Author Topic: ZUN-style MIDI  (Read 28574 times)

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ZUN-style MIDI
« on: March 04, 2011, 02:26:09 AM »
Dunno if this is the right place to post this or not, but I've been looking for a MIDI program or something with which I can create songs with the same kind of instruments ZUN uses. I've been DYING to remix several videogame themes to sound ZUN-style. Or at least try to.  :V
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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2011, 02:32:30 AM »
Cubase Pro, Edirol SD-90 and a big collection of plugins totaling over 2000 bucks. You HAVE to buy Cubase and the plugins, the SD-90 alone is useless for anything besides impressing semi-deaf kids on YouTube and Tumblr!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:44:27 PM by Romantique Tp »

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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2011, 04:04:22 AM »
Ouch. There go my scarce car funds...
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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2011, 12:07:00 PM »
I Guess you have to stick with Mario Paint composer for now  :V
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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2011, 10:39:43 PM »
I have several recommendations below in regards to instruments and software. It might be a little technical (as a composer I am a MIDI enthusiast), but on the bright side it'll likely sound much better than resorting to Mario Paint Composer.  :D

Instruments:
I noticed that the Edirol Hyper Canvas provides some of the sounds in ZUN works (eg. the power kit in Sakuya's EoSD theme) and offers plenty of options to tweak the instruments (ZUN trumpets are simple to make with a few MIDI parameter changes). Catch is that it only has 256 instruments and 9 drumsets (enough to cover the GM2 standard), but a far cry from the SD-90's 1050 instruments and 30 drumsets (which also supports GS and XGLite).

It is discontinued, however, and finding it may be difficult (nor can I help with this). Also I have no idea how well it runs on Vista and 7, for I use it with other MIDI VSTis (Edirol VSC-MP1, Yamaha S-YXG50, and a converted S-YXG2006LE) in an XP virtual machine.

Another hardware option is the Roland SD-50, which has a few more instruments and can be run off USB. It is quite expensive ($400), but due to its recent release most current audio software on Windows and Mac will support it.
EDIT: Also note Bigode's post below on the SD-50 and SD-90's sounds.

As for guitars, I use a couple guitar soundfonts or Logic software instruments, depending on the style of mix I am trying to do.

DAW Software:
I use them in conjunction with OpenMPT, but tweak the MIDIs a bit in Anvil Studio and Synthfont (OpenMPT's MIDI handling is quite terrible). Mixing the audio tracks as well as remixing of the MIDIs are done in Logic Pro.

ZUN used Cubase SX according to the BAiJR interview. Then again, this was back in 2005 so he probably upgraded between then and now.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 12:51:08 AM by iPad Kernel Panic...? »
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2011, 12:20:52 AM »
The samples used in Hyper Canvas are actually mostly the same as the ones in SD-90's "Classic set" (by classic they mean "sounds like an old sound canvas"). The thing is, ZUN never uses that sound set, so overall the Hyper Canvas isn't very good for making ZUN-style music. :V

BTW the SD-50 sounds nothing like a SD-90.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:34:58 PM by Romantique Tp »

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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2011, 12:49:23 AM »
The samples used in Hyper Canvas are actually mostly the same as the ones in SD-90's "Classic set" (by classic they mean "sounds midi-ish like an  old sound canvas") with a few SC88 Pro samples thrown in. The thing is, ZUN never uses that sound set, so overall the Hyper Canvas isn't very good for making ZUN-style music. :V

Hm, that's interesting. To me they were a better fit than the samples in the VSC-MP1 (which sounds very MIDI-like in comparison due to its SC-55, SC-88, and SC-88Pro soundtables). For a fully software-based implementation, though, it isn't half-bad IMO.
I'm also investigating a few more commonly used Edirol VSTis (HQ Orchestral and Super Quartet) ATM, but I expect them to have less in common with the SD-90.

BTW the SD-50 sounds nothing like a SD-90.

Thanks for the note on the SD-50. I came very close to buying it for more MIDI fun with Logic, but if it sounds nothing like the SD-90 as you said then I'll pass and use that money towards either a PSR-series keyboard or new Mac.

I guess I have to catch up a lot on Roland MIDI implementations (mostly a Yamaha user here)! :V
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2011, 01:02:21 AM »
I'm also investigating a few more commonly used Edirol VSTis (HQ Orchestral and Super Quartet) ATM, but I expect them to have less in common with the SD-90.

Super Quartet is one of the VSTs ZUN uses, and I think it does have 1 or 2 SD-90 samples, namely the Jazz and Rock basses. HQ Orchestral doesn't seem to have many relevant SD-90 samples though.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:36:00 PM by Romantique Tp »

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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2011, 10:06:26 PM »
...I hate my lack of understanding for this technical stuff.

Trying, and failing, to completely understand this makes flying to Japan and ask ZUN for a copy of his software seems easier.  :V

I do appreciate the help though and I'll try my best to put this together.
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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2011, 02:45:12 PM »
If you're mainly looking for a MIDI sequencer program, you could always try various software/music instrument stores. Some music keyboards even come with such software. Years ago, I got a few MIDI programs in the $30-50 range from such stores. I'm not sure if that kind of software is still available nowadays, but it's a start.

Now, if you're looking to use ZUN instruments to achieve "his sound", then you're better off purchasing those high-dollar programs already mentioned. However, they're much more complex than your average 16 track MIDI.

Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2011, 01:23:24 AM »
Yeah ... for one thing, the SD-90 is hardware, not software. (It's primarily meant for electronic keyboards, but has a USB plug just in case)

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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2011, 03:19:45 AM »
If you're mainly looking for a MIDI sequencer program, you could always try various software/music instrument stores. Some music keyboards even come with such software. Years ago, I got a few MIDI programs in the $30-50 range from such stores. I'm not sure if that kind of software is still available nowadays, but it's a start.

Not sure of any stand-alone MIDI-based software in that price range (other than Anvil Studio, but that's something else). In regards to keyboard-software bundles, I know that the M-Audio Keyrig 49 (cheap entry-level keyboard controller) comes with Ableton Live Lite (there is another version with Pro Tools Essentials, though it is not as common).
Other entry-level / prosumer-level sequencing software near that range include Cubase Essentials 5 (US$150), Acoustica Mixcraft (US$75), Logic Express 9 (US$160 on B&H - Mac only), and Cakewalk Sonar X1 Essential (US$95.89 on B&H).

Yeah ... for one thing, the SD-90 is hardware, not software. (It's primarily meant for electronic keyboards, but has a USB plug just in case)

The "SD-90 is hardware" note has been already mentioned in the second post. The software bits were just thrown in as possible substitutes for the real deal.
Though it is good to know that the SD-90 has a USB plug...and Mac OS 10.6 support! :D Might buy one second-hand for use with Logic...provided I can find one and if the price is sufficient.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 05:47:34 PM by iPad Kernel Panic...? »
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2011, 03:57:57 AM »
Not sure of any stand-alone MIDI-based software in that price range (other than Anvil Studio, but that's something else). In regards to keyboard-software bundles, I know that the M-Audio Keyrig 49 (cheap entry-level keyboard controller) comes with Ableton Live Lite (there is another version with Pro Tools Essentials, though it is not as common).
Other entry-level sequencing software near that range include Cubase Essentials 5 (US$150), Logic Express 9 (US$160 on B&H - Mac only), and Cakewalk Sonar X1 Essential (US$95.89 on B&H).
Sure. I'm talking over 10 years ago, when Midi software and instruments were more standard. Programs like Cakewalk were more available and relatively easy to use.

Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2011, 07:51:30 AM »
The "SD-90 is hardware" note has been already mentioned in the second post. The software bits were just thrown in as possible substitutes for the real deal.
Though it is good to know that the SD-90 has a USB plug...and Mac OS 10.6 support! :D Might buy one second-hand for use with Logic...provided I can find one and if the price is sufficient.
Whups, I am a derp.

Anyway, there's two on a "Buy It Now"-only basis on eBay, one for $485 and one for $535, both for $54 shipping. I'm slowly but steadily saving up ...

Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2011, 01:24:57 PM »
...I hate my lack of understanding for this technical stuff.

Trying, and failing, to completely understand this makes flying to Japan and ask ZUN for a copy of his software seems easier.  :V

I do appreciate the help though and I'll try my best to put this together.

I once played with original touhou midis and tried to make something myself without any musical knowledge lol  :V
What i used was anvil studio (free unless you want some pointless additional stuff)

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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2011, 05:46:49 PM »
I once played with original touhou midis and tried to make something myself without any musical knowledge lol  :V
What i used was anvil studio (free unless you want some pointless additional stuff)

Ahh, Anvil Studio...I have been using that program for at least 4-5 years now with the Pro-Mix and MIDI Manager accessories (though I have to get new codes for them amid the program's latest update).
It's a decent program for tweaking MIDIs (parameters, instrument settings, basic melodies, fixing the crap that OpenMPT's MIDI export functions spit out), but for serious work it's quite ineffective without sticking extra money for the extras, such as $20 for viewing multiple tracks simultaneously. Plus the interface reminds me of Windows 3.1, which IMO was a PITA to deal with.
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2011, 08:39:53 PM »
I once played with original touhou midis and tried to make something myself without any musical knowledge lol  :V
What i used was anvil studio (free unless you want some pointless additional stuff)

Hnnn, I might try this. Hopefully I won't ragequit when I don't get anything.  :V

Ahh, Anvil Studio...I have been using that program for at least 4-5 years now with the Pro-Mix and MIDI Manager accessories (though I have to get new codes for them amid the program's latest update).
It's a decent program for tweaking MIDIs (parameters, instrument settings, basic melodies, fixing the crap that OpenMPT's MIDI export functions spit out), but for serious work it's quite ineffective without sticking extra money for the extras, such as $20 for viewing multiple tracks simultaneously.


I'm not really doing anything serious, just messing around and having fun. It's good to know, though. I hate it when you gotta pay for extra features.  ._.
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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2011, 08:46:47 PM »
ding
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:36:39 PM by Romantique Tp »

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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2011, 06:30:34 PM »
Also semi-related to thread.

While searching for a Megadrive soundfont, I came across THFont (link in this ancient thread.)

It doesn't feel like actual ZUN stuff (while some of the samples are good, there is a noticeable lack of reverb but that can be worked around), but it works as a cheap imitation. I don't know if it'll work with Anvil Studio though without any optional addons.

I would still prefer the Hyper Canvas over this (full MIDI control), and (of course) hardware synths such as the SD-90 over that.
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2011, 11:57:33 AM »
I hope a week and a half doesn't count as thread necromancy, but I recently stumbled upon a breakthrough for those wanting to make ZUN-style music.

The Roland TTS-1 is largely based on the Edirol Hyper Canvas with several improvements, but unlike the Hyper Canvas, it's not discontinued: it's packed with all of Cakewalk's music-making products. As an owner of Sonar 7 Producer Edition, I've experimented with the TTS-1 on a couple of the original midis to find it either nearly matching, matching, or outperforming the original tracks... That is, until I ran into the corrupted midi for "Reach For The Moon, Immortal Smoke", in which I had to rebuild a great bulk of it from parts I could salvage. In the end, I managed to make a near-perfect remake of the original song using the TTS-1 alone (with a few mastering plug-ins to clean it up). Listen to my results here.

Edit: Uploaded a better version. Equalized the sound, upped the volume, increased the dynamic range, and tweaked the trumpets.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 05:48:04 PM by Spaztique »
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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2011, 04:44:41 PM »
That's quite accurate I must say. Much better than my experimentations with the Hyper Canvas.
Almost contemplating getting Bought a copy of Sonar X1 Essential just for this and for an easier work interface while on XP for my MIDI stuff.

However, from what I've searched it seems like it's a DXi and is consequently Windows-only. I guess I'll still have to buy hardware to get my MIDI workload over to Logic....
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 11:15:11 PM by Bad Apple Store »
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2011, 05:17:37 PM »
Wow, it's really accurate!

You could've toned down those drums a bit, though. Otherwise, it's really good.
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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2011, 05:52:25 PM »
Indeed this is accurate. I'd say the only thing that DOESN'T sound like the original is the drums. The rest is just perfect.
In fact the drumset used doesn't even sound like anything ZUN has been using...

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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2011, 06:00:15 PM »
Indeed this is accurate. I'd say the only thing that DOESN'T sound like the original is the drums. The rest is just perfect.
In fact the drumset used doesn't even sound like anything ZUN has been using...

Funny you say that: since the TTS-1 is a relative to the Hyper Canvas, it shares the exact same drumset used for "Luna Dial". Should I make that my next experiment?

Also, thanks for the feedback, everyone.
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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2011, 07:03:11 PM »
Funny you say that: since the TTS-1 is a relative to the Hyper Canvas, it shares the exact same drumset used for "Luna Dial". Should I make that my next experiment?

Also, thanks for the feedback, everyone.
Luna Dial is already scarily accurate to the original with the Hyper Canvas, even if I'm using the GM1 instruments alone.

It's also funny how the original ZUN MIDIs for EoSD have a comment on them being for 88P (SC-88Pro). Also, there seems to be several missing bits in the original MIDIs.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 07:13:10 PM by Bad Apple Store »
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2011, 07:28:08 PM »
All of ZUN's MIDIs are meant to be played on a SC-88 Pro, only exceptions being the MIDI versions of the songs in SoEW and 3 files from his old music page.

And ZUN doesn't use SD-90 drums since Alice's theme in PCB.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 07:29:47 PM by Not Bigode »

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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2011, 07:51:52 PM »
All of ZUN's MIDIs are meant to be played on a SC-88 Pro using the 88MAP, only exceptions being the MIDI versions of the songs in SoEW and 3 files from his old music page.

And ZUN doesn't use SD-90 drums since Alice's theme in PCB.
IIRC the SoEW MIDIs were designed for the SC-55 or a GUS-compatible synth, right? (That's what the info on Hoot indicates....)

The use of the 88MAP with an SC-88Pro makes sense, judging from the instrument selections that the VSC-MP1 panel indicates while playing them (use of GS patches, SC88 drumsets, and parameter changes).

As for the drum sets, I take it he's using the Cubase sets instead, with their use (along with other instruments) becoming more common with later songs.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 08:08:27 PM by Bad Apple Store »
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_

Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2011, 08:43:41 PM »
IIRC the SoEW MIDIs were designed for the SC-55 or a GUS-compatible synth, right? (That's what the info on Hoot indicates....)

They are meant to be played on a SC-88, but there's no real difference between using the real thing and SC-88 Pro's 88MAP I guess.
GUS soundcards don't work on the PC-98.

Quote
As for the drum sets, I take it he's using the Cubase sets instead, with their use (along with other instruments) becoming more common with later songs.
Nobody knows for sure, but someone suggested that ZUN may be using either Steinberg LM-4 drums or drums from an early version of HALion One.

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Re: ZUN-style MIDI
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2011, 09:41:11 PM »
They are meant to be played on a SC-88, but there's no real difference between using the real thing and SC-88 Pro's 88MAP I guess.
GUS soundcards don't work on the PC-98.
Unless he was using SC-88Pro-exclusive patches there isn't much of a difference...at least in the VSC-MP1's implementation of both (and the SC-55).
As for the GUS soundcard note, that's not terribly surprising, given that GUS and waveform-based work on PCs had greater popularity in America and Europe while Japanese sound companies focused on supplying FM chips and creating MIDI standards.
C:DOS> ayayaya.mid
Bad command or file name

C:>_