Author Topic: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure  (Read 220787 times)

Hello Purvis

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  • Hello Jerry
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #270 on: September 03, 2017, 06:43:59 AM »
> "If it was more along the lines of 'Not oppose you until you attack one of us', I'd say I'd want to consider it, but then I'm still in the game and out a command seal. What am I supposed to do when I run into yet another damn servant fifteen minutes from now?"

>"I don't see how that's our problem," says the servant, chuckling. "We're just asking for a sign of trust. I think you'll agree history sides with us there, don't you?"

>_

Stuffman

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Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #271 on: September 03, 2017, 07:07:26 AM »
> Stop to think things over for a moment.

I have a feeling that if we fight them we probably won't win. Not on their turf at least. We need to make some kind of deal go through.

The only other real bargaining chip we have is the mana thingy, but I'm not convinced that handing that over is better than losing a command seal. (It's not all that useful to us but it could be disastrous in her hands...or the hands of someone that kills her and takes it.)

Oh, there is Assassin's identity, as was mentioned...it's worth a try, and it'd be great if someone killed him sooner rather than later.

> "What if I were to offer you Assassin's identity? Without it, you might end up dead before you can even move a muscle."

Hello Purvis

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  • Hello Jerry
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #272 on: September 03, 2017, 09:00:05 AM »
> Stop to think things over for a moment.
> "What if I were to offer you Assassin's identity? Without it, you might end up dead before you can even move a muscle."

>You try to ponder, but even with them here, there are many unknowns. You don't really know what she meant with that wish, you don't know how deep into any potential trap you are, and how much of it is a bluff (you don't doubt this Servant would bluff til the end), you aren't even wholly sure if this Servant is actually Lancer or Caster.
>"Hm, would that actually work?" says Kimimela. "We haven't even seen Assassin."
>"We'd know when we did," says the Servant. "So there's no real proof she's being honest."
>"We've got no reason to lie about this," says Archer.
>"On the contrary, you have every reason to send us forward with false pretenses," says the Servant.

>_

Stuffman

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Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #273 on: September 03, 2017, 03:39:37 PM »
> "Don't you have that convenient Information Update thing when you learn something about a servant?

Meta, but a legit question :V

Hello Purvis

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  • Hello Jerry
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #274 on: September 03, 2017, 09:02:46 PM »
> "Don't you have that convenient Information Update thing when you learn something about a servant?

>"I do, but I haven't even encountered Assassin to start to have one," says Kimimela.

>_

Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #275 on: September 04, 2017, 12:13:51 AM »
>"If I could tell you where to find him and confirm this, I would, but I have more idea his current location than you do."
>"Y'know, this might sound awfully convenient under the circumstances, but I too had thought about using my wish to the make the world a better place somehow - for all the people who are poor, downtrodden, exploited. I'm still not sure how to put it into words, exactly, but talking with Koch really drove the idea home. He said he wanted to use his wish to wish the grail out of existence and stop the bloodshed committed in the name of it, and on the surface that all sounds fine and dandy, but with the kind of money he had, he could already have saved far, far more lives than the Grail has ever cost, and yet he chose not to. Well, if I had the same chance, I'd want to make better choices. I'd want to live in a world where people didn't have to go hungry, where the sick could see a doctor without going bankrupt, where people didn't hate each other because of the color of their skin. I don't know much the Grail can do to fix all this, but I'd like to think there's a way to make it work."

Hello Purvis

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  • Hello Jerry
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #276 on: September 04, 2017, 12:29:17 AM »
>"If I could tell you where to find him and confirm this, I would, but I have more idea his current location than you do."
>"Y'know, this might sound awfully convenient under the circumstances, but I too had thought about using my wish to the make the world a better place somehow - for all the people who are poor, downtrodden, exploited. I'm still not sure how to put it into words, exactly, but talking with Koch really drove the idea home. He said he wanted to use his wish to wish the grail out of existence and stop the bloodshed committed in the name of it, and on the surface that all sounds fine and dandy, but with the kind of money he had, he could already have saved far, far more lives than the Grail has ever cost, and yet he chose not to. Well, if I had the same chance, I'd want to make better choices. I'd want to live in a world where people didn't have to go hungry, where the sick could see a doctor without going bankrupt, where people didn't hate each other because of the color of their skin. I don't know much the Grail can do to fix all this, but I'd like to think there's a way to make it work."

>"Oh, how noble," says the Servant. "Shouldn't you be taking notes, Master?"
>"That's well and good, but it doesn't really get to underlying problems, does it?" says Kimimela. "That's why my goal is more practical."

>_

Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #277 on: September 04, 2017, 12:34:42 AM »
>"Replace one set of power-holders with another?"

Hello Purvis

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  • Hello Jerry
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #278 on: September 04, 2017, 12:38:54 AM »
>"Replace one set of power-holders with another?"

>"It's our nation, there's no reason why we shouldn't be the ones to hold the power in government, business, academics, and all that," she says.

>_

Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #279 on: September 04, 2017, 12:47:27 AM »
>"And do you think that would make things better than they are today for any discriminated peoples but your own?"

Hello Purvis

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  • Hello Jerry
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #280 on: September 04, 2017, 01:06:59 AM »
>"And do you think that would make things better than they are today for any discriminated peoples but your own?"

>"It can't possibly make things worse, and it'll solve at least one grave injustice," she says. "Or are you trying to imply we'll be just as bad as you were, because there's a whole lot of history that says otherwise."

>_

Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #281 on: September 04, 2017, 01:20:04 AM »
>"No, I'm not. But history has also involved an awful lot of revolutions that eventually just replaced one underclass with a different one - and sure, maybe you could say it's about time white people had a turn at being that. I don't know that I could even argue against that, as much as I like my life the way it is already. But there's a lot of races and peoples that don't have a voice and what's any bit fairer about yours coming out on top than theirs? Just because you have 'power' that they don't?"

Hello Purvis

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  • Hello Jerry
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #282 on: September 04, 2017, 01:24:54 AM »
>"No, I'm not. But history has also involved an awful lot of revolutions that eventually just replaced one underclass with a different one - and sure, maybe you could say it's about time white people had a turn at being that. I don't know that I could even argue against that, as much as I like my life the way it is already. But there's a lot of races and peoples that don't have a voice and what's any bit fairer about yours coming out on top than theirs? Just because you have 'power' that they don't?"

>"They can talk when they're still not stuck on reservations and don't even have electricity half the time," says Kimimela. "And what makes you think we'll treat them like you do? Because, again, you have a lot of history you need to look at."

>_

Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #283 on: September 04, 2017, 01:37:02 AM »
>"Whether you treat the Syrians and the Mexicans and the African-Americans better than we have or not - and I won't deny you could - you're still saying that you should be in charge instead of them because you have power they don't and personally I think that's always a dangerous proposition."
>"And sure, maybe the world you're talking about is better than the one we have right now, but if we have the Grail of all things, can't we do even better than that?"

Hello Purvis

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  • Hello Jerry
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #284 on: September 04, 2017, 01:49:06 AM »
>"Whether you treat the Syrians and the Mexicans and the African-Americans better than we have or not - and I won't deny you could - you're still saying that you should be in charge instead of them because you have power they don't and personally I think that's always a dangerous proposition."
>"And sure, maybe the world you're talking about is better than the one we have right now, but if we have the Grail of all things, can't we do even better than that?"

>"I don't recall the land having belonged to Syrians or Spanish Settlers in Mexico," she says. "And if it could, why hasn't it? This isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened. It can't solve everything, so we'll see if it solves this."

Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #285 on: September 04, 2017, 02:07:23 AM »
>"Okay, then in terms of specifics, did you plan to wish that all the positions of power controlled by white people were controlled by your people instead? Like just a 'wake up in the morning and things are different' sort of way?"

Hello Purvis

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  • Hello Jerry
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #286 on: September 04, 2017, 02:15:45 AM »
>"Okay, then in terms of specifics, did you plan to wish that all the positions of power controlled by white people were controlled by your people instead? Like just a 'wake up in the morning and things are different' sort of way?"

>"I'm not going to guess how it'll happen," she says. "But if that's what it does, so be it."

>_

Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #287 on: September 04, 2017, 02:26:18 AM »
>"Then I think there's a problem that can't be swayed by either the nobility of your ideals or even how much white people might deserve what's coming. If you really want to invert the life circumstances of our two peoples, then that means the forcible disenfranchisement of a population that outnumbers the new ruling class 70 to 1. We know how that works already - history has played out events like that a hundred times."

Hello Purvis

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  • Hello Jerry
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #288 on: September 04, 2017, 02:35:06 AM »
>"Then I think there's a problem that can't be swayed by either the nobility of your ideals or even how much white people might deserve what's coming. If you really want to invert the life circumstances of our two peoples, then that means the forcible disenfranchisement of a population that outnumbers the new ruling class 70 to 1. We know how that works already - history has played out events like that a hundred times."

>"You can still vote for whatever Native American we give you that you like, just like we can vote for whatever white people you give us." she says. "Again, if you think we'll be even a fraction as bad as you were, you need to look over the last five hundred years and some change."

>_

Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #289 on: September 04, 2017, 02:42:44 AM »
>"That's not what I'm saying. And it has nothing to do with what I think of you or your position, either; I'll own up to white people's culpability in any of a thousand injustices you care to name. But any time a disenfranchised class so vastly outnumbers outnumbers its ruling class and the apparatus they use to project force and ensure compliance, open revolt is only a matter of time. Are you expecting the Grail to change everyone's minds about this, too?"

Hello Purvis

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  • Hello Jerry
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #290 on: September 04, 2017, 02:54:29 AM »
>"If they want to go up against a modern military, that's their problem," says Kimimela. "I'm not going to shed any tears if you can't handle a tiny fraction of what you dished out for centuries." She smirks. "If it's a problem, they can go back to Europe. That's what you tell Mexican immigrants, isn't it?"

>_

Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #291 on: September 04, 2017, 03:04:51 AM »
>"That's what a lot of people tell them, yes. That doesn't make it any less wrong."

Hello Purvis

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  • Hello Jerry
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #292 on: September 04, 2017, 03:07:42 AM »
>"That's what a lot of people tell them, yes. That doesn't make it any less wrong."

>"Oh my, are you saying your claim to these lands is equal to ours?" says the Servant.
>"That's not what she meant!" says Archer.
>"No, but it's what she said, isn't it?" says the Servant. "Surely it is a lot more wrong for an invader to tell an immigrant to leave than it is for the resident to tell invaders?"

>_

Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #293 on: September 04, 2017, 03:22:04 AM »
>"You can't turn back the clock, no matter what wrongs were done to make the country what it is today. People have come here from every corner of the world by now, have raised families here, have lived so many generations here that they've known no other home but here. This is their home. No matter who lived here first, they're as much a part of this country now as you are. And, sure, this country's got a lot of problems and they way your people have been treated is way up there. But you aren't dealing with what 'might have been' or even 'should have been'. You're dealing with real people and real lives and real fallout that will inevitably come from any political shakeup like the one you're proposing. This stopped being any of our country alone, a long, long time ago."

Hello Purvis

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  • Hello Jerry
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #294 on: September 04, 2017, 03:39:22 AM »
>"You can't turn back the clock, no matter what wrongs were done to make the country what it is today. People have come here from every corner of the world by now, have raised families here, have lived so many generations here that they've known no other home but here. This is their home. No matter who lived here first, they're as much a part of this country now as you are. And, sure, this country's got a lot of problems and they way your people have been treated is way up there. But you aren't dealing with what 'might have been' or even 'should have been'. You're dealing with real people and real lives and real fallout that will inevitably come from any political shakeup like the one you're proposing. This stopped being any of our country alone, a long, long time ago."

>"What a bunch of self-serving bullshit," says Kimimela, her face darkening. "You sit there on top of the pyramid, having stolen everything from us and shoved us from our land and jammed us into the barrens; which you stole from us after you found oil! Then you sit here and talk about how the clock can't be turned back? How about you stop killing us, first! How about you take responsibility for this history, first? We didn't do this. You did! How about you take responsibility for the government you've saddled us all with? How about you take responsibility for the awful billionaires you created? You can take all that self-righteous bullshit and shove it, you're just scared you might end up getting a fraction as bad as you've treated us and everyone else! How how about you make good on that show of faith I mentioned, or stop wasting our time with your two-faced garbage."
>The Servant just shrugs and nods.


The ⑨th Zentillion

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  • Now hungry for conviction!
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Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #295 on: September 04, 2017, 04:27:16 AM »
>"...This is stupid. We're both talking over each other and getting nowhere... But in the end, I have no right to tell you whether your methods would lead to disaster or not while you definitely do, so I guess I'm beaten here."
> Show Kimmaela and her servant the super-mega-ultra-mana-crystal-in-a-tube. But don't give it to them yet.


Edit: See below post.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 04:47:06 AM by The ⑨th Zentillion »
Did you bring a light?
...No...


Smash the Fash; The far right belongs in the TRASH.

Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #296 on: September 04, 2017, 04:37:36 AM »
>Wait, wait, wait

We're not beaten at all yet, don't just surrender like that.

The ⑨th Zentillion

  • The impeaches were delicious...
  • Now hungry for conviction!
    • Zentillion's Tumblr
Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #297 on: September 04, 2017, 04:46:27 AM »
//Hmm, yeah, let's dial it back a little, I suppose. I kinda just want Lily to not look more like a racist idiot making excuses than she is already, because that is definitely how the other Master here is seeing us right now. But anyway:

>"...This is stupid. We're both talking over each other and getting nowhere... But in the end, I have no right to tell you whether your methods would lead to disaster or not while you definitely do, But even then, I think you can understand why I can't just give in so easily."

Did you bring a light?
...No...


Smash the Fash; The far right belongs in the TRASH.

Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #298 on: September 04, 2017, 04:47:19 AM »
To elaborate, while it's looking increasingly unlikely we'll convince her to be more reasonable, since she seems to view us as an example of The Problem, regardless of what we've actually said (for example, I specifically tried to frame the harm of her plan as harm either to her kind or to other minorities and NOT to white people, yet she interprets that as us simply not wanting to give up any of OUR position), I don't think this means the only other option is to concede. For that matter, I'm not even sure all avenues of discourse have been exhausted yet, but even if they are, I don't see that we need to take this lying down. They may have the upper hand, but we're not yet beaten (also, if we can manage to suss out something more about their Servant's identity through conversation, that would be great).

I don't actually think her 'gesture of good faith' is worth taking, barring some other concession, because it means rendering us essentially helpless against someone who has made it clear that they don't like us (and whose Servant is probably a trickster spirit on top of it). In THEORY, we could take the gamble and hope that she's shocked enough that she might admit to our earnestness, but the odds seem far too low to risk so much (and a whole command seal in the bargain).

Also, I see no reason to reveal the presence of the magic cylinder unless we plan specifically to bargain with it and I don't see that we're in a position where that's useful (she may have little use for it and nothing she's willing to give up in exchange for it)

(Er, I have yet to decide what the next thing to say/do IS, but I do feel very strongly that it's not 'roll over and give up'. Like, no matter what one thinks of the morality of Kimimela's plan, it seems completely doomed to eventually triggering mass civil unrest and possibly open revolt and will likely lead to a worse situation for EVERYONE, including her own people. One possible angle is pointing out how heterogeneous the native population across the US is, as there was certainly no unified front in ownership of the land in colonial times and I suspect they wouldn't even be able to agree how to form one at this point either, though I admit to having relatively little knowledge of US native affairs.)

Re: JoJo's Bizarre Grail War Part 2 - A Fate/Z-Machine Adventure
« Reply #299 on: September 04, 2017, 04:48:32 AM »
'look more like a racist idiot making excuses than she is already'

Is that seriously the vibe you're getting off of everything I've said?