Adorable Game of Mafia (Everyone wins!)

[Raitaki]

Actually, when I came to this reasoning I concluded that if it was correct then IHNN would not be scum.

[Shadoweh]

Yup that's me. Analytic and precise and all serious business. I'm not asking if you think -I'm- a good player though. I'm asking who you think is being a good townie by your definition and why. Do you think IHNN is a good townie? What about Pesco, Kilgamayan, BT, NekoNekoRex etc?

[Raitaki]

As I said, I'm a terrible judge of character/behavior. I can't even tell who's a likely townie yet in this stage of the game.

[BT]

Actually, when I came to this reasoning I concluded that if it was correct then IHNN would not be scum.

And here we reach the heart of the matter: is IHNN town? Clearing people because your scumreads are lynching them is a mistake you don't want to make. In fact, you're not even sure of your vote. If this isn't your cue I don't know what is: go read IHNN and tell me if anything miraculously changed.

General impression is that there is a lack of scum in the building. Eagerly awaiting reading HW/Serela/Kilga once they actually show up. <_<

[I have no name]

I still don't like BT very much after re-reading but I can't figure out why.
There's something funny about Omba though in general I find myself agreeing.

So, with my gut already saying "these 2 are scum!!!11!one" at this point...I don't know.  I always seem to have 2 gut votes D1.

Moving on to everyone else, Kilga needs to post more, Pesco needs to post more, huh what needs to post more, Serela needs to post more and PX could stand to post a little more. 

Continuing, Shadoweh, though she's voting me, she has reasons for it that make sense.  Would not lynch.
Neko has been absent for a while but from what he posted I don't see any problems.
Affinity I agree with on pretty much everything that's been said.  Would not lynch.

and that leaves Raitaki.  In hindsight he looks worse than I thought, seems to be making excuses for everything, though does seem to be using some logic.  But, logic is null so... ##Vote: Raitaki (L-3)

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Vote Count: Only One Number One edition

edible pls stop enabling nnr

huh what, Affinity: Broaden your view please.
The same goes for more players than just these two.

How, by throwing out "kilga serela please respond" at the end of every post I make? 1 - 2 strong scum reads are good enough for D1 if you're not giving everybody else a pass.

General impression is that there is a lack of scum in the building. Eagerly awaiting reading HW/Serela/Kilga once they actually show up. <_<

My last post was at 10PM my time. Pretty sure the only thing I'm guilty of is sleeping

Spoiler:

in

.

Dislike Raitaki's BT vote. How is Raitaki not guilty of the same "wagon derailment" by tying BT with IHNN? BT's vote wasn't even guaranteed to start a wagon, Raitaki's was guaranteed to contribute to one. It's hypocritical and for a wait-and-see wagon hop the vote doesn't look very thought out. Does he have any scum reads or even just nitpicky comments on the people who aren't already targets?

Rex is overjustifying and it really really looks like he's setting himself up to turn around and vote somebody who was on the Raitaki wagon after Raitaki posts real content. He's spending more time bickering about people voting Raitaki for the wrong reasons than pressing Raitaki for being scum. Makes his vote seem false. Want to hear his thoughts on Raitaki's recent posts.

The BT wagon looks weak to me, only vote on it with substance is Affinity's and I still find that questionable; there's no need to fluff up your posts talking about somebody if your read on them isn't relevant.

IHNN has read more Silly than Scummy to me but there are enough plays I have actual issues with - the voteparking, being overreactive wrt Raitaki's vote, folding over the BT vote to go "WHOOPS EMPTY UNVOTE I NEED TO RE-READ" - that I wouldn't be sad to see him go.

Shadoweh, why does it matter who Raitaki is reading as town halfway into day 1?

--

IHNN cut: Uhhhhh that's a lot of fluff points and some questionable PoE. Why do we need to know that you wouldn't lynch Shadoweh/Affinity if we're not currently wagoning them? Also Pesco has said more of worth than PX and both have posted reasonably.

[I have no name]

"I NEED TO RE-READ" - that I wouldn't be sad to see him go.
...
IHNN cut: Uhhhhh that's a lot of fluff points and some questionable PoE. Why do we need to know that you wouldn't lynch Shadoweh/Affinity if we're not currently wagoning them? Also Pesco has said more of worth than PX and both have posted reasonably.

Haven't I done that every game?
...
I was giving an opinion on everyone and the people I have a null read on I said should post a little more.

[Serela]

I'd frownface at Omba for attacking me over doing a random vote in RVS and saying I'm not going to be contributing to imaginary scumhunting, but then I also didn't do anything for a significant amount of time after, so I guess it eventually became a legitimate point, and it's not like he was sitting his vote on me for a long time before the point became legitimate either.

Rai is argh, but since this is his first game here, I'm not terribly surprised at such, so, as usual, leaving that for later in the game where there's more things to look at then "his posts are weird", which anyone could guess would happen since before the game started.

IHNN is posting a bunch, and it feels like he's at least trying, even if it's coming out sort of weird, so I'm not interested in him as a D1 lynch.

cut while I was doing more rereads on people to figure out who I think is scum and okay nevermind.

##Unvote ##Vote IHNN

He goes through all that only for him to chicken out and go back to voting Raitaki. Okay, well, I guess he never -was- voting Raitaki, but it almost feels like he has been, considering how he's been talking about him during the day so far. IHNN's BT vote only felt like an afterthought given the amount of attention he gave it in his post compared to everything else, and he was easily talked out of it. He barely even sounds convinced in his Raitaki vote, saying "Well he looks worse in hindsight" and moreso in "...but he's using logic! But logic is null, soooooo..."

It feels like he's scum going "Man, I don't know who to vote anymore, well I can totally get away with voting Raitaki" and just shoving his vote on while adding in inconsequential babbles on everyone else.

[I have no name]

IHNN is posting a bunch, and it feels like he's at least trying, even if it's coming out sort of weird
...
It feels like he's town going "Man, I don't know who to vote anymore why I want to vote BT, well I can totally get away with voting Raitaki at least I have someone else I found scummy" and just shoving his vote on while adding in inconsequential babbles trying to give opinions on everyone else.

Fixed that for you.

If being confused is scummy then I'm number 1 scum. Compare this game to Shadoweh's game though-my play is nothing alike.

Also I'm at L-2 now.  Would the (by gut) 4 townies on me please unvote?

I honestly feel like Serela is another person voting the guy with the most posts because more posts=more opportunities to do something someone construes as scummy.

[Pesco]

Actually, when I came to this reasoning I concluded that if it was correct then IHNN would not be scum.

@Pesco: I placed my vote on BT because I reasoned that scum would prefer to get a good townie player lynched. There aren't many players here that openly expressed an opinion that I should not be lynched, so scum can still attempt to drive the bandwagon back into me if they so wanted, they still have the time to do so.
As for pressing on IHNN, I'd guess that (assuming BT is scum) was an attempt to use IHNN's reaction to my random vote to build up momentum for a bandwagon by having another scum player later join in. I'm not saying at least one of the players poking at IHNN must be scum though.

@BT and Omba: I think mafia scum would prefer to lynch good townie players over bad townie players.

As I said, I'm a terrible judge of character/behavior. I can't even tell who's a likely townie yet in this stage of the game.

If I'm following this right, you would have to assume that IHNN is a good player, such that scumBT wanted to try lynch them. Considering that you take this as expected scum play, I would reason that you as scum, following this same play could see BT as a good player that you want to get lynched.

You still haven't given a clear explanation as to why derailing your wagon was a scummy thing to do.

There's just a whole lot of assumption and disconnect here that I don't see you scumhunting. People who don't scumhunt are scum.

##Unvote
##Vote Raitaki

HW asked more good questions about your vote placement.

[Kilgamayan]

Present.

- [Edible][/edible]

[NekoNekoRex]

Read "worst case". Your post was plausibly scum-motivated so I noted as much. Throwing away two votes (Omba's and PX's) to the dump with a simple comment about content (when low-to-gut(no) content votes are nothing special during ed1) is pretty handy for scum.

I never said I thought they were scum, I just think that if we're trying to recover from a game where half the people were sheep, then a lack of post content should be something worth calling out.

Bullshit. Use your brain. If the reason is obvious I don't necessarily need to state it and if it isn't and you want to know, push me on it. That simple.
For PX - it didn't take someone else's explanation to make his post "okay", it was fine exactly because the explanation Pesco gave for it naturally comes from his one word reason + context.
Reasons for my switch here: Excuses, appeasement vote, tone of post (AtE feel), still did nothing.
There's a pretty awful amount of overjustification of your New guy vote in your posts.

You know what, I'm just going to drop this if you can't just admit your vote had basically no content behind it and that it was just as likely to be a sheep vote then a vote with any reasons attached. PX seems to be ignoring me but at least he's putting out content now too so it's not even important.

I'll just wait and continue reading before I make some more comments. Better then letting this sit here unposted.

[Kilgamayan]

Way too many words for first 24 hours of game. Not behavior we should be teaching/encouraging/enabling.

Uninterested in Ihnnaba or Raitalky lynch at present, both games scream "inexperienced townie with little clue what they're doing".

Shadoweh, why did you ask Raitaki to judge my play so far?

##Unvote, ##Vote: Omba

Lots of questions that only go somewhere sometimes, recall more empty townie fluff than anyone else other than Ihnnaba (whose behavior in this regard can be chalked up to being super-excitable). Empty question in #47 (answer should have been contextually obvious), empty call for activity (and needless antagonistic aggression) in #99, empty townie fluff at end of #110, things like that. Also disagree with early Serela assessment, explanation in #99 puts rather nasty spin on early Serela post and citing "the waffles yet to come I could feel from that post" in particular cannot possibly accomplish anything but discouragement. Also also get overall sense of attempt to remind people he exists with each post, as well as encourage noise, both probably at least in part from glut of questions. Purpose of game being to encourage good play makes asking newbies lots of questions good show of activity/:goodposting:, so glut of questions are null on their own and can be interpreted as I have done in light of other issues.

Fake Edit: Frowny face at end of NNR's most recent post. :| Comes after mod put out call to play nice - if there were any lingering personal issue they should have been put to bed then - and tone does little else but to antagonize and dull the intended point.

[NekoNekoRex]

Man this PR is annoying, didn't think I'd have to wait that long to post.

Anyway reading up to this point nothing has really jumped out at me as bad, the case on IHNN looks like a lot of arm-flailing so far and doesn't seem very strong. Serela's post seems to be the exception to this, her reasoning for voting NoName comes off as forced and it looks backed up with a bunch of fluff.

##Unvote
##Vote: Serela

Rai's wagon still hasn't convinced me he's scum instead of newbplay, but I'll hop back on if he starts showing some actual scum tendencies.

[Affinity]

Nothing is wrong with BT's case (how could it be when it's so simple?).  I'm just going by what isn't there, since his opinion on Nameless wasn't accompanied with one on Rai, and Nameless FoS'ed the latter.

Correcting myself.  Point stands that one should consider IHNN's actions in context of Rai before forming an opinion on him as scummy, given that Rai is so polarizing.  BT and Serela are quite guilty of this, I think, though BT's responses have appeased me a bit.

I simply don't see what Nameless staying stalwart on pesco for half a day has accomplished from a scum perspective.  So that he could vote Rai much later?  Yes, his opinions are sadly neutral and sheep-ish, but I think he's town.  Same goes for Rai.

It feels like he's scum going "Man, I don't know who to vote anymore, well I can totally get away with voting Raitaki"

@Serela: Why is IHNN's late vote on Rai scummy when he could have done so much earlier and more naturally early D1?  There were abundant reasons to 'appear strong'.

===

##Unvote
##Vote: Omba

I agree with Kilga on Omba, actually.  Omba's posts are mostly about staying on Rai, while going on side-tangents with other people through questioning which have not shown their real use.  The fact that he's not asking the people he thinks are scum those questions (e.g Serela, Nameless), seems like the opposite of good, flexible, scumhunting.

[Omba]

The fact that he's not asking the people he thinks are scum those questions (e.g Serela, Nameless), seems like the opposite of good, flexible, scumhunting.

Where did I state that I think of No name as scum and how was I supposed to ask Serela questions when he hadn't posted -at all- outside of his one post where he told us he won't post for a while?
Moreover, how is asking people other than current scumreads questions the opposite of -flexible- scumhunting?

[Affinity]

Okay, fine, not Nameless but Rai.  Pardon the rhetoric.  Compared to people like pesco and huhwhat you seem more kosher about leaving your vote there without questioning him, waiting for him to magically sprout 'good content'.  Why is this so?

[I have no name]

*sigh*
and again, more experienced players come in and put into words what I'm thinking far more eloquently/convincingly than I've been able to.

There's something funny about Omba though in general I find myself agreeing [with him].

click the above green text for casewall

Kilga's post pretty much exactly sums it up, with more words and more reasons than I would have.

Neko, what are your thoughts on Omba?
Omba, what are your thoughts on BT?
BT, what are your thoughts on me?

@mod, can we get a votecount?

Likely going offline for the night.  Won't be around much tomorrow, what with driving practice+lesson and DSDQ recording.

[Edible]

Vote Count: meow meow meow meow meow edition

Raitaki (4): huh what, Omba, IHNN, Pesco
IHNN (4): BT, PX, Shadoweh, Serela
Omba (2): Kilgamayan, Affinity
BT(1): Raitaki
Serela (1): NekoNekoRex

Not voting: Nobody!

You have ~45 hours remaining.  With 12 in play, it takes 7 votes to launch.

[Pesco]

Affinity what was your BT case in the first place when all I could make out was you sounding like IHNN was the scummier one?

[PX]

Seconding huhwhat's comments on Neko, indeed seems like a lot of talk to get people off the Raitaki wagon while keeping his vote fairly planted on it. Would like to see his comments on Raitaki's current play.

Still don't like Affinity's first post, he condemned people for not commenting on Raitaki, yet didn't comment on Raitaki himself.

IHNN's 124 and 137 still feel pretty blarghghgh to me. If you feel Kilga's case sums up your feelings, why aren't you following it with a vote instead of planting your vote on Raitaki, who doesn't seem like you see as scum. And that post 124 felt more like fluff to excuse a bad vote.

[Shadoweh]

PX, Neko is currently voting Serela though. Do you think his vote switch is legit?

For the people asking why I asked Rai about who he thinks is town:  :| Because I was trying to walk him through figuring out his town reads. I threw out a bunch of random names in case he wasn't going to answer me if I didn't. His answer was disapointing.

[PX]

Koromo can't determine if his switch is legit or genuine or not because he never really expressed his opinion on his previous vote.

[Pesco]

Townies hunt scum. Why are you looking for townies Shadoweh? Finding town reads is not in the win condition of town.

[Kilgamayan]

Shadoweh: Uninterested in hearing general purpose of list, since I could figure that out on my own. Interested in why I was included. Particularly interested in what answer you expected him to give about me, given I had said a grand total of one non-serious word outside very first post of game.

[Shadoweh]

I'm not looking for townies. I'm looking to understand the way people think.

Kilga: Honestly, because when I think of 'good townies' you're one of the first names to come to my mind.  It occured to me he wouldn't know that on his own. I didn't expect him to say anything about you.

I'm satisfied with IHNN's response at the moment. More importantly in my mind, he was voted right after by this.

I'd frownface at Omba for attacking me over doing a random vote in RVS and saying I'm not going to be contributing to imaginary scumhunting, but then I also didn't do anything for a significant amount of time after, so I guess it eventually became a legitimate point, and it's not like he was sitting his vote on me for a long time before the point became legitimate either.

Rai is argh, but since this is his first game here, I'm not terribly surprised at such, so, as usual, leaving that for later in the game where there's more things to look at then "his posts are weird", which anyone could guess would happen since before the game started.

IHNN is posting a bunch, and it feels like he's at least trying, even if it's coming out sort of weird, so I'm not interested in him as a D1 lynch.

Information instead of  analysis. Three people mentioned and no indication of how Serela actually feels about any of them. He's also making excuses for people's actions when he should have no reason to assume people are acting in good faith.

##Unvote ##Vote IHNN

He goes through all that only for him to chicken out and go back to voting Raitaki. Okay, well, I guess he never -was- voting Raitaki, but it almost feels like he has been, considering how he's been talking about him during the day so far. IHNN's BT vote only felt like an afterthought given the amount of attention he gave it in his post compared to everything else, and he was easily talked out of it. He barely even sounds convinced in his Raitaki vote, saying "Well he looks worse in hindsight" and moreso in "...but he's using logic! But logic is null, soooooo..."

I wouldn't say IHNN was easily talked out of his vote. He conceded an argument when he was shown he was wrong. Being wrong doesn't make you scum. You don't explain why it matters that he 'went back' to Raitaki despite fluffing your argument by reminding us how much he was talking about him. If he was already suspicious of Raitaki, and was confronted with the notion that his current suspicions were incorrect, doesn't it make sense that he voted for someone he's been suspicious of for awhile? I think this is just more information instead of analysis. You're telling us what IHNN did and adding "and that's scummy" to the end.

So let's go over the checklist.
 - Has posted all of twice in the last 24 hours? Check.
 - Has not posted any town or scumreads? Check.
 - Jumped onto an alreadymade bandwagon without any original points? Check.
 - Sounds like he's trying to convince himself he hates people, not other people? Check.

In short Serela:

It feels like he's scum going "Man, I don't know who to vote anymore, well I can totally get away with voting RaitakiI have no name" and just shoving his vote on while adding in inconsequential babbles on everyone else.

##Unvote
##VOTE: SERELA

You judge a lurker by the few things they do post. When a person turns up infrequently to add nothing, that lurker is likely scum. I highly doubt Serela is going to rush to post more in his defense if he's scum, so I'd appreciate if people don't give out free passes for not posting.

[Kilgamayan]

o_O Who is giving out free passes for not posting? I hold that D1 is too early for LAL because extenuating circumstances are entirely possible, but I don't automatically think D1 lurkers are town, and I don't recall anyone in this game positing that lurkers should get a free ride outside of maybe Ihnnaba really early on (and that was under conditionals that don't apply at present anyway). It's possible I missed someone varbally giving lurkers a free pass but I don't recall it.

How do you propose we not give lurkers a free pass, anyway? Should we only vote lurkers or what? Or should we attach empty lurker calls to our posts?

[Affinity]

Affinity what was your BT case in the first place when all I could make out was you sounding like IHNN was the scummier one?

BT did not give an opinion on Rai while voting IHNN for FoS'ing instead of voting Rai, making it seem contextless.  Thus it seems most like a jump compared to that of others, which seem more well-meaning and complete.

Still don't like Affinity's first post, he condemned people for not commenting on Raitaki, yet didn't comment on Raitaki himself.

If you find Nameless scummy, surely you must have an opinion on Rai given that the vote on Nameless is due to him dancing on Rai. 

I don't agree with the case on Nameless thus I find him exempt. 

[Shadoweh]

o_O Who is giving out free passes for not posting? I hold that D1 is too early for LAL because extenuating circumstances are entirely possible, but I don't automatically think D1 lurkers are town, and I don't recall anyone in this game positing that lurkers should get a free ride outside of maybe Ihnnaba really early on (and that was under conditionals that don't apply at present anyway). It's possible I missed someone varbally giving lurkers a free pass but I don't recall it.

How do you propose we not give lurkers a free pass, anyway? Should we only vote lurkers or what? Or should we attach empty lurker calls to our posts?

It's been my experience that this happens every game when a lurker is put forward as a lynching option. Regardless I'd prefer if you address the case I made and tell me if you agree with me instead of making it sound like I'm calling for a lurker hunt.

[BT]

Shadoweh: Case is neat, but I prefer the dude with a solid stance over the dude that blames his lack of a solid stance on meta. What in particular made you satisfied with IHNN's response?

Not seeing the Omba case so much. Continuous fluff would be a problem but so far he voiced his opinions passably at worst.