~Beyond the Border~ > Genji's Battle Arena
Silly item names/icons in DoTS
Aphid_MOTK:
A lot of the items in DoTS are based on touhou directly, but there are
quite a few that I would label as 'silly', based around internet memes, or word jokes. They seem
more like placeholders for 'real items' where the real item simply hasn't been thought of yet.
They ruin the 'immersion factor' for me, brother sharp is some random real person,
what's that got to do with Touhou and Gensoukyou?
Since the inception of dots there have been a few more iterations of Touhou,
and we are quite at the point now that it should probably be possible to get a full
complement of items just from things in the touhou universe, without having to
add those silly items to fill out the missing 'gaps'. I believe that's mainly the reason they exist.
I would want to pose a suggestion to the developers to shuffle things around a bit so these are not needed,
but I ask for additional expertise on all things Touhou to really make this as good as it can be a
suggestion.
Important: This has very little to do with game balance and is a purely cosmetical thing. I believe the
only balance-related thing in here is switching around the buildup of the bloodstone equivalent so it's
more natural.
I want to create a proposal with the help of others to fill the gaps, and submit this as a suggestion
to the developers, so the silly items can get replaced by touhou ones.
I propose to replace the following
items with equivalents from the TH universe. (I.e. don't get rid of any actual
gameplay logic / balance, just change names and icons to fit better).
Silly item list (using the translated names from touhou wiki, everything with a star
has a suggested replacement so far):
- Jiao Shao's Mask *
- Tacticus *
- Brother Sharp *
- Go home and get married *
- Green Dam Youth Escort *
- Internet Addiction Eliminator (IAE) *
- 3D Escapade *
- Newbie Detector B *
- HJ's Bug *
- Xiao Yushen's Adamantine *
- You sure that's enough Armor? *
- Red Llama *
- Green Llama *
- Blue Llama
- God's Right Hand *
- Wooden Stool
- Concordia *
- Gum *
- Yuri/Lily *
Those are the most silly items. Suppose all of these managed to be replaced. Then we can repeat
our procedure for the items that now seem silly, iteratively, until there are only in-universe things left.
For example, the second round might pick out:
- ZUN's glasses *
- Recipe of Oz *
- Paper mask *
- Sin Pouch *
- Tiny Scissors *
- Small Hammer *
- Little Screwdriver *
- Birdy *
So, what to replace the items with? There are quite a few touhou items not yet in the game. Why not see if
some of these can be introduced instead of the silly items, which seem like temporary placeholders.
Walking through the touhou games from 6 to 14, we have the following things that don't
have an equivalent in DOTS, that could be an inspiration for new items.
Touhou chars who already have their signature item(s) in are not listed. When I couldn't think of
something to replace, I listed a dota item which it could copy instead (one which isnt' in the map yet),
or it says ??? which means unclear:
Series
Character
Item Replaces (suggested dota equivalent)
PC-98 games
Mima
Lunar staff ???
Alice
Forbidden Grimoire ???
6 (Embodiment of Scarlet Devil -- EOSD)
Koakuma / Remi / Flan
Devil's soft shoes OR Red Llama
Bat Wings Red Llama
Sakuya / Marisa
Apron Sin Pouch
7 (Perfect Cherry Blossom -- PCB)
Generic
Cherry blossom (Tango)
Prismrivers
Ghostly Trumpet ???
Ghostly Keyboard ???
Youmu
Roukanken (Sange)
Hakurouken (Yasha)
(both) (Sange & Yasha)
Ran
Fried tofu ???
7.5 ()
Suika
Oni Chains Yuri/Lily
8 (Imperishable Night -- IN)
Generic
Time orb ???
Rabbit ears Recipe of Oz, switch with basics of wind magic.
(so we have two kinds of ears as +6 items)
Mystia
Grilled Lamprey Eel ??? [one of the foodstuffs]
Tewi
Rice mashing mallet Small hammer
Reisen
Lunatic red gun Internet Addiction Eliminator
Kaguya
Five Impossible Requests ???
9 (Phantasmagoria of Flower View -- PoFV)
{Everything seems to be in from this game}
10 (Mountain of Faith -- MoF)
Nitori
Kappa cloak generator (Shadow Blade / Lothar's)
Momiji
Tengu Shield You sure that's enough armor
Tengu Sword Paper mask
Momiji/Aya
Tengu Sandals Green Llama
Kanako
Magic Mirror Birdy
Suwako / Ichirin
Golden Ring Jiao Shao's Mask
10.5 (Scarlet Weather Rhapsody)
Tenshi Hinanawi
Hisou Sword God's Right Hand (Reaver)
11 (Subterranean Animism -- SA)
Kisume
Bucket ???
Orin / Rin Kaenbyou
Hellcart Newbie detector B [Summon ghost fairies instead]
12 (Undefined Fantastic Object -- UFO)
Nazrin
Dowsing Rod ???
Toramaru Shou
Polearm Tiny scissors
Hijiri Byakuren
Sorcerer's Scroll Go home and get married (sheepstick)
Nue Houjuu
Trident Tiny Screwdriver
UFO ???
13 (Ten Desires -- TD)
Yoshika Miyako
Zombie Amulet Tacticus (Heart of Tarrasque)
Seiga Kaku
Ghostly hairpin 3D escapade
Mononobe no Futo
Enchanted Plates ???
Toyosatomimi no Miko
Headphones ???
Shichi-sei Sword Brother Sharp
14 (Double Dealing Character -- DDC)
Shinmyoumaru Sukuna
Miracle Mallet Lunar weapon
Raiko Horikawa
Taiko Drums Green Dam Youth Escort
Mamizou Futawa
Notebook ???
Other official works
Forbidden Scrollery
Necronomicon /Demon (oni) Book Concordia
GENERIC
Yokai Cape Zun's Glasses
Fairy wings Blue Llama
Frilly dress Recipe: Birdy, Gum, Fruit basket. Replace HJ's Bug
Frilly garments Recipe: Frilly dress + ZUN hat. Replace Adamantine
Various hats ???
Keine's Hat Green Dam Youth Escort
Hair ribbon Gum
Frog hat ???
Tengu hat ???
Nurse hat ???
Some notes:
Of the items left with question marks, it would be especially nice to somehow
get the Dowsing rod, Headphones, and UFO in there, as these are prominently
featured on the relevant character(s). In general it would be adviseable to have more
'major' items in Gensokyo as the final items in the buy chain, or those items with actives / auras.
This improves the immersion factor as these items are then also more 'notable' in this game. For example
the onbashira feature more prominently in the design of Kanako than her mirror, and the former
should be a final / complex item while the latter is not.
We can replace the Llamas either by actual boots (like is common in DoTA, although for consistency's sake
this means also replacing the magic broom with boots and having this item become something else (a force
staff like thing maybe, like marisa uses in the fighters?). The alternative would be replacing the Llamas
by various flying implements, such as fairy wings, bat wings, (etc). Unfortunately this alternative would
then question what to do with the phoenix wings. It would be nice for the mod if there was a
consistent set of 'boots' equivalents. Another option is to use various 'hats' as boots, which would allow
various 'wings' to replace the current 'hats' as HP/MP items.
Seiga can pass through walls. It would make sense to give her item the ethereal modifier.
Another alternative is to include one more Yuyuko-themed item and give it to that.
Since Roukanken is the Youkai sword, so it makes sense to have this sword focus around strength.
The Yokai cape is a reference to capes used by Sekibanki, Utsuho, Miko, and others.
The upgrades for the ZUN hat (the BUG and adamantine) might possibly become more elaborate hats.
The frilly dress / garments suggestion is also a good solution, though it means swapping some recipes
around for it to make some more sense.
There's no item to cut down trees like the Quelling blade. Of course a 'chensaw' would do the trick but
that would commit the same fallacy the items that are removed here are doing only in English. There are
no replacements for the blue llama and wooden stool yet. Maybe some shuffling around might have those
included...
Helepolis:
--- Quote from: Aphid_MOTK on October 05, 2014, 02:34:26 PM ---A lot of the items in DoTS are based on touhou directly, but there are
quite a few that I would label as 'silly', based around internet memes, or word jokes. They seem
more like placeholders for 'real items' where the real item simply hasn't been thought of yet.
They ruin the 'immersion factor' for me, brother sharp is some random real person,
--- End quote ---
Hey, Smoking Dude item is quite awesome and has useful attributes. And it isn't really a random dude yo. In fact it is a famous person. His nick name is actually Brother Sharp.
Rest is honestly TL DR for me because I prefer to see Game Balance over Item names. You know, that some girls don't become stupidly overpowered (which some truly are).
--- Quote from: Aphid_MOTK on October 05, 2014, 02:34:26 PM ---what's that got to do with Touhou and Gensoukyou?
--- End quote ---
Nothing. The point is the developers added both fun (El Shaddai) and "plausible" items (Peach, Yatakarasu,etc). to make the game fun. This is about having fun and not taking it too seriously.
PS:
--- Quote from: Aphid_MOTK on October 05, 2014, 02:34:26 PM ---I want to create a proposal with the help of others to fill the gaps, and submit this as a suggestion
to the developers, so the silly items can get replaced by touhou ones.
--- End quote ---
DotS2 got released so I highly doubt DotS is subject to development, since the original lead dev got booted out for turning the game into League of Maidens (0.977+).
PX:
Are you saying QBs aren't the best item ever? Get out >:(
FFMaster:
That's all fine and dandy, but of all the things you forget to mention, you forget about PAD and the metallic bra and such items? These are also injokes and have as much to do with "immersion" as the other items. Sure, they may be jokes about the Touhou universe or rather, ZUN's art, but they have no meaning at all to the canonical story of the series. Fun fact: I've noticed that Meiling is actually named China in the game.
Since you also mentioned Dota, I'll be quick to point out that it has a billion outside world references too. Itemwise, I can quickly name Guinsoo's Scythe of Vyse and Eul's Scepter of Divinity. These names have about as much meaning as HJ's Bug, who is iirc a DotS developer (at the very least, he made the imba version). As far as hero names go, that gets even worse. Referencing famous people (Clinkz Eastwood, Jackie Chen) to pro players (Merlini, X!!, qwerty-) to brand names (Gilette) or just plain silly (Weird Ball). I can go on even further, but referencing things in the real world isn't a bad thing.
DotS may have gone way off the scale in terms of silliness, but I would rather put it as low priority compared to complete unbalance that it has.
Just as curiosity, what about hero skills and stuff? For example, pretty much all of Cirno's abilities reference the number 9, like her intelligence value. Another easy example is the HELP ME EIRIN skill from Kaguya. There are plenty of other skills that also have said silliness to them. Would you remove them and replace with new skills?
Captain Infinity:
tl;dr
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