Maidens of the Kaleidoscope
~Beyond the Border~ => Akyu's Arcade => Genji's Battle Arena => Topic started by: Dormio Ergo Sum on April 19, 2011, 01:33:09 PM
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Since StarCraft needs a thread, and it should obviously be created by a Korean. :V
Let us discuss StarCraft melee here.
The miscellaneous info, general strategy, interesting games you've had and the like.
How many of you guys are playing/interested in MotK SC anyway?
I may go looking for my SC and BW cds for some random inhouse games if enough people are playing.
SC2 lagging due to low specs gets annoying at times.
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If I can bother to set up my 1.16.1.1 SCBW to MotK battle.net I may play some games.
Hopefully with Teamspeak action.
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This video is no longer available because the YouTube account associated with this video has been terminated due to multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement from claimants, including:
KBSi
KBSi
Sorry about that.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Gddmt.
And this was the most epic game too.
aserawefadsg
Never mind, I found another link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUhrE6b0aPc
This game. Holy shit the ending is intense.
And Trance, we should totally play sometime and yell at each other in TS as we do so.
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I'm better than all of you :smug:
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I'm better than all of you :smug:
But I'm Korean. :smug:
And what's a SC thread without Boxer's ㅈㅈ러쉬 (SCV rush) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jen46qkZVNI)?
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But I'm Korean. :smug:
you also got owned by your dad, what's your point :getdown:
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I'd be happy to play some games (been looking forward to it, actually)! I play Zerg mostly.
I'm pretty terrible but hopefully playing a bunch will fix that :V
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Not another buggie player :( ZvZ is so booooooooooring. That's what, 3 Zergs now?
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Well, I can play Terran instead, I'm just even worse at it :V
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Oh I can play Terran too, I just prefer Zerg's playstyle. Only race I can't play is Protoss because I really really really suck at unit preservation. I am absolutely terrible at it in DoW2.
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you also got owned by your dad, what's your point :getdown:
But he's also Korean.
Am I the only protoss player here?
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I play protoss because I'm azn :V
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hai5 Pescar.
And, huh.
I found Brood War, but not the original.
I guess I'll probably look for it tomorrow or later today if I manage to finish this assignment early (pfft).
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yuck protoss
Sorry TeeSoo but also main Zerg! Though I can play T too if I have to. :V
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In order of skill and preference:
P > T > Z
Though I'm probably not at competitive levels yet.
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I'll just focus terran for the sake of variety since I'm not actually good with either!
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I somehow beat Trance and Manstuff as Zerg. \o/
Then again Stuffman knew about as much about playing protoss as I did zerg, and Trance was taken down early through bad luck. :V
What are viable builds for Zerg, anyway?
Since I assume spamming only zerglings and guardians is not the greatest idea for every match.
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http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Strategy_(Zerg) Have fun
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Mutaling opening before transitioning to higher tier units for ZvZ? Depends a lot on what your opponent is building really. It's been ages since I played SC/BW but that strat still remains in SC2 ZvZ except with banelings mixed in. ZvP/ZvT, you're probably better off going for hydras after the early ling harass. Since I used to play Protoss, I frequently saw ultra/hydras late game if it got to that.
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ZvZ is purely mutaling. Basically the timings only differ by how big your balls are and your confidence in holding off a ling all in before spire.
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ZvZ never goes too far into the game. Rarely have I seen ZvZ hive play. If by chance though, ZvZ hive play comes, ready for Defiler and
PLAYGU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpuv7VPb2rA) Plague on your Muta stack.
I once played Toss before for like 2 years then switched to Terran just because. I'm still quite proficient at Toss play though.
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ZvZ never goes too far into the game. Rarely have I seen ZvZ hive play.
you haven't?
Well okay maybe in normal games... but ZvZ is fucking boring
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toss user here. want to switch to terran because op. anyways, we need to play moar bw.
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you haven't?
Well okay maybe in normal games... but ZvZ is fucking boring
At least it's quick unlike fucking TvT :|
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At least it's quick unlike fucking TvT :|
Sieging and unsieging tanks is pretty fun though.
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At least it's quick unlike fucking TvT :|
PvP is basically who can 4gate better. But there is a solution to TvT.. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLxybR9V6T0) :V
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Terran has the ultimate defense, just build bunkers with ghosts and missile turrents then place siege tanks behind them. You can add goliaths and wraiths just in case
When playing Zerg, just attack with lots and lots of zerglings. It's somehow very effective.
And plague enemy buildings with defilers
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When playing Zerg, just attack with lots and lots of zerglings. It's somehow very effective
Zerglings get raped by fbats, storm, and a whole lot of other things.
It's advisable to check the BO of the opponent first before deciding whether to go a Zergling build.
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Well, you want cracklings to be the bulk of your army in the end game, their DPS is just astounding. The trick though is knowing which specialist units to mix in, such as ultras or mutas or hydras or even defilers.
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For ZvT it's usually defilers. T will counter with vessels, but Plague will suffice to counter it.
ZvZ, again, rarely do ZvZ go hive play, so not much. ZvZ is mutaling, so Plague can again be good with enemy Muta stacks.
ZvP it's Ultraling. Defilers won't do jackshit because of the Archons and the Zealots dealing splash and melee damage, respectively. Also, Maelstrom is a good counter for Ultraling.
Basically, Cracklings should be roughly a third of your army. Whether it is Ultraling or Mutaling, they do insane DPS and distract the enemy. They also mostly take the bulk of the damage.
Lol why do I know this I'm not even Zerg.
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I dunno ZvP there's successful builds based on Hydraling. Hydras do great damage vs Zealots/Archons and aren't as susceptible to storm/archon abuse if you're decent at kiting/splitting. Only real weakness is good Shuttle/reaver control but that's why you have Scourges to scare them off :b. Lurkers are always a threat despite Protoss probably being the best equipped to handle it (observer and targettable AoEs like Storm and the Archon splash trick).
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I dont know if this happens for anyone else but every time I start SC up the motk server keeps getting removed and I have to re-add it in the bnet getway editor. Anyone else having this problem?
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Trance, Panda, rizock, and I all have that issue too.
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bnet editor does same to me.
ZvP rarely goes to ultra. Either Z have a hard enough time surviving to ultra or just completely contains P. Late game, find Z is more effective when they just go crackling and eat my cannons/expos/bases-everywhere where my P army is not. Oh and doom drops. Early game, I've always had trouble vs 5 hatch hydra bust. Sometimes can be hard to spot, and can transition to lurker easily to keep P even more contained. But if I get my third up, it is all fun and games with my death ball of archon/storm/speedlot kekeke.
Oh and need moar 1v1s. Ima terrible at this team melee thing.
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I dont know if this happens for anyone else but every time I start SC up the motk server keeps getting removed and I have to re-add it in the bnet getway editor. Anyone else having this problem?
There's a trick to make the registry entry read-only but I forget how.
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Since StarCraft needs a thread, and it should obviously be created by a Korean. :V
Fake Korean, you suck at StarCraft therefore you are not Korean.
OR MUST I REMIND YOU OF HOW YOUR DAD REPEATEDLY PWNED YOU?
But I'm Korean. :smug:
MORE LIES.
Anyway how many Terrans do we have here? qq I feel like the only one sometimes.
Terran has the ultimate defense, just build bunkers with ghosts and missile turrents then place siege tanks behind them. You can add goliaths and wraiths just in case
When playing Zerg, just attack with lots and lots of zerglings. It's somehow very effective.
And plague enemy buildings with defilers
Bunkers with ghosts... Why would you put ghosts into bunkers exactly? Sure they have longer range than marines or firebats, but they attack slow, do concussive damage and they don't have stimpack. Plus they do concussive damage that doesn't splash and are very gas and tech intensive.
I'm not going to talk strategy since I don't really play SC nearly as much as I used to so what do I know.
Especially after my tank rush failed against Panda, rizock and Stuffman hurr. I blame Dormio for it mostly, and the RNG for making me start next to my enemies instead of my allies (Dormio and Trance) qq.
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Anyway how many Terrans do we have here? qq I feel like the only one sometimes.
(Raises hand) I'm a Terran..
And lol, bunkers with ghosts. Concussive damage is baaaaaaad. Sure, it's good for light units but then if you have ghosts, surely, the enemy already has an army of medium and heavy units. Concussive's only good for shields, and even then, they do crap damage.
And you rushed with tanks only? Surely you should have put some vultures and mines in there? Vultures are cheap, and their mine upgrade's cheap too, so why not put in some mines to slow down the enemy's advance. Slowing down the enemy also gives the tanks more time to shoot at shit.
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how do you all seem to know what type of dmg units do. I just play... but yea, ghosts are lol.
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how do you all seem to know what type of dmg units do. I just play... but yea, ghosts are lol.
Visit the TeamLiquid forums and wiki. You'll know everything about Starcraft there.
What race do you play?
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Interesting, might want to check it out.
Play P. Want to learn T someday. Tired of all this 3/3 mech emplololol end game. mid game is fine though. zealot bomb goooo!
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Try reaver/shuttle micro coupled with Zealot/Dragoon.
Or, Storm.
vs T, I would suggest archons, but the abundance of Vultures midgame will not go towards your favor. As always, Zealots take all the Vulture fire while Goons snipe the tanks. Bring observers since Vulture = Mine.
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(Raises hand) I'm a Terran..
And lol, bunkers with ghosts. Concussive damage is baaaaaaad. Sure, it's good for light units but then if you have ghosts, surely, the enemy already has an army of medium and heavy units. Concussive's only good for shields, and even then, they do crap damage.
And you rushed with tanks only? Surely you should have put some vultures and mines in there? Vultures are cheap, and their mine upgrade's cheap too, so why not put in some mines to slow down the enemy's advance. Slowing down the enemy also gives the tanks more time to shoot at shit.
Well I was going to get them but if I didn't do something quick Dormio and Trance would've died. Of course, I failed in the end so they died anyway. Either way too many hydras and Zealots and dragoons qq so all I had was some marines in bunkers and a few tanks.
Also yay another T around.
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Obligatory video of Idra playing as Terran. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpmnIr_787w)
Yes, it's that video.
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I have a good solution, why not go MnM with Tanks for support? That's what I usually do on 3v3 matchups. It's safe (somewhat), it's a good early game build and it easily transitions into mech.
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I have a good solution, why not go MnM with Tanks for support? That's what I usually do on 3v3 matchups. It's safe (somewhat), it's a good early game build and it easily transitions into mech.
Was doing that initially but in the end I got overrun while blowing stuff up derp.
I should totally SCV rush people to hell.
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Lol 1 SCV for each base.
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Well, I'm using ghosts because they cost less minerals to train so it's good in late game.
In early game I used 2 firebats and 2 marines in bunkers.
So in mid game I attack with all the marines and firebats I have in my bunkers and replaces them with ghosts.
And the mine tip is pretty useful, thanks.
I rarely play Terran, only in Campaigns and sometimes for practice. I usually go for Zerg and Protoss 'cause of the lol zerglings and zealots + carriers
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But they also cost 75 gas and take around twice as long to build.
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Erm, minerals should NEVER be a problem, ever. Gas will always be your limiting resource, and you should use gas on whatever the most valuable tech unit is at the time. Tanks, Goliaths, SVs, Medics and Firebats are all far more valuable uses of your gas than Ghosts. There's pretty much zero competitive reason to have a Ghost unless you're fearing mass BC and you can't get enough Wraiths in time. Basically you have little to no starports and you scouted the switch too late, it'd be a lot quicker to just get a covert ops and spam out of your barracks and lockdown would buy you time to get real AA in the area (Goliaths/Wraiths/etc).
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gaiz
i need help
how to counter infestors thnx
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As Terran? Ghosts. EMP + Snipe will rape them. As Protoss? Just feedback them and lol (if you're not playing PvZ with HTs you're a moron). As Zerg? L2P nub :smug:
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great
my ghosts all died from fungal growth without each one getting hit by the emp's
fucking great.
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You're supposed to cloak + snipe. You should easily be able to get a few snipes in and they're gone. EMP is more of a panic move if you see them right about to do it and you can't snipe enough.
Detection is a serious problem for Zerg now that you don't get it for free with just Overlords, and just a few snipes will kill an Overseer very fast.
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As T, 2-3 siege tanks will usually fix any infestor problems. They die in like 2 hits. I almost always have a couple tanks/1-2 thors with my bio anyways. Tanks just murder banelings, and my bioball cleans up whatever is left.
As P, you shouldn't have any problems with infestors... lolcollosus/pheonix/Forcefields
As Z, well, you should have infestors of your own. Just try to stay ahead in roach upgrades. If you went mutas, once infestors are out, transition into roach again quick.
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You're supposed to cloak + snipe. You should easily be able to get a few snipes in and they're gone. EMP is more of a panic move if you see them right about to do it and you can't snipe enough.
Detection is a serious problem for Zerg now that you don't get it for free with just Overlords, and just a few snipes will kill an Overseer very fast.
Problem is, the zerg that I'm playing with seems to have implemented Seers in his build. He has like 4 of them on his base and 2 on his zerg ball thing.
But I'll keep the snipe thing in mind, TSO.
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Problem is, the zerg that I'm playing with seems to have implemented Seers in his build. He has like 4 of them on his base and 2 on his zerg ball thing.
wat. 6 overseers? does this z just build that many seers blindly?...
I personally hate ghosts. Useless in bw, and still useless in 2. I might get 1-2 in tvp if I see like mass pheonix or some odd mass ht rush build, but every other match up I find them entirely useless. Ghosts aren't cost effective for "sniping" infestors or overseers or anything really. only good for emp. You would have to mass ghosts to keep up with their infestor count, which isn't good. Also, a tech switch would devastate you if you aren't careful with ghost production.
Really, try just a couple well positioned tanks. Whenever the z tries to approach with either infestor or banelings/lings, run your bio ball behind the tanks.
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The 6 seers are to stop Banshee harass early game. I'm quite fond of Banshees, you see.
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wat. 6 overseers? does this z just build that many seers blindly?...
I personally hate ghosts. Useless in bw, and still useless in 2. I might get 1-2 in tvp if I see like mass pheonix or some odd mass ht rush build, but every other match up I find them entirely useless. Ghosts aren't cost effective for "sniping" infestors or overseers or anything really. only good for emp. You would have to mass ghosts to keep up with their infestor count, which isn't good. Also, a tech switch would devastate you if you aren't careful with ghost production.
No you don't need a billion Ghosts, but one per every 25 supply or so is fine. Snipe is ridiculous in TvZ, I don't think you understand how great Snipe is. 40 damage, no mitigation, nothing. And even without Snipe they do very good damage against light.
And no Ghosts in TvP? What? What are you going to counter HTs with? Immortals? EMP is a force multiplier and a game changer in TvP. Without it P will beat you each and every time with an equal food count of units, period. EMP is what levels the playing field, and without it you're going to get demolished by immortals (vs mech) or storm (vs bio).
Current TvP metagame is cloaked Ghosts. Protoss literally has no counter. Cloak keeps HTs from using Feedback on them and keeps Observers in check (a quick EMP and a snipe or a round of Marines and it's gone). Ghosts keep Phoenix numbers in check (too many and they become liable to massed Ghost as they're light). EMP cuts 100 shields instantly, that's 200 damage you don't have to deal (shield has an armor of 1) and COMPLETELY shuts down Immortal Hardened Shield/Sentry Guardian Shield. Snipe will pick off very important units like HTs and Sentries allowing your meat and potatoes, your MMM or Marine/Tank army to clean up.
Hell even in TvT Ghosts are great. Nuke baiting forces your opponent to pick his tank lines up and redeploy or face being obliterated, and TvT is ALL about positioning. Clear out cliffs and other choke points of enemy tanks without firing a single shot and make it just that easier to creep up to your oppoent's front door.
Really, try just a couple well positioned tanks. Whenever the z tries to approach with either infestor or banelings/lings, run your bio ball behind the tanks.
That only works until Goldish level where Zergs get enough braincells not to run blings into a tank line.
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So, where should I aim while sniping on Zerg Balls? The general direction or prioritizing the Seers/Infestors first?
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Infestors mostly. Seers are a luxury but not a necessity unless you're relying heavily on cloaked Banshee (and even then Fungal Growth can be used to stall them). When the game moves towards Ultraling snipe Ultras and laugh maniacally as they melt.
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Also wtf when did Queens suddenly 1) become usable in BW and 2) ZvT now heavily favors Z when used? I know I stopped watching BW for a few months but this metagame shift is ridiculous. Mech is stomped hard by good Spawn Broodling usage and Zerg just lols at Terran Bio with Ensnare as it completely negates Stim.
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lol reminds me of a ZvP I saw a while back, infested terrans with queens. Worked quite well. Nice to see queens making their way in metagame. I don't remember who it was, but someone had a build where they could almost always force late game ZvZ, which means queens/defilers. Is that build still around? Haven't followed bw scene in a while. But yea, late game ZvZ....
No you don't need a billion Ghosts, but one per every 25 supply or so is fine.
That might as well be a billion ghosts. At what level does this work for you? I'd really like to see these games.
TvT nukes is great, but still not necessary to win. Most players opt for drops, forcing army to relocate. And a good drop is easier-and probably has better payoff if successful. Now if only ghosts had lockdown still....
Current TvP metagame is cloaked Ghosts.
Not necessarily the cloaked part, but yes ghosts are part of the metagame in TvP. But they aren't essential unless forced-mass pheonix/early mass sentry?/immortals?/mass ht archons. And, you should not rely on ghosts to win you the game-unless forced as above. T is always at a disadvantage in 200 food late game engagements. I don't care what army comp you have. Good drops/harass is the only way to win. Again 4+ ghosts is probably pushing it.
That only works until Goldish level where Zergs get enough braincells not to run blings into a tank line.
Try me. It works fine vs masters league zergs. And do you watch GSL or any of the pro matches? It seems to work just fine there. Makes Idra rage without fail everytime, I'm sure. The tanks are so brutal because blings are so cost inefficient vs mech, and T will simply run their bio ball behind their tank. And unless those blings are on creep, they will 1. die trying to get to the bio ball 2. 10 blings to just kill that 1 tank, while bio ball mops up. You can't go pure bio until you get those crucial 3/3 upgrades. And then all Z players qq because their units suck so bad, and ultras take 435345345 years to build. Subsequently why you hear Idra QQ about zerg since beta.
And ghosts in TvZ, will only work once/maybe twice. It will light counter that first muta ball and first infestors. But, larva mechanic is too strong, and a good Z will immediately abuse those ghosts next production cycle. And I don't know about you, but I scarcely have time to worry about snipe when I have blings/speed lings/mutas chasing my army down. Trust me, all the good players are worrying about splitting their army, rather than sniping. And ultras. yea, if Z manages to mass ultras. A couple ghosts will help a lot, but well...mass ghosts won't help you.
It's just the problem with ghosts/sc2 is everything is such such such a hard counter, that with the P warpgate/chrono and Z larva, they can remax their armies relatively quickly and counter you, while T slowly builds units 1 at time. Even if you win these engagements, you are usually left with useless units. Like how in TvP, P gets collosus-T misjudges and overproduces vikings, T kills the collosus, while T ground army gets wiped due viking overproduction, and T is left with all these useless vikings....While P lol warps in speed lots/stalkers/dts/ht or such. Ghosts no different. They are effective, but simply not in the next wave.
But, they did decrease gas cost on ghosts in recent patch, so they might be more viable. Who knows.
Wow I wrote an essay...
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Idra is a shitty Zerg tbh. He's overhyped simply because he's a foreigner. There's several Zergs who were twice the Zerg Idra ever was. Blings into tank lines is almost micro 101. You only do it if you have overwhelming numbers and you're just cleaning up. The real skill is in Marine splitting which really comes down to who's better, the Marine splitter or the Infestor caster.
Honestly Bling based builds are going to the wayside. They're only good against Tank/Marine, and only if you can catch Marines in the open. A build that requires your opponent to screw up is not a good build. There's been a lot of work on Hydraroach builds which are much more versatile IMO, with good Corruptor/Brood Lord usage Mech is mostly irrelevant and everyone is getting extremely good at creep spread so Hydra speed isn't as much of an issue.
The problem with ZvT isn't as much the Siege Tank as it is the current map pool. Current maps are very anti Zerg, they're close spawns (which makes ZvP bad), narrow with lots of chokes and highground (which makes ZvT bad) and with hard to defend naturals with very short main/natural rush distances (which makes ZvZ boring and devolve down to all-in builds). Tanks are pretty handily counted by Hydraroach, if they were given more room to swarm that is. But since they have to go almost single file through chokes they get blasted apart. Cliffed naturals don't help either as it gives Terran a hilariously easy method to harass Zerg for almost no work at all, especially since drop tech isn't a separate tree anymore.
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cuz srsbsns sc is life. Wondering what hotkey setups you guys use for races, both bw/sc2. if any at all.
sc2 T
early game
1,2,3,4 - workers. for apm spammage you see. 4 - scout
5 - cc
6 - raxs
7 - facs
8 - sp
mid-late game
1A1A1A1A1A1A 1,2,3,4.5 army. 4,5 spellcaster/support/drops/misc
9 - upgrades
0 - cc
but yea. too tempted to 1a only. zzzzz. wish blizz would give me option to limit unit selection to like 24 or somemat.
bw P
pretty much exact same. old habits die hard. I miss my 0p0p0p0p early game spam though.
@helvetica
newish map pool in ladder/gsl has some rather... large rush distances/open areas. Swear it just makes the game longer/encourages 200 army battle which is yawn.
Also played vs a few hydraroach, dunno, seems weak to me. Makes my drops even more effective because they have no speed lings/mutas to run back to base with. That or they become super defensive with their slow army-which seems to work only for P. And tanks do fairly well vs hydraroach, I do the opposite for banelings and make my bio meatshields. medivacs op. And brood lords hmm. They have to catch me by surprise to work. It is so easy to switch to vikings due to prior medivac production.
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Just limit group size yourself :b or is that too much work for you :V
Hydraroach requires a different mindset. You're right it's more of a defensive posture but that's fine, you're not winning speed matches with it. The real big deal is the game really hasn't developed yet. It's only been out for a year, BW is 13 years old and they're still finding new changes and builds (lollllllllll Queen ZvT makes me all sorts of warm and fuzzy). I think the 1a 200v200 mashes will be worked out of our systems once a good stable map pool comes out and more strict timings are discovered. Right now there really isn't much in the way of timing attacks/etc to keep people honest rather than just turtle off of 2 base and mash giant armies.
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Hotkey setups are as follows.
BW Terran
1-6 army (6 might be for spellcasters and such, when I play Toss for fun)
7 science vessels
8-0 comsat stations
simple, right?
SC2 Terran
1 army
2 medivacs/tanks/ghosts/whatever
3 Rax/factory
4 Orbital commands
5-7 misc shit
8-0 usually my expansions
SC2 has almost no Micro whatsoever. Well, bar the marine split for infestors but that's it.
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You know, I saw this thread on tl about macro mechanics, I need to see if I can find it again. Sad as it is, I believe sc2 has already been explored as much as it is ever going to be. at least until expansions.
Anyways, that tl thread had econ/macro graphs for all races for sc2 and bw. The graphs for sc2 confirmed my suspicions; it simply isn't worth it to have more than 3 fully saturated bases-other than for gas. Just think about the implications. No matter how large the maps get. No matter how "balanced" the unit stats get. No matter how much they tweak the tech tree timings. It all hinges on this macro mechanics. Add to that, the blazing fast gameplay/econ/teching, the game is going to get stale quickly. I don't think we will ever see the sprawling, insane map control we see in bw.
To all those who say, sc2 has only been out for 1 year, give it time- sc2 has 13 years of bw experience and infrastructure fueling it.
orz, I feel so sad now. and angry. Curse you dustin browder you troll, curse you! I wanted sc, not C&C5.
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Except SC2 and BW are not the same game, despite having a similar setting and premise. There's lots of game mechanics that do not translate to anything BW had, and there's things in BW that don't translate to SC2 either. Remember, to have perfect macro in BW requires INSANE execution, whereas in SC2 controls have been streamlined, and stuff like MBS/smartcast/etc make macro much easier. BW didn't have larva inject to remove the need for multiple home hatches (although there's still use for them) or chrono boosting to get key tech out faster or mule dropping making you decide between stocking for scans or burning energy for an econ boost. And by the state of balance they're tweaking more towards micro-heavy balancing to make up for the ease up on macro execution.
Sure being good at BW prepares you a bit more for SC2 as a lot of the concepts are the same, but when it comes down to it the games are completely different. SC2 is not BW2.
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Perfect Macro. Oh I miss those time where macro means having more than 8 of the same building and clicking each and every single one then queuing up a unit. Now for me it's just like
"3"
"aaaaaaddddd"
'Tab"
"ssss"
"4"
"e" *click*
Yeah, in that order.
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Exactly, MBS and co have made macro crazy easy in SC2, so the challenge now is to balance unit skills/etc to be more micro intensive.
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So far, I don't see much Micro in Terran. Zerg has it good with Infestor and Bling play and Toss has it with HT storms and feedbacks. Only thing T has is Drops and Ghosts for Micro.
Either way, I think I'm switching to Z for SC2. I think.
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I think most T micro is in the form of controlling the bioball, especially around enemy casters and banelings. Seriously, this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zSFGtko_Hk) shows how epic marine splitting can win you the game.
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did someone say micro intensive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm8pEwvLU98&t=0m36s)
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I think most T micro is in the form of controlling the bioball, especially around enemy casters and banelings. Seriously, this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zSFGtko_Hk) shows how epic marine splitting can win you the game.
That is FUCKING AWESOME.
Seriously, that was amazing micro by Happy.
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seems like the "micro" in sc2 consists of denying your opponent of the ability to micro... ff? conc shells? fungal growth? collosus? vikings? zealot lolblink? to an extent, storm?. zzzzzzzzzzzzz. And army size is so pathetic now. double gas workers+high food cost units. Oh and did you know army is much more effective when in a ball = army headbutting in middle, as opposed to bw spread out armies. Oh and units are so boring. There is no sense of wanting to have "control of space" with sc2 units. 3 lurkers could hold a ramp vs 2 groups of m&m. What sc2 units can come close to matching that? my god, blizz even took away high ground advantage. Ugh, need to stop thinking about sc2 vs bw.
Yea, it is very much a different game, sc2 and bw.
Yea, I'm biased.
I want to love sc2, I really do. But I'm losing hope, especially when in almost every patch blizz seems to think balancing = bunker build time/cost/salvage return...Really?
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Microing units lets you make them more effective than if you just let the built-in AI handle them. So if you can deny your enemy's ability to do that, then that's a good thing.
Concussive shells just makes marauders more useful, no micro required on each side since if an enemy unit gets slowed then it can't do anything about it. Much like getting +1 attack: if you've got it, then you've got it. (On the other hand, well-timed stimpaks can really do some damage, especially in drop form against enemy bases.)
The same could be said for zealot charge. It just makes them better units.
As for FF, storms, fungals, nukes, etc.,: Doesn't BW have spellcasters also? SC2 may have different spells, but it's a matter of preference whether you like them or not.
Colossi and vikings are actually units that would force your opponent to micro harder so that they don't get roasted/missile'd to death.
Actually, depending on army composition, concaves are generally better in terms of positioning. It allows you to take on an opponent from multiple directions while not having to break up your army. Exceptions to this are the protoss deathball and the terran bio/mech ball (extremely situational). Of course,successful flank attacks can also be very powerful.
Controlling space (AKA good positioning) is a major part of SC2 and RTS games in general. Good placement can instantly turn the game to your favor or cost you a victory. Siege tanks are a great example of this. In addition, keeping the enemy pinned down with the threat (but not occurrence) of attack can also work in your favor. Mutalisks are extremely good at this if the opponent can't construct/mobilize enough anti-air to deal with them.
High ground advantage still exists if the enemy doesn't have vision of the higher ground.
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All in all, BW and SC2 are just two different games with some similar aspects.
Though I might rage at some of Blizzard's updates (cough cough warpgate buildtime), I can understand where they are coming from. Your example of adding costs to bunker salvaging does make sense: bunkers, which increased the defense of terran bio, were basically free buildings if they could be salvaged; adding the salvage cost just makes it so that in the end, they actually did cost you some minerals.
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Tell me your reasoning behind the supply depot first then a rax.
I thought that patch was kinda stupid.
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Tell me your reasoning behind the supply depot first then a rax.
I thought that patch was kinda stupid.
Dustin Browder decided that T had too many early game options and tried to make them more like P and Z. Blizzard is still experimenting with balancing methinks, because some of these changes are pretty retarded.
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Tell me your reasoning behind the supply depot first then a rax.
I thought that patch was kinda stupid.
T did have too many options given the current state of balance and a lot of them really were blind faith counters. Even with the supply nerf SCV/Marine all-ins are still very doable, and let's be honest, noone did 10CC like in BW. The thing about Terran is having a hugely powerful build (and econ boost) before having to plunk down supply. While Zerg has the 6 pool, the other two races have standard play that easily defends against it, whereas Zerg really doesn't have anything to counter such early Marine/SCV all-ins (let alone Reaper builds) without cutting econ HARD with a super early scout. The starting game econ is extremely fragile and having to pull a worker at before 9 to scout for potential cheese is extremely detrimental.
Also I just started playing again after a long hiatus, and my god does my micro suck. I hate how despite never having played against it, I have the perfect instincts/etc to defend against the 3rax all-in (and notice it too), but then I lose anyways because I make one or two micro mistakes. Also ultras suuuuuuuuuuck now, I actually lost a game I was winning handily because I made a tech switch from Infestor/Ling to Ultra/Ling and he just massed Thors and Marines (expecting Brood Lords so it wasn't like the Ultra switch wasn't totally unfounded). Even then I managed to whittle him down far enough to a base trade situation but he ended up finding my last hatch.
I'm sticking to Infestor/Ling until I play people competent enough to handle it because oh man does it own in ZvT and ZvZ. I was playing one ZvZ almost perfectly. I sacced my starting Overlord and spotted the fast Lair and immediately switch to mass Roach production while getting out Spore Crawlers. I ran up his ramp with about 20 Roaches right as he was finishing his wall and his third Spine Crawler, and immediately ran in and sniped his Spire before it completed. I expanded behind the Roach pressure and transitioned to Infestor/Ling while continuing to pump Roaches in the meantime (making him think I was going Muta/Ling to bait Hydras). I eventually wore him down and broke his main open with a huge swarm of Speedlings and Infestors.
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Tell me your reasoning behind the supply depot first then a rax.
Actually, people were starting to manage against 5rr/7rr and the like. Blizz mentioned 2v2 and teamplay, in 2's, impossible to defend vs 2 reaper cheese. So yea, I think they changed it to appease the 2v2 crowd. Who probably won't be playing a year from now. Honestly back then, people didn't know how to handle reaper cheese. Anyways, good job blizz making the reaper useless. just goes to show how enforced roles the units are.
As for FF, storms, fungals, nukes, etc.,: Doesn't BW have spellcasters also? SC2 may have different spells, but it's a matter of preference whether you like them or not.
Colossi and vikings are actually units that would force your opponent to micro harder so that they don't get roasted/missile'd to death.
sc2 storm does more dps I believe. Once they go off, pretty much your entire army has to run. The unit army ball pathing is to blame here as well. Also, I bet 2 storms could cover my entire 200 food army. In bw, you'd see like 5+ storms at a time in different locations.
In small unit numbers, any units should be microed, but with high unit counts lolimpossible. Vikings you really can't micro vs. I mean really. You either engage or immediately run, that range... And they are going to be stacked ala viking flower. You can try to snipe collosi before they get range upgrade, but post upgrade, viking/corrupter counter is a must. That nice ball/concave is going to do you no good.
@helvetica
hehe should have got some infestors and parasite all the thors and go drink tea. I stopped doing any mass thors for this reason.
I at times feel really sorry for Z, their army comp feels so ineffective. and boring.
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I'm having trouble dealing with terran mech, particularly mass thors (as protoss). Everything I've tried has failed: zealots + colloxen, blink stalkers, charge zealots + immortals, dts; all have been utterly crushed. The latest match I played I still lost, when I had immortals + dts + charge-lots with 3/2/2 upgrades. The only thing I haven't tried is void rays, and I have a feeling that they would just be shot down with those missile thingies.
Is there any viable protoss counter to thors that doesn't involve massive casualties?
And as a side note, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj5wNWX6Iow) is one of the last games played by members of Root Gaming. You will be sorely missed.
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Use guardian shield.
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Use guardian shield.
How exactly does guardian shield help against Thors. :V
On another note, use HTs with feedback. VRs and Carriers are also viable solutions, since Thors have shit for anti-air.
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VRs are great against mass Thor especially with the bonus armored damage.
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^what commissar said. vr is a nightmare. In fact, if he is rushing mech, early vr will end the game right there. Heck even a 3 gate, let alone 4.
There are very vulnerable timings that meching T is exposed to, go watch reps and see where they are.
If it does get mid late game, expo and map control like crazy. punish his early game turtle and abuse his army mech immobility. Deny expos when T tries to take 3rd or 4th, pylons and wg units everywhere. But really, if you properly micro and engage favorably, and stay mobile, you should just outmacro him. Mech is so hard to rebuild yea? Even standard zlot/stalker should beat mass thors out, as long as you ff the thors down. Well, this is assuming you didn't let him get that critical mass of thors.
Anyways, been seeing a lot of what I think is spanishiwa style Z play, and it hurts. Like 15 min in, and Z already has infestors, 2/2 upgrades, creep almost to my natural what... 20 min I see ultras what.... 25 min broodlords... my god. how 2 counter plox. I've switched to a T gasless opening myself.
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IIRC, spanishiwa-style play is super-greedy but has no effective map control thanks to not getting gas until 40 control and relying on spines for early defense. So, get super-greedy yourself.
(Note: I am not good at Starcraft)
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The problem with that is the constant fear of a ling run-by just coming out of nowhere and murdering any expos you put up. Even a small group of about 8-12 of them could force you to abandon and maybe even outright destroy a hatch/cc/nexus if you can't get something to kill them over there in time. This fear is deeply embedded within anyone going up against a zerg, since the spawning pool is an essential building and will always be built; because lings are dirt cheap; and because sending a small squad of lings to mop up an expo while engaging your army is easy and effective. The only ways to counter this are to 1. wall off (which on some maps isn't exactly a viable strategy) and/or 2. put up a lot of static defense (in the form of a standing army or just lots of cannons/spines/bunkers with marines.
Unless your opponent is terrible at scouting, you couldn't get away with being greedy.
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Been experimenting with a Z practice partner-masters- and this spinashiwa/greedy style play is hard to punish (at least for me) unless I'm scv allin or some cheesy 2 base push/3port banshee, etc. He has enough spines/queens/creep that he should fend off any normal pushes. Oh, and the infestors/tech comes faster than I thought, its like 10 minutes in I see like 5-6 infestors lol. I can hellion drop, and he loses like 10 drones, and still be ahead in econ. orz.... Gasless opening is now my favorite. It really helps with TvP where I can keep up with P probe count, amazing~
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I hate ZvZ, that is all :|
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I hate ZvZ, that is all :|
And I hate PvP. :|
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I find that most mirror match-ups are really boring.
PvP: 4gates, colossus wars mid/late game (assuming no cannon rushes)
- Unless you have excellent micro (or your opponent has terrible micro), a 3gate robo/expo can't adequately produce enough defense to hold off a 4gate.
- If either side can't do enough damage in the early game, the game will definitely shift to WAR OF THE WORLDS because colossus have the greatest range of all protoss ground.
- Getting immortals would be more effective in dispatching a protoss ball, but forcefields would totally negate them.
ZvZ: roaches, later tech to banelings and/or mutas
- Roaches (after ultras) are the tanking units of the zerg army. They can absorb so much damage (and then regenerate the lost health) very easily.
- Banelings are used against lings, which can kill roaches in a surround.
- Mutas are used because neither of these can shoot air. I've never seen a game get past mutas.
TvT: tanks everywhere, viking support
- Siege tanks will incinerate a bioball incredibly quickly. That is all.
- Vikings are used to spot for the tanks and give them that extra range, as well as to secure air superiority.
On another note: this cast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx2-tP9jeuw) brings up an interesting question. Why don't more protoss get shield upgrades? Not only do they improve damage absorption by all units, they also apply to all structures. Upgraded shields means that any unit can take more hits without the shields failing, which then regenerate over time. Armor upgrades only apply to the army and even then only after the shields have failed.
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PvP was great in BW mostly because Shuttle/Reaver macro was a huge skill separator. SC2 it's just boring because Colossi epitomize the 1a entire blob style. Fancy Blink micro is great early game but as it drags on there's just too much going on you can't do it. Forcefields were impressive for like the first month SC2 was out but FF casting is like mandatory for any competent Protoss player.
TvT has always and will always be the most boring drawn out slowest matchup ever. Yawn tank lines creeping by an inch an hour. ZvZ at least ends quickly.
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I want more ghost builds.
No, seriously. SC2's getting boring.
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I do remember seeing a replay where getting mass ghosts in a TvT actually worked. I gotta find it.
E: Found it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBzf9og_eqU)
E2: I'm going to have to start spamming this in ladder matches. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgqNrlkxRp8)
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Yep.
21 minutes playing with a Z and I still don't have Thors.
ooh i have tanks while he has massive amounts of ultralisks.
I'm fucking slow and uninterested to play SC2 now.
EDIT: Here goes my brother giving me unfriendly advice and undermining my existence in RTS even further. Woo.
EDIT v2: derp a whole control group of Marines died from roughly 6 banelings.
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bw PvP was really honest. Both players have similiar army comp/food count, and all came down to positioning/reaver/storm.
I've seen /dance lose pros matches ahaha. Needs more in base manner CCs. But yea, I practically cheese in TvT. Mass drop yea. fk this protracted tank/rine/viking battle.
^take a break from sc2 yea? sc2 seems to be more frustrating/idra inducing, less reward factor. or something.
Interview for HotS.> http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232705 (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232705) Browder seems butthurt that all his rts games get compared to BW. " According to Blizzard the Overseer and Immortal are a high priority for redesign." lol. My eyes have seen the biggest troll.
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How to TvT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6aqO8FTM08)
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The problem with ZvZ in SC2 is the baneling. It is literally a crapshoot regardless of your micro skill. At least in BW there was a variety of builds and some sort of footsy involved with rushing to mutas vs getting ran over by speedlings. Roach builds are even more boring because then it just comes down to defender's advantage, they're closer and reinforce faster.
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The problem with ZvZ in SC2 is the baneling. It is literally a crapshoot regardless of your micro skill. At least in BW there was a variety of builds and some sort of footsy involved with rushing to mutas vs getting ran over by speedlings. Roach builds are even more boring because then it just comes down to defender's advantage, they're closer and reinforce faster.
That's why you do unorthodox builds like building a Hatch in the other's main. :v
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I proxy hatched someone, was the best.
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lawlz, friend just 12 drone rushed me in retribution for the scv/rine all in I did. This game...
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I had an game once, 4vs4, one friend disconnected and me got killed.
Then the other 2 friend left and I got control of 3 bases and 10k minerals/6k gas ^^
2 Motherships 10 currier, millions of stalker and dark templer
^^
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I'm fucking bored at this game
So fucking monotonous.
And my brother wonders why I don't play it anymore.
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the funmaps are great, similar to WC3, but melee gets boring after months ^^
this map for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3otPvdgWQds ^^
many WC3 fun maps got their remake in SC2
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ahahha Day9s funday monday SC2BW day. ahahha.
http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-318-funday-monday-sc2bw-5345218
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A useful tool for ZvZ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVcpbwGZtVE)
On another note, I've almost completely stopped 4gating, except for special cases when I know the opponent's trying to get up an early expo (and sometimes I 4gate robo or 5gate just to make sure I break their defenses).
My new standard build is a 2 or 3gate robo, depending on the enemy. Only chrono warpgate research once and focus on army production. I find that it helps me against early pushes but also gives me a unit advantage over a more eco-centered enemy. I still suck at dealing with cheese, though.
VS Terran: 2 gates, robo, 3rd gate
VS Passive Zerg: 1 gate, robo, add 2 gates
VS Aggressive Zerg: 3 gates, robo
VS Protoss: [either of the VS Zerg strategies depending on scouting, or 4 gate counter]
E: Fucking mass mutas. I have to hole up in my base until Blink is finished, and only then I get easily raped by a transition into roach/ling. It's almost impossible to counter. What am I supposed to do?
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E: Fucking mass mutas. I have to hole up in my base until Blink is finished, and only then I get easily raped by a transition into roach/ling. It's almost impossible to counter. What am I supposed to do?
Well, Muta is always hard against... I play Terran most, so I cannot give you an advice. Have you ever tried to go stargate? Since Voidray are pretty strong and can give you army good damage power if you don't lose them during harassment (or keep them with your army in the first place)
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Well, Muta is always hard against... I play Terran most, so I cannot give you an advice. Have you ever tried to go stargate? Since Voidray are pretty strong and can give you army good damage power if you don't lose them during harassment (or keep them with your army in the first place)
Mutas rip through VRs so fast. The only counter to mutas that's not Blink is massing phoenixes, and even then they're not a solid counter without shittons of micro. Make too few and you can't take on the flock, but make too many and your ground army suffers.
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I've seen very successful sg builds. Try watching a few games from like whitera. I don't remember exactly, but I think 1 gate core sg into pheonix. After 2-3 pheonix, get that first vr, and force the Z to get queens and hydras. Lift all the queens with your pheonix. Mutas will get destroyed/will be very late vs this build. After you force the Z to go hydras, get collosi and control the game from there. However, the KEY to the build is to Never never lose that first vr.
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Today is Friday. You know what that means. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzq2O54LLIw)
On a more serious note, I was reading a thread on the Blizzard forums suggesting that chrono should be able to restore energy to spellcasters (HTs and sentries). The reasoning was this: sentries would be able to do more ffs and guardian shields, and temps would be able to get in more storms before having to turn themselves into archons in order to be useful; the drawback, especially during the early game, is that there would be less nexus energy available for probes or upgrades. During the late game, when the protoss is maxed and the upgrades are just about done, the built up energy is basically useless. MULEs always retain their usefulness (it's unlikely the entire map will be mined out), and queens can transfuse units and buildings as well as stockpile larvae.
Thoughts? I personally think this is a good idea that Blizzard should at least consider.
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I'd rather Blizzard let me chrono my friend's reactor'd Rax so he can pump out more marines. :3
The idea sounds good on paper, but it really depends on how much energy is restored. Maybe around 25 or 50 energy per chrono would be fair.
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50 energy is about right.
For sentries:
1 FF = 50
1 Guardian Shield = 75
For Templar:
1 Feedback = 50
1 Psi Storm = 75
If a CB provided only 25, then it would take two of them to make either spellcaster (assuming both are at 0 energy to start) able to cast another spell. Keep in mind that the queen's most useful support ability (aside from spreading creep), Transfuse, as well as all of the Orbital Command's abilities (which retain their value even during the late game, especially MULEs and scans) all cost 50 energy.
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what, they retain their value. chrono your wgs. the energy gain would be op, there is a reason why they removed the khaydarin amulet upgrade? for the ht so no insta warpin storm.
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Then why do infestors still get Pathogen Glands? It lets them cast Fungal immediately.
Most protoss players have their warpgates scattered across various areas, making it harder to chrono all of them. They don't even need to be binded to a hotkey since they already come with one (W) [though I usually do bind them anyways]. Also, in the late game, when a protoss has maxed out and has extra warpgates to remax faster during an engagement, it'd be impractical to warp in more units and chrono all the gates one by one while still controlling the army.
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You can't warpin infestors. Infestors still have to rally and walk to my bioball, k tnx.
Most P I've seen have most of their wgs all in 1 spot no? You can also chrono them without going back to your base, use your minimap. And yes, people use chrono on wgs during engagements, as do Z for their larva injects.
And chronoing spellcasters seems like a fun idea, but ...even early game hard to balance, a mass sentry build, FF, and then LOLFF again? yea... And late game would turn into spell spam with P massing nexus just for energy, since there is so much surplus minerals.
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You can't warpin infestors. Infestors still have to rally and walk to my bioball, k tnx.
Keep in mind that a P can only produce X amount of units per X amount of warpgates. Although they have the ability to warp in anywhere as long as it's next to a pylon, there's at least a 30-second wait (not CB'd) until the gates are ready again.
On the other hand, zerg hatcheries/lairs/hives can produce multiple units at once, up to a maximum of 19 each. Terran structures can have reactors, which allows for double the rate of production for key units like marines and medivacs (though this doesn't apply for units that require tech labs like tanks, thors, banshees, etc).
Most P I've seen have most of their wgs all in 1 spot no? You can also chrono them without going back to your base, use your minimap. And yes, people use chrono on wgs during engagements, as do Z for their larva injects.
Not exactly. Depending on the style of the player and the events of a particular game, gateways are often used defensively to wall off expos (especially vs zerg).
And how accurate do you think chrono-ing from the minimap is? Very hard, from past experience. I've tried using CBs on my nexuses from the minimap, and it's not an easy task. The reason zergs can inject before/during/after combat is because they bind all of their hatches/lairs/hives (and sometimes their respective queens too) to different hotkeys. Binding every warpgate to its own key would be a terrible idea. The only time I could see a protoss chrono-ing during a fight is when he or she is making a frantic defense off of 1 or 2 bases.
And chronoing spellcasters seems like a fun idea, but ...even early game hard to balance, a mass sentry build, FF, and then LOLFF again?
Except sentries do shit for DPS. Mass sentries is only used (by the pros) for securing expos, for defense, or for teh lulz. Using chrono on sentries would damage to an early game economy and would be better off getting probes, upgrades, or some actual attacking units. HTs without support also get raped quickly since Storm requires that the enemy units be within a certain radius.
yea... And late game would turn into spell spam with P massing nexus just for energy, since there is so much surplus minerals.
Don't zerg get macro-hatches? Don't terrans get macro-CCs?
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Well, blizz needs to find another mechanic for lategame nexus energy then.
The CC and Queens are supposed to be a macro mechanic.
You are right, mid-late game P doesn't really need nexus/chrono energy. So that's why this would be too powerful, P will have 200 energy at every nexus=free storm/ff. The macro CC and macro hatches are just that, for macro purposes. Something like transfuse on queens is completely different, and quite useless late. Oh and queens take supply.
On the other hand, zerg hatcheries/lairs/hives can produce multiple units at once, up to a maximum of 19 each. Terran structures can have reactors, which allows for double the rate of production for key units like marines and medivacs (though this doesn't apply for units that require tech labs like tanks, thors, banshees, etc).
I may sound like Idrarageqq here, but this is precisely why I feel T can't keep up with the other races in production. Marines are terrible late game. Really armies are judged by their gas value in sc2, not food value.
People complain T cheese, early game imba? Blame blizz for making T production so weak late game. T has to constantly army trade/harrass to keep up in both worker count and army "gas" value. While mules make up a lot for the economy differences, P and Z will win outright if T is super passive and isn't doing some sort of 2 base/turtle timing cheesy play. This terrible production is also why there is no more pure mech play, the build time is far too long. Also, cd on wg might be 30 s, but there is no rally or walk time. In practice, I believe P can remax their army the quickest. I mean... 12+ wg, you don't even need chrono... /rage
I wish blizz would take out these 1 trick pony macro mechanics. Being able to max easily off of 2 base 13 min in game...That never happened in BW.
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Well, blizz needs to find another mechanic for lategame nexus energy then.
The CC and Queens are supposed to be a macro mechanic.
You are right, mid-late game P doesn't really need nexus/chrono energy. So that's why this would be too powerful, P will have 200 energy at every nexus=free storm/ff. The macro CC and macro hatches are just that, for macro purposes. Something like transfuse on queens is completely different, and quite useless late. Oh and queens take supply.
I may sound like Idrarageqq here, but this is precisely why I feel T can't keep up with the other races in production. Marines are terrible late game. Really armies are judged by their gas value in sc2, not food value.
People complain T cheese, early game imba? Blame blizz for making T production so weak late game. T has to constantly army trade/harrass to keep up in both worker count and army "gas" value. While mules make up a lot for ~*~~*~the economy~*~~*~ differences, P and Z will win outright if T is super passive and isn't doing some sort of 2 base/turtle timing cheesy play. This terrible production is also why there is no more pure mech play, the build time is far too long. Also, cd on wg might be 30 s, but there is no rally or walk time. In practice, I believe P can remax their army the quickest. I mean... 12+ wg, you don't even need chrono... /rage
I wish blizz would take out these 1 trick pony macro mechanics. Being able to max easily off of 2 base 13 min in game...That never happened in BW.
I agree with you that Terran production is quite lethargic in comparison to the other two races.
I understand that Terran is supposed to be a sort of middle ground between the macro-focused Zerg and the micro-intensive Protoss. They can construct buildings virtually everywhere on the map, and most of those buildings can move to more advantageous positions, i.e. acquiring tech labs/reactors or taking island expos, a convenience neither of the other two has (to be clear, protoss can also construct virtually anywhere but the buildings cannot move and they must have a power source, which is 100 minerals down the drain). However, they lose out in the fact that the production facilities can only pump out 1 or 2 units at a time (zerg can train multiple larvae) and that there is a significant wait time before the unit(s) is/are produced (protoss warp-ins only take a few seconds). This especially applies to heavy mech or air builds, in which factories or starports with tech labs have to churn out expensive units slowly. On the other hand, marines and marauders can be pumped out fairly quickly and are extremely potent against all unit types, especially with stim. [On an unrelated note, this is why I believe that the current Terran metagame focuses heavily on MMM and/or marine-tank builds.]
E: If nexus energy can't be used to make spellcasters more useful, can you suggest another way? I'm not challenging you, I'm just wondering to see if there are better ways to handle this. Seriously, during the late game, nexuses are only good for keeping the protoss's base from being revealed.
Oh, and if I could ask Blizzard one more thing, it would be: Please make Motherships more powerful. The fire rate is pitifully slow, and they are pretty fragile considering their cost and training time.
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It only takes 3 sentries to FF a ramp permanently. Giving energy regen to chrono boost would make sentry cheese ridiculous (split army up ramp, wall off and kill natural uncontested).
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Well, to be fair, T doesn't really use mules or scans all that often late game. I think it's mostly fine the way it is, you still chrono that robo/sg all game long, and forge and high templar upgrades still take some time. Z is only one that constantly needs to be busy with queens. We will have to wait and see with the next expansions.
Blizz is implementing limited region linking, and if any of you still play sc2, we should all try to get together and play a few games. Im in NA region. Or at least some good old bw games... I usually hang out at #dots-meido.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=242929
Funny to see that blizz finally developed this "magical" technology. See? Having everyone be able to play on a different regions is possible after all. Maybe after blizz milk all our money from us, will they let us cross region for free.
edit: oh I wish they would get rid of mothership. so slow, so useless. but, sc2 is all about the showy and flashy new units. They are going to redesign the overseer instead, cuz it's boring.
The one change I wish to see the most is changing the gateway/wg mechanic. Have the gateway be able to build all the units, but wg only tier 1/1.5 units. This would force the P to choose, a bit like T reactor/tech labs, and it would stop this retarded instawarp in tier 2+ units.
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yeah nice, EU will be linked with Russia, :V :V :V :V :V :V :V
I don't play that often anymore, I played fun map the most (SC2 Dota) ^^ and some battle against my friends.
I'm horrible ^^ about 60 apm but if I start playing again I'll start at 6 apm or so xD
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Well, to be fair, T doesn't really use mules or scans all that often late game. I think it's mostly fine the way it is, you still chrono that robo/sg all game long, and forge and high templar upgrades still take some time. Z is only one that constantly needs to be busy with queens. We will have to wait and see with the next expansions.
Blizz is implementing limited region linking, and if any of you still play sc2, we should all try to get together and play a few games. Im in NA region. Or at least some good old bw games... I usually hang out at #dots-meido.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=242929
Funny to see that blizz finally developed this "magical" technology. See? Having everyone be able to play on a different regions is possible after all. Maybe after blizz milk all our money from us, will they let us cross region for free.
edit: oh I wish they would get rid of mothership. so slow, so useless. but, sc2 is all about the showy and flashy new units. They are going to redesign the overseer instead, cuz it's boring.
The one change I wish to see the most is changing the gateway/wg mechanic. Have the gateway be able to build all the units, but wg only tier 1/1.5 units. This would force the P to choose, a bit like T reactor/tech labs, and it would stop this retarded instawarp in tier 2+ units.
Well, Blizzard has already made both the mothership and BCs impractical, so it's really no harm to just have them in-game. They're really just for shits and giggles nowadays, and it's a bit fun to try and catch your opponent off-guard with something really random. In fact, BC rushing can actually hard counter marine tank builds!
However, I don't see them nerfing warpgate really hard like what you've suggested. Losing the ability to warp in HTs and DTs would be pretty harsh. It would make it so that a protoss would have to build separate gateways just for these units (which are 150 min a piece) or downgrade some of his warpgates into gateways. If Blizzard was really intent on changing aspects about the warp system, it would probably be to increase/decrease the cooldown time after certain units were warped in.
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lol stupid nasl, blueflame hellions everywhere! soooo many dead scvs. What to doooo