Maidens of the Kaleidoscope

~Hakurei Shrine~ => Touhou Addict Recovery Center => Topic started by: Polaris on June 14, 2018, 01:34:47 PM

Title: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Polaris on June 14, 2018, 01:34:47 PM
Figured this manga deserved a thread too, like VFiS. I just saw the latest chapter (Chapter 46) go up and I enjoyed it a lot, so I wanted to see other people's reactions. I'll post more detailed thoughts later.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: CyberAngel on June 14, 2018, 03:17:31 PM
Tenshi becoming a literal fallen celestial is still my favourite thing that's been happening as of late. Pretty sure that won't change a thing about her personality in the end, but she fits right in nicely anyway. That said, I like the strange mix of seriousness and lightheartedness in the chapter. That's how Touhou really is, after all.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Lebon14 on June 14, 2018, 06:32:26 PM
So, now, we know that
Kishin is a type of oni
and that Zun made
Reimu have a near-death experience just for the heck of it
. (My reaction to the last pages was "Are you serious?!" - Yeah, I know, unimpressive.)

I still hate Tenshi.

Overall, it was an interesting chapter.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: R. P. Genocraft on June 14, 2018, 06:40:55 PM
So, now, we know that
Kishin is a type of oni
How is that new?
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Lebon14 on June 15, 2018, 01:05:58 AM
How is that new?
Maybe not new, it was just implied until today.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Shizzo on June 15, 2018, 01:29:42 AM
Here lieth Reimu, who could dodge bullet and spellcard, but weren't able to avoid food poisoning.

Also bonus points for Komachi, Tenshi AND Kasen all having smug moments in this chapter. 
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: CyberAngel on June 15, 2018, 11:12:33 AM
Tenshi being SERIOUS for once definitely made my day.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Gpop on June 15, 2018, 04:40:33 PM
Reimu's
near-death experience
was a hilarious yet odd way of explaining that issue with Komachi.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: CyberAngel on October 17, 2018, 10:39:07 AM
If you care about WaHH even a little bit, drop everything and go read the latest chapter (https://mangadex.org/chapter/465233/1). NOW.

Since, judging by FS, ZUN loves keeping his Chekov's Guns until the end, I predict manga's end approaching. I don't think Kasen will have her longtime "quest" solved though, since ZUN also prefers to avoid drastic changes to his characters.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Suspicious person on October 17, 2018, 05:28:04 PM
Spooky chapter for Spooktober, it seems

Regarding chapter 47, some takeouts :
IF that "oni's arm" is indeed an Oni's arm, or better yet, a certain someone's arm, or THE arm that a certain someone has been searching for quite a bit, then 1/ that is one heck of a small arm, 2/ how did Reimu receive it ? Like, was it at the Hakurei Shrine all along or was it given to her, and if so, what are the specifics of it ? 3/  The fact that the item in question is also not with Reimu's physical body but instead with her in Hell raises some question regarding its nature, unless this is something like the case of Sumireko bringing items from the Outside World except we have Reimu, the "oni's arm", and some kind of weird Hell this time, and 4/ Does the arm allow whoever's got it to get into or to interact with a particuliar kind of Hell or any Hell, and only spiritually or not just spiritually ? And also, 5/ Tenshi to the rescue ! ... Probably.

Interesting enough,
Kasen was nowhere to be seen in this chapter. Not that it could hold some sort of meaning, of course, but quite unusual for this manga.
At any rate, there's not a lot to take from chapter 47, seeing as it is only a setup for a resolution that's gonna be brought later. Speculation are possible, but aside from Reimu obviously
recovering
from her predicament, not much else is certain.

Considering that VFiS is coming up next, I'd be curious to see whether
the state of Reimu
os gonna be refered to in there or if we're gonna get a
fully functionnal Reimu.

---

Anyway, on the more speculative, regarding the Sages in general, they generally seem to mainly protect Gensokyo from outside interferences : Yukari from the Outside World, Okina from ... foreign energies (?), but then we have Kasen, who, uh, guides animals ?! As one of the Sage founders, that seems a bit ... unusual ? Anyway, ASSUMING that the
Oni's arm introduced in this chapter turns out to be Kasen's missing arm, and considering that the Oni's arm apparently seems to allow someone to interact with Hell (or "a" Hell), and considering the fact that in a much, MUCH earlier WaHH chapter, Kasen did mention "beating up the servants of Hell" (iirc, but the way that remark came out was in a way so nonchalant it stood out in a weird way to me), and seems to not be very fond of Hell in general, then what if Kasen's role, as a Sage, was to, dunno, keep Gensokyo safe from the threats from down below ? Since the underworld and Hell are NOT part of Gensokyo ? (think of them as a very close neighboring country of sorts that is for example) Kinda "weak" if you consider the fact that Yukari could take the initiative to make an agreement between Gensokyo and Hell, which would be rather rude if someone else was already in the charge of that, but still ...
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Drake on October 18, 2018, 12:07:59 AM
I'm a bit charmed by
all the people coming over to visit Reimu. It doesn't seem like much, but it isn't very often that we're explicitly shown many characters caring for Reimu's wellbeing in this way, just a select few like Marisa and Kasen.

Also, here's a completely arbitrary theory: that Kasen has wanted to retrieve her arm not for any personal benefit, but to get it away from the world so it doesn't cause trouble if unsealed. Up until the very end we would be led to believe that she wants to get her arm back for herself, and in order to save Reimu it might seem like she has to make a choice, but surprise her goal was to destroy it or something all along. Maybe.

Kinda "weak" if you consider the fact that Yukari could take the initiative to make an agreement between Gensokyo and Hell, which would be rather rude if someone else was already in the charge of that, but still ...
It was actually never stated that Yukari was personally the one responsible, only sages. At the time we didn't know of any other sages and it was Yukari that first mentioned the deal so that was only assumed -- leaving the interpretation open. I've been thinking that this could have been related to Kasen's role for quite some time.

Lastly, there seems to be some speculation going on in Japanese spheres that
this might lead to a game, with potentially Tenshi, and perhaps Kasen or Piece, as playables
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: CyberAngel on October 18, 2018, 06:37:00 AM
Hm. While I believe something like that is kinda okay in case of a side game like GFW, I think it would feel lame if a main game had a backstory that would be pretty much just "go read a manga chapter in some magazine".
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Drake on October 18, 2018, 08:43:26 AM
Agree. Well,
the past few games have been set up by the manga etc, but the difference is that this is more directly "this is the incident" which isn't one ZUN tends to go for when setting up games. Recently it is the backstory that is in previous works, but the incident is typically self-contained.

The timeline is a big maybe, because the next chapter will likely still occur in the fall but release in December, right before Winter Comiket. While ZUN could release a side game there, VD did just come out in August, leaving only four months to work with. Also, the only time he's released a complete game in December was StB. So I'm not really giving any of this weight.

Or, he could totally blindside and tie this up with VFiS in November somehow so he can get even further in December's WaHH?
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Lebon14 on December 13, 2018, 05:51:10 PM
Latest chapter is out, thanks to Clarste.

Looks like Kasen is involved one way or another. She's not been seen in 2 chapters. And Tenshi is our detective for this otherwordly case. It's also smelling the end of this manga.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Shizzo on December 13, 2018, 06:08:18 PM
Part of me thinks she just went to hell specifically to fetch/save Reimu, but it would be interesting if she was involved as an antagonist instead of heroine!
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: CyberAngel on December 13, 2018, 06:20:48 PM
Feels weird to have Reimu in a coma for months while she's also busy investigating fairy extinction.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Shizzo on December 13, 2018, 07:11:51 PM
Feels weird to have Reimu in a coma for months while she's also busy investigating fairy extinction.

Probably because the mangas happen in different timeframes. 
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Drake on December 13, 2018, 10:23:44 PM
My random theory from the last chapter is looking pretty good tbh
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: PK on December 14, 2018, 11:39:24 AM
Does anyone know
what Alaya-Vijnana actually is? A quick read seems to imply something about mental and physical consciuouness/awareness, so my own uneducated assumption is that it gives her some sort of "enhanced sensibility" that lets her see all the components of the door so that she can operate on it with her own power (kinda like supernatural microscope surgery), but on reddit they make it sound like some otherwordly superpowerful technique.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Lebon14 on December 14, 2018, 05:19:36 PM
Does anyone know
what Alaya-Vijnana actually is? A quick read seems to imply something about mental and physical consciuouness/awareness, so my own uneducated assumption is that it gives her some sort of "enhanced sensibility" that lets her see all the components of the door so that she can operate on it with her own power (kinda like supernatural microscope surgery), but on reddit they make it sound like some otherwordly superpowerful technique.

Clarste got a Ask about this and he said... http://clarste.tumblr.com/post/181076097971/i-tried-looking-it-up-but-couldnt-quite
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: the old guy on December 15, 2018, 06:31:56 AM
Here's a scholarly description of what Alaya Vijnan is: https://www.britannica.com/topic/alaya-vijnana

The afterlife in Touhou is very Buddhist inspirated, Komachi being able to do super cool nirvana stuff is fitting with that theme.

As for the chapter itself,
REIMU CONFIRMED TO NOT BE DEAD!

Everyone knew that already, but it feels good to know that storyline isn't going to be dragged on forever like I was worried it would.

If this is the finale of the manga, I REALLY hope we get to see Yukari, Okina and
Kasen
finally interact with each other as the sages of Gensokyo, it would be ultra disappointing for the perfect opportunity to be missed.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Suspicious person on December 15, 2018, 06:31:52 PM
The sheer lack of Kasen in the last chapters raise some questions regarding Kasen's involvement and perhaps motives in this small situation Reimu is in. Anyway, the way I see how things are in the latest chapter (48) is that Kasen is VERY aware of what has happened to Reimu, and personally might have gone to Hell to help solve the issue ; while on the other side, the discovery made by Tenshi and Komachi, along with Komachi's suspicions regarding Kasen's character might potentially lead them to confront Kasen in the next chapter or something.

Anyway, for the readers armed with some knowledge regarding a certain creature found in japanese folklore, the manga makes it very obvious to them (and certain more savvy characters such as Mamizou) that Kasen might possibly be related to a certain something. Yet, not all the characters seems to have connected the dots, nor  harbor particular suspicions towards Kasen.
Up until last chapter anyway, for some girls.
One of these days, and the day might be close, this problem will potentially have to be addressed :  IF that happens, what's gonna be the reaction of the girls who've been hanging around and familiarised themselves with her for YEARS gonna be ? Cuz most of the time, masquerading yourself as something that you're not is generally a red-ish flag when it comes to your good-guy-ness, and that might probably not work in favor of Kasen IF she gets confronted.

At any rate, with the thing that happened in the main shrine and Reimu vanishing,
dunno what to say aside from "OoOooh, the plot thickens !!!"
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: CyberAngel on December 15, 2018, 07:29:42 PM
Quote from: Paarthurnax
What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?

Anyway, things set up too well for
Kasen being the culprit. Some things just don't add up for her to be helping Reimu, plus there's only been hints for the other way.
It's possible that everything will turn out fine and Kasen will help Reimu out as usual but
that would require more ass-pulls that ZUN usually does, and frankly that would be pretty boring and expected. Shit's already hitting the fan for her, and backpedaling halfway would just waste all that build-up.
Things CAN go either way, though, but I'd prefer the not-boring one.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Shizzo on December 16, 2018, 04:37:20 AM
Let's face it though, whatever happens chances are that in the end Kasen'll still be chums with Reimu & co. and they all will drink tea at the shrine as usual. 
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Lebon14 on December 16, 2018, 09:40:27 PM
Let's face it though, whatever happens chances are that in the end Kasen'll still be chums with Reimu & co. and they all will drink tea at the shrine as usual. 

The unfortunate truth.
Status-quo everybody!
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Drake on February 12, 2019, 12:40:19 AM
guys I can't believe it
Kasen is actually an oni
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Lightmaster on February 12, 2019, 01:40:01 PM
Geez Louise...
who wouldn't have guessed with all those hints given through the story?
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: TresserT on February 12, 2019, 05:43:21 PM
guys I can't believe it
Kasen is actually an oni
Pics or it didn't happen
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: CapTengu on February 12, 2019, 06:27:39 PM
Here you go. Obviously spoilers. (https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comments/aptjql/may_i_lend_you_a_hand_wahh_spoilers/)
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: CyberAngel on February 12, 2019, 07:54:03 PM
Sheesh, all those meme spoilers and you're missing the real shocker:
TWO ARMS
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Suspicious person on February 12, 2019, 09:07:10 PM
Oh wow.

Kasen is an
Oni
.

Who saw this coming.

What a twist.

Early WaHH chapters sorta draw a triangle that links Humans, Hermit and Oni, where if Hermits are Humans who restrain their passions and stuff, then Onis are their complete opposite as they completely give into these. Sort of (at least something to that effect). Since this shows for real that Kasen is and was an
Oni
all along, this to me raises some questions regarding her abilities or regarding the use of powers that belong to another race in general : can any youkai use hermit arts just by practicing ascetism or is it just
an Oni or a Kasen thing ?
Cuz there's no denying that Kasen's Hermit powers and (some) practices are genuine : eating mist, having her own hermit world, EVEN having a Shinigami on her case ...
Like, can she still use her hermit powers now that she's gone full Oni ? Was she not a proper Oni but a Hermit before this ? And some other stuff ...

Spoiler is cool and all, looking forward to the full chapter.

Also rip Kasen hair buns (2010 - 2019), we hardly knew ye
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: PK on February 12, 2019, 10:08:01 PM
I think in some stories oni are created by cursing people? It's possible that the real Kasen was originally an actual hermit, and that she got cursed and turned into a oni. Then she somehow had her oni-ness removed along with her arm (maybe the arm is what was cursed?).
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: TresserT on February 12, 2019, 11:26:21 PM
My friend pointed out that all the youkai sages so far have a separate space/dimension for themselves. Given how Gensokyo is a sort of pocket dimension bound by the border, and given how Kasen has a lot of power over the border, her being able to make her own pocket dimension that resembles a hermit's senkai isn't surprising.

That said, my theory is that Kasen isn't exactly an Oni. We never learned WHY Kasen was searching for her arm. My guess is that it's evil and what we see in the leak isn't Kasen but an Oni resembling Kasen with her arm. The actual Kasen might very well have become a hermit after being separated from her evil arm.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: CapTengu on February 13, 2019, 01:24:12 AM
Perhaps
the arm grew a new body?
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: gilde on February 13, 2019, 05:33:04 AM
Yeah
the arm probably grew a new body
cos
the fancy character title card for evil Kasen straight-up says "Monster Arm that Shuns Good and Cultivates Evil: THE ARM OF IBARAKI-DOUJI "

(which is kind of hilarious imo.
an entire character title card for a literal arm and it has "NAME: ARM" written on it
i love it)
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Drake on February 13, 2019, 08:21:48 AM
Also, here's a completely arbitrary theory: that Kasen has wanted to retrieve her arm not for any personal benefit, but to get it away from the world so it doesn't cause trouble if unsealed. Up until the very end we would be led to believe that she wants to get her arm back for herself, and in order to save Reimu it might seem like she has to make a choice, but surprise her goal was to destroy it or something all along. Maybe.
hmm
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Suspicious person on February 13, 2019, 10:35:11 AM
the fancy character title card for evil Kasen straight-up says "Monster Arm that Shuns Good and Cultivates Evil: THE ARM OF IBARAKI-DOUJI "
Wow, didn't notice that ...

Okay with an arm growing a body, but new clothes and shackles ? Ehh, dunno. Maybe it's like one of those things where all the everything bad within one person (Kasen of the past here) got sealed away inside something (her arm), and this wilder and meaner Kasen is like the bad sealed stuff given form after it got released, and that form is her form from when the bad within her got sealed ? Or something.

 This sorta put Kasen mentioning her arm being "alive" into perspective ...
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: PK on February 13, 2019, 08:20:59 PM
I've seen some other spoilers. I like what i'm seeing.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: the old guy on February 14, 2019, 06:59:34 AM
Oh great, now I have to wait till April...ugh.

BUT, holy crap, an actual FIGHT in a Touhou Manga? That DOESN'T happen off-screen? I hope this lasts.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: PK on February 14, 2019, 07:08:21 AM
And it also looks good.

The next months are gonna be great. Danmaku book, fairies in Hell (?), second half of this, and maybe ZUN announces something new for Reitaisai.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: MrNoobomnenie on February 14, 2019, 08:29:09 AM
Now we have two options how manga will end.
1.
Kasen will get her arm back.
2.
Kasen's arm will be destroyed.
Knowing, how ZUN likes to stay in the status quo, the second one is much more likely.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Lebon14 on February 14, 2019, 06:01:18 PM
Oh yeah, Clarste got the full chapter, fyi.

I didn't check the spoiler before-hand but I knew from the obvious hints that Kasen was what she was.

Zun finally answered a question just to create 15 more. Obviously.

Now, what I wonder, is they are separate entities, somehow. I wonder if the "good" Kasen will come and save Reimu. I'm pretty sure that the Arm-Kasen don't give a shit about danamku, she's out for blood. Heck, I can see good vs. evil Kasen in the next chapter.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Suspicious person on February 14, 2019, 06:31:30 PM
Wow, it's quite a change of pace to see pure, complete and silent
action
instead of the usual exposition that is usually given in Touhou mangas. I've seen people mentioning how impractical action shots in Touhou would be considering the fact that immobile drawings cannot quite capture the kaleidoscope-like patterns and the beauty of danmaku battles, but I have seen my fair share of doujins that have exactly that : it's possible to do it, and this surprisingly works (albeit with less beauty cuz
Oni
)

Making a LOT of assumptions and speculations here, but aside from the
action
, chapter 49 doesn't answer a lot of questions but instead add new ones and can potentially be a bit confusing : with the
distinct character title
, Reimu refering to the
oni Kasen
as an
arm
, and even
oni Kasen talking about her "non-existant" form or something
, I would infer that
oni's arm Kasen should be a distinct "individual" from Hermit Kasen. I would assume that the real form the arm took should be Kasen's form from some point in time, and that she is as wild and vile as the Oni of old cuz oni Kasen was as bad as them back in the days. Like, the personality of  arm Kasen is exactly how the arm "remembered" it to be back before it got severed from Kasen, and this non-existant real form is like a not-updated Kasen or something ... UNLESS it somehow turns out that that's actually just Kasen, then all the crap I said just go out the window.

There are a few things that are still a bit unclear and potentially confusing : is the not-silhouette Kasen the real, actual Kasen or not ? When the oni's arm Kasen refers to Reimu as the Hakurei Shrine Maiden, is it aware of Reimu's identity, as in instead of Reimu being some random girl who is the Hakurei Shrine Maiden, it's a person named Reimu first of all ? What ARE the exact chain of events that lead to Reimu being in Hell ? (still not clarified) Cuz regardless of the various hints towards Kasen being an oni, this story arc, which is pretty major, kinda came out of nowhere.

Anyway, if ZUN intend to have things go back to normal, the way to go would be to have Kasen
and arm Kasen be two distinct people
, with Kasen considering the latter to be some unfinished business of sorts. Tenshi and Komachi will probably confront her on her identity somewhere down the line, and we might get some clarification towards Kasen's motives and objectives at that point. I'm not really expecting Kasen to put her agenda in action tbh, if that does happen then I'd be surprised.

Also, the thing with Reimu's body ending up where she is seems very suspicious to me. It would be TOO good if it was a freak accident involving Reimu accidentally teleporting to ANOTHER WORLD entirely and breaking out of Avici's gimmick ... might possibly be Yukari doing her weird Reimu-all-in gambles again or something ...
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Kilgamayan on February 17, 2019, 04:35:55 PM
Day 0 cosplay! (https://mobile.twitter.com/maoccino/status/1096921909307023361) Well, technically Day 2 cosplay, since this is from Saturday evening, but who's counting? My wife had a lot of fun spoiling everyone at the KatsuCon 2019 Touhou photoshoot with this getup, though I don't know if anyone actually understood the significance of it.

I do sort of wonder if the Japanese fandom has found this picture (or any of the group photoshoot pictures she was in) in any capacity yet. I'm curious as to what they'd think about it getting done so fast. (It's not really visible from the selfie, but the arm and leg chains were also accurate, and clearly there's no wrapped arm.)
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Imosa on March 26, 2019, 02:09:00 AM
Are there summaries of the chapters? I'm trying to catch up on plot points for a panel by May but probably won't have time to read the actual manga.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Lebon14 on March 26, 2019, 03:51:48 AM
Are there summaries of the chapters? I'm trying to catch up on plot points for a panel by May but probably won't have time to read the actual manga.

No there aren't. If the next game is based on the current story, you'll only need to read WaHH chapter 47 to 50 (50 releases next month) and VFiS chapter 12-14 (chapter 14 also releases next month).
Everything aligns up perfectly for Reitaisai...

edit: awful typo nobody should make.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Imosa on April 05, 2019, 12:54:35 AM
No there aren't. If the next game is based on the current story, you'll only need to read WaHH chapter 47 to 50 (50 releases next month) and VFiS chapter 12-14 (chapter 14 also releases next month).
Everything aligns up perfectly for Reitaisai...

edit: awful typo nobody should make.
Actually, it turns out that the wiki has summaries.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: R. P. Genocraft on April 17, 2019, 09:47:35 PM
SHE EVIL
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Lebon14 on April 17, 2019, 09:58:09 PM
SHE EVIL

We know that coz new chapter is out.

And, we finally have confirmation that she's the 3rd Diva (not like there wasn't lots of sign toward it). And, yes, both Kasen joined and became one. We going for the 3rd part. Unfortunately, although this is in Hell, I don't think WaHH goes into the new game at all just because of that new chapter.

EDIT
I like how Kasen just straight up give Reimu food which just strengthen the image of the oni loving playing fair. But here's the question of the century: where does the food come from?
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Suspicious person on April 18, 2019, 02:12:16 AM
Now like I said

Rip Kasen hair buns, we hardly knew ye
Next to them lies good girl Kasen theory, it's bed hath been made in hell (lol)

Goes to show how much Reimu's grown to trust Kasen and even see her as some sort of reliable figure she could always lean on
Reimu would probably get boned (hur hur) were it not for the fact that best girl and Komachi are headed down to Hell as well
Now, I'm a bit lazy to check each and every single one of Kasen's interactions, dialogues and choice of words, but considering that she decided to properly come up as a bad girl, that means that her actions up until now might probably be some kind of act or something. Suika once said that "Oni don't lie" : three options : 1/ Either that is a very literal thing that applies to oni in general and that they can't do anything about and Hermit Kasen got to not follow that rule cuz she's an hermit or 2/ Just some kind of figurative speech that means that straightforwardness is an Oni's very nature and some of them do not necessarily abide by it, just like Remilia's got no problem with crosses although they're considered as one of the vampires' weaknesses.

Some small questions can still be potentially raised regarding Hermit Kasen but these seems like water under the bridge if we're going to go this way.

WaHH is mainly about the antics of the shrine trio (Reimu, Marisa, Kasen), so the introduction of something that rock that very foundation is quite frankly novel in terms of ZUN writing (which tries to stick to a status quo). Not quite sure about things are gonna progress from there, but I must say, it's more interesting than the usual parties and doomed-to-fail business ventures. There are probably ways for things to go back to how they used to be though, so let's just sit and wait.

Also ... necromancy ? And quite the killing spree, apparently, for past Kasen.
...  wonder if we're still gonna get the usual bandage and animal using Kasen chan in the fanarts and doujins
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Sophilia on April 18, 2019, 04:07:17 AM
Suika herself is known to have lied a few times, so it's definitely not a hardcore standard.

That said?  Kasen has been bad news for a while, since the lead-up to ULiL.  She was eagerly waiting for the border to be breached, as if she had something to do with it.  And as it turns out, she did, as soon after, she was revealed as one of Gensokyo's sages, and one siding with humanity over the other youkai at that.  I can only imagine she Senzu Beaned Reimu for the sake of a fair fight, but absorbing her chaotic side probably hasn't changed the situation at hand; namely that Reimu's still stuck in hell even if she wins.  At least until Tenshi shows up.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Raikaria on April 18, 2019, 05:13:41 AM
I get the feeling Kasen was 'sealed' in the past, likly by a predecessor to Reimu, and Kasen was playing the long game to get her power back and revenge. Also; while Oni don't usually lie; Kasen's new title specifically calls her 'treacherous' so it's quite likely that Kasen is an exception.

Also; the timing of this reveal with the announcement of Touhou 17 I do not think is a co-incidence. One of Kasen's powers is some kind of empathy/control of animals. Touhou 17 happens to be based around hostile animal spirits from Hell. Which is apparently Kasen's home now.

Throw in the fact ZUN has outright said he considered making her the EX boss of TD but decided against it.

I think it's quite likly we're going to see 'True Kasen' as either the Stage 6 or EX boss of Touhou 17. There is far too much lining up.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Drake on April 18, 2019, 08:44:38 AM
WaHH is mainly about the antics of the shrine trio (Reimu, Marisa, Kasen), so the introduction of something that rock that very foundation is quite frankly novel in terms of ZUN writing (which tries to stick to a status quo). Not quite sure about things are gonna progress from there, but I must say, it's more interesting than the usual parties and doomed-to-fail business ventures. There are probably ways for things to go back to how they used to be though, so let's just sit and wait.
The next chapter is the final chapter, so uh.

I'm still completely expecting this "betrayal" to be a red herring in some sense. She's probably getting Reimu riled up for a fight for some purpose and everything will be end up fine. She's been trying to get her arm back literally since the beginning of the series so her getting it back isn't exactly unexpected. How Reimu even got the thing is still a mystery.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Fragment on April 19, 2019, 02:26:55 AM
Normally I don't get excited by Touhou manga of all things but wow, plot progression and character development, even if little, it was pretty cool to see something moving forwards in this. I am pretty sure though, like the ending of FS, is going to be rather underwhelming or the fight won't end on a satisfying note. However, I did enjoyed a battle that was very focused (instead of going with exposition during it), and on the point too.

Considering she is one of the 4 devas, I assume that the new game is going to have the 4th and final one in there? probably, as everything that is happening comes from hell And it would be nice to have a, y'know, youkai or demonic being as the antagonist rather than another goddess or ascended human 
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Tiamat on April 23, 2019, 03:11:44 PM
If I recall correctly, Suika actually says in one of the fighting games (I think the first?) something like

"Oni don't lie!  ...well, okay, they can, but they don't like to!"

or something like that.


Oh, it's from Suika's scenario vs Reimu in IAMP

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Immaterial_and_Missing_Power/Story/Suika%27s_Scenario

Suika:  Me? Lie!?  Get real! We oni never lie to humans! Only humans tell lies!

Reimu:  Really?

Suika:  Well, maybe a little. But it's not a lie that I dislike lying.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Raikaria on April 23, 2019, 10:55:36 PM
If I recall it's stated quite often that Oni heavily value honesty, and a big reason they ended up being forced from Youkai Mountain was because they basically assume everyone else is honest in return [Because who'd be dumb enough to incurr an Oni's wrath by lying?] they kept falling for traps. Reimu's honesty is a big reason Suika likes her.

But just because there is a majority and a culture dosen't mean everyone follows it.

Although it does beg the question why Suika didn't just tell Reimu about Kasen if she hates liars and is Reimu's friend. Although I guess Oni don't really betray other Oni either in all likelihood.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: PK on April 24, 2019, 08:39:11 AM
Honestly, with that new character title i'm lead to assume Kasen was like the black sheep among the oni devas.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Lebon14 on June 14, 2019, 04:24:48 AM
Last chapter is out guys!
(Get ready for 50 pages - including 4 pages for an interview)
Zun leaves the door open for another manga!
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Drake on June 14, 2019, 04:58:47 AM
dang i like touhou

Also yay,
I won the Reimubowl 8 months ago ha
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Polaris on June 14, 2019, 05:00:03 AM
Dang, that was a wild ride. I do have some mixed feelings about how it ended (mostly wishing that it wasn't over yet) but I'll hold off on making any minor nitpicks until some of the high of it being the final chapter has worn off.

Edit: do we have like a legit spoiler policy? Maybe like one week from now we can drop the spoiler tags? It's not really fun having discussions where most of it is under a spoiler tag imo. Although this is the latest chapter discussion so maybe it should be a given that there'll be spoilers in here idk
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Gesh86 on June 14, 2019, 10:09:17 AM
I haven't looked into WaHH myself apart from what I picked up from this discussion, but given how excited everyone was about its finale and the curveball near its end, I'm hoping this series gets considered for printed localization more than any other. Now that Forbidden Scrollery has been wrapped up by Yen Press, wouldn't something like WaHH be a logical next step?
Probably depends on how successful the former actually was.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: CyberAngel on June 14, 2019, 04:24:06 PM
Okay, that was a pretty satisfying conclusion. My respect.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: R. P. Genocraft on June 14, 2019, 04:49:35 PM
Not a perfect finale, but definitely not nearly as underwhelming as the FS one.
Title: Re: Wild and Horned Hermit latest chapter discussion
Post by: Suspicious person on June 14, 2019, 06:02:03 PM
And there we go, WaHH, the end. 9 years in the running and an ending that I'd also consider pretty satisfactory : not only does it answer the how, why and when of the everything that suddenly got Reimu
in Hell
, but it also make obvious Kasen's standing when it comes to her arm :
although she does treat it with respect, she acknowledges how dangerous it is and how that dangerousness sorta goes against her current worldview
. Questions sorta gets answered, and the final chapter aptly puts Kasen in the limelight, showing her thoughts and feelings on stuff. I especially liked the way the story was told this time, its like the style completely changed. Things seems a bit ... melodramatic  :wat: ? Dunno, but it's got a very unusual tone.

Now, regarding the ending, except the fact that a Reimu and Tenshi properly confronted Kasen and know for a fact that she is an Oni, Kasen's identity as a Hermit is still pretty much preserved, and so is her relation to other people (since Reimu and Tenshi seems to want to keep it secret anyway) : stuff happened, but things managed to be tied out neatly in a way that lead back to the status quo where Reimu gets to put the arm on display for monies, similar to her previous business (?) ventures.

Now there are some people for whom the notion of status quo itself means, uhh, bad words, in Touhou, I think it's actually pretty fitting for this series, not only owing to its Slice of Life nature, but also something else about what WaHH is at its core : let's consider a few things : you've got an established setting, a clear and identified cast whose personality and motivations you're familiar AND familiarised with, along with some random events that happens in their "world" that lead them to react to it, generally in a silly and comedic way. What exactly is that formula specificaly ? Why, a SITCOM's, of course. WaHH is, at its core, a Sitcom (Situational Comedy), and it's not uncommon for these type of work to "end" when part of the setting changes, the setting being, in this case, Kasen searching for her arm for whatever purpose while hiding her true identity : she
got what she wanted and got exposed to Reimu : regardless of how ignorant everybody else may be, this is sure to permanently alter her relationship with Reimu :
while the status quo is respected and allow the series in general to go business as a usual, things cannot simply be the same for WaHH's "cast".

Now, there are probably a lot of thing to be said regarding how WaHH goes from it's first chapter up to the last, but for me personally, two things : 1/ the art, most obviously, which evolved a lot. Actually, just check and compare for yourself ; and 2/ regarding everything else in the light of the ending, while I've little doubt that ZUN sorta knew where he wanted to go and what kind of conclusion he wanted to go for, a fair number of chapters seem fairly inconsequential in regard to the chapters that lead up to the last one. I guess these ones are probably the ones that give out that Slice of Life, Sitcom vibe the most ? At any rate, seeing some of the various characters that were new at the time the chapters they cameo'd in was released makes me think that WaHH was for the MOST part a bunch of stories that do not necessarily contribute to some kind of greater, overarching story arc and theme. Like, it was more about winging it than planning. Which is fine I guess ?

So yeah, it was nice while it lasted  :)
More Touhou material is always good for me, so seeing one going away is soooooo gonna make the wait before the MONTHS of wait between VFiS publications feel longer. Hopefully we get new stuff, manga specifically, somewhere down the line.
... I guess this is a partner that's gonna be missin' for a while



Also, on a not-so-unrelated note ...
remember the theories about Ex Kasen (aye, that's who I'm gonna call Kasen + her arm HUHHH U GOT A BETTER IDEA ?!!!) potentially popping in TH 17 ? Well,let's just say that Kasen's right arm was not the only thing that got cut this time lol. ZUN seems to throw suspicious curveballs of that kind from time to time (like with ULiL demo's Sumireko silhouette and the Fortune Teller's coincidentally leaked appearance back around the time of ULiL's demo), so, even with Kasen relationship with animals or not, dunno but things ain't quite look stellar for this theory the way I see it ...