Touhou 13 trial gameplay

[Naut]

Is it just me, or are the hitboxes for all non-Reimu characters smaller than in past games? When I look at the dodges I make during Yoshika's second spell card, especially at 11:54, I feel like I'm playing Reimu instead of fatty Marisa. Could it be ZUN finally removed hitbox differences? :O

All hitboxes have been reduced by 0.5 pixels, including bullets and players.

Why does ZUN keep increasing the difficulty level? This is far harder than PCB.

PCB is the easiest, ignoring MoF bomb spam.

[AJS]

Funny that Zun said that he would try to have simpler mechanics this time around.
In my opinion UFO's mechanics were simpler.

I actually find these mechanics far simpler.

In UFO, the strategy was to collect UFO's of the color you want, depending on what you're aiming at.  Now, my strategy is just rush up and collect everything. :3  No thinking necessary.  And at least the bosses have the courtesy to pause just long enough between attacks to give you time to rush up and circle around them (even with slow Reimu) to collect all the goodies they drop.

[NEETori]

PCB is the easiest, ignoring MoF bomb spam.

I dunno, IN competes for easiest too.

I'm so used to (attempting to) deathbomb, that I need to readjust my habits for the trance gauge. 

[Naut]

Now, my strategy is just rush up and collect everything. :3  No thinking necessary.

This is why this system is garbage, there is no strategy in item collection, no payoff for focusing on one thing over another. A player going for score in this game will have more lives to play with than anybody else, since the game rewards good players with lives and bombs and bad players with nothing. No really -- not only do you have to be incredibly risky and rush to the top of the stage for everything useful, the game straight up rewards memorization by having half of the stage-based life-giving enemies sealed unless you speed-kill the enemies immediately before them. Which nobody going for a vanilla 1cc is going to do. Speed killing, if anything, should only give points. Good players should have to make do with minimal resources while bad players given the life and bomb handouts, not "good players who are going for score get even more hand-outs and the bad players should be left with nothing!!!!!" This is why the UFO system is amazing, you had the choice to go for resources or score. Yeah, you could argue that the TD system basically makes you shit your resources trying to point blank everything, but then there's just less stuff to dodge for good players since they basically have to bomb/trance x spell or non-card, which a casual player wouldn't do (and definitely shouldn't have to). Meaning the score-runner dodges half the usual shit a casual player would, and it's rewarding him memorizing these key scoring points rather than his dodging skill (this is not to be confused with the memorization of graze points and stuff like in SA, where your dodging skill is still heavily tested even though you have these key scoring points memorized, in TD you're invincibile during these portions which makes it stupid and pretty much skill-less). For some reason all the people not going for score are tested on their dodging skills while all the score people are tested on whether or not they've sunk the time in to memorizing where to bomb or hyper.

It's fucking backwards.

[Drake]

awwww somebody needs a hug

[DgBarca]

It's fucking backwards.

Hum, I will try to guess what ZUN has in mind using logic, this might not be successful.

Well, ZUN made normal mode easier : As a Normal/Hard player, I can say that he did.
However, the new system is rather "aggressive play" centric, which is not what you can expect from a "bad"' player. So, I guess that ZUN wants "bad" players to learn how to score...It makes me worry about the system in TH14...

And I run out of time...fff
(I like this system, it is the perfect thing I needed to improve)And I will totally hide the fact that I play this demo on hard mode (But it is only 3 stages))

[shadowbringer]

I thought players would focus more on increasing base point item value at the first stages (or even at the mid of the game), at the expense of resources (lives, too), and then play with more risk and more rewards on the latter ones?

Also, enemy placement memorization was always an issue with Touhou windows shmups (except for PoFV and the photography games), especially more on other games since you have to know which enemies you have to graze on other games, rather than speedkilling some of the non-grazeworthy ones. At least I can see less cases of one player point-blanking for graze, which is a good thing.

About UFO, it's not a system where you improvise and get a good score, here at least you don't seem to get penalized as much. (dunno if the final version will be like this, though)

I say that getting double break at some places in CC is more difficult (for example, the first stage ones) than getting full hyper at some places in TDs..

[Sapz]

Delicious Naut memorage

So far, I'm enjoying it a lot. I'd disagree with the notion that the players going for score will have a lot more resources than newer players, though - given how many life pieces it takes to get the later lives, I can't really imagine scoreplayers being ahead by more than maybe a single life, which will likely be suicided away at some point anyway for the extra hyper. It appears that the majority of life pieces appear after boss spellcards, which can be easily collected by a quick circle around the boss after the card ends, so they'll easily be available to most players - I imagine survival players would also try to time their hypers for sections with a lot of life pieces rather than bpv spirits, which would surely make up for the few they may have missed beforehand. Aside from that though, I'd agree that ZUN has really given the advantage here to those who try to work the system to a degree rather than just dodge bullets from the bottom of the screen, as could be done in the previous games largely without exception (although maybe UFO chasing was a forerunner of this?) - it seems like a 'guys, stop ignoring the scoring system' sign. :V

The shift in emphasis to aggressive pointblanking rather than grazing bullet-heavy patterns is quite a change, but it still seems fun regardless - it's simply ZUN trying something different, which he seems to have been doing a lot lately. The speedkill mechanics worked well for Dangun Feveron and seem (to me, at least) to be working here, but obviously it's difficult to say for certain until the main meat of the game (stage 4 onwards + Extra) is available. I'm optimistic, though.

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

Just did a second better scoring Lunatic 1cc with Reimu. Still did sucky though.

Also, Yoshika's final card feels like a joke pretty much. It just seems impossible to take it out quickly enough. Also, barely missed her first one due to timeout also, but that one should be capturable for me.

[Sapz]

Capturing that card did seem unreasonably difficult given its place in the game, though it's not a very difficult timeout. Maybe the healing speed will be toned down in the full release?

[ARF]

I'd like to see some changes made to the scoring system. It's fun to try pointblanking, and I like what I've seen people do with that, for example on Yuyuko's last card on Hard/Lunatic. I hope score runners will have to dodge like that and bombing for score gets toned down in the final version.

I'm not sure what to think of hyper mode. I'd rather have deathbombing, but maybe it'll be made more interesting somehow.

The danmaku on normal is about equal to MoF on easy, which is a bit meh.

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

I would hope he nerfs the healing on it as well.

Also hope that this doesn't affect a path split or something.

[NEETori]

I just noticed bosses spit out spirits like crazy when you sit on top of them during hyper mode. 
Yeap.  Strategic suiciding is probably going to be huge in this game for score. 

Is it just me or is Yuyuko's first card hard to do up close?  I just sit near the mid-bottom area and stream it

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

The card does look static, so maybe once Spell Practice is available, someone will probably find some way to point blank her during the entire attack.

[sumisumi]

PCB is the easiest, ignoring MoF bomb spam.

In my opinion it's the hardest in the first three windows games.

Capturing that card did seem unreasonably difficult given its place in the game, though it's not a very difficult timeout. Maybe the healing speed will be toned down in the full release?

It better be.


As for the scoring system... for survival, you could just fine without it so far.  Normal mode is so easy, anyways, that most people could beat it without any extra resources at all.

EDIT: Also, new news (or not)

I cleared Yoshika's final card as she was absorbing spirits and the game crashed on me.  It really sucked too, since it was my first no deaths hard mode run with Youmu and now I don't even have a replay of it. v_v  (I even captured her first card.)

Anyways, that's another glitch that the game has.  Zun better fix it for the full release.

[ふねん1]

The card does look static, so maybe once Spell Practice is available, someone will probably find some way to point blank her during the entire attack.

Considering that the blue butterflies are way too close together and that all the aimed red ones would create a jumbled mess at the center, I don't think it's likely. I'd just settle for filling (or getting very close to filling) the Trance meter by the time the first wave of that card comes out, then Trance the next nonspell. That's given me the best results.

Does anyone else notice that gray spirits seem to act like extra Point items alongside their greater Trance refilling effect? Not sure if this has been mentioned anywhere, though I haven't seen it brought up yet.

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

Maybe that too.

I sure can't wait to see the TAS runs on this one though.

Also, the stage 2 boss and midboss keeps fucking up my runs. I want to at least get a Lunatic run where I don't die until Yoshika, preferably not bomb till then too.

[Drake]

They are point items at max value no matter their screen position, yes.

[ふねん1]

Cool. Unless I'm somehow missing something, it's not on the Wiki yet. Might as well add it. I can definitely see a focus toward getting lots of gray spirits, essentially a chaining mechanic, for scorerunners once the full game is released.

While I haven't tried other characters as much, I'm finding Reimu's homing amulets to be very useful given how the scoring system seems to work. Being able to kill enemies from across the screen is great for keeping up gray spirit chains, netting you a lot more points than you would otherwise (we're bound to see this more in the late game though). It's also important for netting that second Trance by the end of Yuyuko's first card, although I haven't tested out this idea I have that would justify using said Trance on her second nonspell instead of at any other point in the fight (another effect better seen in like Stage 5 or 6 as opposed to the trial).

EDIT: Seems my idea is quite profitable. The second Trance on Yuyuko's second nonspell is pretty much solidified at this point.

[かけふみ]

Have to agree with Naut on this one. Problem mainly lies with the stage portion. For something that is an integral part of the game, it is just waaaaaaaay too hard to get the white spirits and getting Trance. I'd rather the mooks spawn blue spirits if killed fast, and white spirits when killed slow. I find myself trying to memorize the stage ASAP. To compensate I wouldn't have any problem with a much lower Trance duration.

Also its hard to collect the spirits that Miyako is spawning, even if I get really close because gravity doesn't work once she starts sucking em in. Hopefully the character's gravity will overtake Miyako's in priority.

Also, I feel like there is very very few red spirits, while noting and referencing the system mechanics. o_o Esp since trance (to multiply its value) is already so hard to get.
Edit: Just realized you need to speedkill for the red spirits. So thats why Im getting so few... despite trying to memorize. D: This is no good.

All in all wonderful idea and concept that has a lot of potential. But the execution...

[AJS]

This is why this system is garbage, there is no strategy in item collection, no payoff for focusing on one thing over another. A player going for score in this game will have more lives to play with than anybody else, since the game rewards good players with lives and bombs and bad players with nothing. No really -- not only do you have to be incredibly risky and rush to the top of the stage for everything useful, the game straight up rewards memorization by having half of the stage-based life-giving enemies sealed unless you speed-kill the enemies immediately before them. Which nobody going for a vanilla 1cc is going to do. Speed killing, if anything, should only give points. Good players should have to make do with minimal resources while bad players given the life and bomb handouts, not "good players who are going for score get even more hand-outs and the bad players should be left with nothing!!!!!" This is why the UFO system is amazing, you had the choice to go for resources or score. Yeah, you could argue that the TD system basically makes you shit your resources trying to point blank everything, but then there's just less stuff to dodge for good players since they basically have to bomb/trance x spell or non-card, which a casual player wouldn't do (and definitely shouldn't have to). Meaning the score-runner dodges half the usual shit a casual player would, and it's rewarding him memorizing these key scoring points rather than his dodging skill (this is not to be confused with the memorization of graze points and stuff like in SA, where your dodging skill is still heavily tested even though you have these key scoring points memorized, in TD you're invincibile during these portions which makes it stupid and pretty much skill-less). For some reason all the people not going for score are tested on their dodging skills while all the score people are tested on whether or not they've sunk the time in to memorizing where to bomb or hyper.

It's fucking backwards.

You do make a good point.  Though I do like the fact that now you can focus more on danmaku dodging  than trying to collect differently-colored UFO's, it annoys me that the spirits often like to situate themselves ALL THE WAY AT THE TOP, forcing either a suicidal dive into bullets or a bomb/trance to collect valuable spirits before they disappear (i.e. Stage 3, when those fairies that shoot spiraling bullet trails start dropping green spirits, where if you take too long to wade through the bullet storm, they'll disappear).

Perhaps it'd be nicer if the spirits could float down a little bit before disappearing, if the distance you need to be from them to collect them was larger, or if they lasted longer, allowing you to wait until a quiet spot to rush up and grab them.

But of course, once again, this is a trial, and there is still much tweaking to be done. *shrugs*  Hopefully, ZUN will take all the criticism to heart and make some changes for the better before the full release.

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

I think the whole pointblanking and speedkilling thing would work better if he increased all the characters unfocused movement speeds.

Also, manually being able to go into trance would be nice to get rid of the suicide to go into autotrance thing. I don't even like the autotrance either, especially since it disables deathbombs.

[Garlyle]

Also, manually being able to go into trance would be nice to get rid of the suicide to go into autotrance thing.

Do people never actually go to look at the gameplay segment on the wiki... or open the controls or something?  I've just seen so many people act like there isn't a manually trance since this game came out @_@

Hitting "C" will manually activate Trance mode if your spirit gauge is full.

[Chaotic Phoenixma]

Oh, I know about that as I use it on Stage 1 midboss and a few spots. Just mean before it's full but get rid of the autotrance thing.

[ふねん1]

Edit: Just realized you need to speedkill for the red spirits. So thats why Im getting so few... despite trying to memorize. D: This is no good.

Just save a hyper for the parts where bomb/life part fairies come up, or barring that, use a bomb to do the same job (although you don't get the double bonus obviously). Regarding the red spirits, you get more a life's worth from midbosses/Spellcards alone, meaning that you even have room to time out Yoshika's first two cards. Add to that using at least one hyper to speedkill the appropriate fairies, and you have even more breathing room. The second life requires a lot of work to get, but do to that cushioning for the first, you don't really have to go too crazy if you want to play it safe.

You do make a good point.  Though I do like the fact that now you can focus more on danmaku dodging  than trying to collect differently-colored UFO's, it annoys me that the spirits often like to situate themselves ALL THE WAY AT THE TOP, forcing either a suicidal dive into bullets or a bomb/trance to collect valuable spirits before they disappear (i.e. Stage 3, when those fairies that shoot spiraling bullet trails start dropping green spirits, where if you take too long to wade through the bullet storm, they'll disappear).

The spirits tend to be that high because, well, that's where the enemies that spawn them usually are. It's more a side effect of something else, though I can see where you're coming from. Aside from maybe chaining gray spirits, finding ways to minimize risk while collecting spirits at the top is perhaps the greatest challenge a scorerunner has to face (one of the reasons I'm liking Reimu so much). And fortunately for those going for survival, it's almost completely optional unlike the UFOs were (only exception is red/green spirits in the stage portions, though a bomb/hyper can fix that, and unlike UFO you get both colors on bosses to compensate). And before someone goes "oh but if I'm not collecting gray spirits I won't have any hypers to use", adopt that same strategy from UFO where you only go up when the coast is clear - enemies in this trial seem to be designed to start firing a bit later than normal, most likely part of the speedkilling aspect ZUN wanted to implement. Take advantage of that. Also, you get plenty of grays from shotgunning bosses and clearing their Spellcards, so you can get hypers there for extra bomb/life parts and a free pass through a troublesome attack of your choice. Think about it.

Oh, I know about that as I use it on Stage 1 midboss and a few spots. Just mean before it's full but get rid of the autotrance thing.

I feel like that would make the game a bit too easy, what with being able to control invincibility periods that might be almost as plentiful as PCB's borders. Don't quote me on this though, I haven't tested anything like that yet.

[J.O.B]

When I am playing Miyako's last card i just dodge through the bullets run between the lasers and circle around her trying to get the spirits and then drop back down and do it again.

[Agent of the BSoD]

5. The artwork looks better I guess then before, don't know why I am mentioning this at all but still...

wut

I thought the artwork was worse. Especially Sanae, she has less detail than her original appearance. Though the clothes on the others were pretty good.

[NEETori]

Actually, I like the detailing in her hair.  Her clothes may not be as fancy as before, but the facial expressions are pretty good.

Although personally, I thought PoFV and IN art wasn't bad.

Hit C to manual trance?
Does that instafail spell cards?

[かけふみ]

Regarding the red spirits, you get more a life's worth from midbosses/Spellcards alone, meaning that you even have room to time out Yoshika's first two cards. Add to that using at least one hyper to speedkill the appropriate fairies, and you have even more breathing room. The second life requires a lot of work to get, but do to that cushioning for the first, you don't really have to go too crazy if you want to play it safe.

Valid strat, but my question is how many lives-per-stage do you estimate one would get if they optimized and did like that? I remember only getting ONE by the end of stage 3. In other games I would have gotten 3 or more. :/ And  then it would keep increasing from that.

Hit C to manual trance?
Does that instafail spell cards?

Yes -_- sadly. Casting it is as if you 'died', except that you dont lose a life. So if you cast Trance with C and THEN enter a spellcard... it instafails the card.

[Dr.Strafe]

I'd prefer the ability to fire a manual trance starting with one soul, rather than waiting for three. Similar to Cirno being able to freeze bullets starting at 30%. I'd also like to remove the auto-trance upon dying, as to cut down on the confusion of whether you can deathbomb or not.

Then there's the balance of life/bomb parts. So we need to collect 10 of each... I was under the impression that the pieces would be more plentiful to balance the higher quota. I'm finding that they're quite rare. Am I missing out on some gimmick to have the enemies drop more of them?

Getting extra lives was far easier in the previous two games. Hell, even acquiring Motivation in FW was more profitable.

I like the game. It shows a lot of potential, but it would be nice to have the enemies drop more variety of the souls.

Edit: Disregard. Replays by Naut and Baity have enlightened me on what I'm doing wrong.