Author Topic: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)  (Read 7249 times)

commandercool

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Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« on: July 01, 2013, 01:01:54 AM »
(Warning, some spoilers)

Yeah, it takes me forever to get around to seeing movies. Finally saw it earlier today.

I'm a big Superman fan. As such I kind of avoided seeing this because I think Zack Snyder is a clown. When it comes to Superman I'm very picky. I understand why a lot of people say they find Superman boring, because he's very easy to write badly. This movie has a lot of the pitfalls that make Superman bad. There's a ton of stuff about Krypton, which I can't stand almost ever. The Kents are fairly marginalized, which I think misses a lot of the point of the character. There's a lot of Superman punching dudes and dudes punching Superman, which is pretty much the most boring thing ever because he's fucking Superman and he's definitely going to win. Despite all of that a lot of it kind of worked. The prologue on Krypton was basically gibberish and could have been completely cut and the movie would have been better (in fact, doing that would have eliminated a few big plot holes), but Zod more or less worked as a villain. Johnathan Kent was handled in a way that I'm not really okay with, but in a lot of ways Superman still behaves like Superman anyway.

There are parts of it that made me really uncomfortable and that I'm still processing. The action was very difficult to watch. The collateral damage is absolutely gratuitous, which is borderline unacceptable in a Superman story. Like to the point that I almost walked out a couple of times. And then there's the part where at the end Superman kills a guy. I had this spoiled for me well in advance and was actually surprised by how well done it was. He seems to literally not have a choice, which is narratively interesting. After that though I don't think there can be another Superman movie, or if there is it has to be way different. If you're going to write Superman into a corner where he has to kill, there have to be heavy consequences and there don't seem to be any at all. Although I don't know how big a deal that gets to be when Superman is indirectly but closely responsible for what seems to have been tens of thousands of deaths over the course of the big fight sequences. Superman loses in this movie. He does not win the fight because he failed to protect a mind-blowing number of people. I don't know how I feel about that. The Christ imagery also kind of creeped me out. I recognize it as being a component of the character as written by many people, but I don't like it.

Ultimately I think the biggest problem I had with the narrative was basically the same one that I had with Amazing Spiderman (aside from, you know, the fact that Amazing Spiderman was boring and stupid and had horrendous effects). One of the ultimate points of the movie seems to be that Clark Kent is exceptional because of his biological father. The Kents are such a small part of the movie that Jor-El is presented as being a majority of the reason Clark is Superman. We do see him save people before he learns about Krypton, but he seemingly does so against Johnathan Kent's wishes. Pa Kent dies apparently still believing that Clark is doing the wrong thing by using his power for good. This seems to imply that Clark is Superman because he's genetically predisposed to do good despite his foster parents actively holding him back, just like Peter Parker in Amazing Spiderman being genetically brilliant and succeeding apparently largely because of his exceptional father. The Superman I love is 90% human and just happens to be an alien, not 90% alien who just happens to have been raised by humans. Frankly that character is kind of terrifying, not inspiring. Maybe I'm just projecting because this wasn't handled the way I like to see it done, but I kept waiting for another flashback to the Kents encouraging Clark to do some good, and it never came.

So anyway, I went in with zero expectations and liked it more than I expected, but I still don't know if I feel positively about it. Anybody else got thoughts?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 02:00:48 AM by helvetica »
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helvetica

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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2013, 02:00:59 AM »
Changed thread title to warn about spoilers.


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commandercool

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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 02:10:29 AM »
Changed thread title to warn about spoilers.

Fair enough. Good thinkin'.
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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2013, 02:14:27 AM »
didn't read batman is better

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commandercool

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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 03:00:05 AM »
didn't read batman is better

A better movie? Yes. Batman Begins is one of my favorite movies. Man Of Steel tries to be Batman Begins but forgets the part where Batman Begins is fun.

A better hero? You're welcome to have opinions that aren't right. :D
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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2013, 09:07:05 AM »
Lots of DC heroes are silly because they're mostly gods :V

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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2013, 09:44:51 AM »
Lots of DC heroes are silly because they're mostly gods :V
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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 01:49:53 PM »

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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 02:29:49 PM »
Let me tell you about Zack Snyder's vision for this Superman that I gather from a writer of MY caliber might think - yes, I believe this is a take on the Superman legend as I would have taken you on Gensokyo's chronicles of Sanae as a maniacally depressed diseased delusional hermit in my retelling of her story. I think of Zack as telling Superman in the DC world as 'you quite simply cannot not kill when you are an elephant in an ant farm' There is no way Superman classic can ever co-exist among man, worshipped as a God yet feared, and somehow, in between all this, earn trust not to bend to the pressure of being amongst so many humans and somehow not accidentally bent their necks from a offhanded off-screen sneeze. I think that is Zack's vision, it is a darker, clearly plot bending world view of the Superman that we should have known. The world has seen enough violence to know that gratuitous violence in a Superman-esque way would not solve any world problems, even if they instill fear as a God-like existence, at best they become icons of reliance - (as US or the Avengers would put it - having the Tesseract will only indicate to ALL the other worlds, that Earth is merely ready for a higher form of war). Put it this way, Superman is the force that makes the nuclear powered missile and nuclear subs like AA size batteries, and in certainly now that the Earth has ONE such superhero, people will know, and will understand, everyone will know that there are force not far from Gods amongst them, in certain aspect I believe the world view opened by Zack's crazy lets throw everything into the air of the fight scenes of the Supers - he has opened up, with Superman 2 or 3 if there would be - there will never be another Superman universe where nothing is hurt, all that is precious can be crushed, just as Superman will one day become evil....?

In fact, I think Zack has done this ideally, it has opened up the path for Super 2 and 3 to possibly adapt the parts where he goes into alternate timelines and create a future Superman-Nation. (as in the plot line from Injustice Gods Among Us) 
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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2013, 04:06:14 PM »
Lots of DC heroes are silly because they're mostly gods :V

That's fine, as long as the stories that are told with them account for this. That's why it gets mind numbingly boring really fast to watch Superman fight people. But stories where characters who are at heart still effectively human have to deal with the implications and consequences of near-godhood have a lot of potential to be very interesting. Much more interesting, at least to me, than "Oh hey Wolverine punched a guy again and then he won because he always wins".

The Flash is broken.

Agreed. Can't wrap my head around The Flash. All of his villains except the ones who have exactly the same powers as him (and the Turtle :3) couldn't possibly touch him in a million years, and he mostly appears in team books like Justice League where he massively outclasses all of the other characters in the book. Why does he have to run OMG So Fast Holy Shit Bro You Can't Even Imagine How Fast? Isn't he cooler if he can just, like, run several hundred miles per hour? That's still an amazing and interesting power. The Flash is dumb and I don't like him. And yes, I recognize that he's effectively just a much weaker Superman, but Superman has his own genre of superhero stories that account for his amazing power level while Flash mostly still gets 'street level' hero stuff.

Let me tell you about Zack Snyder's vision for this Superman that I gather from a writer of MY caliber might think - yes, I believe this is a take on the Superman legend as I would have taken you on Gensokyo's chronicles of Sanae as a maniacally depressed diseased delusional hermit in my retelling of her story. I think of Zack as telling Superman in the DC world as 'you quite simply cannot not kill when you are an elephant in an ant farm' There is no way Superman classic can ever co-exist among man, worshipped as a God yet feared, and somehow, in between all this, earn trust not to bend to the pressure of being amongst so many humans and somehow not accidentally bent their necks from a offhanded off-screen sneeze. I think that is Zack's vision, it is a darker, clearly plot bending world view of the Superman that we should have known. The world has seen enough violence to know that gratuitous violence in a Superman-esque way would not solve any world problems, even if they instill fear as a God-like existence, at best they become icons of reliance - (as US or the Avengers would put it - having the Tesseract will only indicate to ALL the other worlds, that Earth is merely ready for a higher form of war). Put it this way, Superman is the force that makes the nuclear powered missile and nuclear subs like AA size batteries, and in certainly now that the Earth has ONE such superhero, people will know, and will understand, everyone will know that there are force not far from Gods amongst them, in certain aspect I believe the world view opened by Zack's crazy lets throw everything into the air of the fight scenes of the Supers - he has opened up, with Superman 2 or 3 if there would be - there will never be another Superman universe where nothing is hurt, all that is precious can be crushed, just as Superman will one day become evil....?

In fact, I think Zack has done this ideally, it has opened up the path for Super 2 and 3 to possibly adapt the parts where he goes into alternate timelines and create a future Superman-Nation. (as in the plot line from Injustice Gods Among Us)

If he does surprise me and make Superman 2 in such a way that there are serious consequences to Man Of Steel then I think that helps me decide what I think of Man Of Steel. That would be very good writing actually. I've always loved Lex Luthor, he's my favorite villain and while he is nearly irredeemably evil I have some sympathy with his basic position. That kind of story could lay groundwork for a Lex character who is technically totally in the right, yet still a villain. And that could be really, really interesting.

In Man Of Steel at least I don't think we actually see a "darker Superman". The situations he's in are darker, but he does seem to react in almost every situation like Superman should react. Even when he kills Zod it's written in such a way that he's not acting totally out of character with the established Superman. The way the people of Earth react to him doesn't really account for the darker tone either. By the end he's more or less won them over despite killing a man in front of them and being indirectly responsible for a staggering number of deaths, I suppose because they recognize that without him Zod would have killed them all. They don't know that Zod only found Earth because of something he did. There's groundwork here for a more "realistic" Superman story, but none of it is realized yet. The end is tonally inconsistent with the movie Man Of Steel seems to be trying to be. Now that you mention it though, Man Of Steel is not the end of this story, because there will be more movies. If those movies pick up the groundwork that is set up but never used this story could work. If they don't, it's quite a terrible mess. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Edit: That doesn't mean that I want to see this end in "dictator Superman" though. That's too easy a direction to go and has been done too many times. I would much rather see a well-meaning Superman who isn't hugely dissimilar than the established canon Superman, but who is just wrong enough to make Lex kind of right. Personally I would be really let down by some kind of "Superman turned out to be a bad dude and then he died" ending or whatever. I would rather see him start to make some bad decisions and then mutually learn from Lex that he needs to back out of humanity's business.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 04:19:19 PM by commandercool »
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pineyappled

Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2013, 11:35:58 PM »
Lots of DC heroes are silly because they're mostly gods :V
2hu forum

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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2013, 02:15:06 AM »
2hu forum

But 2hus have 1 power, not the power to have all powers at any time

commandercool

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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2013, 02:17:30 AM »
But 2hus have 1 power, not the power to have all powers at any time

Except for, you know, all of the various gods. Their powers are ambiguous and numerous.
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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2013, 03:26:30 AM »
Except for, you know, all of the various gods. Their powers are ambiguous and numerous.

But they're gods, that's what they're supposed to do. These are superheroes, superhumans, who are supposed to have weaknesses, not be gods.

commandercool

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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2013, 04:04:05 AM »
But they're gods, that's what they're supposed to do. These are superheroes, superhumans, who are supposed to have weaknesses, not be gods.

Who says? Ignoring the fact that they do in fact have weaknesses, why can't they be gods?
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pineyappled

Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2013, 06:01:39 AM »
But they're gods, that's what they're supposed to do. These are superheroes, superhumans, who are supposed to have weaknesses, not be gods.
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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2013, 06:58:36 PM »
Quote
In Man Of Steel at least I don't think we actually see a "darker Superman". The situations he's in are darker, but he does seem to react in almost every situation like Superman should react. Even when he kills Zod it's written in such a way that he's not acting totally out of character with the established Superman. The way the people of Earth react to him doesn't really account for the darker tone either. By the end he's more or less won them over despite killing a man in front of them and being indirectly responsible for a staggering number of deaths, I suppose because they recognize that without him Zod would have killed them all. They don't know that Zod only found Earth because of something he did. There's groundwork here for a more "realistic" Superman story, but none of it is realized yet. The end is tonally inconsistent with the movie Man Of Steel seems to be trying to be. Now that you mention it though, Man Of Steel is not the end of this story, because there will be more movies. If those movies pick up the groundwork that is set up but never used this story could work. If they don't, it's quite a terrible mess. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Well what I am getting at is that by the end of Man of Steel, Zack did not close off the possibility that people will soon realize - it is a fucking super alien that is fighting his crazy ass wars with super destruction in a super destructive way on our pathetic little planet  -  we ought to oust Superman rather than worship him, while we still can. This possibility opens up many doorways for both Lex to win (and not having him steal FORTY CAKES, WHICH IS AS MANY AS FOUR TENS, WHICH WOULD BE TERRIBLE) that he might need to provoke anger in Superman, why should he even lift a finger? Let the shoulders of superman shoulder all this sin, all this hatred from a planet he not just failed to protect but somehow didn't see his protection only meant worse for the human fleshbags.

A bull in his own little china shop, I might say, and ends up breaking everything he strove to make right. And by the end of S2, we see him look back and think of Kent Pa, and think back - was holding back the better choice after all? Did the world needed a superhero like him? Or did the world simply invited a new kind of danger?
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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2013, 02:16:52 AM »
But they're gods, that's what they're supposed to do. These are superheroes, superhumans, who are supposed to have weaknesses, not be gods.
It's not that they don't have weaknesses (Superman has a quite a few; rocks from all colors of the rainbow, magic, light that simulates the red sun from his planet, immense physical trauma [as Doomsday showed], etc), it's just that many writers suck at creating plausible scenarios where the villains can exploit them.

And keeping heroes dead, but that's hardly a DC exclusive problem.
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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2013, 02:36:52 AM »
It's not that they don't have weaknesses (Superman has a quite a few; rocks from all colors of the rainbow, magic, light that simulates the red sun from his planet, immense physical trauma [as Doomsday showed], etc), it's just that many writers suck at creating plausible scenarios where the villains can exploit them.

And keeping heroes dead, but that's hardly a DC exclusive problem.

In fact, Superman has way more weaknesses than say, Wolverine, who has effectively none. That's not to say that piling plot device-y weaknesses onto a character is necessarily good writing, but it's a fact of the characters.
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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2013, 05:37:34 AM »
That said Superman vs Goku who wins ?
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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2013, 08:59:54 AM »
That said Superman vs Goku who wins ?

Batman.

AnonymousPondScum

Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2013, 09:45:30 AM »
That said Superman vs Goku who wins ?

Squirrel Girl.

commandercool

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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2013, 04:01:44 PM »
That said Superman vs Goku who wins ?

I admit I don't know that much about Goku, but when that dumb video came out I went to a viewing party and this is what we came up with:

First of all, a writer would have to jump through a lot of hoops to get them to finish a fight with each-other. Most likely they would be evenly matched for a while and then would call it off because they're on the same side and are both smart enough to realize that. If for some reason they don't, Superman probably eventually comes out on top for a couple of reasons. Goku is (from what I'm told) too honorable to exploit any of Superman's weaknesses even if he finds out about them. If he's fighting really dirty he can teleport Superman into a bunch of kryptonite or so far out into space that there's no yellow sun radiation and win, but I hear he would rather have a real fight to the finish.

So with that being the case, Goku pretty much has it wrapped up because he can't possibly lose, hitting him just makes him morph into progressively stronger different Gokus. Superman is very smart though, so if he realizes this fast enough he can just stop punching Goku so that he stops powering up before Goku gets strong enough to hurt him badly and wait for him to run out of power. Or he can use his intelligence and super speed to trap Goku in the Phantom Zone if for some reason he sees that as being necessary, like if the collateral damage of the fight is at risk of hurting Earth or something.

So basically pretty much every "Superman-like" route involves Superman effectively ending the fight early, but if for some reason both he and Goku have a reason to not do so, or if for some reason it goes on for a while but Goku decides to fight dirty, then Goku wins. But they have a ton of reasons to stop fighting, so it's kind of hard to imagine a situation where any of those things would happen. They would probably realize they could be pals and reach out of the page to punch the writer in the face and stop the fight or something.

Tl;dr: Squirrel Girl wins. :derp:
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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2013, 04:18:13 PM »
First of all, a writer would have to jump through a lot of hoops to get them to finish a fight with each-other
Mind control :V
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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2013, 05:02:12 PM »
Mind control :V

Yeah, I suppose that does work up to the point where heroes dramatically shake off mind control a lot. Although it does defeat a lot of the point of the fight because they're not making decisions for themselves so it's basically a stationary punching contest. Some kind of illusions tricking them into thinking they're not fighting each-other might work, but again you lose a lot of the specific interactions between the two specific characters.
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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2013, 11:06:20 AM »
I think this is probably the best analysis of Man of Steel I've seen.

If you new to half in the bag, don't mind the skits around the review and just skip to 4:30. It's when the actual review starts.

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Re: Man Of Steel (spoilers within!)
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2013, 03:03:05 PM »
Yeah, I suppose that does work up to the point where heroes dramatically shake off mind control a lot. Although it does defeat a lot of the point of the fight because they're not making decisions for themselves so it's basically a stationary punching contest. Some kind of illusions tricking them into thinking they're not fighting each-other might work, but again you lose a lot of the specific interactions between the two specific characters.

I think consider this was the beginning of the plot to Injustice Gods Among Us hereforth will be shortened as IGAU, one must consider the possibility of mind control where they consider each other the ultimate source of all evil that threaten the world and all worlds. Consider Goku, for example, he is aware other worlds exist, and so does Superman, so if they fight I think they'd utilize all their powers because each believe the other is out to kill everything, reason or non-reason. (mind control should work in such a way that no matter what the other guy says, Superman/Goku would hear, WELL I AM HERE TO KILL EVERYTHING.)

That said I'd want to see Superman fight Silver Surfer or some equal footing characters in Marvel rather than anime, consider anime vs comics is just in its own league of super silly. At least when you have two mainstream comics powerhouses pitting their best characters they'd at least exhibit the same degree of brokeness that can be explained via The STAN LEE THEORY OF SPECIAL RELATIVITY - aka - mass sudden-injection of a Godly character at work behind the scenes  (choose one - 1. Beyonder 2. the Creator 3. Cosmic Cubes 4. Immortals etc etc etc etc)
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