Author Topic: [Music+Art] Making Melody Needs Love! Battle's Palette (OC Theme) (2/22/12)  (Read 189538 times)

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Re: ~_~
« Reply #240 on: August 04, 2011, 02:58:45 AM »
I don't know the English word for what I mean.  It's ehh... "having a instrument play a simplified version of the lead melody, but a octave or 2 lower". I think it's called a countermelody.
Harmonics is a better fit than counter-melody, I think. Though I'm also not completely sure, usually a countermelody will have a different rhythm from the melody to generate auditory interest.
Though you aren't limited to octaves - use scales and arpeggios as well! Many of ZUN's trumpet leads are in fourths and thirds (namely Kanako's theme).

What I usually do though is put a string backer on the trumpets, but they usually play the same notes at different octaves.
It seems you are just padding the trumpet bit. What I'd suggest is instead to have the trumpets play two parts at once, melody and harmonics (based on the above). The string backing is for the dead centre parts.
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Anunsew

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ZUN's riffs
« Reply #241 on: August 06, 2011, 12:57:37 AM »
Agh, I can't understand them. I can't even get what chords he is using. I can't break it down, I can't see them step-by-step, hence, I cannot study them. >.<

I'm actually talking about those parts where ZUN just goes crazy with the piano roll.
I'm talking about parts of pieces like:
A Soul As Red as A Ground Cherry at 1:19)
Shanghai Alice in Meiji 17...the whole thing
Necrofantasy's intro
Doll Judgement's intro
Charming Domination (Phantasm) intro
Now die, for the debt you have accumulated at 0:22
Civilization of Magic at 1:25

There's a lot more tracks which I have tried to study, and most of the time my mind just goes blank when I try to understand them.  :derp:
Probably because I headdesk every time I try to emulate his style on the piano roll and it ends up in a major key or something. :o

EDIT:
It's starting to bug me that PARU is almost always online minutes after I post.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2011, 01:01:07 AM by Anunsew ng Sampaguita »

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Re: ZUN's riffs
« Reply #242 on: August 06, 2011, 01:01:44 AM »
Agh, I can't understand them. I can't even get what chords he is using. I can't break it down, I can't see them step-by-step, hence, I cannot study them. >.<

I'm actually talking about those parts where ZUN just goes crazy with the piano roll.
I'm talking about parts of pieces like:
A Soul As Red as A Ground Cherry at 1:19)
Shanghai Alice in Meiji 17...the whole thing
Necrofantasy's intro
Doll Judgement's intro
Charming Domination (Phantasm) intro
Now die, for the debt you have accumulated at 0:22
Civilization of Magic at 1:25

There's a lot more tracks which I have tried to study, and most of the time my mind just goes blank when I try to understand them.  :derp:
Probably because I headdesk every time I try to emulate his style on the piano roll and it ends up in a major key or something. :o
Analyzing ZUN songs directly isn't the easiest way to learn what he uses. One way to study them is to import the MIDIs in FL and solo one track, then analyze that in the piano roll. Significantly easier...but it doesn't always take into account later works (where there are lots of fan-made MIDIs).
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Anunsew

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Re: ZUN's riffs
« Reply #243 on: August 06, 2011, 01:06:30 AM »
Analyzing ZUN songs directly isn't the easiest way to learn what he uses. One way to study them is to import the MIDIs in FL and solo one track, then analyze that in the piano roll. Significantly easier...but it doesn't always take into account later works (where there are lots of fan-made MIDIs).

That's what I do, actually. But it's still hard since there are times when ZUN suddenly deviates from his starting Key signature, and I'm thrown off the scent. >.<

I guess I have to start thinking in chords instead of key signatures...just like a guitar. :P

Also, the other problem is that the tracks which I want to study the most doesn't have an official midi. Like Oriental Love Consultation...so I have to settle for Dichromatic Lotus Butterfly. >.<
Or like Marisa's Dimensional Dream. :3
I'm a sucker for PoDD themes. XD

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Re: ZUN's riffs
« Reply #244 on: August 06, 2011, 01:12:44 AM »
I guess I have to start thinking in chords instead of key signatures...just like a guitar. :P
I usually think in scales and chords when looking at music. Key signature doesn't do too much...occasionally I write songs in one key signature while leaving the settings at the default C Major. :V
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Anunsew

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Boring update is boring.
« Reply #245 on: August 08, 2011, 03:24:47 AM »
A boring update!

Strange Decision
Link!

A very old midi that I composed around...er...*looks at notation data*...May 2, 2010.  However, I didn't finish it back then and a friend of mine made an arrangement of it. The official name was 決定な奇妙の希由 but hey, I can't even read what I just copy/pasted. Er, I think it's supposed to be read as "kettei na kimyou no mare yoshi" or roughly "Strange Reason of Strange Decision". Actually, I just named it 'strange' because...well, it sounds strange.

Anyway, I decided to use the arrangement's midi and have a little practice for this week (since I'm still in a stump--I'm always in a stump, I guess). It doesn't sound too flashy, or too distinctive, except for the fact that if you compare my style of composition a year ago and now--IT SOUNDS SO MUCH THE SAME. WHHHHYYYYY? :(

A little background on this composition though: this was composed after my first try at Satsuki's theme (Missing Girl--lol, brings back memories--but before Cherry Flavored Justice). Around that time, I was involved in a weird project for a danmaku game from a self-proclaimed gaijin circle that doesn't earn any money, nor have released anything besides spam. I wasn't interested in programming back then, but I guess I like playing (dying) in these kinds of games (heck yeah, debug mode+infinite lives for playtesting is 1ΣΣΓ...whatever 1ΣΣΓ means). Things happened, and I was coerced into making BGM's for it as well. This theme was supposed to be the title theme.

Unfortunately the project got stalled indefinitely due to lack of doujin supplies, and other luxurious stuff that we need to burn for our furnace of imagination. Then my employer went to Bermuda triangle for an unknown period of vacation, and I would only hear from him from time to time.  Coincidentally, I've been promoted and is currently the project manager...but I don't know anything about danmakufu, so here I am, crash coursing Allegro and C while learning how to sprite and make music. I guess it's way to go from playtesting...

Oh yeah. I also like to lie a lot. w00t:P
Man I'm bored.


Disclaimer: Yeah. I think I drank seven cups. Or was it eight? Hmm.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 03:31:31 AM by Anunsew ng Sampaguita »

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Re: [Music+Art] Making Melodies needs love!~ (Last Remote Remix 8/03/11)!
« Reply #246 on: August 08, 2011, 03:39:28 AM »
Hm, lacks compression and it was recorded too close to peak.

Sometimes the drums overpower the melody...which is itself at times unclear. Same for the strings on the left and right.

At times the top of the melody is a bit lonely and may need some complementing with another instrument or a harmonic part.
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

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Re: [Music+Art] Making Melodies needs love!~ (Last Remote Remix 8/03/11)!
« Reply #247 on: August 08, 2011, 03:44:53 AM »
Hm, lacks compression and it was recorded too close to peak.
Oversaturated I guess. I was experimenting with saturating the peaks at -4db. It never actually reaches 0db. I've heard and seen some good uses of saturation, but I guess it takes practice.

Sometimes the drums overpower the melody...which is itself at times unclear. Same for the strings on the left and right.
I'm really having trouble with this. I just wing the drum's peak by ear using different headphones, so I don't have a steady rule for this. I often read that kicks are usually at -6db, and snares at -8db, but that's a bit too loud for me. Any tips would be appreciated.

I usually do:
Leads at -19~-12db
Bass at -20db
Percussives at -12~-6db

then I just master them using additive gain and EQ. I've seen somewhere that it's better to mix at low levels, but my headphone's sensitivity is pretty low. It's only at about -30~ish.

As for panning...I don't hard-pan, but usually I just do them by ear. I don't follow a steady rule on this either. >.<

At times the top of the melody is a bit lonely and may need some complementing with another instrument or a harmonic part.
It's not supposed to be a complex theme, though I think I should've added some more accents.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 03:52:22 AM by Anunsew ng Sampaguita »

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Re: [Music+Art] Making Melodies needs love!~ (Last Remote Remix 8/03/11)!
« Reply #248 on: August 08, 2011, 03:59:09 AM »
Oversaturated I guess. I was experimenting with saturating the peaks at -4db. It never actually reaches 0db. I've heard and seen some good uses of saturation, but I guess it takes practice.
Certainly, practice is key.

Quote
I'm really having trouble with this. I just wing the drum's peak by ear using different headphones, so I don't have a steady rule for this. I often read that kicks are usually at -6db, and snares at -8db, but that's a bit too loud for me. Any tips would be appreciated.

I usually do:
Leads at -19~-12db
Bass at -20db
Percussives at -12~-6db

then I just master them using additive gain and EQ. I've seen somewhere that it's better to mix at low levels, but my headphone's sensitivity is pretty low. It's only at about -30~ish.
I'd love to assist but like you I don't have any steady rules for drums. Mixing at low levels and even mono helps greatly. Also I usually work exclusively with studio or semi-studio headphones, which generally have greater sensitivity and great coverage of the audio frequency spectrum (consumer ones generally over-amplify certain frequency ranges, usually bass).

Quote
As for panning...I don't hard-pan, but usually I just do them by ear. I don't follow a steady rule on this either. >.<
Ditto....

Quote
It's not supposed to be a complex theme, though I think I should've added some more accents.
A bit more variety is definitely something that'd fit here. Also more variety in tones.
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Anunsew

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Finally decided to fix something...
« Reply #249 on: August 10, 2011, 03:02:36 AM »
Unlikely Anguish ~ Last Remote Version 2.0.1.
The numbers were made up.

Anyway, fixed a few things in the composition.
  • Fixed the volume of percussions.
  • Added some harmonics to the notes. Not much though,  I'd have to re-EQ the whole thing if I did.
  • Fixed Pre-Amp gains. It led to a clearer post-EQ samples.
  • Added some pads*is knifed*
  • Gave up and disabled the freakin' saturation and replaced it with soft clipping. It's much more clearer now.
  • Added some new channels. It's now my most populated track, with 31 channels or so. With the proper application of a satellite dish, I might get NHK in my home tv.
  • Fixed the low band problem. Too much post-gain in the low band led to a really annoying fuzzy sound in my last release version.
  • Fixed the annoying bug that keeps biting me in the arm. Killed with my one bare hand. BARE HAND!!!
    You are already dead, bug.

But all in all, it's pretty much the same composition. Funny how something that I fixed for an hour could sound so much the same. :yukkuri:

Oh yeah. It's 2db louder since I lifted the saturation.  :derp:
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 03:05:30 AM by Anunsew ng Sampaguita »

Re: Finally decided to fix something...
« Reply #250 on: August 10, 2011, 03:44:03 AM »
But all in all, it's pretty much the same composition. Funny how something that I fixed for an hour could sound so much the same. :yukkuri:

Do you really think so ? I found it to be a very good improvement over the original mix.

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Re: Finally decided to fix something...
« Reply #251 on: August 10, 2011, 09:30:27 AM »
Do you really think so ? I found it to be a very good improvement over the original mix.

I wasn't really talking about the improvement. I was thinking more about the 'feel' of the song. I didn't do any major changes on it--if I would put it in perspective, it would be like cake.
The first one was a chocolate cake, which is good, but I messed up a little on the icing. It's still a good cake though.
On the other hand, this one has a better icing. It tastes better, but it's still the same chocolate cake, same basic taste. :)

In a more important note though, maybe it's time to focus more on the composition of the cake rather than the icing. My recipe is going to stagnate at any rate.

Damn, food metaphors always give me a warm, fuzzy feeling.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 09:32:00 AM by Anunsew ng Sampaguita »

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Some Japanese Kanji ~ Wounded Clockwork Doll
« Reply #252 on: August 22, 2011, 01:14:12 AM »

械時計の歌 ~ Wounded Clockwork Doll
Youtube link

An OC request by Just50001 for his/her character Eva Lundahl.

First things first, I changed my rendering technique in order to make room for enhanced stereo separation + delay widening during the mastering stage. I don't know if it sounds better though. Well, it just sounds louder on a mono headphone.
 :P

Anyway, I was messing with some stuff with THfont, like the squares and pianos. Had also some fun with portamento in making the "spring sound" around 0:30 ~ 0:52. Also, as PARU once recommended, I tried to do some basic counterpointing in the composition. Also dropped some trumpet parts and exchanged it for the flutes, cause flutes are awesome. Why? Because a theme with a flute's sake NOT EVEN ONE DROP.

Regardless, I still have to work on my oversaturating issues. I exchanged FL Limiter for FL Soft Clipper in order to lessen distortion approaching -5db, but I guess the main problem is still at the fundamental level. Awww...

I still need to work on making my compositions clearer without making it sound too "bright" and Midi-y. :/
Or maybe just clearer.



« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 01:35:23 AM by Anunsew ng Sampaguita »

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Re: Some Japanese Kanji ~ Wounded Clockwork Doll
« Reply #253 on: August 22, 2011, 02:01:03 AM »

械時計の歌 ~ Wounded Clockwork Doll

An OC request by Just50001 for his/her character Eva Lundahl.
Not bad, not bad.

Quote
First things first, I changed my rendering technique in order to make room for enhanced stereo separation + delay widening during the mastering stage. I don't know if it sounds better though. Well, it just sounds louder on a mono headphone.
 :P
I can definitely notice that.

Quote
Anyway, I was messing with some stuff with THfont, like the squares and pianos. Had also some fun with portamento in making the "spring sound" around 0:30 ~ 0:52. Also, as PARU once recommended, I tried to do some basic counterpointing in the composition. Also dropped some trumpet parts and exchanged it for the flutes, cause flutes are awesome. Why? Because a theme with a flute's sake NOT EVEN ONE DROP.
Pianos are meh, but it's to do with the soundfont. Then again it's not like the Hyper Canvas/TTS-1 and SD-xx series pianos (maybe bar the SD-50 but that is not related to the other SD modules) are much better.

While I like the portamento usage, I am not so sure of the patch that is used for the base.

Yep, I hear some countermelodies.

ZUN tends to use more Flute Vib., Hybrid Saw, and Reed Romance (Alto + Tenor Sax) over Romantic Tp., especially on UFO and later.

Quote
Regardless, I still have to work on my oversaturating issues. I exchanged FL Limiter for FL Soft Clipper in order to lessen distortion approaching -5db, but I guess the main problem is still at the fundamental level. Awww...
Problem's still likely at amplification and compression areas.

Quote
I still need to work on making my compositions clearer without making it sound too "bright" and Midi-y. :/
Or maybe just clearer.
Yeah, I'll say 'more clear' to that.

I suggest you start playing with the ADSR (Attack/Delay/Sustain/Release) envelopes for the instruments. This may involve loading the SF2 in a VST host such as SFZ+ (free, and allows for GUI-based parameter adjustment per channel), direct adjustment with integrated GUI, or the use of SysEx commands to adjust it.
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Anunsew

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Re: Some Japanese Kanji ~ Wounded Clockwork Doll
« Reply #254 on: August 22, 2011, 02:20:16 AM »
Thanks for the feedback PARU. You always seem to give useful info in your every post. I might consider stalking you now. XD

Pianos are meh, but it's to do with the soundfont. Then again it's not like the Hyper Canvas/TTS-1 and SD-xx series pianos (maybe bar the SD-50 but that is not related to the other SD modules) are much better.
If this keeps up, I'll stick with Hyper Canvas instead. Less of a hassle to EQ at varying freqs, but it eats more CPU.

While I like the portamento usage, I am not so sure of the patch that is used for the base.
Portamento part was done with THfont's Dulcimer set at 1:05 (bar slide) accompanied by a custom made harmonics sound done using a FL's FMDX10 synthesizer. It's barely audible, but coupled with the square pitched at +10 cents, it sounds interesting.

Yep, I hear some countermelodies.

ZUN tends to use more Flute Vib., Hybrid Saw, and Reed Romance (Alto + Tenor Sax) over Romantic Tp., especially on UFO and later.
I'll keep that combination in mind. I'm still unfamiliar with composing original pieces, but I think I'm getting the hang of it.

Problem's still likely at amplification and compression areas.
It might be just be me, but THfont sounds over-amplified when it was sampled...well, I guess it comes with being free...
I should do more aggressive subtractive gains next time.
Or maybe I should follow some MIDI composition habits that I saw on youtube.
Chords first. Then melody. Then percussion.
Not Melody+chords+percussion, then pads. I think I used 30+ channels on this track.

Yeah, I'll say 'more clear' to that.
Aye, I'll do better next time.

I suggest you start playing with the ADSR (Attack/Delay/Sustain/Release) envelopes for the instruments. This may involve loading the SF2 in a VST host such as SFZ+ (free, and allows for GUI-based parameter adjustment per channel), direct adjustment with integrated GUI, or the use of SysEx commands to adjust it.
I'm not sure if it's the same ADSR in the FL soundfont player but...

Is it something like that? I've never tinkered with it before since I don't really know what they do (besides Attack, I was messing with it for sometime now).

wow that's some lossy jpeg...MS Paint's jpeg conversion really blows.

Well, I think the Stereo seperation and widening did something good, so I'll stick with it for now. Good-bye FL Limiter. I guess I'll never use you for the Mastering bus ever again. >.<
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 02:25:37 AM by Anunsew ng Sampaguita »

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Re: Some Japanese Kanji ~ Wounded Clockwork Doll
« Reply #255 on: August 22, 2011, 02:43:01 AM »
Thanks for the feedback PARU. You always seem to give useful info in your every post. I might consider stalking you now. XD
Ehe...also funny how the PARU name is still retained after two name changes on my part :V

Quote
If this keeps up, I'll stick with Hyper Canvas instead. Less of a hassle to EQ at varying freqs, but it eats more CPU.
IIRC you can set Hyper Canvas/TTS-1 on Light Load mode to reduce its need for CPU.

Quote
Portamento part was done with THfont's Dulcimer set at 1:05 (bar slide) accompanied by a custom made harmonics sound done using a FL's FMDX10 synthesizer. It's barely audible, but coupled with the square pitched at +10 cents, it sounds interesting.
Ah.

Quote
I'll keep that combination in mind. I'm still unfamiliar with composing original pieces, but I think I'm getting the hang of it.
I was just listing various SD-80/90 patches ZUN uses. You can approximate them, though, with a little parameter tweaking and instrument layering. *looks at Bigode's, Spaztique's, and my psuedo-ZUNpet patches made with Hyper Canvas/TTS-1*

Quote
It might be just be me, but THfont sounds over-amplified when it was sampled...well, I guess it comes with being free...
Yeah, usually free soundfonts aren't that good. The one I tend to use most is SGM, which is a good bit larger than THFont, and even then I prefer using Hyper Canvas, VSC, and S-YXG50 VSTis, even though the latter two have very basic interfaces (S-YXG50 doesn't even have a GUI for adjusting instruments ???).

Quote
I should do more aggressive subtractive gains next time.
Or maybe I should follow some MIDI composition habits that I saw on youtube.
Chords first. Then melody. Then percussion.
Not Melody+chords+percussion, then pads. I think I used 30+ channels on this track.
Chord -> Melody -> Percussion is a common and easy way to quickly write music. Admittedly I tend to do Melody -> Bass -> Harmony -> Counterparts -> Percussion more often, however. :ohdear:

Quote
I'm not sure if it's the same ADSR in the FL soundfont player but...

Is it something like that? I've never tinkered with it before since I don't really know what they do (besides Attack, I was messing with it for sometime now).
Yeah, that is about right.

ADSR envelope information.

Also, for vibrato you can use the LFO settings, but they may need a source (such as note velocity). I prefer using modulation to adjust it, but it may not work for all instruments and is significantly easier to do with a keyboard controller.

Quote
wow that's some lossy jpeg...MS Paint's jpeg conversion really blows.
Convert to PNG instead. Also get Paint.NET.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 02:56:55 AM by MU500 Bullet Synthesisis »
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Anunsew

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Remastering with only the most manliest tools around. ~Liek voulem evenloeps~
« Reply #256 on: August 26, 2011, 02:56:38 AM »
Re-mastered Nightshade Spirit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ1vVidED_A

This track has been made months ago...around before June. Anyway, I decided to improve the composition by massive axe-chopping, like frequency dropping, filtering and patch configurations. It ended up a lot clearer now. I mean, I can hear the bassline in this version~

Also, I applied my six-step ThFont Romantic Trumpet adjustment. The first version didn't use it because it eats too much CPU.
Basically it uses the following steps:
Adjusting Sounfont Wrapper Post Gain (or the volume before it is sent to the mixer track. This is done to make EQing easier)
Parametric EQ setting (This is really touchy, and my current EQ setting only allows RomaT to play properly at C5 to B7. Any higher or lower makes it sound too dull because of massive filtering. Still have to improve this.)
Flanging (To introduce a neat LFO and wah-wah effect to the trumpet. It's barely audible though, but it helps with the Chorus effect)
Chorus (Another hard one. I use FL's presets to mess with this one.)
Reverb (I use DM's Glaceverb settings. It sounds better that way.)
Final Post Gain (adjust the volume before it is sent to master bus)

Wow, no wonder RomaT kills off my CPU. >.<
This setting was finalized in my rendition of Last Remote, but was first used for Oriental Love Consultation (though the effects were in different order. It makes a lot of difference too).
Unfortunately, this setting is of little use for trumpet riffs like Murasa's theme. It isn't "dry" and "crunchy" enough...

In the remix, I also used a lot of Celesta (the original used vibraphones which added to the distortion of the "wet" freqs).
Also, the piano is from Hyper Canvas now, not THfont.
:P
String ensembles, bass, and paddings are still ThFont. :D


..now messing with FL Slayer and some patch combinations...
I'm might kill some youkai if I'm not careful...
Bad pun is bad.

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Re: [Music+Art] Making Melodies needs love! ~ (Update 08/26/11)
« Reply #257 on: August 26, 2011, 10:03:59 AM »
While it's not a bad song, I think there are a few things to address:
 - I find the drums and Romatic Tp. too energetic for a song that claims to be more of a depressing one. I'd slow down the tempo a bit, change the drum set(s) used to a lighter one (snares, especially), and for the trumpet I'd lower the cutoff and raise attack slightly to give it a warmer feel.
 - Use Piano 1 St. instead of Piano 1 on Hyper Canvas. It's more manipulable and doesn't have as much of that cheesy bright MIDI feel.
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Anunsew

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Re: [Music+Art] Making Melodies needs love! ~ (Update 08/26/11)
« Reply #258 on: August 26, 2011, 12:13:48 PM »
too energetic
Really? *sips coffee*

Seriously though, I still need to work on synchronizing my emotions with what I do. My tracks still feel unattached to me.
Meh, I'll probably understand it with experience.

lower the cutoff
What does cutoff do? I can't seem to hear anything besides lowering the maximum frequency of the patch. I've never touched that control since then.
What I've read doesn't seem to help, because it just confirmed my assumptions. I don't know any clear use for it yet.

- Use Piano 1 St. instead of Piano 1 on Hyper Canvas. It's more manipulable and doesn't have as much of that cheesy bright MIDI feel.
Aww. I kinda liked that patch. >.<
I like the bright feeling on my piano sounds (though I hate it on everything else, especially on strings and basses). That's why I still use the Microsoft GS Wavetable's Patch 1 to 3 from time to time. :P


I am beginning to wonder why "cheesy" is the favorite adjective in describing Midi-ish sounds.
Even FL Studio uses that adjective.
There's even a website that uses the word to describe their Midis.

I'm getting hungry.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2011, 12:17:12 PM by Anunsew »

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Re: [Music+Art] Making Melodies needs love! ~ (Update 08/26/11)
« Reply #259 on: August 26, 2011, 01:07:59 PM »
Really? *sips coffee*

Seriously though, I still need to work on synchronizing my emotions with what I do. My tracks still feel unattached to me.
Meh, I'll probably understand it with experience.
Yeah, it is a bit energetic and that coffee isn't helping (though I could use some...morning over here and I've been up for a while now).

As for tracks and emotion connection, I am still trying to learn what makes this tick as well....

Quote
What does cutoff do? I can't seem to hear anything besides lowering the maximum frequency of the patch. I've never touched that control since then.
What I've read doesn't seem to help, because it just confirmed my assumptions. I don't know any clear use for it yet.
It is, in a sense, a frequency limiter for patches. Increasing cutoff will take off the higher frequencies, resulting in a darker, less articulated sound.

While research is good, I find experimentation with it a much better way to learn how to utilise it for your needs.

Quote
Aww. I kinda liked that patch. >.<
I like the bright feeling on my piano sounds (though I hate it on everything else, especially on strings and basses). That's why I still use the Microsoft GS Wavetable's Patch 1 to 3 from time to time. :P
Well, in the General MIDI standard Patch 2 (or 1, depending on implementation :V) is a Bright Piano. I like to use Piano 2 St. a lot when relying on Hyper Canvas/TTS-1 or the Classic Bank of the SD-20/80/90 (which the Hyper Canvas and TTS-1 are based off of).

And don't use MSGS synth pianos. They're just worse versions of the SC-55 pianos, which themselves are terrible by modern standards. (now to see if I can get a piano plug-in board for my MU1000....)

Quote
I am beginning to wonder why "cheesy" is the favorite adjective in describing Midi-ish sounds.
Even FL Studio uses that adjective.
There's even a website that uses the word to describe their Midis.
The term 'Cheesy' is used for MIDI descriptions because they tend to sound very fake and inexpressibly clich?. It also doesn't help that 99% of people rely exclusively on the MSGS synth or QuickTime Music Synthesizer, both of which are licensed and heavily bastardized versions of the SC-55 sound map.

Furthermore, most MIDIs are made to be played on a variety of hardware, so their writers relied almost exclusively on what was presented in General MIDI standard, which, when compared to Roland's GS or Yamaha's XG standards, was very limited. So many of the General MIDI presets, especially when played on MSGS (by consumers) or SC-55 (by composers - this was one of the most popular modules for writing on), have become clich? instruments due to such frequent use.

Quote
I'm getting hungry.
Muffins and scones go great with coffee. ;)
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Anunsew

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Lazy Update (September 9, 2011)~
« Reply #260 on: September 09, 2011, 02:46:21 AM »

Requested by: Karanum

Stage 3 Boss theme
Dani

I've changed a lot of things in my approach to composition They're too many too list (or remember) so I'm not gonna do a memo of that today (yay!).

I'm starting to see the limitations of my ability now. It's a bit depressing because I still have a long way to go.  This theme is making me think of why I am composing game pieces in the fist place. :P

Why am I composing, and for what purpose? What do I really want to do with my pieces? I am starting to question my motive for being a composer. This theme is like a message to myself. XD

Still, it's too late to back out now. I've decided to go on, even if I don't know where composing will take me. I have no talent in music, and everything I do is mimicked from what I've seen and heard from others. I don't have much originality. It's sobering to think that I might not be composing at all if I just said no to doing Rin's theme. But I'm still having fun, so I guess it's okay~ :yukkuri:


It's ironic, since I'm having these philosophical thoughts on Cirno day. XD

Re: [Music+Art] Making Melodies needs love! ~ (Update 09/09/11)
« Reply #261 on: September 09, 2011, 03:57:59 AM »
I would say you have reached a certain level of musical maturity, even if just because you're dropping the trumpet for a bit and using other instruments for lead.
I think you're doing pretty well so far.

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FM means Frequence Modulation!...or Fan made. I forgot. Probably both...oh well.
« Reply #262 on: September 24, 2011, 12:45:39 AM »

ニモ行先 ∼ Nemo dat quod non habet

First try with FM synthesis. This was tracked using VGM Music Maker (developed by Shiru) and recorded to 22~khz with Wave out sampling. This link is Mp3 though, so I had to upsample it again to 44~khz. Audacity punches me in the face when it tries to convert a 22~khz sample to mp3. Must be my outdated lame_enc.dll.
:P

Anyway, my musical urge is like a blank wall for two weeks now (I'm painting it red though, so I'm not too bored). I decided to try out FM synthesis and frankly, I don't have a clue what I am doing. All those knobs in the instrument settings are making me dizzy. :smokedcheese:

In the end, I just used Hoot's drum samples (internally resampled at 11~khz) and the instrument presets available with the download. I have no clue how to make melodic sounds with FM (aside from the "beep" sound...) so I'm stuck with them atm.

On a good note though, FM synthesis lets me practice my keyboarding skills...on my keyboard. Literally on my typing keyboard. Yay :toot:
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 01:26:22 AM by Anunsew »

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ニモ行先 ∼ Nemo dat quod non habet

First try with FM synthesis. This was tracked using VGM Music Maker (developed by Shiru) and recorded to 22~khz with Wave out sampling. This link is Mp3 though, so I had to upsample it again to 44~khz. Audacity punches me in the face when it tries to convert a 22~khz sample to mp3. Must be my outdated lame_enc.dll.
:P
FM synthesis :*
* EP puts FM8, along with Korg's M1 and Wavestation softsynths, ChipSounds, and Kontakt Elements, on Christmas list

I don't have too many problems with 22kHz MP3s, myself. Then again I tend to use my DAW for encoding to MP3.

Quote
Anyway, my musical urge is like a blank wall for two weeks now (I'm painting it red though, so I'm not too bored). I decided to try out FM synthesis and frankly, I don't have a clue what I am doing. All those knobs in the instrument settings are making me dizzy. :smokedcheese:

In the end, I just used Hoot's drum samples and the instrument presets available with the download. I have no clue how to make melodic sounds with FM (aside from the "beep" sound...) so I'm stuck with them atm.
FM synthesis is considered difficult but with the right controls and experimentation you can get some very good results!

I don't really like Hoot's drum samples and presets.

IIRC VGM Music Maker emulates a YM2612 (Sega Megadrive) and not a YM2608/YM288 (NEC PC-98). Therefore there are slight differences that need to be noted. I'm more partial to the sounds of the YM2612, YM2151 (Capcom CPS1), and especially the DX-7, personally, but I digress.

Quote
On a good note though, FM synthesis lets me practice my keyboarding skills...on my keyboard. Literally on my typing keyboard. Yay :toot:
Isn't VGM Music Maker a tracker program? You're practising with tracker notation, really, not FM. FM synthesis can be done just as well or even better with other programs, VSTis/AUs, and even hardware controllers or synths.



Anyways, to song....

Pads seem to have too little attack and tend to overpower. Lead instrument seems to have too much sustain, and a bit more variety would be nice (use all the channels!)

For examples of FM synthesis, I'd take a listen at the OSTs of Bare Knuckle / Streets of Rage series, Megadrive Sonic games, Street Fighter II, and Alien Soldier (oh, and this Tim Follin song). I don't think ZUN is a very good example.
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Anunsew

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Re: [Music+Art] Making Melodies needs love! ~ FM is yay ~ (Update 09/25/11)
« Reply #264 on: September 24, 2011, 01:40:08 AM »
I don't really like Hoot's drum samples and presets.
I don't know how to make my own FM drums. I've read somewhere that the PSG channel can be used for Crash cymbals, but I can't make anything other than static noise. >.<

IIRC VGM Music Maker emulates a YM2612 (Sega Megadrive) and not a YM2608/YM288 (NEC PC-98). Therefore there are slight differences that need to be noted. I'm more partial to the sounds of the YM2612, YM2151 (Capcom CPS1), and especially the DX-7, personally, but I digress.
I...have no way of distinguishing the chipsets. I've never heard anything other than emulated chiptunes. :P


Anyways, to song....

Pads seem to have too little attack and tend to overpower. Lead instrument seems to have too much sustain, and a bit more variety would be nice (use all the channels!)
I'm using all the provided FM (6) channels, the sixth channel being used for the wave sample bank. I'm still experimenting with it though, so I expect myself to improve. As for variety...I need to find more settings, or learn the basics of wave modulation...

On the other hand, I can't seem to understand the use of PSG channels...

For examples of FM synthesis, I'd take a listen at the OSTs of Bare Knuckle / Streets of Rage series, Megadrive Sonic games, Street Fighter II, and Alien Soldier (oh, and this Tim Follin song). I don't think ZUN is a very good example.

Thanks, consulting them nao.

Isn't VGM Music Maker a tracker program? You're practising with tracker notation, really, not FM. FM synthesis can be done just as well or even better with other programs, VSTis/AUs, and even hardware controllers or synths.

I guess so. I can make weird sound effects with it though.

I don't want to use the heavier VSTis since it eats up CPU and makes composition very hard.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 01:49:40 AM by Anunsew »

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Re: [Music+Art] Making Melodies needs love! ~ FM is yay ~ (Update 09/25/11)
« Reply #265 on: September 24, 2011, 02:42:37 AM »
I don't know how to make my own FM drums. I've read somewhere that the PSG channel can be used for Crash cymbals, but I can't make anything other than static noise. >.<
FM drums are not too hard, at least not FM bass drums and maybe some hi-hats. I'd suggest better samples instead, especially for Megadrive-style FM synthesis. (though the sound quality of the samples better not be too good or it'll ruin the feel :V)

PSG can be used for crash cymbals indeed. The static noise serves that purpose.

Quote
I...have no way of distinguishing the chipsets. I've never heard anything other than emulated chiptunes. :P
I've heard a fair share of both actual and emulated hardware, and from what I've heard they do have their differences in implementation, channels, operators, and miscellaneous features.

Quote
I'm using all the provided FM (6) channels, the sixth channel being used for the wave sample bank. I'm still experimenting with it though, so I expect myself to improve. As for variety...I need to find more settings, or learn the basics of wave modulation...
All at once? Hm, there can still be more flexibility.
As for variety, I'd suggest playing with the FM Operators and oscillators to produce a desired sound.

Quote
On the other hand, I can't seem to understand the use of PSG channels...
PSG channels (square waves + noise in the case of the 2612) were used for all sorts of purposes. One of the most common ones was to act as an echo layer for the main instruments which were based on the FM chip. They are also frequently used in harmony portions.

In the case of the PC-98, though, the Rhythm channel of the PSG was used for basic drum-like sounds (on the 2608) and as a backing layer for the PCM drums and cymbals (on the 288), as well as the harmony bits.

Quote
I guess so. I can make weird sound effects with it though.
Same with all the rest.

Quote
I don't want to use the heavier VSTis since it eats up CPU and makes composition very hard.
Ah, gotcha. There are some light ones around IIRC (VOPM comes to mind).

Also, your next system pretty much needs a better CPU - quad-core minimum, I say!
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Anunsew

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Re: [Music+Art] Making Melodies needs love! ~ FM is yay ~ (Update 09/25/11)
« Reply #266 on: September 24, 2011, 05:28:54 AM »
How do you compose music with "real" FM synthesis anyway? Most of what I've seen or read in the Internet are about making sound effects and samples with it, like with Sytrus VST in FL.

External samples are fine I guess, but I really want to figure out how to mess with the wave modulation operators. The documentation of the software only comes with the basic explanation of the operator's ASDR envelope and the desired algorithms for linking the operators.

I like to make my own sounds ever since I heard FM tracker's using their own instrument settings for their tracks; they turned out pretty good.

Quote from: PARU
All at once? Hm, there can still be more flexibility.

I actually used only three instruments. An bass, the Vibraphone lead, and the Acoustic backer (not my operator presets. I Just ripped them from existing demo tracks that came with the software, the name came from the original tracks). I just used different octaves for different parts. VGM Music Maker can only play one sample in a frame, and uses one FM channel (FM6) for sample output, disabling any effects and volume instructions in that channel.

All in all, FM tracking is quite fun. I might try doing another track sometime. Shame that I have to follow TV frames for the bpm...it bugs me that I have to use weird float-point values as my bpm.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2011, 05:31:28 AM by Anunsew »

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Re: [Music+Art] Making Melodies needs love! ~ FM is yay ~ (Update 09/25/11)
« Reply #267 on: September 24, 2011, 06:57:29 AM »
How do you compose music with "real" FM synthesis anyway? Most of what I've seen or read in the Internet are about making sound effects and samples with it, like with Sytrus VST in FL.
In a similar manner as other forms of synthesis - get instruments (or make them! :D), write track, mix and edit, publish.

Some purists will demand you get an actual hardware FM chip, usually a DX-7 and its variants (DX-7IIFD, DX200, PLG150-DX, etc.) or a 1990s Sound Blaster / Adlib card with another old system if you want the 'real' sound. Personally, I favour hardware but am willing to use software such as FM8 instead due to the quality of the emulation. (sadly the Roland D-50, with its linear arithmetic (LA) synthesis, doesn't have the same treatment yet as a softsynth unit)

Quote
External samples are fine I guess, but I really want to figure out how to mess with the wave modulation operators. The documentation of the software only comes with the basic explanation of the operator's ASDR envelope and the desired algorithms for linking the operators.
YM2612 did not really do this - just raw ADPCM samples that did not really have effects applied. The operator algorithms appear to be more for the FM synthesis portions, since the chips are operator-based (DX-7 had 6 sine wave operators, for instance).

Quote
I like to make my own sounds ever since I heard FM tracker's using their own instrument settings for their tracks; they turned out pretty good.
This part is especially fun with the right controller / software. I tend to use FM1 in Logic, which creates sounds very quickly but lacks some of the more intricate technical parts that characterize FM synthesis for many.

Quote
I actually used only three instruments. An bass, the Vibraphone lead, and the Acoustic backer (not my operator presets. I Just ripped them from existing demo tracks that came with the software, the name came from the original tracks). I just used different octaves for different parts. VGM Music Maker can only play one sample in a frame, and uses one FM channel (FM6) for sample output, disabling any effects and volume instructions in that channel.
...I say more instruments are needed. It seems to show a repeat of one of your trends - using a few instruments across many roles and a wide spectrum - which doesn't really add up much to auditory interest.

Channel 6 on the YM2612 can alternate between FM and PCM output, but not both.

Quote
All in all, FM tracking is quite fun. I might try doing another track sometime. Shame that I have to follow TV frames for the bpm...it bugs me that I have to use weird float-point values as my bpm.
That's tracker-based sequencing for ya. I never had to follow TV frames myself, however, but I used OpenMPT instead.

FM, AN (analog), and LA synthesis are considerably technical and present quite a difficulty curve. Many starters thus don't get into these early on, and stick with samplers and wavetable synthesis. Parameter modification is a must for effective use of these.
Tracker modules frequently employ many effects during the track that are applied as they are played, not too dissimilar from MIDI events.
Combine the two and you can get quite a neat combination!

Also, funny you're still relying on the (temporary) PARU name. I'd prefer being called by nickname (EP) instead, for consistency reasons.
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Anunsew

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Bwahaha~
« Reply #268 on: September 25, 2011, 05:58:12 AM »
Ah, I see. So technically speaking, tracking and FM synthesis are two different steps. I don't like the prospect of hunting down soundchips in my country (I'll probably find used sound chips in Raon - a place in my country that's full of people and stuff that you don't expect to turn up there, but I hate crowds *shudders* ).  I'll probably stick with soft synths for now :smokedcheese:

Quote from: EP
The operator algorithms appear to be more for the FM synthesis portions, since the chips are operator-based (DX-7 had 6 sine wave operators, for instance).

Ah, so that's how it is. VGM uses four sine operators for FM synthesis, with the designated generators and modulators assigned for each algorithm. Going to mess with it for a while.

Quote from: EP
It seems to show a repeat of one of your trends - using a few instruments across many roles and a wide spectrum - which doesn't really add up much to auditory interest.

I gotta find some way to break this wall. I've been experimenting with the PSG channels, and I find the noise channel more suitable for snares instead of the Hoot Samples. I can't seem to make tones in PSG that doesn't sound "square"-ish, but I guess I can use it for the sixteenth note mayhem FM trackers usually do.

I'm getting progress with FL, but I'm becoming more meticulous in mixing. I've dropped Maximus from my tools, since it compresses the audio track too much. I think it's much more suitable for acoustic recording than synthesized and sampled sounds. I also stopped using Limiters, since it causes volume distortions at very high levels. Instead, I've adapted to using only the Panning and Volume controls to maintain the auditory balance.I've been also experimenting with note velocities, but I think it's more efficient to use automated volume envelops for the purpose of dynamics. I've been experimenting more with Parametric EQs, since they let me chisel the freqs in a finer matter, as compared to the standard three-band EQ.

Editing ADSR envelopes for thFont is extra work, but it does wonders for the string patches (like Viola, Cadenza Strings). I've also noticed that arpeggiating certain instruments from thFont causes interesting results (like the Bass Picks & Mutes patch). I still can't do the technique with pianos. When I mix them in a track, they become either too soft, or too overpowering. I can't seem to mix them in the "middle" of the track.

However, the main weakness I'm facing with thFont are pads. The soundfont doesn't have any suitable pads for my interests (or I can't seem to use them properly). The string patches are too strong, but the synthetic pads are usually too soft. Polysynth patch is promising (used it for Sammy's theme last year), but it's only good at high octaves. The Metal and Halo pads are uncontrollable; the sample's reverb is whacked and hard to filter out, and applying a low pass filter makes it sound too nasal. The Space Voice pad has too much attack (ph~AH!), a trait shared by Voice Ooh (ph~OH!). Choir Aah is good, but it sounds TOO voice-like (like the ones used for Catastrophe at Bhava-Agra). Synth voice is good enough I guess, but I need more pads. Echoes is out of the question. Damn echo effect is annoying, unless I want to do techno tracks.

I wonder what ZUN used for Kurodani's theme. The pads during the riffs are quite addicting... They sound like wind instruments, but I can't be sure. My ears weren't trained for music, haha~
:P

Atmosphere and Ice Rain are good for quiet, per-note padding, but I want something more impressive. The Goblins patch...I don't know what I should do with it. It's too quiet, but applying gain makes it sound grainy.  :yukkuri:

Sakuya is going to kill me for this post.

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Re: Bwahaha~
« Reply #269 on: September 25, 2011, 07:46:48 PM »
Ah, I see. So technically speaking, tracking and FM synthesis are two different steps. I don't like the prospect of hunting down soundchips in my country (I'll probably find used sound chips in Raon - a place in my country that's full of people and stuff that you don't expect to turn up there, but I hate crowds *shudders* ).  I'll probably stick with soft synths for now :smokedcheese:
For FM, softsynths are getting better for general use, particularly with newer work environments which use very few, if any, pieces of hardware and are all run from the DAW. I'd leave the actual hardware for enthusiasts and purists.
My preferred FM softsynth would have to be FM8, though I am also considering the hardware-based PLG150-DX which can be fit in some Yamaha synths.

Quote
Ah, so that's how it is. VGM uses four sine operators for FM synthesis, with the designated generators and modulators assigned for each algorithm. Going to mess with it for a while.
Oh, it's a 4-operator FM chip? Well...I know some of Yamaha's 4-op (and later 8-op) synths were able to work with different types of waves and not just sine. Does VGM have that option?

Quote
I gotta find some way to break this wall. I've been experimenting with the PSG channels, and I find the noise channel more suitable for snares instead of the Hoot Samples. I can't seem to make tones in PSG that doesn't sound "square"-ish, but I guess I can use it for the sixteenth note mayhem FM trackers usually do.
Some games made use of FM snares instead, maybe with noise channel to complement that.

What you're describing in the second bit is probably the very fast arpeggiated chord runs used very often in the 8 and 16-bit eras due to lack of channels.

Quote
I'm getting progress with FL, but I'm becoming more meticulous in mixing.....
Ah, basic style of mixing, I see.

Though I prefer modifying Expression instead of volume during songs (latter is suited for global purposes according to some Roland manual), velocity experimentation and Parametric EQs are good.

Quote
I still can't do the technique with pianos. When I mix them in a track, they become either too soft, or too overpowering. I can't seem to mix them in the "middle" of the track.
For that I'd try lowering the cutoff a little bit to muddy the crisp sound (takes out the latter), at least.

Quote
However, the main weakness I'm facing with thFont are pads....
This is one issue with many soundfonts and lower-end synthesizers - lack of proper sound balancing between the patches. This is one reason why Roland synthesizers in particular were so commonly used in the 1990s - the sounds were very well-balanced between synth-like and realistic, solo and ensemble, and between each other.

I say use the bits that the SF2 is strong at and for those that aren't, consult other synths/SF2s. This is what I do with my synths (eg. Yamaha one has weak drums, so I supplant those with those from my Roland SC-8850).

Quote
Sakuya is going to kill me for this post.
Not sure about that. :V
« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 07:49:34 PM by CHEN Guerilla Warmongers »
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_