voting Pesco, then Zakeri voting Pesco. What makes Zakeri's comments stand out to you more than Donut's, Pesco's, or Nuclear Fusion's?
I'll leave the 'why didn't Donut respond to NF?' question to the man himself. Donut, if you would?
...Okay, what exactly is this? First you get mad at him for trying to end RVS (which we're going to have to do anyway, and by this point everyone had already made a jokevote), then you say that it's too suspicious to be a scum tell?
Donut: Carthrat had first voted Roukan. You could call that his RVS vote. His second vote on Zakeri gives a serious enough reason for me to consider it a serious vote and that's where my line of questioning is going.
Pesco explicitly stated his vote was serious business (#41), but you can also argue Carthrat's vote (#37) indirectly was the same thing. Are you going to disagree with me on this point?
I wasn't getting so much angry as pointing out that his vote on me was very weak in a very bad way.Yes, last I checked this was a very bad thing. Why so wiling to ignore it?
*checks* Oh, that? Didn't seem that serious to me, so I forgot about it. Though Nuclear Fusion seems to be new to the "time limit" thing, so maybe he doesn't know how the RVS works here.
Never said it was a good point, said it was acceptable.It isn't a defense, it's a deflection. You attacked him and he attacked you back, which makes him innocent? I don't get it.
So you want to bandwagon donut, for a reason that you admit is weak?The first bandwagon usually is for a weak reason. My point is that by attracting attention he can get a few votes and just wait until another, more "serious" bandwagon comes and everyone forgets about him.
What? That doesn't make any sense at all.
... I really want to just shout BANTWAGON right now.
Nietz: It was still the RVS, to be honest, unless NF thought his case against Donut was genuine. I read his post as false severity, intended to be a joke, so it was just a random vote to me. So he put a little flair into it - how is that drawing attention?False severity was also how I first read his post, and that by itself would be fine. But just after that he went for pesco, which is a sure way to get attention. Someone taking their joke votes a little too far and becoming the first bandwagon, and later it just dissolving as people look for a more serious suspect is an all too common pattern here. And I figure scum might as well use it to their advantage.
So you want to bandwagon donut, for a reason that you admit is weak?
What? That doesn't make any sense at all.
... I really want to just shout BANTWAGON right now.
I'm not seeing any scummy intent in his posts.Then why the hell did you give him a serious business vote?
False severity was also how I first read his post, and that by itself would be fine. But just after that he went for pesco, which is a sure way to get attention. Someone taking their joke votes a little too far and becoming the first bandwagon, and later it just dissolving as people look for a more serious suspect is an all too common pattern here. And I figure scum might as well use it to their advantage.Through this logic you may as well accuse Pesco as well for giving Donut an opening to attract attention for the first bandwagon.
Then why the hell did you give him a serious business vote?To hide that he is complete clueless? Just a guess.
@Nuclear FusionQuoteSo you want to bandwagon donut, for a reason that you admit is weak?
What? That doesn't make any sense at all.
... I really want to just shout BANTWAGON right now.
Firstly, why doesn't it make sense? Weak reasons are better than none this early in the game, and it is alright to pursue something based on these.
Secondly, why didn't you vote Nietz for it? When you had no serious votes beforehand.
##Unvote
##Vote: Nuclear Fusion
---
pesco seems to me to be avoiding the questions thrown at him.
Rouk - man, I almost forget him somehow. I had to check the player list like 4 times before I realized who I was missing :/ Needs more reading also.;_;
So Pesco, I hear you want to end the RVS stage right away, huh? I've been watching these games in the past, and I don't see how what I've been doing is anything out of the ordinary. If anything, YOU'RE more suspicious for wanting to end the RVS so quickly. However, if you were scum that'd be too obvious, even for you...I'd say I'm withholding my vote, but you already have my vote, so. :V
As for the whole issue of why I'm "suspicious" about Pesco wanting to end the RVS is that isn't that what scum wants? To end the phase to start throwing serious accusations around? But like I said, Pesco seems to like doing this regardless of his alignment, so I didn't really put much pressure on the issue.
As for the whole issue of why I'm "suspicious" about Pesco wanting to end the RVS is that isn't that what scum wants? To end the phase to start throwing serious accusations around? But like I said, Pesco seems to like doing this regardless of his alignment, so I didn't really put much pressure on the issue.
:hfive:
Awesome, thanks for posting Serp.
EBWOP on my long post: Serp has shifted to leaning town based on his big post. There's too much effort in their for me to think of him as scum.
HEY DORIAN! It's not a bandwagon vote if I'm the first one voting him for reasons unrelated to a bandwagon (as in RVS). I can complain about a bandwagon when I don't approve of the bandwagon, despite my vote being on the bandwagoned person.Indeed I missd the fakt that it was still in RVS, how can that happen?
To hide that he is complete clueless? Just a guess.It seems that I was more about myself than about Pesco.
Zakeri - Why does it feel like you haven't said anything useful? Requires a re-read.
Zakeri unvoted pesco and made a big deal of revoting him in the same post. Seemed more try-hardy than anything else to date,
Donut's votes were all jokevotes and I'd just disregarded them. I think that's all Pesco had really done, too. They barely registered, frankly.So then Joke voting multiple times is only okay if it's different people every time?
Except probably Fusion, who gives town credit based on a large post without even addressing the content. For one thing, big posts mean about as much for alignment as what colour someone's name is (especially in MotK mafia, but I digress.) For another, that's really lazy.
Nor am I happy with him handicapping his own bandwagon and storming at Neitz for being willing to vote for a weak reason- it's day one many reasons are weak, they're still the only ones. Pixelbitching over this and not unvoting immediately upon what seems to be strong bandwagon suspicion is extremely troubling.
I'm not entirely comfortable with him prodding Dorian, either. The guy is clearly clueless, and I already think lynching him is always going to be a crapshoot. It's an easy thing to post that doesn't require thinking, or even really reading.
##Unvote, ##Vote: NuclearFusion yeah, this is starting to look pretty bad.
Through this logic you may as well accuse Pesco as well for giving Donut an opening to attract attention for the first bandwagon.Pesco self-vigging hardly got my attention. Donut's following "You are stealing my gig! Die!" post definitely did. Especially because he did it in lieu of actually answering NF.
As for why I don't think it makes sense - bandwagons are usually for the sake of forcing somebody into a claim OR because it's DATBF/RVS. Bandwagons happen almost entirely within the first day, and are almost always pointless/bad for town. Weak reason does not equal bandwagon. Weak reason equals one of two things: 1) a vote early in the game. 2) scum who can't think of anything good.I see were you are coming but, in a general manner, I don't think bandwagons are bad or pointless. Especially on Day 1 - when we have little to work on unless scum makes a mistake - because post-wagon analysis usually gives more interesting results for the following days.
Oh hey, cool. You are Dorian's scum buddy. Sweet, that's two of three on day one.Baseless Accusations: 1
I don't move my vote because it freaking doesn't matter.You have this backwards. Your vote doesn't matter because you don't freaking move it. Your vote is potentially 16.7% responsible for the death of any one person. If you leave that on a person that you are defending from another 16.7%, you are effectively trying to hold someone else accountable for something that you are doing to an equal amount. This makes you a hypocrite.
I left my vote there because it was irrelevant. I don't need to justify a vote which is irrelevant.The point of this game is to actively hunt for scum, not wait for them to mess up on their own. It's the job of the town and their votes to put pressure on the mafia and force them to mess up in that way.
It is, kinda. My suspicions are multifaceted and stem from Pesco's lightning-rod like nature. My suspicions are also rapidly become trivilialized as the day progresses.I'll accept this.
Also, when are you people going to get it into your head. I never changed my mind about my vote.This actually is one of the reasons why your stance on the Donut wagon was so out of place. You vote Donut in the Random Voting Stage, then when Neitz votes, you say it's for weak reasoning, and you say he's bandwagoning. Then, you don't bother to change your vote from Donut. Unless you can prove that your Reason for voting Donut was better than Neitz's reason, and that Neitz wasn't using a similar reason, then you are hereby declared Voting differently from Townie intent and therefore not townie.
I tend to let people who put effort go by because even in the event that they are mafia,
Then why the hell did you give him a serious business vote?
Then why the hell did you give him a serious business vote?To hide that he is complete clueless? Just a guess.
Also, I can think something is weak without thinking it is scummy. I never said I thought Neitz was scum, I said I thought his reasons for the bandwagon were weak. He explained himself, and I have no problems with his explanation at this point and time.
As for why I don't think it makes sense - bandwagons are usually for the sake of forcing somebody into a claim OR because it's DATBF/RVS. Bandwagons happen almost entirely within the first day, and are almost always pointless/bad for town. Weak reason does not equal bandwagon. Weak reason equals one of two things: 1) a vote early in the game. 2) scum who can't think of anything good.
HEY DORIAN! It's not a bandwagon vote if I'm the first one voting him for reasons unrelated to a bandwagon (as in RVS). I can complain about a bandwagon when I don't approve of the bandwagon, despite my vote being on the bandwagoned person.
Current Suspicions -
Donut - Mediocre feel on him, not getting anything one way or the other, but it sure is funny to watch him.
Pesco - I need to read his Donut responses again. Those could easily influence my feelings about him. Currently on Neutral.
Dorian - His heart seems in the right place, but his posts are lacking. How many posts have you made, anyway? Two? Three? And I don't think there's been much information from them either (as in he is being lazy and said so himself). Leaning scum on him.
Neitz - See earlier in this post. Leaning town.
Zakeri - Why does it feel like you haven't said anything useful? Requires a re-read.
Affinity - Are you normally an aggressive player? Do you feel the need to throw a vote around every post? Please respond to this.
Serpentarius - Has this guy posted even? Another I don't feel has said enough.
Cart and Kiro - I'm lumping you guys together. Enjoy that. Needs more reading of them.
Rouk - man, I almost forget him somehow. I had to check the player list like 4 times before I realized who I was missing :/ Needs more reading also.
So the only person I've got any feelings on is... Dorian, huh.
Nietz's elaboration on Donut's scumminess here (https://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg42377#msg42377) seems solid.
:hfive:
Awesome, thanks for posting Serp.
EBWOP on my long post: Serp has shifted to leaning town based on his big post. There's too much effort in their for me to think of him as scum.
Except probably Fusion, who gives town credit based on a large post without even addressing the content. For one thing, big posts mean about as much for alignment as what colour someone's name is (especially in MotK mafia, but I digress.) For another, that's really lazy.
Nor am I happy with him handicapping his own bandwagon and storming at Neitz for being willing to vote for a weak reason- it's day one many reasons are weak, they're still the only ones. Pixelbitching over this and not unvoting immediately upon what seems to be strong bandwagon suspicion is extremely troubling.
I'm not entirely comfortable with him prodding Dorian, either. The guy is clearly clueless, and I already think lynching him is always going to be a crapshoot. It's an easy thing to post that doesn't require thinking, or even really reading.
As for Serp's long post - there was a double move going on there, but thanks to you and donut, it's been shattered. Congrats, guys. Yes, I'm fully aware of long posts not necessarily being full of content (for what it's worth, I feel serp's post was full of content). The fact is if you slap scum on the back and make them feel safe, you lure them into a false sense of security. But thanks to you guys, that's just not going to work with Serp.
...
And here we go addressing Serp again - Serp put effort into his posts... much like I'm seeing you doing. I tend to let people who put effort go by because even in the event that they are mafia, they are still supplying the town with information. And the town needs information. I'd rather lynch lurking scum then the ones who are helping the town, even if they are trying to misdirect the town.
Pesco
Scummy:
-Insults Donut
-Insults Roukanken
-Deflects questions aimed towards him
-unvotes Donut when Donut gives poor reasoning to attack him
-Covers above point up with IIoA, saying he doesn't feel Donut is scum
General Feeling - ##Vote: Pesco
Nuclear Fusion
Scummy:
-Trying to attack a wagon that his vote is on
-Defends his vote as not being a part of the wagon
-Continues defending his vote instead of explaining why he voted and why it's different from the bandwagon
-Admits he's neutral on Pesco Vs. Donut and still doesn't change his vote
-Makes a General thoughts on everyone list without doing very much analysis on anyone. His reasons for voting Dorian seem forced when he writes them, and it seems like an afterthought when he places the vote.
-Too quick to praise Serpentarius.
General Thoughts - wow, what a crime list. I also didn't catch any town tells.
My basic thoughts right now is that Donut seems like an easy target, while Pesco is acting like Scum-Pesco and Nuclear is acting like a mafioso that accidentally got in the way of and is trying to get out of the way of people's suspicions. I would vote for either Pesco or Nuke.
pesco's reaction to donuts kinda weirds me out. He attacks you with some bad reasoning and your reaction is... unvote him and vote Kiro?
One more time!
Voted donut in the RVS.
Didn't approve of the bandwagon.
Didn't change my vote cause I didn't see the relevance of changing it.
Admitted that if somebody had put another vote on donut, I'd have unvoted.
And yes, I am fully aware of how the Serp thing would have worked. I'm willing to take the risks involved in gambits. This is how I play.
Furthermore - I believe I -am- actively hunting scum a lot more than other people. Maybe it's because I've been sitting here refreshing the page for the last three hours. Throwing votes around will not actively catch scum. Getting these long posts around people will catch scum. Hence I like the fact that people are posting like this. It is good for town.
Also - ya, baseless accusations are fun. I'm playing on a different style than most of you, and I'll be damned if I change what I know works. Most of that accusation stemmed from the random defense of Dorian which I feel is unwarranted.
As for Serp's long post - there was a double move going on there, but thanks to you and donut, it's been shattered. Congrats, guys. Yes, I'm fully aware of long posts not necessarily being full of content (for what it's worth, I feel serp's post was full of content). The fact is if you slap scum on the back and make them feel safe, you lure them into a false sense of security. But thanks to you guys, that's just not going to work with Serp.
Which parts were you agreeing with?
Quote from: Nuclear FusionI tend to let people who put effort go by because even in the event that they are mafia,
...
Wut.
##Vote Nuclear Fusion
I'm a little light on other reasons, but this is something that really caught my attention. This whole thing you said just rings WTF to me. You're basically not going to pursue someone who puts any effort into their posts. What if they make a fatal slip-up, which is more likely in a long post? Wouldn't you rather lynch a suspicious person so that their information holds some hard value? I don't care what play style you have, this just screams anti-town to me.
As for the whole issue of why I'm "suspicious" about Pesco wanting to end the RVS is that isn't that what scum wants? To end the phase to start throwing serious accusations around? But like I said, Pesco seems to like doing this regardless of his alignment, so I didn't really put much pressure on the issue.Firstly, I don't understand the accusation, since the sooner the Town gets out of RVS the more time they have to make real cases. Secondly, saying 'this is scummy, but he's doing it either way so I'll ignore it' is a horrendous case of meta. Would you be saying this if it was, say, Carthrat trying to rush you out of the RVS?
Oh hey, cool. You are Dorian's scum buddy. Sweet, that's two of three on day one.*facepalm*
As for Serp's long post - there was a double move going on there, but thanks to you and donut, it's been shattered. Congrats, guys. Yes, I'm fully aware of long posts not necessarily being full of content (for what it's worth, I feel serp's post was full of content). The fact is if you slap scum on the back and make them feel safe, you lure them into a false sense of security. But thanks to you guys, that's just not going to work with Serp.So you show that people are scum by saying that they're Town? What the hell?
I tend to let people who put effort go by because even in the event that they are mafia, they are still supplying the town with information....Excuse me while I cry openly.
Ah, Rouk, that's a good point there. Ya, bandwagons do provide analysis on later days based on who started them/ joined them. Fair enough, I'm going to have to give you that point....What is this? I didn't say anything. Are you telling me you're just reading through my posts now!?
Okay, ya, that was a bit over the top. I admit to having a reputation for trying grand schemes (it was a precedent that started in my second game of mafia ever.) So ya, I probably shouldn't get mad at you guys for that since I admit to being out of line with trying it this early on in my career here.Replace Grand Scheme with Ass Pull (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AssPull) and I think we're closer to the truth here. The instant people said 'you're clearing him too easily' you replied 'IT'S ALL MY CUNNING TRAP TO PUT HIM OFF GUARD!' which was slightly hard to believe. >_>
Didn't change my vote cause I didn't see the relevance of changing it.Besides, I dunno, pushing for a lynch? If Donut is no-where near being lynched a vote on him achieves nothing, especially when other people are under suspicion for other reasons.
Also - ya, baseless accusations are fun.*headdesk*
I voted, he responded with what I deemed acceptable, then I unvoted.He responded with an accusation against you. It's the most direct form of chainsaw possible, with the target accusing the attacker personally. So why did you back off because he was saying bad things about you?
Srs bsns. You seem rather jumpy for action.
So Pesco, I hear you want to end the RVS stage right away, huh? I've been watching these games in the past, and I don't see how what I've been doing is anything out of the ordinary. If anything, YOU'RE more suspicious for wanting to end the RVS so quickly. However, if you were scum that'd be too obvious, even for you...I'd say I'm withholding my vote, but you already have my vote, so.So as we can see, Donut reflects the attack with another attack, and Pesco simply says
Good enough for me.And unvotes. Donut never argued about why he was Town, he just turned the chessboard over and made it an attack on Pesco. Why is that worth clearing him for?
I felt Donut wasn't scummy by then, he was simply being an idiot (yay more insults!).What changed between that and the 'srs bzns' post? Because he continued to make no sense, you decided he wasn't scummy at all and just an idiot?
That probably should have had added after it "when I find somebody who I think is acting scummier and not contributing". Obvious if a long post is scum-tacular and that person is a good option I'll go for them. In this case, I feel the town has better options.Mind explaining these 'better options', then?
Also, I can think something is weak without thinking it is scummy. I never said I thought Neitz was scum, I said I thought his reasons for the bandwagon were weak.
Weak reason equals one of two things: 1) a vote early in the game.
As for why I don't think it makes sense - bandwagons are usually for the sake of forcing somebody into a claim OR because it's DATBF/RVS. Bandwagons happen almost entirely within the first day, and are almost always pointless/bad for town. Weak reason does not equal bandwagon. Weak reason equals one of two things: 1) a vote early in the game. 2) scum who can't think of anything good.
Are you normally an aggressive player? Do you feel the need to throw a vote around every post? Please respond to this.
Never said it was a good point, said it was acceptable.
I'd like to point out, affinity, that if I were trying to cover up painfully obvious mistakes, that I would have admitted to being incorrect long ago about bandwagon/serp's long post.
He responded with an accusation against you. It's the most direct form of chainsaw possible, with the target accusing the attacker personally. So why did you back off because he was saying bad things about you?
...
And unvotes. Donut never argued about why he was Town, he just turned the chessboard over and made it an attack on Pesco. Why is that worth clearing him for?
I felt Donut wasn't scummy by then, he was simply being an idiot (yay more insults!). The unvote is my stance and I'll revote him when I think he's scummy.
How was it acceptable? How was it not of scummy intent?
Pesco: The part you wanted me to address is in #25 when NF reconfirmed his original joke vote on Donut because he said Donut was serious. Then he also gave himself an out that Donut's vote might have been a joke. Is there a problem with that? That's the first solid accusation in this game and I noted it. Why was this worth voting me for?
What's he defending with the chainsaw? I don't see why I should keep pressuring him if he's just spewing idiotic nonsense, which is where I don't see scummy intent.You attacked him for being jumpy and aggressive. He attacked back rather than defending himself. That's chainsaw.
You voted Donut with an accusation of being too jumpy about getting out of the RVS. Donut responded by saying that you clearly really wanted to end the RVS and then going off on a tangent and voting Kiro. You proceed to also back off and go for Kiro.
...
If you thought he was being an idiot, why didn't you just say something along the lines of 'Donut looks lost, so it's not a scumtell' instead of 'good enough for me' which implies that you think his answer is sufficient? The 'he's an idiot' response takes several posts to emerge, which leads me to think it's been made up after the fact.
That's speculation on your part of what I meant when I said he was jumpy. True that I didn't say anything at the time, but why should you decide on your own that I must have meant the underlined?Why is it my fault that you weren't being clear about what you meant and thus apparently got misinterpreted?
It's quite meaningless for me to explain what I meant in that post nowOf course. Because not explaining what you say is entirely pro-Town. >_>
Do YOU think his answer is good enough? I doubt you think so, therefore how is my answer of 'Good enough for me' bad?Because, well...it isn't? Donut didn't respond to your accusation in any way, he just pointed out a flaw in your play. That isn't a reason to consider him any less scummy, and that's what I don't understand.
He has the responsibility of making his answer okay for you guysSo what, you want him to come out and say to us 'hey guys, I was all jumpy earlier because I'm an idiot so don't vote me'?
Pesco's post.Urngh...
For jumping on the "That" too motivated.
##Vote Nuclear Fusion
I'm a little light on other reasons, but this is something that really caught my attention. This whole thing you said just rings WTF to me. You're basically not going to pursue someone who puts any effort into their posts. What if they make a fatal slip-up, which is more likely in a long post? Wouldn't you rather lynch a suspicious person so that their information holds some hard value? I don't care what play style you have, this just screams anti-town to me.
hawever, pass for being waaaaaaaay too suspicious.(for now)T_T
Why is it my fault that you weren't being clear about what you meant and thus apparently got misinterpreted?
Of course. Because not explaining what you say is entirely pro-Town. >_>
Because, well...it isn't? Donut didn't respond to your accusation in any way, he just pointed out a flaw in your play. That isn't a reason to consider him any less scummy, and that's what I don't understand.
So what, you want him to come out and say to us 'hey guys, I was all jumpy earlier because I'm an idiot so don't vote me'?
REALLY want to see a Pesco lynch now. Deflecting the blame for his own imprecise wording onto the people reading it is insanely scummy IMO.
I don't know what you want by being a smug smartass, pesco. But if it's clearing yourself, you're certainly doing it wrong. In fact, you seem to be doing everything possible to look scummy.
Because, well...it isn't? Donut didn't respond to your accusation in any way, he just pointed out a flaw in your play. That isn't a reason to consider him any less scummy, and that's what I don't understand.
For jumping on the "That" too motivated.
hawever, pass for being waaaaaaaay too suspicious.(for now)
It's your fault that you ran with the misinterpretation and never thought to ask clearly first.So you can be as muddy as you like and it's perfectly okay? I read your point as I interpreted it, and apparently got it wrong, but if you'd just be clearer it wouldn't have happened.
Explaining is subject to more misinterpretation and nitpicking, so I'm stopping it here.This is insanely scummy. Not giving a solid explanation allows scum to produce an escape route if need be because their position is flexible. They can come up with all sorts of explanations for what they did because they can't be held to anything.
You're talking yourself into circles. His response was idiotic, I concluded not likely to be scum. Figure out your synapses on your own.Where did you say this? 'Good enough for me' does NOT suggest this sort of response, which is the point I've been making all day.
His answer was fine by my book, what do I care if you don't like his answer.This is not the religion thread. Opinions are not totally and utterly untouchable, because in the end there are concrete townies and mafiosi. Therefore I have every right to disapprove of your opinion, in the same way that other players disapproved of NF clearing Serp so easily.
"IMO" ... Rou, why do I have to fight with you even when I'm town. Prove to me that there hasn't been any tunnel bias in your opinions.Besides the fact you've been deliberately antagonising me so that this argument looks like a petty quarrel, this is blatantly attacking the player rather than the argument.
I'm not trying to necessarily defend Pesco, but let me get this straight Roukanken: You want to lynch him on the basis that he took my being an idiot as good enough to back off? I said from the very first post I made on the subject that I wasn't really accusing Pesco of anything, and whatever I said apparently convinced him of otherwise. I don't see how this is making Pesco more suspicious than NF right now. Not to reopen old wounds, but the only thing I see this as is a lover's spat.Let me explain this AGAIN as a summary of my entire argument against Pesco, for the sake of clarity:
Suddenly I'm suspecting Dorian and I don't know why. I know better than to vote on a gut instinct though, so I'll just leave it as an unexplained suspicion.Major points lost for going for the easy target, especially on gut. Old memories of my Pesco/Donut scumpair theory are rising to the surface again.
Nuclear Fusion: To cut to the chase, if you were complaining about Nietz and others bandwagoning on Donut and not bothering to move your vote because it was a joke vote, you've clearly forgotten that you confirmed your vote for Donut in #25. Therefore, your continued defense of that is no good. Other points of suspicion include an immediate clear of Serpentarius after his post. Liking grand schemes and baseless accusations also is no good. I also don't like how you're mainly just defending yourself and not scumhunting much at all.
Right now I'd still vote for either pesco or Fusion, but I want a new votecount before.Ask and thou shalt recieve, the Witches of Rokkenjima are kind to those who believe in them.
Pesco's reasoning for removing his vote on you magically changed somewhere down the line from 'his response was good enough for me' to 'he's being an idiot', and he's failing to explain why.
This is insanely scummy. Not giving a solid explanation allows scum to produce an escape route if need be because their position is flexible. They can come up with all sorts of explanations for what they did because they can't be held to anything.
Major points lost for going for the easy target, especially on gut. Old memories of my Pesco/Donut scumpair theory are rising to the surface again.
If I have it right, my explanation was good enough for him because I'm being an idiot.What exactly does this mean? You're an idiot, and therefore you posted an intelligent and logical response?
Or he's stopping because if you put all his posts together his point makes sense and he's tired of trying to explain it to you. At least that's what I'd think if I were Pesco. *shudders*Why does he need to make me read between the lines to find his opinion rather than just say it outright?
Uh...didn't I say I WASN'T going after him BECAUSE it's a bad idea to do it on gut? >_>Still, suddenly turning on him for doing what he's been doing all game feels bad to me.
So you can be as muddy as you like and it's perfectly okay? I read your point as I interpreted it, and apparently got it wrong, but if you'd just be clearer it wouldn't have happened.
This is insanely scummy. Not giving a solid explanation allows scum to produce an escape route if need be because their position is flexible. They can come up with all sorts of explanations for what they did because they can't be held to anything.
This is not the religion thread. Opinions are not totally and utterly untouchable, because in the end there are concrete townies and mafiosi. Therefore I have every right to disapprove of your opinion, in the same way that other players disapproved of NF clearing Serp so easily.
Why does he need to make me read between the lines to find his opinion rather than just say it outright?
Nope, you started it (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg41977#msg41977)If you are seriously attempting to use this as an argument, I'm done explaining myself. I've made my case perfectly clear, and continuing will produce nothing worthwhile.
Why does he need to make me read between the lines to find his opinion rather than just say it outright?
For the record, I consider the following a scum tell - Player A answers a question directed at Player B by Player C. Also, if Player A defends Player B from an accusation by Player C.
[nongamerelated]I should be allowed to get fed up with you too. Neither of us want to play the game getting angry at each other all the time I would hope.[/nongamerelated]Then why exactly do you keep deliberately goading me on? You're obviously enjoying this.
Maybe you're just expecting to read beyond my words all the time and automatically do so. Get out of that habit.Before you told me I read your posts too literally. Now you're saying I'm trying too hard to find a hidden meaning?
For the record, I consider the following a scum tell - Player A answers a question directed at Player B by Player C. Also, if Player A defends Player B from an accusation by Player C.
Donut's done some and so have you now. Would I not be justified in confirming my vote?
But ya, please, enlighten me on when I did it.
Pesco isn't flailing. And Rouk is seriously trying to get more information out of him, and that search feels genuine. I'm reading both of them as townies fighting with each other, with donut trying to buddy up a little by defending Pesco.
Then why exactly do you keep deliberately goading me on? You're obviously enjoying this.
Before you told me I read your posts too literally. Now you're saying I'm trying too hard to find a hidden meaning?
Quote from: The part in questionPesco isn't flailing. And Rouk is seriously trying to get more information out of him, and that search feels genuine. I'm reading both of them as townies fighting with each other, with donut trying to buddy up a little by defending Pesco.
This seems like buddying it up to me and Rou in the same go.
I'm guessing names in italics mean they unvoted?Yes.
I'm defending myself because everybody is on my case. If I try to just say "oh hey look I think he is scum" then you would call the deflection. I can't win either way in this case, so I'd rather defend myself to prevent the town from lynching the cop.
EBWOP: I also read everything else he had to say BTW, but it's all flashing "suspicious" to me.
Offense is the best defence. Seriously, turning out a solid case on someone is far better than trying to explain yourself, because it shows that you have a solid stance, really.
Quotehawever, pass for being waaaaaaaay too suspicious.(for now)T_T
The inverse Too Townie fallacy strikes again.
Dorian...really doesn't seem to know what's happening. I'll ask him this, though - you seem suspicious of both Pesco and Donut, but why are you more suspicious of Donut?
EBWOP: By which I mean I don't get the 'jumping on the THAT too motivated' point.
...What does that even mean? Please explain the meaning behind this sentence.
Dorian, aside from his seemingly incoherent post, makes a good point. What I understand from his voting reasons is that you seemed to jump onto the NF bandwagon for a single reason, which was that his 'effort always deserves to get by" was scummy. How was this different from the 'I overlook long posts because they show effort' thing he said earlier, which you questioned in a rather friendly way?I know it is a cheap way to answer but that was exactly me point.
[cracktheory]Dorian is Wrathie's alt :V[/cracktheory]Count me subscribed.
Rou, why do I have to fight with you even when I'm town. Prove to me that there hasn't been any tunnel bias in your opinions.like this. But I trace Rou's arguments and his train of thought seems very natural, soooo.
Serp, donut - Screw you guys. I've been saying this for how long now? Why are you both suddenly for it?There's a big difference between being oddly quiet for 23 hours (which is how long you waited before voting him) and staying oddly quiet for 48 hours (which is how long I waited before voting him).
Serp, donut - Screw you guys. I've been saying this for how long now? Why are you both suddenly for it?There's a big difference between being oddly quiet for 23 hours (which is how long you waited before voting him) and staying oddly quiet for 48 hours (which is how long I waited before voting him).
According to the last votecount, we still have a day left, don't worry.
B) The confirm vote on donut was still part of RVS.
And about voting for Dorian... yea... eliminating the liability is always good, but that's not actual scumhunting. I'm a little suspicious Serpentarius chose that route in the end. Serpentarius also did not mention the fact that Dorian let NF pass and not for the copclaim in his reason to vote him.
Finally, you haven't really been scumhunting at all.
So my point is that you've been remarkably lazy in your voting reasons, but you've taken the time to defend a particular person.
As for Donut, it seems like the case for him being scum hinges on Pesco being scum too. If that's the case, wouldn't it be smarter to lynch Pesco and then take another look at Donut in light of his flip? I'd feel better contributing to a Pesco lynch than a Donut one, if Dorian doesn't go through.
I've been dismissing him as a newbie this whole time, but him being lurkerscum is indeed a possibility.
it feels to me that you think voting me is a safer lynch to push.Actually, I think pushing your lynch when I did was less safe than pushing the lynch on Nuke, since "Pesco feels like scum by gut and Nuclear feels like scum by facts".
I felt Donut wasn't scummy by then, he was simply being an idiot (yay more insults!).This would be excusable, but it still seems out of place to me for anyone to realize that was true before Donut had everyone explain to him why that reasoning was poor.
(for reasons that I think are retarded, I'll add)Ad Hominim
Cause lynching me would be on the list of stupidest things town can do todayAd Hominim
So ya, if people want, I'll claim.Sign of giving up.
but to say "is better to lynch a-good-for-nothing towney than a helpfull-mafioso" goes wayThis is Exactly Right
hawever, pass for being waaaaaaaay too suspicious.(for now)This is Exactly WRONG. I can understand meaning to vote for him later, since that's what my plan is as well, but no one is ever too suspicious to not be attacked for it.
I'm defending myself because everybody is on my case. If I try to just say "oh hey look I think he is scum" then you would call the deflection. I can't win either way in this case, so I'd rather defend myself to prevent the town from lynching the cop.
Saying I'm trying to hard to vote for you ignores the case I'm trying to present.What is the case you are trying to present? All I see is "Dorian isn't posting very often." Which isn't a hard scumtell.
You're obviously enjoying this.He's obviously not. Trust me, go back and read a few of your points. Pesco has Tried to explain his thought process to you several times, and every time you complain about every individual point. He's also tried to stop this argument, which you then sparked another argument over why not explaining himself is scummy. Which, doesn't even apply, because he's been trying to explain himself the whole time.
Why?QuoteOffense is the best defence. Seriously, turning out a solid case on someone is far better than trying to explain yourself, because it shows that you have a solid stance, really.However, I completely disagree with you on this.
Zak needs a ProdI need a hug.
Serp: I'll concede the point about missing the copclaim as neutral as I did assume he had noticed NF's copclaim. You are correct in that he didn't mention it so there's no proof he noted it. As for your comment about "putting forward our cases for who we think should be lynched," Dorian is more lynch worthy than these other people who you have more of their statements to draw upon? I'm not seeing why because he hasn't been THAT unresponsive, just irregular.
I'll disagree to that. Donut buddying up to Pesco could be Scum Donut trying to clear Town Pesco and give an "I told you so" vibe if Pesco gets lynched. And of course, there's the chance he's trying to prevent a Scumbuddy Pesco from getting lynched. Pesco's alignment has no bearing on Donut's alignment. I've thought about the two as separate individuals and I'm finding Donut's laziness except for a Pesco defense along with a "I'll hammer Pesco if need be at the end" a greater worry than Pesco's half-evasiveness over a comment Donut made about RVS in the beginning of the game.
On Dorian: Serp brought up 'but he could be a liability in lategame!', which is trash reasoning as is (and seems like an excuse not to scumhunt, frankly)- but to argue along those lines for a sec anyway, I think players like Dorian become far easier to read as the game progresses, particularly as flips come to light. Lynching him now is still a huuuuuge crapshoot.
Let's get this out there too. My flip has no bearing on what Donut may be. Wagon analysis is all you're going to get.
Letting Nuke live 'till tomorrow might help us out further into the game, and letting Dorian live might burn us down the road.I guess what I'm failing to see is how this is absolutely true enough that we should go through with Nuke's Philosophy on the situation.
but to say "is better to lynch a-good-for-nothing towney than a helpfull-mafioso" goes way too far.This describes perfectly the Situation we've found ourselves in.
I guess what I'm failing to see is how this is absolutely true enough that we should go through with Nuke's Philosophy on the situation.
However, Dorian raised an original point which I feel was not easy to find, which is more than what NF can say, with his useless politicking; and I think that tells us that he has a clear stance and such. The 'lurking' argument is horrible when you have not judged his posts in anyway. Also, you don't seem to regard what Dorian says at all, which worries me, and you seem to making use false delimnas to stick your vote onto someone easy to implicate, which does no favours with me. Yes, he has bad presentation, but there's the content.
Let's get this out there too. My flip has no bearing on what Donut may be. Wagon analysis is all you're going to get.Okay, so the fact that you both had the shortest argument ever and then proceeded to simultaneously jump to Kiro is completely irrelevant.
I know I'm town, Donut could be anything. Get rid of the presuppositions about Donut based on my flip, it's going to be unreliable.Defending other players is a scummy action whether the player you're defending is Town or scum.
Natsuhi, wife of Krauss. A jerkass bitch with well-meaning intentions. And I have aspirins for use at night. Aspirins contain salicylic acid and ease headaches, that's all there is to it.Explains the aspirin reference, but there's also the fact that Natsuhi is a likely suspect for the criminal in Episode 1. So...yeah.
My point on insults should have asked this, is it still scummy of me when I specifically insult Rou or Donut. No real need to answer this further.I'm intending to answer 'yes' here, simply because insulting players without reason simply makes you look scummy and fails to produce anything useful.
Pesco has Tried to explain his thought process to you several times, and every time you complain about every individual point. He's also tried to stop this argument, which you then sparked another argument over why not explaining himself is scummy. Which, doesn't even apply, because he's been trying to explain himself the whole time.I'm seriously starting to get sick of repeating this. I didn't accept Pesco's explanation of his thought process because, from what I can tell, none of said thought process was actually present when he made the vote. If I thought Donut was posting like such an idiot that he couldn't be scum, I wouldn't respond to him with 'Good enough for me' because that implies that I actually think he's posting well. This is the point I've been making all day.
Explains the aspirin reference, but there's also the fact that Natsuhi is a likely suspect for the criminal in Episode 1. So...yeah.All flavour is, as such, flavour, and should be treated accordingly. Also, happy birthday!
I don't like Nietz for his justification for not finding donut's switch to NF scummy; it smacks of WIFOM when he says he doesn't think it's a good idea to bus, but there is also a simple oversight, since NF is not necessarily scum. Scum donut may have just been trying to pretend having a stance.As I said, I don't think that action was scummy per se. I can see a townie being eager to vote for a scummy-looking player to get the pressure off him. I don't think that clears donut of everything else though, his overall play has been weak and not very coherent. I'd still put him in the top 3 suspicion list, along with pesco and NF.
I have aspirins and I'm not going to be sharing them. Aspirins are headache tablets if you're not sure what I'm talking about.
Natsuhi, wife of Krauss. A jerkass bitch with well-meaning intentions. And I have aspirins for use at night. Aspirins contain salicylic acid and ease headaches, that's all there is to it.That reminds me a lot of scum-pesco trying to use flavor and a weird claim to clear himself in Shrine Festival Mafia.
NF really likes to attack people who vote for whoever he's voting for. That seems intuitively uncool.I like to attack everybody 8) It just happens that this game I've attacked people for what I thoughts was a stupid bandwagon attempt
That reminds me a lot of scum-pesco trying to use flavor and a weird claim to clear himself in Shrine Festival Mafia.
In Shrine Festival, I wrote my own flavour with a bit of mod-manipulation. Look who's in charge of this game and tell me if that's even possible. You're definitely grasping with this point.
For all the space that it took in the last page, the pesco/Rou argument did little to nothing to advance the situation. pesco's situation, that is. All I get from you is that you are not willing to act pro-town in this game. And judging by past experience, you're being the exact kind of anti-town you are when being scum.
That reminds me a lot of scum-pesco trying to use flavor and a weird claim to clear himself in Shrine Festival Mafia.
As I mentioned, I don't like Fusion's claim, specially in light of his play so far, and I think waiting to see how tomorrow plays out will likely only bring WIFOM. Even so, I'm still a little more inclined to lynch with pesco and deal with Nf tomorrow
Quote from: PescoRou, why do I have to fight with you even when I'm town. Prove to me that there hasn't been any tunnel bias in your opinions.like this. But I trace Rou's arguments and his train of thought seems very natural, soooo.
##Vote: Pesco, here.
Neitz is kinda chilling and just hanging out, waiting for the right moment to pick one of his two targets without committing. I'm very leery of him at present. Kiro also loses points for saying he's willing to lynch UF despite his claim.
That's not a lot of pressing to validate going for my lynch.If being consistently anti-town ands scummy is not a reason to lynch, I don't know what is.
He mentions that NF tomorrow is going to be a bunch of WIFOM, so why is he willing to only deal with it tomorrow when things are going to be more confusing?I was, and still am willing to lynch him today, but apparently a lot of people think it's better to wait due to his claim. I'm fine with lynching pesco instead, he's bad enough today and it's not like he is going to be more trustworthier tomorrow either.
And according to the voting record, Nietz has never gone near NF.I don't even know what "going near" it's supposed to mean. My only serious votes were donut and pesco, after considering between him and NF.
That's not a lot of pressing to validate going for my lynch.If being consistently anti-town ands scummy is not a reason to lynch, I don't know what is.
Serpentarius: Your argument about lurkers is compelling, but let's analyze what's going on in this game. Donut's latest posts are a sign he's being less responsive to the pressure on him and he's ducking from writing up anything. I'd label him a lurker now. Nuclear Fusion has been the same as well, ever since the copclaim. And Pesco's rather clipped posts just now also looks a bit like he's trying to limp through Day 1. All of this is of comparable lurkiness to the case on Dorian you're advocating.
As for the part about letting lurkers pass, I'll have to disagree with that. Xan was a Town lurker lynched Day 1 in Crawl. Alice was a Scum lurker (if I recall correctly, he hadn't said much that game) set to be lynched Day 1 in GWU which was averted by his fake Doc claim. In recent games, I think MotK has been willing to punish those who are badly lurking, but it's always relative to the actions of those who are actively scummy.
thinks RVS ended when I confirmed voted donut. Explains when RVS ends. Is frustrated that few people commented on my case for donut. (I never had a case on donut, though? so ya)
Alright, Serp raises good points on general technique, but I don't think we penalize effort. Rather, we disregard effort as a method of judgment and merely move on to the content. Obviously, as you can see from NF, the effort he must surely have put in is anything but helpful, since there is so little content and so little scumhunting. And on the flip side, look at FAV from the previous games (where he was confirmed townie for pretty much the totality of the games solely based on her content) While the wrathie thing was a little screwy, I agree, it is more of a lesson that we should lynch lurkers earlier, but not on the first day; since really, I think there are better targets. Furthermore, there is a supposed cop.
Donut: Are you comfortable with Voting Dorian if it leads to his Lynch? Consider all of the implications of Dorian Flipping Town And Flipping Scum before you answer this.
Neitz and Carthrat: Same Question, Except about Pesco.
I think an important point in NF's favour, however, which hasn't really been mentioned yet, is that there is no counterclaim so far.
You've used 'anti-town' a bit, but never outright said scummy. Why only tack on the word now?I don't know what to say...
All you posted afterwards regarding this stance were half-assed explanations and smug remarks, which feels strongly scummy.
In fact, you seem to be doing everything possible to look scummy.
And judging by past experience, you're being the exact kind of anti-town you are when being scum.
That reminds me a lot of scum-pesco trying to use flavor and a weird claim to clear himself in Shrine Festival Mafia.
Alice: re: dorian: Can we lynch him in real life?Yes, PLEASE.
Deadline (1:00 AM EST?)Yes.
1. Mafia NKs him. He's telling the truth and we lose a copHaha...Which of the two? From what I can tell, there's only 1 desirable for town, and that's #2. Only Pesco posted about it though, and Pesco'd post was more of a "lolwut?". Donut then responding without actually saying something to remedy how he said there are two options desirable. It's like he didn't actually notice what Pesco was talking about!
2. Mafia leaves him alive for whatever reason and he starts talking. We have a live cop who can help us
3. He lives and starts feeding us false information, because he's Mafia
Two out of these three options are desirable.
I see Donut throwing up his hands and just giving up, which definitely isn't a point in his favor, to be sure. His self-professed lack of scumhunting ability doesn't help matters either. I'll agree that it's comparable to the case on Dorian, but I think Dorian is looking worse in all regards.How exactly was Dorian "Worse" Than Donut? Dorian made a few posts attempting to give his opinions, and said something that can be easily misconstrued into a scummy statement. Donut has been placing awkwardly timed votes on people without giving effective reasoning for his votes, and excusing it. What exactly make's Dorian more scummy then Donut?
but I just want to point out that there is a balance to strike when weighing lurkiness against scummy posts.And where is this balance? As far as I can tell from your stance on Dorian and Nuke, and your lack of Stance on Donut tells me that you value activity levels more than content of post. Your points on Dorian were afterthoughts.
If this player group has a collective flaw, it's that it penalizes effort. Someone who takes the trouble to post a full justification of his vote and an analysis of every bandwagon and player is just putting out more words, and between those words there will likely be a bunch of little inconsistencies to pick apart, by virtue of the poster's humanity, not his scumminess.Okay, this is a rather decent point, and I will accept this
I'm not trying to present a false dilemma - all I'm saying is that it seems inconsistent to me for you all to give the supposed cop a free ticket due to his possible future utility while also giving the lurker a free ticket despite his likely future liability even on the off chance that he's a townie.This is a False Delemia. You are trying to ingrain in the minds of everyone else is that if we let Dorian Live now, he will continue to live until Lylo, and only then, not before then, will we question or pursue his alignment.
I am voting Pesco, and I usually vote people I'm comfortable with lynching, so... Uh. How is this question not fearmongering, as in it's the same as going "Are you SURE you want to lynch him? HE MIGHT FLIP EITHER WAY".It is Fearmongering. As such, people who are convinced of their vote and provide reasoning why are less likely the be scum.
"It's you. You're the one who killed them.", suddenly said Battler, after spending most of the argument trying to defend himself, almost in vain.Uh, I don't think confirming roles via flavour is a good idea. >_>
When did I say this was a confirmation, or that roles mapped to alignments or powers? :)"It's you. You're the one who killed them.", suddenly said Battler, after spending most of the argument trying to defend himself, almost in vain.Uh, I don't think confirming roles via flavour is a good idea. >_>
after spending most of the argument trying to defend himself
Flavour is flavour, and the only relevant name in it is the person who is about to die. All other names and scenarios are pulled from the pool of all possible characters, some of which might not even be in this mafia game. Furthermore, character name does not imply ability or alignment. In other words, kindly stop trying to outguess the mod. It won't work :)after spending most of the argument trying to defend himself
How exactly was Dorian "Worse" Than Donut? Dorian made a few posts attempting to give his opinions, and said something that can be easily misconstrued into a scummy statement. Donut has been placing awkwardly timed votes on people without giving effective reasoning for his votes, and excusing it. What exactly make's Dorian more scummy then Donut?
And where is this balance? As far as I can tell from your stance on Dorian and Nuke, and your lack of Stance on Donut tells me that you value activity levels more than content of post. Your points on Dorian were afterthoughts.
Okay, this is a rather decent point, and I will accept this
IF... you can present a better way to hunt scum.
This is a False Delemia. You are trying to ingrain in the minds of everyone else is that if we let Dorian Live now, he will continue to live until Lylo, and only then, not before then, will we question or pursue his alignment.
In the end, this is exactly why I consider it a Scumtell to go after Inactive People on day one. Inactives are the number one easiest mislynch since they can't defend themselves and clueless townies would easily agree with the reasoning. This is also a main point in why Nuke is likely Scum.
Donut's vote flip can be seen as both scummy bandwagoning and town pressure voting, so I'm considering this a nulltell as well.
<setup speculation>Judging from Nuke's report, I'm under the impression that this is an F11 (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=F11) game (link provided for those who don't know what F11 is). I wouldn't put it past Alice if it was. What we can expect from the rest of this game is a night action stalemate until Scum hits doctor or we lynch the roleblocker. The other possibility is that Scum intentionally threw away the nightkill to produce this assumption, but it's unlikely.</setup speculation>
tl;dr WIFOM crap. I think you're just scum that didn't think the claim through. You've been scummy so you deserve to be lynched for it.
##Vote NF
I have aspirins and I'm not going to be sharing them. Aspirins are headache tablets if you're not sure what I'm talking about.
@Serp - no, I don't think it's possible that I was targeted by the night kill. And in fact, I don't think I suggested I was. I simply stated that it was awesome that the doc saved somebody.
There is nothing beneficial in me claiming that I was role blocked last night, because that makes me more suspicious and I know it. The best claim I can say is that I got scum results on X, watch us lynch X today, and then go down on day three. That is the best play for me if I am mafia.
Because the only reason for the mafia to both night kill me and block me is if they assume I'm going to be doced. In which case, there is no reason to kill me.
The scum obviously believed my claim, because I was night blocked. I'm no threat to them if I can get information at night. Hell, the rest of you are already so gungho about lynching me, it's beneficial to the mafia not to kill me.
Your conclusion from what I said was false there, serp. How is my saying "the doc didn't target me, and the mafia didn't night kill me" the same as saying "nobody targeted me?"
I don't think I was targeted by the night kill because I was role blocked. If the role blocker is town, then maybe I was targeted by a night kill and a doc. However, role blocker tends to be a mafia role.
That should explain why I wasn't targeted by the night kill?
Waves of BS? What do you people have against trying to offer possibilities? The fact that it looks like WIFOM? Almost everything in mafia looks like WIFOM. There is so little actual fact in a game of mafia that it probably wouldn't even fill a thimble. The most fact you'll get is from the dead. Everything else is pretty much subject to WIFOM. So yes, waves of BS. Right.
Cut: Your scenario requires some insane haxlike probabilities, like those seen in GWU mafia. It can't be happening again because Alice is mod this time and we didn't have a massclaim to result in perfect info for scum to manipulate.
I am a bit leery of Affinity and Serp, as they've both gone 'NF sucks' and then don't vote him (although admittedly I probably would cut him a lot of slack if it wasn't for that last post.)
Quoteit feels to me that you think voting me is a safer lynch to push.Actually, I think pushing your lynch (Pesco's lynch) when I did was less safe than pushing the lynch on Nuke, since "Pesco feels like scum by gut and Nuclear feels like scum by facts".
And according to the voting record, Nietz has never gone near NF.
Question to Serpentarius: You say in #153 that you think Donut defending Pesco "may be justified at this point." I missed this earlier and should have questioned your reasoning as to why you thought this. I know this is now coming after Donut's flip, but let's hear what you have to say anyways.
Donut has been defending Pesco, but I think that may be justified at this point. We're running low on time, and so we should be saying why we're dismissing the cases that we don't subscribe to.
From what I see in those first 100 posts, however... I see Dorian not doing much of anything, I see Cart jumping to dorian's defense whenever he can, I see Affinity doing almost nothing also. I see Serp generally trying to hunt scum. I see donut and pesco getting conflated for almost no reason, mostly because of Rouk and Neitz. Rouk and Neitz also seem to be generally searching for scum. Zakeri seems happy to just jump on whatever looks shiny at the moment. And Kiro... I don't even know what he is doing exactly.
So my scum list right now is Dorian, Cart, and Affinity. Pesco is following it up only because I don't like his claim, which is a terrible reason to want to lynch somebody I think. Leaning townie on Neitz, Serp, and Rouk, and feeling pretty mediocre on the rest.
Affinity ? You should read more Oscar Wilde
Wonders why I have a problem with a weak reason. Wonders why I didn?t vote Neitz if I don?t like Neitz?s weak reason and I didn?t have a serious vote beforehand. Votes me. Thinks pesco is avoiding questions.
Affinity - Are you normally an aggressive player? Do you feel the need to throw a vote around every post? Please respond to this.
...
So the only person I've got any feelings on is... Dorian, huh.
1) I said I'm not sharing my aspirins, it means I'm keeping their benefit for myself. Aspirins were ingested because I did have a headache.Speaking of BPs, the only possible way I can interpret this claim is as a limited-use bulletproof. If it's true, then that would make you the failed target of scum last night. And I just can't see scum targeting you. Ever.
2) The only confirmation of my role is that I never said I was vanilla.
Perma RB is lame, so the supposed cop isn't going to deliver anything for the rest of the game? By his merits as a player alone, he's good to be lynched.What's that supposed to mean? That he should be lynched even if he is a cop, because he's not going to be of use?
Nietz:I did find scum-pesco once with the Preemptive Bandwagon theory (even though town didn't believe me and he stealth-hammered me then), so I thought it could be applied here as well. I did give up on that because wasn't acting like the kind of player that pulls this kind of plot (which is different than pesco saying he's an idiot so it's OK to ignore him).
Makes a case on Donut, claiming he wants to attract a bandwagon...thus, starting the Donut bandwagon, somewhat. Now, Donuts bandwagon didn't go anywhere because NF started getting a load of (justified) votes. But still, what the hell?
Abandons Donut vote, using the same reason Pesco would use later; Donut could not possibly pull it off(he's an idiot). (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg42738#msg42738) Whee! Then hops onto NF's/Pescos wagon. Votes Pesco after NF's copclaim, and then the rest of the day, he tries to help Roukan bury Pesco. I agree with Pesco saying that Nietz was basically following along with Roukan without much originality, which seems opportunistic.
[notserious]Oh yeah, Nietz is always scum. XD[/notserious]
Basically, I'm going to vote Nietz, because NF seems more like completely useless townie cop, and I'd like Pesco to answer my questions before I do anything else.
What's that supposed to mean? That he should be lynched even if he is a cop, because he's not going to be of use?
Speaking of BPs, the only possible way I can interpret this claim is as a limited-use bulletproof. If it's true, then that would make you the failed target of scum last night. And I just can't see scum targeting you. Ever.
If I were to say what tipped me over to pesco, it was his aspirin-crumbing shenanigans. I don't see how that would be useful except as a way to pave his way to a believable flavour-claim.
So yeah, I'm still for a pesco lynch.
Why would that be a pro-town way to divulge information?
It stands out because if you were to flip scum, it would implicate Donut(who would be alive if you were lynched) more then if you hadn't said anything, because to me, it looked like a purposely poor way to distance yourself from a "scumbuddy". There's little to no need for you to say anything if you were town, as it should be assumed that town or scum could have defended town(town or scumDonut could have defended townPesco), and is thus a null tell. This depends on two things though. One, Donut was town, which he was, and two, you're scum, which I can't prove right now, but I can assume due to various things. Even then, that statement was useless at best, if you really are town.
summary: I think that post seemed to be a way for scumPesco to help out scum by making donut a prime lynch target day 2, before he got lynched, which was what he was assuming would happen. It didn't happen.
Town knows wastes time figuring out what the breadcrumbs mean.QuoteWhy would that be a pro-town way to divulge information?
Why would breadcrumbing be a pro-town way to divulge information? Because it's better than massclaiming like an idiot and painting a target on myself for speculation.
Clarify this. It makes absolutely no sense why you would vote Donut when changing your vote (with a substantial reason) to me would have been a wagon swinger. Further, tell us what the outcome is if I had flipped town? How does that make Donut look then?If you flipped town, then it would be a null tell on Donut. You didn't have to say anything for people to assume that. Town or scum can defend town. Why make obvious statements that can cause suspicion on other people depending on what you flip?
I wasn't around when my wagon got derailed, so tell me from your perspective how it happened that I was no longer the prime lynch?I wasn't technically playing when your wagon got derailed. It was Zakeri that pushed the Donut wagon above the others though(for what I think is a dubious reason), and Roukan(lol) was the one that derailed your wagon, and put Donut at L-1(so that there'd be a lynch). Yeah, I know, useless info, etc. That's all I know of the derailing though.
We have no proof other than his word that he's a cop. Ignoring what role he is, his play has been scummy enough to warrant being lynched.While I agree that his actions have been scummy by themselves, I don't know how simply ignoring that he claimed cop and being rolebocked would help judging the situation.
And I never claimed as such either. There's no rule that prevents scum from forgoing their NK.Of course you didn't, you've been avoiding being straight about everything you do the whole game, but it's the logical way for any other player to interpret your vague claim.
Why would breadcrumbing be a pro-town way to divulge information? Because it's better than massclaiming like an idiot and painting a target on myself for speculation.Because the only option is to either massclaim or breadcrumb? And considering your claimed role would only affect yourself, there's no use to town for any breadcrumbs. The only possible purpouse would to validate a later claim, which is much more useful for scum trying to bullshit town.
About NF: Roleblocked claims sucks, because it's one of the things a fake cop is most likely to claim, the other being that he investigated the NK'd guy. However, if he is indeed a cop and scum does have a RB, it would be the most likely action for them as well.
I don't see how Nk'ing and roleblocking the cop would be a likely strategy for scum. Seems a waste of resources, considering that a town-NF would be a prime candidate for lynch after coming up with a "I got blocked".
I don't see how Nk'ing and roleblocking the cop would be a likely strategy for scum. Seems a waste of resources, considering that a town-NF would be a prime candidate for lynch after coming up with a "I got blocked".
I'm not sure about this 'pesco is breadcrumbing into a later fakeclaim' theory. Why would he not, er, have claimed something solid by now if that was his plan from the start, instead of acting as though he has mysterious unknown powers?
If we don't lynch them as soon as it's clear that they'll be a liability, then when do we do it?That's the idea I'm presenting - when it's apparent that they are going to be a liability. No later, no Sooner.
I don't really like how you distanced away from the donut bandwagon on this sentence alone... so what do you mean by town pressure voting? donut's pileups on Dorian and NF were a little opportunistic and didn't seem to convey any sense of pressure, after all; it seems a little bit that you wanted to get away from a misguided bandwagon as scum.Adding another vote onto a bandwagon doesn't constitute pressure voting? It brings people to L-1 faster, which is suppose to make them respond with more haste than usual.
There is also a weird trait to his posting that assumes a cop is an inevitable fixture in the game, something I am far more willing to attribute to role-holding scum than town of any stripe, and the way he presents it is just downright unnatural as town in general.I agree with this. His roleclaim looked more to me like "Well, crap, I'm going to get lynched. Okay, before I go, which one of you is the cop?"
I do what I do for fun, and nothing more. Mafia is about enjoyment, and I'll play it how I see fit.you are the Scrub to our Tournaments.
What's even funnier is that you assume I said we only had bandwagon analysis. Now I know your not even reading my posts, thanks affinity.Then what was all of that you said about how ineffective our scumtells are? I remember you complaining about how town can do all of the things that we considered scumtells, which left only bandwagon analysis. Apparently, the only scum tells that exist for you is whoever is currently voting for you.
My theory on who scum are - Affinity and Pesco.Case in point -
Oh, and on the subject of replacing me - in case somebody cares to try... I don't think he'll be in any better position, so don't bother.Off topic, but personally, I'd love to. It'd be my greatest Challenge ever since I dug myself out after replacing Donut. Though, I still could have done a better job surviving.
According to the last votecount, we still have a day left, don't worry.
Also, I'd self vote since you guys clearly want me dead, but I hate people who self vote. So I'm jsut not going to bother posting except after this one.
Dorian, aside from his seemingly incoherent post, makes a good point. What I understand from his voting reasons is that you seemed to jump onto the NF bandwagon for a single reason, which was that his 'effort always deserves to get by" was scummy. How was this different from the 'I overlook long posts because they show effort' thing he said earlier, which you questioned in a rather friendly way?they both prod Donut, and when Donut never got around to answering the question, the only mention of it is Affinity saying he's still waiting for donut to answer (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg43341#msg43341) well after it's apparent he missed the question. they essentially left two prod votes on donut. This is also the first two votes after Serp and Neitz's who both unvoted later.
That's the idea I'm presenting - when it's apparent that they are going to be a liability. No later, no Sooner.
Adding another vote onto a bandwagon doesn't constitute pressure voting? It brings people to L-1 faster, which is suppose to make them respond with more haste than usual.
My real answer was that I didn't believe any of Pesco, Dorian, or Donut were scum
Oh, it happened in another game? Well, I guess it's a fair point.
Nietz:I did find scum-pesco once with the Preemptive Bandwagon theory (even though town didn't believe me and he stealth-hammered me then), so I thought it could be applied here as well. I did give up on that because wasn't acting like the kind of player that pulls this kind of plot (which is different than pesco saying he's an idiot so it's OK to ignore him).
Makes a case on Donut, claiming he wants to attract a bandwagon...thus, starting the Donut bandwagon, somewhat. Now, Donuts bandwagon didn't go anywhere because NF started getting a load of (justified) votes. But still, what the hell?
Abandons Donut vote, using the same reason Pesco would use later; Donut could not possibly pull it off(he's an idiot). (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg42738#msg42738) Whee! Then hops onto NF's/Pescos wagon. Votes Pesco after NF's copclaim, and then the rest of the day, he tries to help Roukan bury Pesco. I agree with Pesco saying that Nietz was basically following along with Roukan without much originality, which seems opportunistic.
[notserious]Oh yeah, Nietz is always scum. XD[/notserious]
Basically, I'm going to vote Nietz, because NF seems more like completely useless townie cop, and I'd like Pesco to answer my questions before I do anything else.
And while I did agree with Rou's arguments, it's not like just decided to agree with him at one point and call pesco scum. If you look at my Day 1 post you'll see that in almost all of them I'm suspicious of pesco.
Besides, if you believe NF is town, why wouldn't I choose him over pesco? It would have been completely justifiable at that point.
@Nietz:
Oh, it happened in another game? Well, I guess it's a fair point.
Alright then.
The only reason I find NF town is because no one counter claimed cop. Even then, he's useless in his current state, as he is being roleblocked apparently, and he's being useless during the day too.
While I liked your questioing of pesco and Nietz, the reason for changing a completely alright case against Nietz is kind of questionable. Just because it happened in another game does not really mean anything objectively.While I do like that he dropped the case on me and do approve of pursuing pesco, I have to admit this was a little strange. Especially considering that me basing my theory on previous experience was just a minor part of my answer to him.
@Serp: read the rules :P Inactivity modkills work just as any others do, resetting time to 0 if the person modkilled is Scum, and resetting time to deadline if the person modkilled is Town (and if the player modkilled is third-party, no time reset occurs).So, as things are, if NF doesn't post soon, the day will end/reset regardless of extension or not?
While I liked your questioing of pesco and Nietz, the reason for changing a completely alright case against Nietz is kind of questionable. Just because it happened in another game does not really mean anything objectively.Bah. Got lazy. I meant that it was in another and WORKED. I found it okay because it apparently worked when it was used(unless someone can disprove that or something), not just because he used it in another game. I'd use something that I know worked before to find scum, and that's how Nietz explained himself. =V
I'm not sure about this 'pesco is breadcrumbing into a later fakeclaim' theory. Why would he not, er, have claimed something solid by now if that was his plan from the start, instead of acting as though he has mysterious unknown powers? The day one pressure on NF and generally stringing out his responses are the two voteworthy things I can see from him, and the former no longer looks quite as bad, poor a move as it might be.Here's a question, Carth - if Pesco isn't trying to set himself up for a fakeclaim, what the hell is he doing? By saying 'I'm a role but I'm not saying what' he's already painted a target on himself for the Mafia, so there should be no harm in saying exactly what he is. If he was something like Bomb or BP he shouldn't be making any sort of claim at all, surely.
But he already answered after awhile here. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg43383#msg43383)This does nothing to help against my point. My point was you were letting donut slide in terms of answering.
we still have a day left162 - donut defends against Kiro. Still no mention of what you posted
I have aspirins and I'm not going to be sharing them. Aspirins are headache tablets if you're not sure what I'm talking about.He shares them with only himself, which means the pills are for his headaches.
Natsuhi, wife of Krauss. A jerkass bitch with well-meaning intentions. And I have aspirins for use at night. Aspirins contain salicylic acid and ease headaches, that's all there is to it.He can prevent headaches. No information of what causes headaches.
The only confirmation of my role is that I never said I was vanilla.What this basically means is that Pesco is trying to ellude to a certain role. The key here is that he never said he wasn't Vanilla. I'm lead to believe that his headache medicine does something similar to what my traffic signs did in Real Women of Science.
Also, Nietz had no actual opinion on Dorian what so ever during Day 1. Why?Basically because there there wasn't much of Dorian for most of the day. If anything, I thought of him as a newbie lurker, which his later request for replacement confirmed.
Lack of counterclaiming is a poor excuse for letting someone off the hook. Consider what would happen in my games, any bullshit role claimed will not be counterclaimed because it's pretty well likely that the role is so obscure that no counter exists.The amount of irony here just went off the scale. Do I have to remind you who claimed a common and easily countered role, and who claimed a bullshit obscure role with no counter here?
All this counterclaim talk is totally stupid. Roles can be duplicated. Roles may not exist in the first place. Open minds, people.That's a strange change of mind, since Day 1 you were arguing that NF shouldn't be lynched because of his claim, and now you've been pushing for his lynch the whole day while completely letting pesco aside.
Annnnd btw rou (and neitz really, since they claim to be the same) it's really odd that you'd try and push a pesco lynch here over NF on those grounds, who's stormed off and not returned nor shown signs of that.
If NF's death is virtually inevitable, surely we want to see it before anyone else's in order to maximize the intel avaliable to us? I'm sensing people refusing to adapt to the situation and sticking with old methods.
I'd ask Sodium now to explain Dorian's posts in his own words.
As it stands, I don't feel the need to consider Zak or Affinity when Kiro and Sodium are bigger fish in my eyes.
I'm always wary of Kiro when he doesn't die within the first few nights. It's not a sound accusation, so I won't be voting him for this.
Town Kiro doesn't speculate like that.Pesco: "I'm not voting based on Meta."
I'm fine with being lynched today since it's not LyLo."...because, you know, I'm a townie, and since it's not lylo or anything, lynching a townie is okay."
Pesco: "I'm not voting based on Meta."
Pesco: "META! *vote*"
What exactly are you calling Kiro out on again? Your vote seems to be based entirely on the point that Kiro is suggesting that Roukanken Might be scum if you flip town. This is basically the kind of accusation that can only be used on day one when someone is discussing who they want to target if the day one bandwagon flips scum or not. At least explain why you think this is scummy.
I'll need to take a thorought look when I'm not busy, but I think Pesco is most deserving of the lynch right now, especially due to Neitz's flip and Pesco's latest reaction to Kiro.
Pesco- Given that Rou vanished for half the game, and spent most of the other half of it bulldogging you, I struggle to see how he is somehow totally clear, let alone 'deserves to win' if he's scum. This is so out of left field.
What does Serp think of this reluctance?
Part of my sekrit undisclosed suspicions were that pesco was a doc trying not to get NKd with all the shenanigans; they've pretty much evaporated, and he's looking much worse than before. Obviously with NF flipping cop his actions early d2 weren't happy either.
I'd ask Sodium now to explain Dorian's posts in his own words.Well, let's see...
120-Gives points against NF, including pointing out something wrong with NF's case. However, he then says "TOO SCUMMY TO BE SCUM", which seems like something a new player would say. States suspicion of Donut & Pesco. He's reasoning is alright, and then he votes Donut for jumping onto "that", "that" being a small part of a post NF made. I think he was saying that he thought Donut was trying to get people off of him by voting NF, because Donut voted NF on something he thought was weak.
I don't see why there's a problem with that and it frames your bias into thinking they're acting in concert when they were actually voting me for different reasons. I get that Pesco not making a clear explanation of things is not good, but looking at the situation as a whole, I don't think it's that worthy for you clinging to it all the way to now.The point is that it seems somewhat convenient that they both switched onto you simultaneously. Obviously the point doesn't hold since Donut flipped Town, but it made sense to me at the time. >_>
If you'll notice, I'm not voting you (Donut) because your posts are short.I'm not getting this. You thought he was Town because he made short arguments in Pesco's defense rather than long, overdrawn ones?
EBWOP: More to come (and probably a tl;dr to help people out), but I didn't realise exactly how much I had to catch up on. Plus the lack of a mouse on my new laptop is making this kinda difficult. >_>
aaaaaaaaaaaagh I hate this laptop sometimes
He compares Dorian to Mr_Alert, but IIRC ALert was Town, so yeah. :/You're thinking about that game where I replaced him, right? If so, he was scum. I'd know because I replaced Mr.Alert. >_>
Why was Dorian's reasoning alright TO YOU.Holy crap, do I have to say this again? TAKING INTO ACCOUNT HOW HE WAS PLAYING(NEWBIE, QUIET, DOESN'T KNOW THE OTHER PLAYERS WELL), AND WHAT HE SAID HE SAW("DONUT AND PESCO WENT FROM FIGHTING TO VOTING THE SAME PERSON FOR NO REASON"), I FELT THAT IT WAS ALRIGHT FOR HIM TO COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT HE CAME TO. AND THAT WASN'T EVEN THE FOCUS OF POST 120.
Roukan and Pesco:For some reason, I have a theory that they're pretending to argue(as usual) in order to distract town.'As usual'? Did Magnesium even consider this before he posted it?
Also, Zak says Pesco is good for stating his thought process, although I find that this is ironic. Zakeri(well, everyone pretty much) disliked NF's "effort=clear", and yet he himself was doing the same with Pesco, and how he liked Pesco was explaining his thought process.No, these are not the same thing. Zak is saying here 'you've explained your reasoning thoroughly, so I trust you'. NF said 'you used a lot of words, so I trust you'. No-where near the same.
Furthermore, people shouldn't be praised just because they did not vote for donut on D1, as it was reasonable to assume that he was going to be lynched anyway.
In response to Rou: "I'm not voting Donut because his posts are short," but I was voting Donut because he actively made a defense for someone else as well as piggybacking onto the Dorian vote. That's the point I wanted to make with him because he was distraught he can't scumhunt because he doesn't type as much as other players.I'll give you this point. For some reason I thought you weren't voting Donut at that point in time, which is why that point stood out. >_>
I also did not get mad specifically because nobody was defending NF. That was just a general observation I made about everyone else. More specifically, I was mad/frustrated that NF was going to get modkilled and my impression was that there was going to be less substantive evidence of bandwagon analysis because he wasn't lynched per say. Once it seemed apparent he was just going to disappear, people just let it be and it was a wait and see scenario as the timer wound down.To be fair, defending him would be relatively pointless if the odds of him returning were nil, except for possibly gaining some Townie cred. And even then scum could easily defend the Townie if they're going to get modkilled anyway, so at best any analysis would be a WIFOM.
Also, my unofficial votecount has Pesco at 4 votes (L-1)So, can we get a fullclaim now?
Day 3 Votecount - 2 days 7 hours remaining
Pesco (4) - Serpentarius, Kiro, EX Na_2SO_4, Pesco
Roukanken (1) - Affinity, Carthrat
Kiro (1) - Pesco
EX Na_2SO_4 (1) - Roukanken
Can I self hammer yet?
If not, then
##Unvote
##Vote NaI-(PEsCO4)7-IN-T2He-H2O2Le
Getting me modkilled isn't very nice of you.Forgive me for trying to come up with SOME sort of reasoning for why you'd vote yourself, the most obvious one being 'scum!Pesco wants to end the day early to cut off discussion'.
Claiming to be VT when the role PM clearly says otherwise would be lying.If you're actually claiming to not be vanilla based on FLAVOUR, I will die inside. Does taking aspirin actually do anything in-game outside of flavour?
Pesco, I like how you still haven't answered my question. Your "answer" was not an answer to my question. Cool role claim btw. Serious. I'm going to unvote for various reasons right now, one of which is the fact that you're planning to hammer yourself(which is bad), another is that I actually believe that roleclaim(for various reasons).- You accuse him and simultaneously UNVOTE him?
Pesco, I like how you still haven't answered my question. Your "answer" was not an answer to my question. Cool role claim btw. Serious. I'm going to unvote for various reasons right now, one of which is the fact that you're planning to hammer yourself(which is bad), another is that I actually believe that roleclaim(for various reasons). I'll vote someone later after some re-reading.
Pesco, I like how you still haven't answered my question. Your "answer" was not an answer to my question.
Cool role claim btw. Serious. I'm going to unvote for various reasons right now, one of which is the fact that you're planning to hammer yourself(which is bad), another is that I actually believe that roleclaim(for various reasons). I'll vote someone later after some re-reading.
1.I would have to roleclaim for thisThen why the hell did you mention it in the first place?
2.You're going to kill yourself, no good, etc.Isn't it specifically said that there's no role that benefits from death? If you think Pesco is scum this shouldn't be a problem for you.
3.I would have to roleclaim for thisThis looks familiar.
4.The Day still has 2 days in it. Ties in with "You're going to kill yourself"This point alone would have been enough, you know. Why'd you bring in the whole role meta thing?
5.Doubt you'd make up something like that>_________>
6.A thought I have related to roles in generalWell since you've started, you may as well finish.
and I didn't think of this until Day 2.So why didn't you think about his aspirin claim as one of these until just there? He'd been making the claim for some time.
Personally I'm very interested by his apparent lack of an opinion in terms of Sodium, when he explicitly said he'd be watching out for him after Dorian dropped. A very grey area for me.
Admits later he will vote when Zak responds, but by D3 seems to have disregarded his case altogether, going for me instead for tunnelling Pesco. Why didn't he move his vote to Zakeri even after he got his response?
The fact that you vote Roukan and make no mention of Pesco who by now is reasonably suspicious is what's putting you on my scumdar now.
If one shouldn't be "attacking people for voting him (Nuclear Fusion)," why does it look like you're attacking Rou for voting Pesco?
I don't know where you think I mentioned something like the above. Care to explain?
Voting Donut was a mistake, but 5 other people did the same thing too. Marking that as your first main point against him is iffy.
Lynches don't happen without votes. It's no good at this stage to say 'I like Pesco's lynch but I don't want to vote him yet'. Stop dicking around.
Regarding Rou's case on Sodium: I don't think Sodium has been trying to avoid speaking about Dorian's words. He has given some thoughts on it. I just find it an unreliable way to determine whether he's Scum or not because Dorian stopped posting midway through Day 1, didn't say much as a whole and was quite confusing.This post looks like IIoA to me. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg45525#msg45525)
The reason I thought it was alright was because one could possibly see a connection between you two because of thatSome deep analysis here, seriously.
Also, Dorian's posts were shit. There, happy? I was trying to give reasons to why they were shit(while not using that word), such as him being a newbie, and the reasons that he posted, but the posts were completely useless(WHY DONUT IS SUSPICIOUS AFTER EVERYONE ALREADY SAID WHY) and/or vague("that", what the fuck is "that"?) and/or BAD(TOO SCUMMY TO BE SCUM). If this isn't what you're looking for, PLEASE ::), tell me what you are looking for. Either way, I get the short end of the stick here.So, you spent the last day validating Dorian's opinion to us...and now you admit that his posting was terrible? T_T
The only notable thing is that he let Nuclear Fusion go and voted Donut. Voting Donut was a mistake, but 5 other people did the same thing too. Marking that as your first main point against him is iffy.I never said the vote on Donut was my main argument. I pointed out that a lot of his case against Donut was IIoA, but that's it.
Frankly, your case on him looks a bit like IIoA, picking out what you suspect as poor choice of words like NF being a "suspicious confirmed Townie" and "arguing as usual" with Pesco. I don't think those are strong enough verbal tells to incriminate him on.What about the fact that he tried to suggest a PesRou scumpair (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg43362#msg43362) without even producing a hint of evidence? Or the fact that this was more or less all he had to say about the argument until Day 3?
The switch from Nietz to Pesco is a bit quick, but he gives a reason for it even if it was just off one point. Tell me how that one point is bad and I'll reevaluate it.The point was sheer meta, to be honest:
I did find scum-pesco once with the Preemptive Bandwagon theory (even though town didn't believe me and he stealth-hammered me then), so I thought it could be applied here as well.And Ununubium just says 'lol ok', votes Pesco, and doesn't bring up Nietz again for the rest of the day.
Now, there is absolutely no actual evidence to support this
Lastly, the switch from NF to donut instead of pesco was because I felt that pesco wasn't doing overtly scummy by deflecting donut's question (this opinion is strengthened since donut flipped town).I don't get it. How does Donut being town make Pesco deflecting donut's question better?
On D3, initially skips over Pesco AGAIN and instead turns on me for tunneling him and not liking the NF modkill. So I'm at fault for not being okay with sitting around and letting a player who I think is town get modkilled and losing us a day? >_>
Ignoring bad points and concentrating on the good points about someone isn't good~
I don't get it. How does Donut being town make Pesco deflecting donut's question better?
Do you blame me for attempting to make Dorian's posts sound not completely crappy?As a matter of fact, yes. If you honestly thought they were terrible, then you should have said so. People would probably have been okay with accepting that Dorian was a pretty horrible player, but you said so much in his favour that it looked more like you were trying to avoid anything that could resemble a blot against your name.
Seeing as Pesco thinks questions don exits....The hell does this even mean?
Game theory admittedly contributed to my change; while NF very much seemed scummy to me day 1, if I was wrong (which is always a strong possibility early on), then the payoff of him being town was pretty good, while we don't actually lose that much if we're wrong and it wouldn't have been impossible to recover. Thanks to weirdness on night 1, the payoff then stopped outweighing how goddamn scummy he looked come day 2; when you get a situation with a roleblocked copclaim, he's both useless and pulling out a pretty traditional line for scum in that position. Hence my switch.I admit that you did take this in a much more logical route, rather than Pesco's 'I don't care if you're Town or scum, you're an idiot and therefore deserve to die'. This is why you're not my main suspicion at this point, but the way you just managed to avoid the Pesco case for over a day annoyed me. I guess that really depends on Pesco's flip first and foremost, though.
the bad points were already obvious at that time and therefore irrelevant to the discussion.So in other words, you thought that there were several valid points against Dorian...but still wanted to question Serp's vote anyway? I'm lost.
That's quite a post of nothings there Kiro. You're ready to bus Sodium the moment this gets heavy.I'm sorry, but this is the worst thing I've seen anyone post all game outside of NF's 'oh look, a scumbuddy' back on D1. Still waiting for more conversation from Adamantium before I press the wagon, and all of your goading is doing jack shit about it.
You missed my point completely about Dorian. I was using the good points to question Serp about his decision to vote Dorian; the bad points were already obvious at that time and therefore irrelevant to the discussion....Isn't that basically ignoring them? I mean, your saying that you acknowledged the bad points about Dorian, dismissed them for being obvious, and still attacked Serp for voting Dorian, while knowing that he had justification for his vote. Why do obvious points=irrelevant?
If donut was scum, then pesco's switch to Kiro at the very beginning of the game would be sliglhtly scummier because he would be avoiding his scumbuddy for bad reasons. But that's a minor point, so don't mind me.Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that Pesco's deflection wasn't all that scummy because Donut was town. Dunno how I came to that.
1) I never said that Rou was more suspicious than pesco. The vote was just a means of pressure rather than a statement pointing towards who I think is most scummy; I was merely calling him out on something I noticed. pesco was already getting a bulk of the votes with more than enough reasons, elaborated, after all; thus I didn't think my vote on him would be as important or useful at the start of D3
2) I was attacking Rou for voting pesco only the past days, so I don't think there is a basis for comparison.
3) You said Carthrat was not as scummy due to the fact that he didn't vote donut on D1. This should not have been the case.
4) Again, reasons, reasons, reasons, etc. It seems hypocritical that you sometimes analyze the bandwagons without the reasons behind the votes when there is a flip, and analyze the reasons behind votes only when there is no flip available.
I'm disappointed that I didn't come home to a hammer. Y'all suck.Why were you expecting a hammer not even 24 hours into day 3?
If I was going to self hammer, I would have done so long ago.Really? I thought you were still waiting for an answer to that question.
On D2, pulls out a case on Zakeri for stepping back from the Pesco lynch. Then flips BACK onto NF after he storms off, claiming it'd only help scum. I stand by my earlier belief that Scum!NF would have nothing to gain from this course of action.Considering that if we had lynched yesterday we would have lost all of day 3 to auto-lynching Nuke do you feel this is a decent point against Kiro?
Considering that if we had lynched yesterday we would have lost all of day 3 to auto-lynching Nuke do you feel this is a decent point against Kiro?I was unaware at that point that if NF got modkilled during the night scum got a free kill. Thus I'm willing to withdraw this point.
The first half of Rou's 378 on Sodium is facepalm inducing. I know from experience what it's like to go back and try to justify what the person you replaced said, And I know it's rather hard, since you weren't there when that person said it. Especially if you don't agree with what they said. Basically, no matter how you answer to justifying another person's actions, your answer will always seem scummy. The best answer is to refuse to answer in the first place. This means that the question is loaded to make the answerer look scummy, which means the question itself is scummy because it put equal pressure on town and scum. I don't see why Sodium should take the heat for the way he answered them anymore than for the fact that he did answer them in the first place.Well from how you put it Francium answered in the worst way possible - he contradicted himself by saying that there was something useful in those posts and then admitting later that he was grasping with what he had to work with. Even admitting 'Dorian's posts were crap' would be better than that in my opinion.
There's too many people distancing from my lynch. L-1 is no big deal when I'm ready to die anytime.
I was unaware at that point that if NF got modkilled during the night scum got a free kill. Thus I'm willing to withdraw this point.Okay.
he contradicted himself by saying that there was something useful in those posts and then admitting later that he was grasping with what he had to work with.Yes, it's a legitimate contradiction, but contradictions aren't automatically scummy. Yes, it's important to note things like "I want to lynch x, Vote: y" and ["Vote: X" "X is Town" "I didn't like that lynch."]. This only works when you don't know other's alignments. Sodium already knows what Dorian's alignment is. He came into this game knowing because he was given Dorian's Role PM.
I'm seeing Serp give less and less as the day goes on, and while his 312 looks genuine (Listing who he wants to vote and the reasons why) he's yet to do much beyond that.
In the end, the correct answer is just to say "He's a bad player." But I believe that a Naive Townie would be much more likely to try and analyze the previous poster's thoughts before giving up on it like sodium did.
...Isn't that basically ignoring them? I mean, your saying that you acknowledged the bad points about Dorian, dismissed them for being obvious, and still attacked Serp for voting Dorian, while knowing that he had justification for his vote. Why do obvious points=irrelevant?
For the record, I agree that asking Sodium to explain Dorian doesn't really give Sodium an easy way out, but I wouldn't call that a scumtell - it's a viable way to force another player to open up and put some statements out there. Those statements can then be analyzed(snip)
In the end, the correct answer is just to say "He's a bad player." But I believe that a Naive Townie would be much more likely to try and analyze the previous poster's thoughts before giving up on it like sodium did.So your logic is that the contradiction arises simply because CO2 is a bad player? o_o
No opinion on Zak. Just call him the Alice stand-in for this game.By which you mean...what? Lurking But Still Contributing Something Of Use Alice or Lurking And Being Generally Useless Alice?
If I've got an opinion on Affinity, I'm keeping it to myself....Sometimes you make me wish I had two votes instead of one. :|
Occam's RazorYeah, Occam's Razor doesn't really apply to Mafia games (as someone told me a few games back). For the sake of example, let's look at Alice's claim in Workers' Union. 'His claim is legitimate and he's really a doc' is indeed the simpler answer, but 'His claim is fake and he's coming up with excuses as to why he can't kill as he goes along' is the correct one. Just because something is simple doesn't mean it's probably right here.
You better stop with the conspiracy theories if you don't want to burst some veins. It's for your own physical health.ITT subtle attempts to distract me from playing via health concerns.
My point is that mafia is mostly about deciding which is more probable.But Occam's Razor explicitly states 'it's more likely because it's simpler'. It's basically the logical equivalent of taking the easy way out.
but the point I've seen brought up most often against my argument is "just because it's probable doesn't mean it's certain."Where exactly does anyone say this? Because I don't remember anyone saying anything along these lines.
Critical Thinking PHL 105I assume your professor was Hershel Layton.
Of course, a smart scummy player would know what a naive townie's reaction would be. Anyone can feign play that's ordinarily below his level.Here, Serp counters my point by saying there's a chance Sodium was playing badly on purpose.
saying that 'bad players aren't necessarily scummy' and then following it up with 'naive townies are more likely to be bad' doesn't do it for me.Affinity doesn't actively deny that it's likely, but instead implies that being more likely isn't a good enough reason to believe something.
Yeah, Occam's Razor doesn't really apply to Mafia games (as someone told me a few games back).I already explained my thoughts on this in post 418
But Occam's Razor explicitly states 'it's more likely because it's simpler'. It's basically the logical equivalent of taking the easy way out.Yukkuri shiteitte ne!
Now I can see how a mafioso would try to justify the previous poster's actions, especially if he thinks there's a mark against him, but in the case of Dorian I think a mafioso would be much more inclined to just say forget it. It is possible a bad mafioso player to try it anyway, so I'm not debunking it's possibility completely.So why is a bad mafioso willing to ignore it and a bad townie isn't?
As for the contradiction, I'm actually having trouble finding where the contradiction is. in 326 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg45525#msg45525) He tries to analyze Dorian's thought process, and ends up with the conclusion that he was playing like a clueless newbie. He continues his following posts saying that Dorian's reasoning was alright considering Dorian was a clueless newbie. The outbreak in his post 355 is just Sodium admitting he's can't fully justify Dorian's actions because Dorian was posting like a Clueless newbie.Pesco asks him what he thought of Dorian's reasoning here. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg45574#msg45574) He responds 'It made sense at the time since there was a possible connection' (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg45577#msg45577), and later says his points were reasonable and acceptable. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg45612#msg45612) Then he turns around and screams DORIAN HAS PRODUCED NOTHING USEFUL (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg45813#msg45813). THERE'S your contradiction.
I didn exactly see the answer I wanted from Carthrat.CLARIFY THIS.
I didn exactly see the answer I wanted from Carthrat.CLARIFY THIS.
I swear if you actually flip Town after all of this bullshit I will have a Battler-level mental breakdown.
I don't think you're scum, so yeah. You're just hilariously anti-town...which is a pretty good reason to vote you actually, but not yet.I think I just died a little inside.
Oh, and Roukan, just because they're acceptable from someone who is essentially clueless newbie+Wrathie, doesn't mean it isn't BAD. Everything potentially good he said was said before, or explained later in a much clearer way. Being called clueless newbie + Wrathie isn't good in the first place, especially if it's supposed to make it sound not as harsh.I've already expressed my complaints about this - Dorian basically IIoA'd his vote, Affinity pulled some hidden meaning out of nowhere, and Dorian replied 'yeah that's what i meant'. In the event that Pesco flips Town despite all his bullshit I'd suggest him as a potential buddy based on this.
and that should leave at least 2 confirmed for tomorrowEven Satorimindhax isn't 100% accurate. If you flip Town that doesn't make all of your suspicions instantly true. >_>
Congrats Sodium, you are now modconfirmed.You assume that scum aren't aware of this. They could easily get equally useless roles in their fakeclaims.
Yes, Roukanken, you may have your aneurism now.Many thanks.
76 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg42428#msg42428): HEY GUYS, YOU ONLY GET ONE RVS POST. Overreacting much?
101 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg42654#msg42654): After Nuke melts down, proceeds to say 'you're terrible but I don't want to put you to L-1'. In restrospect, why is L-1 such a bad thing to do? It necessitates a claim, but if you're so supicious of him then a claim is exactly what you want. And I doubt any Townie with half a brain cell would quicklynch on DAY FREAKING 1.
Alright, I've been holding Zakeri as my secondary or terciary lynch pretty much all game.Actually like I just said you pulled him up out of the blue D2 so uh
My point was a valid one - that once you've got something solid to comment on, there's no excuse to just make an "I'm here and here's my clever way of confirming that without drawing too much attention to myself" post.How solid is 'your response is too serious, RVS is RUINED FOREVER!'?
I didn't want to bring him to L-2, to be precise. Pesco had stated intent to vote him as well, but had not yet done so. Maybe a bit over-cautious on my part, but I was worried that someone else would bring him to L-1, and that a clueless townie (say, Dorian) would accidentally hammer him. Or, alternately, that he'd self-hammer.You admit that L-2 is awfully nervous, which is one of my points. But why are you okay with Pesco bringing him to L-2?
So I'm voting him because:+Defending me for no reason(forgot this at the time of that post)
Donut vote at Day 1(little reason, the wagon swinger)
Other various Day points from Day 2(Kiro's 250 is nice)
General lurkiness(RL probably the cause, so this isn't really major or anything)
"Oh hey Serp, post more, while some other people and I haven't posted all that much either"
"If x were scum" WIFOM
Posting not much after coming back from 48 hours without posting(not really important as it was at the time of my vote)
I'm trying to prove a point here;Pesco is a vanilla townie, but he was advertising himself as...Town Asprin Addict...because that's what it said in his role PM. =V
I could claim myself as Town Cool Guy(Flavoured Useless) if I were going to be lynched, but for the sake of not complicating things, I would've just said "vanilla townie", as that's what it essentially is. Pesco choose the Flavoured Useless claim for some reason.
153 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg42904#msg42904): 'Screw it, I'm voting the lurker.'
The problem I have with this move from him is that it just feels...not at all like Serp. Just compare this to his play in Yume Nikki Day 1...it doesn't feel like he'd just go for the easy way out like this. :/
Why so unwilling to cut him some slack when he looks like he has no idea what the hell he's doing?
For the record, Serp, how does this logic hold considering this was Dorian's first game here? Unless his teammate told him explicitly 'Don't post', it wouldn't make any sense. Then gives two (very simple and obvious) points against Dorian and says that he's done proving his case.
Forgive me for WIFOM, but doesn't it feel a little too easy making a case on Dorian?
202 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg43334#msg43334): Donut's giving up and admitting he can't hunt? Eh, Dorian's still worse.
Interesting how his opinion on Donut has changed from 'lynch Pesco first' in 161 to 'lynch Donut first' in 202, as a side note.
Alright, I've been holding Zakeri as my secondary or terciary lynch pretty much all game.Actually like I just said you pulled him up out of the blue D2 so uh
312 (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg45386#msg45386): Declares suspicion of Pesco and Zak, still no mention as to why Suwa fell off his scumdar. You can't specify that you're watching a player and then NOT SAY ANYTHING about them, surely.
ASDF this is hard let's just take the easy way out today since Alice gave it the OK
##Vote: No Lynch
How solid is 'your response is too serious, RVS is RUINED FOREVER!'?
You admit that L-2 is awfully nervous, which is one of my points. But why are you okay with Pesco bringing him to L-2?
Plus why is Dorian suddenly a clueless Townie to you? Were you honestly thinking on D1 that he could potentially mess it up as a Townie?
Sodium: I did read that post, I thought I explicitly mentioned you replied to me like that, hence why it should be clear that I read it. In general, I do think some of the earlier points are valid opinions (mainly the lurkiness). I'm more worried about the timing and the 'trigger' reason, so to speak.What is the trigger reason? If you mean the WIFOM, that wasn't the biggest;the biggest was his "SERP POST MORE" after he was gone for 48 hours, and there are people that posted less then Serp.
My point is that at that particular point in the day, one could make the reasonable assumption that Pesco was a shoe-in for lynch, and thus short of something totally crazy would be able to do pretty much anything they liked and still expect that to go through.Wat? So if there's a shoe-in lynch, we can't talk about/pursue anything else?
In this case, throwaway vote on Zak + distancing from pesco lynch is the concerning figure. Pesco's claim was pretty much meaningless in the end; I dimly recall it being pointed out yesterday, but it's bizzare to take it that as credence of his townhood.Why is it bizzare to take it as credence of his townhood? Aside from how Pesco was being an ass about it in general, I mean.
I still want to know why you didn't vote Zak earlier in the day if you had all this stuff on him (particular after you unvoted Pesco, given that you've already said you've been worried about him for ages.)When did I say I was worried about him for ages? o.o
As for other stuff, calling NF a confirmed townie on day one due to no counterclaim was totally weird and not something I'd expect out a townie. In fact, this brings into light that you've been clinging closely to role-related stuff on clearing now-known townies in lieu of, y'know, actual reasons.Why should I list the people I think are town? I have other people I think are town with reasons, but I simply don't say it unless it's relevant. I'd give an example if you want me to. The times I said someone is town is because it was relevant to the situation at hand, and they both happened to have role related reasons.
If there are better targets, then they should be lynched, yeah.Why are Pesco and Donut not bigger targets to you? Why is inactivity a much bigger crime than defending each other, or giving up, or all of the other scumtells they had on themselves at that point?
keep in mind that I was one of the few that wanted to lynch Mr Alert, that game's lurker, too. He wasn't my primary lynch, and he was even lurkier than Dorian had been, but I just ended up making a different judgement call in that game."I'm just trying a new playing style this game!" Best way to dissuade differences between a person's scum play and town play or what? Even excusing it as a different judgement call, why did you decide that lynching an inactive person took more priority over informational lynches or potential Scum?
Which is worse, the guy that's apparently almost giving up, or the guy that already has given up?Trick question. It's the one that's acting scummier.
You and I could WIFOM in circles all week on this subject. For something you call an easy way out, I've caught a lot of flak for taking it, ...I believe you called it the easy way first, in post 153. You also said you would take a lot of flak for it, which you are. I'd like to know what you define as an Easy lynch because, from a townie standpoint it doesn't make sense. From a townie standpoint, there are only two kinds of lynches. Right ones, and Myslynches. From a Mafia perspective, however, there are all kinds of lynches. Hard ones, Easy ones, Bad ones. And the only reason someone would take Flak for an Easy one is because as the name implies, an Easy lynch is one that by default gains very little resistance.
Why should I list the people I think are town? I have other people I think are town with reasons, but I simply don't say it unless it's relevant. I'd give an example if you want me to. The times I said someone is town is because it was relevant to the situation at hand, and they both happened to have role related reasons.
Okay, I'm starting to get a little overwhelmed by the burst of WoTs here, and I'm worried that if we leave it like this it'll be nothing but arguing minute points for a week, which doesn't really help Town that much. Based on that, I decided to come up with something which is original and pretty important at this point in the game: potential scumpairs. In the end we can argue smaller points about scuminess all we want, but what matters is which TWO players are working together to kill off the entirety of the Town.
Serp makes little/no mention of Carth as a suspect for the whole game, but despite this feels the need to point out 'Pesco-Carth scumpair is unlikely' during D3. Why?
basically, I'm offset by his 153. The one where he votes Dorian. Of note, he mentions Pesco - that he's acting like his scummy self, and that he seems to be evading Rou's questionings. He then notes that Lynching Pesco would be a good idea because it would bring Valuable information on Donut and Nuke. Then he votes for an inactive person. WHY IS LYNCHING AN INACTIVE PERSON MORE IMPORTANT THAT AN INFORMATIONAL LYNCH THAT COULD LIKELY HELP US FIND SCUM!? No, Seriously, this alone signals to me that you're working for Scum interest. I would just love to see how you explain this.
You're right, we could choose to lynch Dorian to minimize Risk and Reward, or Nuke to Maximize Risk and Reward.
But, by the End of 174, you use the idea as a Guiding rule, stating that if we're not lynching Dorian, we should be Lynching Nuke. You gave us a standard issue "Either Or" Situation. "Either Dorian Or Nuke" This is a logical Fallacy, and one that I have never seen used by a townie.
in 178 you mention that we should add other factors other than a person's scumminess when choosing who to lynch. I agree with this in part, but you seem to be putting more emphasis on such other parts.
You say at the top of the post that this is why you feel Dorian is scummier than Pesco and Donut. then, at the Bottom of the post, you bring up two arbitrary points of scumminess against him. What this basically tells me if that you've convinced yourself he's scum before finding reasons he's scum. Not Scumhunting.
Also, where exactly did that Rant From Effort being Penalized Come from? Especially since it seemed to be in reply to Dorian trying to prod Donut for a legitimately scummy action.
Why are Pesco and Donut not bigger targets to you? Why is inactivity a much bigger crime than defending each other, or giving up, or all of the other scumtells they had on themselves at that point?
Post 208 is nothing more than a giant Mod-enforced Backtrack. According to this post, Since Dorian was replaced by an Active Player, the idea that an Inactive player remaining until Lylo no longer holds water. I disagree in that it never held water in the first place.
"I'm just trying a new playing style this game!" Best way to dissuade differences between a person's scum play and town play or what? Even excusing it as a different judgement call, why did you decide that lynching an inactive person took more priority over informational lynches or potential Scum?
I believe you called it the easy way first, in post 153. You also said you would take a lot of flak for it, which you are. I'd like to know what you define as an Easy lynch because, from a townie standpoint it doesn't make sense. From a townie standpoint, there are only two kinds of lynches. Right ones, and Myslynches. From a Mafia perspective, however, there are all kinds of lynches. Hard ones, Easy ones, Bad ones. And the only reason someone would take Flak for an Easy one is because as the name implies, an Easy lynch is one that by default gains very little resistance.
I don't see how knowing you'd get flak for an easy lynch makes going for an Easy lynch more justifiable. Also, Pre-deflecting future claims of deflecting doesn't help justify it either.
Thus, he is currently at the top of my list now. On the upside, I sense some scumhunting, especially since he did not choose the easy lynches, but the reasonings are lacking.
@Serp
Serp, I question you OMGUSing Zakeri, whilst claiming that Zakeri is OMGUSing you. WTF?
Then you meta clear Roukan, instead of citing, his general pro-town actions.
I like how you say that Zakeri's conduct implicates me as scumbuddy without any reasons. =3
Hmm woah omgus to the max is going down here, okay. I like how Serp basically goes 'yeah whatever partners with Zak are more plausible' and then doesn't elaborate at all, since at this stage if you're confident enough to slam a vote down you should be confident to have some ideas on pairings, too. Not that Zak is really any better in this regard, but it didn't occur to me until Serp mentioned his non-opinion there.
Already answered, you say... if you mean here then all I see is a core difference between us in what makes a legitimate lynch, and it's not easing my concern at all.
As for my case on Sodium, consider how he took pesco and NF as confirmed town at different stages. Remember that mafia is a game about an uninformed and uncertain majority vs. knowledgable minority (i.e. scum.) The minority here knows alignments and can make that judgement with certainty, which is how his posts read. How can you not at least see the thrust of it?
And yeah, I'm writting my post now. Might take a while though. =V
Point taken, but, uh, I hope that doesn't mean you're going to refuse to comment on the cases against individual players.I have no intention of doing that, but the problem is that as we're standing right now everyone seems to have their own case that they'll refuse to budge on. By asking people 'OK, you have your suspect but who are they working with?' we get people to consider other players, plus otherwise we'll be arguing little points until the end of time.
Oh yeah, then you randomly say that Dorian's too scummy to be scum comment was town-like.*facedesk* You then basically say what Affinity's been saying all game. "Dorian brought up good original points".Except no, that's not what he means at all. And by the way. congrats on pulling another 180 on your opinion of Dorian (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg45813#msg45813).
Also, Dorian's posts were shit. There, happy? I was trying to give reasons to why they were shit(while not using that word), such as him being a newbie, and the reasons that he posted, but the posts were completely useless(WHY DONUT IS SUSPICIOUS AFTER EVERYONE ALREADY SAID WHY) and/or vague("that", what the fuck is "that"?) and/or BAD(TOO SCUMMY TO BE SCUM). If this isn't what you're looking for, PLEASE , tell me what you are looking for. Either way, I get the short end of the stick here.Why are you suddenly agreeing with Affinity's statement that Dorian was making good points when you were saying exactly the opposite back on Day 3?
This is his first serious post of the game. In it, he says that he thinks Donut is blatantly lying about his voting motives, and that that "might" be scummy. Follows that with points against several people, but in this post he unvotes and doesn't put that vote on anyone else. Flighty.This point is accepted against Zak, but 'blatantly lying' feels like misrep here. Townies would also want to avoid an argument they couldn't win mainly because it achieves nothing for Town, so avoiding an argument isn't necessarily a scumtell.
What gets me is the way that he brings up a bunch of scummy quotes against Pesco, then suddenly backs off, while saying in the same post that he's not going to make the "mistake of defending Pesco again." And who does he go after? The claimed cop. Am I the only one that sees this as a bad thing on D1? We had other good cases and little to lose by letting him stick around another day.
Post 123 - Seeing Rou's Comments, Rou is starting to sound like an Angry house Wife. Pesco is beginning to redeam himself by trying to explain his thought process, and since I can see how Town Pesco can act the way he did, I'm willing to back off for now.This is what we call reasoning, Serp. Zak was doing a post-by-post, UK-style, so as he went on he started to comprehend where Pesco was coming from.
Note that in voting for Donut, he cites two posts that both happened before he said he was entirely unhappy with the Donut wagon. This is another really important point. Inconsistency is not a town tell. He did a complete 180 on his stance. He also goes back to defending Pesco. >_>He explains that the reason he switched his opinion is because Donut's vote is still on Dorian, (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg43315#msg43315) and the question he'd asked in he previous post had gone unanswered.
A post-hammer post purely to defend Doridium here.- Most likely a ninja, so the 'post-hammer' point is moot
The point of interest here is the kneejerk chainsaw against me.What chainsaw? I have no idea what you're referring to here.
Effectively says here "I have a good reason to vote Serp in my own head, but I'm not going to share it with you."Besides how he didn't approve of your vote on Dorian ahead of Donut?
Here he aims to explain his train of thought. In so doing, he blatantly mischaracterizes my point against Dorian, points out his own self-contradiction with a weak attempt at justification, and completely backtracks on Affinity.I accept this point.
Back to being anti-Pesco here, now that it's D3.He gave reasoning based on what Pesco had done on D3 (meta and asking to be lynched), so I don't see why this is a particularly bad point.
More defense of Sodium here and here. He seems to be trying to set up Roukanken for a LyLo lynch. Also more mischaracterization of me. He continues to defend Sodium's defense of Dorian for the next few posts.
As for Sodium, I think he's opening himself up to be victimized by Roukanken and Pesco.Wow, that's the most aggressive defense I've ever seen.
Scum knows who's Town, so they know that all the cases against people other than themselves are wrong. Rather than evaluating cases based on how valid they look, Scum only care about getting enough mislynches to win.Couldn't you argue that Sodium is equally guilty of this given his defense of Pesco yesterday? He went from attacking him to suddenly deciding 'OH WAIT YOU HAVE A JOKE ROLE UNVOTE PLOX', and went on to insist that he only hammered because the majority wanted Pesco dead. Flighty voting later in the game is worse than flighty voting early on, surely.
Wait, what? Roukan, I was talking about what Zakeri said. Zakeri said " but still he(Dorian) brought up important and original points that added to the discussion.", and I was noting that it was similar to what Affinity was saying for essentially the whole game.Then what's your point here? Do you not like this point because the source itself is wrong, or is it wrong because Zakeri isn't allowed to agree with Affinity for some reason?
Because Pesco's lynch would only be really informative if he flipped scum,So the fact that Pesco might have been town is enough to excuse trying to gain Information for the town? The main goal of town for the first few days is the gain information, not mislynches.
and in that same post you cite, I pointed out that nothing in Pesco's initial behavior seemed scummy to me. Yes, I noted that he was being a little evasive, but as I said, I didn't consider that sufficient reason to go after him.You see, this is why waffling is scummy. In this post, you sat on the Fence, stating that Pesco gives you a bad feeling while initially saying he's not caught on your radar. This lets you decide later what your opinion in that post was. I see this as a backtracking attempt.
Why is lynching a slightly scummy player a better move than sacrificing a useless inactive one (who may well be scum himself, I remind you) and giving everyone involved more time to either redeem themselves or cement their scumminess?Because lynching the slightly scummy player will give more information than lynching the guy that has yet to produce solid opinions on anyone. If the scummy player turns up town, we still can determine who is scum by bandwagon analysis on that person. If he was scum, then we're that much closer to winning, since we can relate everything he's said to others knowing he had scummy intentions. If we lynched the inactive person, and he winds up Scum, then we still have little information, despite the having one less scum, and if he turned up town, then We would have NO information and a mislynch.
You acknowledge what I was trying to say, and then you deliberately misinterpret that same statement to mean something completely different. I'm not even sure what you're trying to do here.Am I the one misinterpreting it? What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to present how the post looks.
If anything, only the opposite position makes sense - lynching Nuke and letting Dorian live. After all, Nuke has been really scummy, while Dorian doesn't have much credit either way.You state in the very part that I presented that the only possible way you can understand not lynching Dorian was if we decided to Lynch Nuke instead. Why did you say that? Why did you say that our reason for not voting Dorian means we should be voting for Nuke?
And then you acknowledge that there's nothing wrong with weighting scumminess with other factors. So you don't mind putting more emphasis on lurky players, yet your whole case on me is based on your dislike of how much emphasis I put on inactivity? You really think that's the strongest case on anyone, now that we're in LyLo?You're missing the point. The point is I don't disagree with how much emphasis you put on Lurkiness. The point is that you don't seem to put any emphasis on Scummy posting. The following point I made in my previous post covers why I say this: It wasn't until the bottom of the post you say that you're convinced Dorian's inactivity made him scummy enough to be lynched that you actually come up with reasons why Dorian looked scummy. The Premises came after the Conclusion, which as I've said is not scumhunting. More importantly, you never got around to presenting what Dorian has done besides be inactive until Kiro prodded you on that point.
I cited two posts, yes. He made four post-RVS posts in total. A full 50% of his posts were scummy.Here's a Science Question:
I'd like to remind you that I was wrong in that game.I'd also like to remind you that Town won in that game. People were able to determine that Sodium, who replaced in for Mr. Alert, was in fact Scum. Also noted that Sodium replaced Dorian in this game, and since then you claim to have had the general feeling he's been town. Do you still believe that Inactivity is given so much of a pass that it ruin's town's chances of winning the game?
After all, scum just needs to rack up a certain number of mislynches to win the game. It doesn't matter how those mislynches are obtained.It does Matter how these Mislynches are Obtained. Like say, if someone was being inactive Day 1, it would be easier to convince the town to lynch that person before he comes back or gets replaced by someone who puts more effort into the game. Like Carthrat and I said before, People like Dorian are much more transparent the longer they stay alive and active in the game. They make for very good day one mislynches, but as time passes, it gets harder and harder to lynch them (Mainly because their 50% scummy post ratio tends to drop further and further towards the 20% ratio.)
Well, here we have Zakeri ignoring all my points against him and instead responding with pure OMGUS.Wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Ignoring all of your points prevent it from being OMGUS? Doesn't OMGUS spawn from reading through all of your points, and then voting for you for making those points?
I'm still convinced Serpentarius was voting Dorian with intent on making him a Mislynch, which would in turn mean Sodium is actually a townie.Why then was Serp so quiet around Sodium, even after saying 'I AM GOING TO PAY ATTENTION TO YOU'?
I'm certain there's bussing involved in a Serp/Buddies relationship going on, Mainly in that Affinity would benefit most from disagreeing with Serpentarius's Reason for voting Dorian.
I seem to be getting good vibes from Serp; would need more time to reread him.Not really seeing how he would benefit after saying something like this about scum in Lylo.
This is his first serious post of the game. In it, he says that he thinks Donut is blatantly lying about his voting motives, and that that "might" be scummy. Follows that with points against several people, but in this post he unvotes and doesn't put that vote on anyone else. Flighty.
He thinks better of it half an hour later and posts this, voting Pesco and saying that Donut strikes him as Town.
The post here is a complete mess.All the better to make it seem like I'm contradicting myself, isn't it?
He says his vote is effectively on Nuke, but then forgets that later in the post, when he says that he doesn't know where to take his vote.This proves that you're trying to ignore the fact that I wasn't voting Nuke because he copclaimed. I said at the very point you mentioned that Nuke was the only one I felt comfy leaving my vote, and that I didn't because I agreed we should leave the cop a free pass for day one.
and picks up his habit of defending Dorian Sodium Doridium.I defended Dorian because I thought that your reasoning for lynching him was bad. My awkward defence of Sodium on day three comes from the bad memories I had while defending Dorian against you. It wasn't until I properly took the time to read through your argument like I did on page 15 that I realized WHY I thought Dorian was town. Namely that I've always had a feeling you were targeting him for scummy reasons and that I don't think You would Bus Dorian like that, especially if he was the only other scum buddy there.
Now, the infamous bandwagon swinging post here.Congratulations on your first valid point against me. I've already said this when Kiro voted me for it on day two (Wait, why did you wait until today to complain about me so loudly? And you blame me for waiting this long to make a case on you.) And it's that at the time, I felt none of the day one bandwagons were good ones. I voted for Donut because as I said in that post, I felt he was least likely to be town or work for town interest. I felt that at the time, making no vote, or making a vote that wasn't on any of the bandwagons would be counterproductive. I also don't see how flipping the bandwagon away from Pesco makes me Scummy, since Pesco was Town, and Donut was just as likely to make things worse for the town as Pesco and Nuke did.
A post-hammer post purely toFixed.defend DoridiumAttack Serpentarius here.
The point of interest here is the kneejerk chainsaw against me. I think that Zakeri was looking for a way to discredit me, but hadn't come up with anything, but forgot that he hadn't come up with anything when writing this post."Kneejerk Chainsaw"? "Looking for a way to discredit you"? Are you sure you're not doing that "I think he's scum, therefore this looks scummy" thing like you did with Dorian on day one? I don't see how my prodding you at the beginning of day two could be seen as inherently scummy on it's own merits.
Back to being anti-Pesco here, now that it's D3.In my defense, Pesco started off day 3 by acting really scummy (316). (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg45415#msg45415)
He seems to be trying to set up Roukanken for a LyLo lynch.What exactly about those posts do I look like I'm setting things up for a Rou lynch? You can't just say it so distantly, and then let others go "Oh, yeah, I kind of see it."
Why then was Serp so quiet around Sodium, even after saying 'I AM GOING TO PAY ATTENTION TO YOU'?Serp Ended his reign against Dorian by saying that since Sodium replaced in, his main reason for lynching Dorian (That Dorian, if we waited until Lylo to lynch him, would lose us the game for flipping town) is no longer Valid. He then continues to Ignore Sodium as a possible lynch until people started jumping on Sodium for for his interactions with Pesco.
Not really seeing how he would benefit after saying something like this about scum in Lylo.The benefit mostly comes from spending most of his time opposing the Dorian/Sodium lynch while trying to remain neutral looking on Dorian/Sodium. This basically lets me take all of the Flak for opposing Serpentarius, while Affinity can get some town cred if Serp was lynched.
Donut vote at Day 1(little reason, the wagon swinger)I know I had put myself into a bad position there, but whether I was voted Donut or Pesco, I could be accused of the same wagon swinging point. Unless of course Sodium was actually scum. In the end, it was basically just a huge gamble in my part, but I took it anyway knowing I'd probably lose.
Other various Day points from Day 2(Kiro's 250 is nice)
General lurkiness(RL probably the cause, so this isn't really major or anything)I still felt Serpentarius was attempting to phantom his way through day three. Serpentarius's latest post when I said that was of him saying he's endorses the Modkill on me, while prefer Pesco's lynch to go through. He hadn't said too much outside of his first post, either. And yes, I'm aware I'm being a hypocrate.
"Oh hey Serp, post more, while some other people and I haven't posted all that much either"
Posting not much after coming back from 48 hours without posting
"If x were scum" WIFOMAgain, the point was that I felt town was more likely to do "x" than scum was, but that's not how everyone saw it, I guess.
+Defending me for no reason(forgot this at the time of that post)Umm, yeah. Again, I was working off mostly my gut when I defended you, since I'm still hooked up on what looks like Serpentarius trying to get a mislynch out of Dorian. And Finally, I've rectified that last point now.
+Zakeri didn't even say anything about my vote on him(new point)
WHY DONUT IS SUSPICIOUS AFTER EVERYONE ALREADY SAID WHY
...Well that was stupid of me. =V It really should've been NF as I was refering to Dorian's 73, where he repeats what several have already said. In my defense of my stupid ass name mixing up, I was somewhat frustrated when I posted that.QuoteWHY DONUT IS SUSPICIOUS AFTER EVERYONE ALREADY SAID WHYI would be happy if you could point how exactly this is the case. No one else pointed out what he pointed out.
Besides doing a donut 180 on Serp, you also go ahead and accuse both Serp and Zakeri of OMGUSing each other, which is a logical impossibility. You also seem to misunderstand the concept of OMGUS entirely; you cite them voting each other as such and completely refuse to mention anything else they have said against each other, which is what is important.Serp makes an argument against Zak
You also dance on the issue of Dorian; accusing Serp for voting him on D1 and saying that everything he did on D1 was horribleWhat I find ironic here is that you were berating someone previously for only looking at the votes instead of the reason for the votes. The reason I didn't like Serp's D1 vote on Dorian was the reason, which was originally "Lynch Dorian, he's a lurker omfg". It then evolved throughout the game, but then there was him "keeping an eye on me", and proceeding to do NOTHING about it.
Thought you were okay for your past day actions, but today really seems faulty.You pointed out something I wrote a couple days ago in Day 3. Why didn't you point it out previously? =3 I agree that today seems really faulty, perhaps I need more rest.
Also, some logical fallacies such as the 'pill' example he gave is completely ludicrous; Mafia is not an exact science, and if 50% of a person's posts is scummy, it's best to conclude that that person is scummier than everyone else.You break my Heart, Affinity. I thought you would know better.
you were assuming that Dorian wouldn't ever do anything useful
get killed later
or be replaced
This point is accepted against Zak, but 'blatantly lying' feels like misrep here. Townies would also want to avoid an argument they couldn't win mainly because it achieves nothing for Town, so avoiding an argument isn't necessarily a scumtell.
- You're misinterpreting the point of the post - it isn't meant to defend Dorian, it was meant to show that Donut was basically everything Dorian did but worse.
Couldn't you argue that Sodium is equally guilty of this given his defense of Pesco yesterday? He went from attacking him to suddenly deciding 'OH WAIT YOU HAVE A JOKE ROLE UNVOTE PLOX', and went on to insist that he only hammered because the majority wanted Pesco dead. Flighty voting later in the game is worse than flighty voting early on, surely.
Because lynching the slightly scummy player will give more information than lynching the guy that has yet to produce solid opinions on anyone. If the scummy player turns up town, we still can determine who is scum by bandwagon analysis on that person. If he was scum, then we're that much closer to winning, since we can relate everything he's said to others knowing he had scummy intentions. If we lynched the inactive person, and he winds up Scum, then we still have little information, despite the having one less scum, and if he turned up town, then We would have NO information and a mislynch.
I would also like you to know that your point on Dorian being trouble for us In Lylo is still bullcrap. One mislynch doesn't win the game for scum. It's four mislynches. If we had lynched Donut, Pesco, and Another townie before Dorian, it would be exactly the same as having lynched Dorian first, only Dorian wouldn't have provided the town with nearly as much information the other way around. Lynching Dorian provided the exact same risk of him turning up as town as it would have in Lylo.
QuoteA post-hammer post purely toFixed.defend DoridiumAttack Serpentarius here.
B for Roukanken Block. B looks enough like an R. =VHow 'minute' is suddenly deciding that Serpentarius is the devil incarnate? You can't just dismiss a case by saying 'it's too picky' when it involves you throwing around your vote like there's no tomorrow.
I like how you're pointing out minute points despite worrying that that's what we're going to be doing all of Day 4.
Oh, and I was just pointing out how similar what Zakeri was saying compared to what Affinity was saying. It was just an observation.In other words, IIoA. Nice work there.
You're point that 50% of Dorian's posts looked scummy means exactly as much as the above point about the pills working 50% of the time. It was apparent more than Anything that Dorian needed more time to produce posts before we could accurately tell if he was scummy or not.Uh, except that one of the reasons he was scummy to people was that he wasn't producing posts?
I would also like you to know that your point on Dorian being trouble for us In Lylo is still bullcrap. One mislynch doesn't win the game for scum. It's four mislynches. If we had lynched Donut, Pesco, and Another townie before Dorian, it would be exactly the same as having lynched Dorian first, only Dorian wouldn't have provided the town with nearly as much information the other way around. Lynching Dorian provided the exact same risk of him turning up as town as it would have in Lylo.Except we'd ALSO be risking not getting more information from the three Townies we lynched earlier. Why is getting information from Dorian so much more important than anything else?
Saying 50% of someone's posts is scummy means jack shit when they posted four times in the first half of day one and at least one of those times can be interpreted as null or even as town. I could start a game and make a post saying "Go Scum!" Another post randomly voting for the Mod, and then make a PBPA of everything that happened for the entire day and why I feel "x" would be the town's best lynch for the day, and still at least 66% of my posting would be scummy. Scum can go ahead and say "50% of what he posted was scummy" When really, he's only posted two things that could be interpreted as scummy.Oh God, where the hell do I begin with this. Where the HELL do I begin. Let's see.
To compare, I had more bulletpoints against Donut, Pesco, and Nuke half way through day one than Serp ever had on Dorian.Well, how many bulletpoints can you possibly make out of 'HE'S NOT FREAKING POSTING ANYTHING OTHER THAN UTTER CRAP'? Whatever happened to Quality Over Quantity?
Serp, I question you OMGUSing Zakeri, whilst claiming that Zakeri is OMGUSing you. WTF?
@Zakeri:
Nice, you OMGUS Serp, citing something he did Day 1, with little outside of Day 1.
Serp makes an argument against Zak
Zak make an argument against Serp, votes Serp
Serp goes WTF? and then votes Zakeri, while claiming Zakeri's vote was OMGUS. That's the OMGUS vote from Serp
So yeah, while it's logically impossible, Serp apparently thinks that Zakeri was OMGUSing(not on a vote, but a case)(despite it having a case with it) him, and responds by voting him, which might as well be OMGUS because that was the trigger reason.
You're falling into the same trap Roukanken is - picking apart the little inconsistencies in wording while leaving the big unexplained opinion swings untouched. For example, Sodium's words regarding Nuke were "somewhat of a confirmed townie," which is a contradiction, but he was clearly trying to say "he looks townish" and just screwed up his wording. That sort of slip-up can reveal a scum mindset, yes - as I said on D3, I didn't find the initial points against Sodium compelling, but I found his reaction to pressure scummy. That just doesn't compare with Zakeri's conduct, which is scummy in itself. I get frustrated when people don't seem to be seeing the same stuff I am.
So then we should never ever lynch an inactive player because he'll never give information? Doesn't that mean we just give them a free ticket to LyLo?
Rou: elaborate on Zak 'coming apart at the seams' and why he's somehow much worse than Serp at this point. I'm seeing more connective vibes between Serp and Sodium than Zak and Sodium.Half of what he's spouting is just plain logical fallacy, things like 'Lynching lurkers is bad because it means they don't get to stop being lurkers' and 'Just because half your posts are scummy doesn't mean anyone has any reason to suspect you if you're lurking'. And THIS is the guy who was complaining yesterday about how we didn't use Occam's Razor enough!
I was initially unkeen to agree with Serp's Zak case given that the earlier points against him were somewhat lacking, but today he's pretty much coming apart at the seams. Reading these last few posts I'm beginning to wonder if this whole attack on Serp from Zak isn't a chainsaw to protect Sodium. Dammit, every single one of my other cases revolves around Sodium's flip one way or another. >_>
I don't get this. You're going 'I don't see your case. Ok, actually I do, and it's legitimate, but mine's still better because um yours is just details!' That's a bit different from 'there is no case', which is what I got from you earlier.
Why should I list the people I think are town? I have other people I think are town with reasons, but I simply don't say it unless it's relevant. I'd give an example if you want me to. The times I said someone is town is because it was relevant to the situation at hand, and they both happened to have role related reasons.
It then evolved throughout the game, but then there was him "keeping an eye on me", and proceeding to do NOTHING about it.
Also, what do you mean your cases revolve around Sodium's flip? From here it looks like you're confident enough to pick targets based on the likelihood of scumpartnership.Basically what I'm saying is that I've gone beyond 'is X scum' and expanded into 'What are the odds of X being Sodium's buddy?'. Sodium is the point from which all of my cases currently expand, to be honest.
Furthermore, he says that his biggest reason for the vote was because he didn't like Zakeri's point against me.Does that make THIS vote a chainsaw defending Serp from Zak? When Zak made a chainsaw defending Sodium from Serp? Oh god, my brain hurts.
tl;dr: Stop using me as a Pesco replacement. A Frog is not a Rabbit.So, so tempted to call AtE on this.
But all your doing is relating everything back to a single person. You could consider other scumpairs that don't include me. You and Serp are doing this, although Serp is doing it with Zakeri instead of me. It's tunneling.I've already considered every possible scumpair. (http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php?topic=1128.msg48826#msg48826) The only ones that seem relatively viable to me are You/Aff, You/Serp, You/Zak, Serp/Aff (which is less likely based on their declared trust of each other - stupid move for scum to make especially in Lylo) and possibly Serp/Carth (their debate during D1 over Dorian seems far too early for this).
Anyways, there are 4 Days left. No need for town to lose just because you think I've given up. I'm actually reading the stuff, although just not commenting because there's nothing I can comment on right now.Well get commenting, then. You're not going to improve your position by saying 'I'm reading, gimme a little time'.
Also, I note that Affinity in your "Three people I'm suspicious of" has been replaced by Zakeri. Without any mention of Affinity in your posts at all.He hasn't done anything D4 that I particularly accrue as scummy, unlike Zak.
And Carth might as well just be copying your base thoughts, then digging up whatever proof you haven't said yet.I could accuse you of doing the same with the case on Zakeri.
"*Has defended Dorian despite how he said that he said Dorian was scummier then most*"
"Sodium, you're defending Dorian while saying that all his posts sucked"
Using the word 'we' is also rather socialist, I think, which is ironic because he makes himself to be pretty important in that post.I just don't understand how Town can really be enjoying this, since it's such a precarious setup and we have no real concrete suspects anywhere. By 'we' I assumed that everyone else was having as rough a time of this as I was. Am I wrong?
The difference is that in LyLo, every townie player is vital. There is no margin for error. Scum are just one vote away from being able to fillibuster any lynchmob. If that one vote is a lurker, or a player who says stuff like "too scummy to be scum," then the game really might as well be over.
Does that make THIS vote a chainsaw defending Serp from Zak? When Zak made a chainsaw defending Sodium from Serp? Oh god, my brain hurts.Oh, for the love of Lady Yasaka.
Using the Hypothetical that Dorian/Sodium is townYou realise that assuming this makes your theory absolutely pointless, right? Because if we can assume he's Town we obviously won't want to lynch him.
Congrats Sodium, you are now modconfirmed.
##Unvote
What now fellas?
The one guy who most of my suspicions revolved around turned out to actually be TownWelp,
Mindhax > Logic
I forgot Serp was scum at one point while reading this game, FYI.And I still believe Pesco forgot he wasn't scum while playing the game. :V
I suggested to Carthrat during N1 that maybe we ought to let Nuke live and just go after some other player to avoid the possibility of being blocked. The deciding factor in attacking Nuke after all was that he had voiced suspicion of Carthrat, and as it happened, he did indeed try to scan Carthrat. Attacking Nuke ended up being the safest thing we could have done - if he got protected by the jailkeeper, then there would be no scan, and if he wasn't protected, then he'd die, and there would be no scan.Wait... you're talking from hindsight or you knew there was a jailkeeper in the setup beforehand?
We almost didn't go after Nietz on N2. Initially we were going to go after Kiro, but then we figured that it might be too obvious with a jailkeeper out there, so we decided that Nietz would be our best bet. Who did Nietz end up protecting that night?I blocked Carthrat. :P
Carth/Serpwhy did i drop this pair based on one stupid argument from day 1 aaaaaaaaaaah
Serp makes little/no mention of Carth as a suspect for the whole game, but despite this feels the need to point out 'Pesco-Carth scumpair is unlikely' during D3. Why?
Carth lumps Serp in with Affinity - THIS IS V. IMPOTANT IF CARTH IS SCUM, as is makes it hard for us to choose his potential buddy. On the other hand he was at odds with him over Dorian and the NF lynch D1 so yeah, this is less likely.
Wait... you're talking from hindsight or you knew there was a jailkeeper in the setup beforehand?
I still maintain that going after Dorian D1 was not a scummy move. I was playing exactly as I would have as a Townie there. :PAnd I still think trying to avoid an informational lynch is scummy, whether or not scum themselves thought so.
Also, is it normal to suffer crippling pangs of guilt for putting forward cases that are technically valid, but which you know to be completely false? >_>Yes, but just remind yourself that this is all fun and games and you're playing to win~.
Just because an opinion is earnest doesn't mean there's any point in paying attention to it. >_>
I will not lie, half the reason I was on Sodium was because I refused to accept Pesco's roleclaim clear of him. Likewise for his suspicions of Carth. In general I just have a complete hatred for gut because it isn't endorsed by SCIENCE.
This is just another game where scum won without needing to do anything clever or special; how I normally advocate they should play, because I so rarely find myself needing to do more.
I forgot Serp was scum at one point while reading this game, FYI.
It didn't have to just be mine, there was Kiro, Nietz and Donut's opinion which could have been considered.
Wait... you're talking from hindsight or you knew there was a jailkeeper in the setup beforehand?
I blocked Carthrat. :P
Also, we killed Kiro because he's scary.
We're at odds with each other over a lynch that wasn't either of us or a buddy, yeah, that argument was throwaway. Made easier by the fact that it seems we both believed our respective positions. >_>
Also, if you're getting pangs of guilt, you're doing it wrong :P
One thing that I'm going to bring up again, is that Carthrat never actually used his power. I'm still quite amused by this, especially since it was a very GOOD one for scum. Meh.
Not sure about Town MVP. Nietz deserves some cred for guessing Carth N2, Zakeri deserves some cred for catching Serp as scum, even if it's for slightly questionable reasons.
Basically, the only scumpairing with Dorian that made sense was him and Myself.
NUKE (day ending modkill)
And I still maintain that my vote of Dorian was totally justified. I played D1 completely straight. I feel that I can't emphasize this enough. Granted, in future games, I might make a judgement call in the other direction, but... This time, I was totally sincere.
Don't forget Nuke's, too. :VPesco: "Town needs to go back an evaluate dead townie's opinions."
Wow Kiro. I think I should try your method for once; it seems far more successful.Vanilla. Which makes me wonder:
Actually, interestingly, if I had gotted lynched or killed, would my flip be that of a Vanilla Townie, or a Doc? If it was latter, I think it would have messed up quite a lot of people.
1 - Roukanken - Pick A VT Role
You are Genji, quintessential servant of Kinzo and the head servant on Rokkenjima. While you are immensely badass and could easily flip out and kill everyone on the island like the badass old butler you are, Kinzo hasn't commanded you to... and thus, your hands are tied.
You are a town vigilante with zero kills remaining. You win with the town. Best of luck!
2 - Pesco - Pick A VT Role
You are Natsuhi Ushiromiya, wife of Krauss and mother of Jessica. You are kind of a bitch, but at least you're somewhat well-meaning. Unfortunately, you get headaches fairly often. These things hurt like hell. It does mean that you have a bottle of aspirin around, which you may use at night to ease the pain during the following day. They don't do anything other than curing headaches, though.
You are a town aspirin addict. You win with the town. Best of luck!
3 - Kiro - Jessica (Tsurupettan~)
You are Jessica Ushiromiya, daughter of Krauss and Natsuhi. When not wilting under the oppressive glare of your mother and father, you become Jessie and shred the shit out of your guitar. At night, you may play your hit song to any other player, who will hear it. Unfortunately, this doesn't help much in Mafia...
You are a town rock-star-in-hiding. You win with the town. Best of luck!
4 - Carthrat - Bern (Scum Gov)
You are Hideyoshi Ushiromiya, husband of Eva and father of George. Your wife may be a crazy bitch, but your jovial nature tends to keep her in check. At night, you may attempt to sell fish. Unfortunately, your fish-on-a-stick is not very useful in Mafia.
You are a town fishmonger. You win with the town.
...
Or rather... that's what you'd like town to believe.
You are actually Frederika Bernkastel! You are a town in the Rhineland-Palatinate federal state in Germany the Witch of Miracles, and as such, have the power to save someone's life! Because the act of deciding for a lynch is so heavily based on statistics and randomness (it's basically chaos-theoretic in its complexity), there is always the possibility that the person in question might not be lynched at all! Because of your power, you have the ability to force this. Every night, you may PM Alice and I with the name of one person whom you do not wish to see lynched the following day. At the beginning of that day, I will post a notification that a lynch of this person will not go through, therefore it is futile for the Town to attempt doing so. You may use this power three times before the end of this game, however, if the following day has a Lynch-or-Lose scenario (LYLO), your power will not work, even if you have charges remaining.
You are a scum governor with 3 shots. Your scum partner is Beatrice (Serpentarius). You may talk to each other at Night when everyone else is asleep, and at any time before the game starts. You win when town is dead. Best of luck!
5 - Serpentarius - Beato (Scum GF)
You are Ushiromiya Rosa, mother of Maria. Wow, are you a bitch or what? You treat your child like a Mack truck treats a deer at 90 miles per hour. At night, you may bitchslap Maria because you do that every night anyway.
You are a town abusive parent. You win with the town.
...
Or rather... that's what you'd like town to believe.
You are actually Beatrice, Golden Witch of Rokkenjima! You're out to kill everyone, and you're aligned with Bernkastel, the Witch of Miracles. You're really good at what you do, and thus no attempts to discover your true identity will come to fruition. Hooray! <3
You are a scum godfathermotherwitch. Your scumpartner is Bernkastel (Carthrat). You may talk to each other at Night when everyone else is asleep, and at any time before the game starts. You win when town is dead. Best of luck!
6 - Nuclear Fusion - Battler (Town Cop)
You are Battler Ushiromiya, and you are pretty much the walking personification of awesome. Women fall at your feet, and it is with righteous rage and anger at the murder of your friends and family that you turn the chessboard over to discover the true nature of any other player, once per night.
You are a town cop. You win with the town. Best of luck!
7 - Zakeri - Pick A VT Role, i.e. Sayo-chan
You are Kanon. You are a wimp; you can't even pick up a bag of fertilizer. Wimp. At night, you are a wimp and can't do anything. Wimpy mcwimperson.
You are a town wimp. You win with the town. Best of luck!
8 - Nietz - Kanon (Town Jailer)
You are Shannon. As #2 among the servants on Rokkenjima, you find it is your duty to protect your friends and loved ones by any means at your disposal. At night, you may target one player to smother him or her with your ample bosom, which manages to both protect them from harm and prevent them from doing anything else... not that they'd want to.
You are a town jailer. You win with the town. Best of luck!
9 - Affinity - Pick A VT Role, i.e. Nanjo
You are Dr. Nanjo! Unfortunately, you are an awful doctor. Seriously. You suck. You're bad at what you do and it shows. However, you do happen to play a mean game of chess! At night, you may play chess. Too bad chess doesn't help you much in Mafia...
You are a town doctor with zero charges. You win with the town. Best of luck!
10 - Donut - Pick A VT Role, i.e. Gohda
You are Gohda. As the ranking chef on Rokkenjima, it is your duty to feed the other residents. You're a fantastic cuisine artist with a fairly poor personality. However, your honed senses allow you to detect any other food being used. You may use this ability at night, but it won't do you much good in mafia...
You are a town chef. You win with the town. Best of luck!
11 - Dorian - Pick A VT Role, i.e. George
You are Rudolf Ushiromiya. You're a pretty cool guy, and you're the father of Battler and the husband of Kyrie. You have the power to be cool. At night, you may be cool. Unfortunately, being cool does not necessarily help you in Mafia.
You are a town cool guy. You win with the town. Best of luck!