Author Topic: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?  (Read 16370 times)

AndyPyro

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Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« on: November 19, 2017, 09:35:24 AM »
So as I was replaying HSiFS on steam since it came out (I was not prepared for this miracle.), I thought about a few things. 

How powerful is Okina?  She seems to be pretty cocky.  That, in my eyes, is either a sign of someone who is weaker than they actually say they are, or someone who can actually do some insane things.
She has shown to be pretty tough, as well.

Then there's Hecatia.  She is, according to some and even ZUN, the strongest touhou there is to date.
But honestly, she seems like a basic extra boss when you encounter her.
Perhaps she's just the type who doesn't like to show off her true strength, yeah?  Or any at all, for that matter.

So, as a result, I'd like to see the thoughts of others on this subject.

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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 09:54:44 AM »
Hecate's too chill to flaunt it. That's just gauche.

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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2017, 09:59:14 AM »
She pretty much tells you in her dialogue that she's just messing around with you. Danmaku doesn't mean all that much; it's more like a lower bound than an approximation of what they can pull off.

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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2017, 06:20:48 PM »
I think it's also good to remember that Hecatia's a Goddess of Hell, and Okina is more or less a 'Goddess of Gensokyo'.  Okina said herself that it's part of a God's duty to act almighty and flashy, so perhaps the fact we saw Heca acting so casual and friendly was because she wasn't even in her domain to begin with. 

Sure we can't guess how she'd act if she was encountered in Hell, especially since compared to Gensokyo it has a completely society and overviews, but I like thinking that could be a good indicator of why their attitude is so different.  Okina was more or less doing her job by making sure Gensokyo was doing well, and had to act all godlike in the process, Heca was having fun tagging along in her slighlty-crazy friend's dramatic revenge drama. 

AndyPyro

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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2017, 11:00:07 PM »
Yeah.  Those are pretty valid points.

I also feel like Hecatia is also a pretty underrated character to begin with as well.  Which is likely why I brought this subject up.

But oh well.  The more I think about it, the more I realize just how powerful Hecatia is.

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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2017, 12:41:53 AM »
ZUN had already said that Hecatia is more powerful than everyone from Gensokyo. That would presumably include Okina who doesn't yet exist in canon when that statement was made.
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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2017, 10:47:33 AM »
Yep, Hecatia's just a super chill person. Okina, much like Kanako, is a classic god who demands piety, faith, and worship, and to get that she puts out magnificent displays of godly miracles.

Hecatia is something completely different than the other gods we know. She already existed way before humanity, and was already chilling in her Hell. She's one of the leaders of Hell, but it's really just because she's too strong and they don't want to get in her bad side, and she's free to do whatever she wants. She's the landlady for the afterlife, basically.

Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 12:23:37 AM »
To elaborate, in AFiEU it was explained that in Hell they just call anyone who's extremely powerful a God or a Goddess. In other words, none of the rules and mechanics that apply to gods as we know them necessarily apply to Hecatia. She's something we've never seen before.

The most we know about Okina is that she played a big part in the creation Gensokyo. Which doesn't help much since Yukari and
Spoiler:
Kasen
did too, and both of their power, Yukari's especially, have been a huge subject of debate. Okina's only real feats are powering up fairies and creating youkai. That's not to say she's weak, just that we hardly have any information on her.

Spoiler:
By the way aren't discussions like this forbidden
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 12:29:15 AM by TresserT »
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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 04:42:17 AM »
This is less of a powerlevels argument and more talking about who these characters even are, really. No reason to push any brakes unless people actively start trying to argue like idiots about it.

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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 06:46:47 PM »
I'm not too familiar with Greek religion, but aren't Greek goods basically super powerful beings too?  Compared to the Touhou Gods we've seen so far, who subside in faith and worship, perhaps Hecatia's described herself as 'basically super powerful' a way to simplify that the greek pantheon works differently?

Sure people erect temples to all sorts of greek gods, but perhaps in the touhou-canon that is more out of respect than an actual necessity.

Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 09:22:50 PM »
Touhou already has a race of Gods like that. We know them as the Lunarians, who are based on the heavenly deities of Shintoism. Eirin is based on Omoikane, the god of wisdom, for example.
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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 10:51:56 PM »
It's hard to say for sure since Hecatia's the only western god we've seen (unless you want to count Shinki but lol Shinki). All we really know is that she's stronger than anyone in Gensokyo or the Lunar Capital. Whether Greek gods are stronger than Shinto gods is never really addressed or implied. We just know that Hecatia specifically is.
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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2017, 02:13:50 AM »
To answer the question of why Hecatia is so powerful, its because she is that way in Greek Myth too.

Hecate was one of the Titans, who existed before the Olympians, and IIRC, even Zeus respected her, as she fought against the other Titans. She was considered very important to the Greeks and was the god of Magic.

She's a pretty big deal.
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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2017, 02:27:16 AM »
Hecatia's power can be measured in two things;

- Her achievements according to Greek mythology, as the old guy said above. Aswell as that, there is also her associations; she is according to ancient.eu associated with death, witchcraft/magic and dark creatures to mention a few. She was also very prevalent in ancient greek culture, seeing how her depictions tended to pop up in nearly every corner of the many cities, from entrance ports to private homes. So if faith is the powerup juice of gods, Hecate/Hecatia had in her glory days a giant pool of it,

- Her taste in fashion is quite powerful and is able to leave any mortal man or woman weak for days.

Drake

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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2017, 05:16:09 AM »
To add to that, as I recently explained in some reddit thread, Hecatia is portrayed as being a top dog in Hell because traditionally she resides in the Underworld. The reason that she distinguishes between gods in AFiEU is because a "god" in the Touhou setting is typically referring to the Shinto concept of kami, which are defined by how they exist. Meanwhile Hecatia saying that she's called a god because she's really strong seems to be more of a statement on ZUN's part that his interpretation of Greek myth is that gods are gods because of their powers and not because they have some existential properties that make them that way. Whether or not that's super accurate to the actual mythology you can probably see what he's going for by making that divide.

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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2017, 11:22:20 AM »
Although considering how Shinto gods work in Touhou, there isn't anything stopping Hecatia from being both Greek and Shinto god.

Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2017, 06:30:53 PM »
Although considering how Shinto gods work in Touhou, there isn't anything stopping Hecatia from being both Greek and Shinto god.

I may be completely wrong here, but the whole Shinto Premise is that anything can become a Shinto God if it receives proper worship, right?  If that's the case, I can definitely see your point.  But then again, she probably doesn't seek worship like other Shinto gods.  Knowing that hell has a meritocracy system, she probably thinks that actions speak louder than words (or prayer, in this case).

AndyPyro

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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2017, 08:43:55 AM »
To elaborate, in AFiEU it was explained that in Hell they just call anyone who's extremely powerful a God or a Goddess. In other words, none of the rules and mechanics that apply to gods as we know them necessarily apply to Hecatia. She's something we've never seen before.

The most we know about Okina is that she played a big part in the creation Gensokyo. Which doesn't help much since Yukari and
Spoiler:
Kasen
did too, and both of their power, Yukari's especially, have been a huge subject of debate. Okina's only real feats are powering up fairies and creating youkai. That's not to say she's weak, just that we hardly have any information on her.

Spoiler:
By the way aren't discussions like this forbidden

This is less of a powerlevels argument and more talking about who these characters even are, really. No reason to push any brakes unless people actively start trying to argue like idiots about it.

Exactly.  I don't mean to start any arguments about power levels and such.  I just wanted to hear thoughts and mix them in with the facts that were already given to us.

Looking at it now, I do feel like the question I brought up is a little silly and very self explanatory if I read in between the lines a little better.

Still, though!  I do enjoy seeing what others have to say about these two.

Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2017, 01:24:55 PM »
Well, if I have to compare though, Hecatia is like that one OP hidden boss character who just roam the world freely (and bringin misery to the protag), she probably doesn't have an motive for what she does most of a time, but she still scare people to death with just her display, given the right spot. Okina, meanwhile, is the mafia boss, the top dontress of dons, who run thing in the shadow while thing in the above world relied on her influence to further their position, which inturn cement and raise her power and influence over the dog-eat-dog god world she inhabit, she's the type that definitively have a plan in mind for thing she does, like Yukari. But added that to her mafia-like disposition, mean that she done so many thing, and plan many more in the shadow, she won't even count it to you guy.

The reason I compare them differently also is that, essentially, they are different type of person, right down to the type of boss they're. Comparison about their power, in turn, is nearly meaningless, as they're strong in different way, and even exhibit different battlefield most of the time. But I could said they're both top bitches in the world they live.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 01:27:21 PM by andykhang »

Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 12:12:57 AM »
From the print works (the manga, etc.  Mostly Wild and Horned Hermit, IIRC)

Hecatia is one of the highest levels of power in hell.  Even Shikieiki remarks that she was one of its top authorities, and Hecatia's mentioned at various occasions that even if other denizons of hell might wish to cause disaster, they wouldn't dare do it while she was around.  We don't know how she compares to Okina, but it is very clear that her power is supposed to be freakishly crazy.  I guess most people, me included, have trouble wrapping our heads around that three bodies thing as any more than just a gimmick, but I think when ZUN said she was the most powerful, he figured that had to be the case if she was going to be a goddess of three friggin' worlds at once.    Sure, Lunarians are powerful, but Hecatia's a goddess of the moon.  And earth.  And Otherworlds.  So.... yea.

Ignoring Okina's relative power to Hecatia, it's important to note that ZUN intends for Okina to be thought of as insanely powerful too.  Blatantly spelled out in her Wild and Horned Hermit chapter where it's revealed her sheer power alone was enough to make Komaru COME TO LIFE as a SIDE EFFECT, something that leaves even Reimu speechless in awe.  I'm not sure Reimu's ever been portrayed as being completely utterly speechless at someone's power before.  Even when dealing with Lunarians and Yukari, Reimu's always so rebellious and stubborn and "Whatever.  I'll just exterminate you.".  Heck, she was even that way with Okina throughout most of the chapter constantly telling Okina that if she caused any trouble, she was just going to have to beat her again, until that big reveal at the end,  where for the first time in the series (I think?) Reimu seems to consider herself out of her league.

(that's not proof that Okina is necessarily more powerful than Yukari or anyone else by the way.  Again, Reimu was just as pompous and prideful towards Okina as she was towards everyone else until she got a glimpse of just how far Okina's true power went, so there's always the chance that others simply haven't shown Reimu their true power either.  It's just that, as this is the first time ZUN actually had such power be glimpsed, Okina is clearly meant to be seen as insanely powerful)

So.... yea.  They're definitely meant to be seen as ridiculously powerful, even by the standards of the series.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 12:17:28 AM by Tiamat »

Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 03:49:22 AM »
Hecatia is basically a Disgaea character, imo. She's an "Overlord" of Hell in that she's so strong that no one dares mess with her. In a certain sense, that's just a natural consequence of a strength-based hierarchy like she implies Hell is: someone is going to rise to the top. That person happened to be Hecatia. She's powerful enough that she doesn't need to prove anything to anyone. What she's earned through strength is simply the absolute freedom to do whatever she wants.

I don't think Okina is comparable. She's flashy, and her control over maryoku and seishin allow her to do some surprisingly delicate things, but she's trying to be flashy. She's doing all this specifically with the goal of impressing people. So in that sense she's more like a stage magician, directing your attention to the flashy bits so you can't see how much effort she's putting in behind the scenes. For that reason, I'd imagine that the events of HSiFS are about her limits. If she could have done something even flashier, she would have.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 03:57:46 AM by Clarste »

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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 07:36:55 AM »
[...] Even Shiki Eiki remarks that [...]
Are we past that era of that mistake yet? /off-topic

/on-topic
I agree with Tiamat. Hecatia is in another league altogether. However, Okina has clearly shown in WaHH that she's in another league too but maybe not at Hecatia level though. Okina wanted to be flashy, maybe, but she wanted to show off while messing with you; to the point, like Tiamat said, she made Reimu reconsider.

Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 09:03:07 AM »
Okina's connection is sure to be more crazy than Hecatia though, that's for sure. When it come to finding something, I think Okina, with her numerous connection, would have a much easier than Hecatia doing it on her threesome (yes, I'm coining that term :) )

Again, Okina is a Yukari type, but more of a "crime syndicate" sense than Yukari "Overlord Mastermind" thing. She got more way to fight than just direct combat.

Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2017, 09:23:53 AM »
For that reason, I'd imagine that the events of HSiFS are about her limits. If she could have done something even flashier, she would have.

I can totally see your point, but there's also part of me that wonders if that was truly the case!  Okina is, after all, one of Gensokyo's creators and she seems to care about making sure Gensokyo's working properly.

What if Okina -could- do something flashier, but it'd end up threatening Gensokyo's balance?  If her words are true, she definitely could do something way flashier/crazier like, I dunno, creating infinitely infinite new youkai or something of the sorts; but that'd clearly throw their world in discord.

I agree that if she could have done something flashier, she would have, but what if HSiFS was the flashiest-yet-safest she could aim for?  There could be some hidden power she's been keeping unused, because maybe if she went for something flashier, there could be bigger consequences than just fairies getting more powerful and the seasons getting temporarily wonky. 

Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2017, 09:41:02 AM »
It's also implied that Okina was lying about showing off and had some sort of ulterior motive. So she wouldn't necessarily show everything in her HSiFS fight. I do agree that Hecatia is probably in a whole different league, though.

Speaking of Hecatia, I don't think her ability is supposed to have anything to do with her overall power. Suwako is a god who creates earth, but her real power is her control over the curse gods. Yuuka is considered an extremely powerful youkai, but her ability is not a huge part of that. Several characters have purely symbolic abilities, like Yuugi and Remilia, but are considered extremely powerful because of their "non-ability" characteristics. I think Hecatia is simply powerful because she is, and that has nothing to do with her ability.

To put it another way, a character's "official ability" doesn't necessarily reflect the entire range of their abilities. Hecatia can probably do a lot more than just be in three places at once. It's just that that is her most distinctive trait.
My name is Tres. It sounds like "Tray". Tressert is "Tray-zurt"; like Tres dessert.
I've cleared every touhou game on Lunatic, and beaten every extra except SoEW.
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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2017, 02:06:53 PM »
Pretty much ^

The character's ability is simply their most unique, distinctive ability, not the only ability. If they actually have that ability in the first place and not just making stuff up (like possibly Remilia, Kanako, and Suwako).

Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2017, 09:19:35 PM »
Pretty much? ^

It's kind of funny when we come to think that Reimu and Marisa, who end up beating just about everyone, have in their profiles abilities that literally apply to just about everyone else in gensokyo (Flying and Using Magic). 

It also in the end applies to Okina, since nowhere in her own profile it mentions her being able to create youkai, or enhance vitality and mentality.  I think ZUN also does it not to clutter the character's profiles, since admittedly some characters' 'full' ability profile would probably end up being quite an extensive wall of text. 

Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2017, 03:17:29 AM »
Well, technically only magicians use magic (魔法 mahou), and every single magician's profile says "uses magic". Everyone else uses supernatural abilities that aren't magic, often described as youjutsu (妖術) or hijutsu (秘術).

Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2017, 09:50:07 AM »
Well, technically only magicians use magic (魔法 mahou), and every single magician's profile says "uses magic". Everyone else uses supernatural abilities that aren't magic, often described as youjutsu (妖術) or hijutsu (秘術).

Whooa, that's cool!  I had no idea about that!

I always considered everyone's danmaku and overall abilities as magic, but it's interesting to see there's such a difference in terms in japanese.  Whenever I heard of, say, a Hermit's Arts, a God's Abilities or even Sumireko's Psychic powers; I just bundled everything plainly as magic.

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Re: Yeah, we have Okina, but what about Hecatia?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2017, 10:39:33 AM »
Incidentally, hermit arts are senjutsu (仙術).

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