Moriya Shrine Revolution Mafia - Game Over!

[Ouja]

WARNING: SAKI'S PLAYER RAMBLES ON, WALL OF TEXT (I'm even trying to be concise!)

OK, finally read Shannon's post in its entiriety. The post doesn't have any fluff or much roleplay to it (trust me on the latter), so it's a lot of opinions and relevant stuff. There's more disagreements vis-a-vis playstyle but honestly, it looks like everyone's playstyle here differs from my usual modus operandi massively so I'm going to stop using that as an excuse.

I immediately (belatedly) disagree with Shannon's "majority for lynch is always good" and saying that you should lynch your preferred target also for informational purposes. Uh, no. If you are sure both trains are town, do what Razeluxe did: keep off the trains. I was sure Shoe's train was rubbish and I didn't want to see him lynched, and that's why I voted Gamzee. So far, happy to see better cases this Day, so D1 was just really D1.

As for now, I'm finding Shannon troublesome because she keeps insisting her vote on Gamzee, motivated by "majority lynch", just seems downright odd now that Gamzee has flipped Scum. It'd look like Town derping it up if Gamzee flipped Town, but it looks really weird now that Gamzee is Scum. Do I want to lynch her? No, not immediately.

Sandor, who was my prime target today, has... shaped up. I'm not entirely sure where I stand on him yet. At one hand I definitely think the attack on Shoe was terrible, but most everyone's was at that point, including Evangeline's. His attack on Steven reeks of attacking the easiest target, as Shoe was D1 (entire case was derp so why not add more derp?), but it's easily one of the more pronounced ones on Steven. The other hand thinks that it's understandable to vote Shoe if you get the train of thought for all that I disagree with it; I see how you arrived at the idea but I think it's wrong. Hrng. I think I'll let it slide for now until he does other weird stuff.

@Steven:

However, I didn't bring it up because I didn't feel too confident about this, and I was hoping to pursue this today as Mr. MacStew was going to do. His death overnight came as a surprise, given that it was his words that I was focusing on.

Why are you surprised someone who you feel was clear and understandable died? Those are some of the biggest threats for scum, I think. Why do you think it's necessary to state just how important McStew was to you?

Why would you express surprise at McStew dying? It's logical to me. He seemed pretty smart, had an idea of what was going on and was definitely not one of the derpy players at D1.

For that matter Steven, how are you "taking a risk" by voting Evangeline? Why do you feel the need to highlight the similarities for why people vote Clegane and why we could vote you?


Definitely not too happy with Sailor Moon much either. Drops the vote on Mason, then talks about how Sandor-looks-bad-but-I-don't-want-to-lynch... OK, so who do you want to lynch right here, right now, given the power? I disagree that votes are everything, I want stated intent, too, so give it to us straight now.

OK, so like D1 this is just awesome and there's so many avenues to pursue I don't know where to begin. I... think I want to begin here.

##UNVOTE:
##VOTE: Stone Mason

I want you to post more, Stone Mason, and address the issues others raised. I want more information out of this lot because there's too much lurking going on and we need to get on the ball here. The lurk hurts town and I will vote who hurts town.

Gonna reread Shannon and Razeluxe as it seems they're interesting today too, but I probably won't want to vote Razeluxe, I think. He hasn't been as offensive as people claim he's been: the only thing I recall of D1 that was particularly annoying was his "I haven't read the last two pages, and I doubt there's anything there to make me swing my vote", because no, Raze, voteswings in the last posts is actually reasonable and you should read everything. I'd have accepted a "I can't be arsed, I'm too busy with life", but not "I'm keeping my vote where is; I haven't read beyond that but it's scummiest so far, convince me otherwise". Don't let others direct your vote.

[Kiva-la]

Just occurred to me (and reading Saki's latest post, has been confirmed) that I haven't actually explained myself for the whole "convince me otherwise" thing. I was not about to let others direct my vote, merely hoping someone would make a tl;dr of the cases against Shoe and Gamzee so I could understand why they were apparently vote-worthy. Should've just asked for that, though, as opposed to attempting to bait someone into it. Personal derp, there. Anyway, night.

[Ryuki]

I don't regard Gamzee outing Steven as a noob to be a valid basis for deriving him as scum. I was the first person to sign up for the game (submitted my role to Suwako months ago), the signups are in chronological order as far as I can tell. It ws blurted elsewhere that the person behind Steven would be playing and he had no idea of how to play. Basically a whole lot of people knew who he was and that he was new.  You're really making some huge stretches to say that Steven's day end actions were because of Gamzee's coaching.

Where is this elsewhere? I'm looking from the signup list on and not seeing a thing. And like I said, it's a possibility. It could have been a coincidence that Gamzee used words to imply that he knew Steven was new, or just happened to know from the getgo somehow.

It doesn't 'out' him by any means, but it's another thing that adds to his case. It still remains that a number of people have dismissed reads on him as nulltells due to noob/derptown, and he's taken actions that are suspect. ScumSteven fits with Gamzee's M.O., and it's a perfectly viable strategy to use noobness to enhance credibility and excuse suspicious actions. It's not a stretch by any means.

[Suwako Moriya]

Vote Chart
 
Miyako Miyamura (1): Silver Medal
Shannon (3): Evangeline A.K. McDowell, Miyako Miyamura, Razeluxe Meitzan, Stuff Man
John McClane (1): Stone Mason
Sandor Clegane (2): Saki Marimi, Shannon, Shoe, Evangeline A.K. McDowell
Stone Mason (2): Sailor Moon, Saki Marimi
Razeluxe Meitzen (1): John McClane
Evangeline A.K. McDowell (1): Steven Stone
Steven Stone (2): Sandor Clegane, Evangeline A.K. McDowell
 
No vote cast: No one!
 
12 players still alive means 7 votes will lynch, so Shannon leads at L-4. There are about 14 hours left in the day.

Miyako and Shannon will be poked for activity.

[Sasword]

On Shannon:

Shannon still does not fit very well with me, sadly.  While I guess the explanations to some of the points are plausible,the most important points, such as the voting of Sandor for his 'playstyle' vote instead of Mason for the vote against Gamzee (seemingly without reasons) still seem strangely artificial., going for the easier lynch. 

Your defense of voting for Sandor is still hypocritical and not-to-the-point, as others have pointed out (why did you bandwagon Gamzee even after thinking him town if that is the case, if you don't scumhunt by bandwagoning?)  The other half of voting Sandor only after the votes between Gamzee and Shoe were 4-4 still stands as seemingly like an attempt to sway things away from Gamzee without U-turning against Shoe.  This, coupled with you not voting Stone Mason for voting Gamzee (whom you protected here, in greater detail than Shoe even),  is the scummiest thing I've seen so far.

---

Furthermore, the cases you launched over three of the easiest targets are interesting in a bad way.  This one especially.

B.) voting with no reason will make them stand out, and people are more likely to look at baseless votes than votes with bad reasoning (just compare Mr. Mason and Mr. Clegane).

So... since more people are looking at Mr. Mason he's... less scummy than Sandor?  What?  Why are you judging people's scuminess by the number of people looking at a specific person in this game only?  And it would be very hard to persuade me that more people looked at Mason as potential scum yesterday for his 'no reason' vote on Gamzee than say, Evangeline and Sandor (as Shoe could tell you).

All the other cases have so many words on bad reasoning, but those words have bad logic in themselves too.  Furthermore, they are all on rather easy lynches, so here is live scum intent, as compared to the votes by Stuffman and Steven, which focused more on obscure lynches for honest mistakes, which do not point towards any scum intent.  Thus my vote on Shannon still stays.

---

@Sailor Moon:

Of the other cases, I don't have much time to catch up on them.  Will read up on them later, though I agree with Raz on Sailor Moon due to her vote on Gamzee, which looks more and more weird as I read it.  What kind of scumtells would you consider to override good stuff in determining the scuminess of a person, Sailor Moon?  The fact that you did not elaborate it yesterday makes it seem as if that vote was a little forced.

[DiEnd]

she seems to be the first one to point out Shoe's towniness and seems to be able to tell who has the account, despite them falling into a "MotK tradition of ultimately lynching derptown

If you know who Shoe is, suddenly her being so... well, Shoe, doesn't look anywhere near as terrible. And to be honest, it's kind of hard to not notice if you know about the person. (It's a character associated with said person, Shoe has referred to the wagon on herself multiple times with a word associated with her, and the playstyle is really really just, well, said person.) I'm not spelling it out because I'd assume that falls under the category of "Being Lame".

And lynching for bad play instead of scumminess really does seem to be MotK tradition >_>;

Definitely not too happy with Sailor Moon much either. Drops the vote on Mason, then talks about how Sandor-looks-bad-but-I-don't-want-to-lynch... OK, so who do you want to lynch right here, right now, given the power? I disagree that votes are everything, I want stated intent, too, so give it to us straight now.

I think you majorly misread one of my posts? Huh? Mmk, here's the post I assume you're talking about. I never dropped the vote on Mason, and I never said I didn't want to lynch Sandor, so I assume you just made a big derp here or something. Simply said I could see him being town now, but I ALSO said I still find him scummiest. 

The one I said I was feeling wonky about wanting to lynch was Mason, due to him being the swing vote; but damn if he isn't not helping make himself look worse. Votes McClane out of nowhere at D2 start, several people ask him about said vote and when he posts he doesn't mention it at all, and that's on top of his reasonless ^{(Just "I want to pressure" which is never followed up)} vote on Gamzee and lurking in D1, which only goes in his favor because Gamzee was scum; which, while being a strong thing towards being a townie, everything else about him just reeks.

You want to know who I'd lynch right now, given the power? Mason or Sandor. Previously I was leaning much more towards Sandor, not entirely sure now that I thought about Mason more.

I notice several people talking about Steven. Some great points have been brought up, and I realize that it was wrong of me to give him a townie pass just for being a nub. That said, unfortunately, dumbtown is capable of doing basically everything and as such everything could be considered nulltells, so he's not my favorite pick; but even if he's not scum, at least we wouldn't have to worry about him doing something stupid or being mislead by scum in LyLo. I'm okay with a lynch on him, but I'd much rather have Sandor or Mason today.

Ninja'd by Miyako.

What kind of scumtells would you consider to override good stuff in determining the scuminess of a person, Sailor Moon?

Scum can make good points, too. But town is less likely to fabricate things, for example, Gamzee exaggerating Shoe's fluffiness to make it sound scummy. Jumping onto the growing Shoe wagon is also suspicious; not that town can't do it, but scum would be more motivated to, and said fluff exaggeration to make the bandwagon vote seem better is not something I'd see town even thinking they'd maybe should do when it's still only Page 2, ED1.

The fact that you did not elaborate it yesterday makes it seem as if that vote was a little forced.

No one asked or expressed any discontent with my vote, and the wagon on Gamzee grew steadily, so I didn't see a need to elaborate further.

[Punch Hopper]

The Stone Mason case doesn't appeal to me. However, I will admit Evagaline and Sandor's arguments for Steven are...rather convincing. Objectively, his timing reads as scummy. I will have to think on this.

Anyway, a couple quibbling points. I think that it could be reasonably expected from my confirm post that the character I was playing was going to be...irritating. Irritating people have a habit of getting lynched around here. I think that the wagon on me could have been scum motivated by the perception I'd get a lot of hate for being insufferable. As others have said, the attacks I made on others made me a lot more suspect, and I get the feeling scum capitalized on this. Anyway, that's why I'm convinced my wagon was scum motivated, as opposed to just being a quick early D1 wagon.

Also, Stone, why aren't you elaborating on the McLane vote. It seemed odd I didn't remember you doing so, and the fact that Sailor Moon observes this in the next post certainly solidifies my memory of the event. Why are you so reluctant to provide reasoning? Your swing vote cred will only go so far.

Anyway, Evangaline, this actually is a pretty good chain of events as far as I can tell. Steven kinda reeked new from what I remember so the gamzee tell might be a little bit of a stretch, but I am sufficiently convinced to reread Steven Stone after I catch up.

Anyway, Sandor post. I disagree that wagon based scum narrowing is a bad idea. I think that, if it objectively seems like you can find a scum in a group of people, it is very good to use that group of people as a narrowing focus so you can discern the sheep from the wolves easier. On the other hand, you should avoid tunneling because you might miss the scum in front of you if they aren't in the "group" you're focusing on. Either way, just a theory disagreement I think. Now, the VAGUENESS involved in Razel's post does not come off well. I don't think he provided a reason for scum to be on either wagon, whereas I like to think I have when I've used wagon based scumhunting this game. (If I have not, I apologize and will cite my thought process if necessary)

I don't believe I have any issues with the rest of your post.

@Razel: Understood about Miyako.

I think I'm glazing over posts at this time. I read them once and am rereading as I go through but don't really remember anything standing out. Sorry I don't have a more full catch up post but it seems that quite a few of us, me included, have a bit of problem with conciseness ;.

Anyway, when my eyes recover I'll look at Steven Stone. I'll note we have about 12 hours left in the day, and as far as I know I AM looking at the right time now. If I end up voting Steven, it will be a swing against Shannon and Sandor. Just noting that.

Cuts:
@Moon: Actually, anything like that in your meta paragraph has actually been a coincidence, but one I noted with giggles. Anyway, I mostly agree with the sentiment of your post, but I think a reread of Steven Stone would be meet at this time.

@Miyako: You produce a compelling reason to vote Shannon as well, since that strongly benefits scum in the way you outlined. But I must admit, you people are giving me too many rereads to do!

I'll try to produce my rereads within the next two hours.

[Punch Hopper]

Ah, how wonderfully convenient this format is for searching someone's posts in isolation :3c.

This is still interesting

When two individuals defend each other from accusation, it is only possible for those two to be accomplices.

It's before Gamzee defends him but it's interesting that by his own words he and Gamzee would be accomlplices.

I'll admit this is more me being silly than actually finding scumminess.

Now I'll get more serious:

This post still reads as a rolefish, just as I said before. His reluctance to vote is also noted, as it has been in the past.

Full stop. Negative swing vote. Really convoluted logic. I know the last has been addressed but that still reads as "You're loud and obnoxious, so you're scum". I mean, even Sandor stated the situation FAR more elegantly. It's a piggy back swing vote that demonstrates he doesn't even understand why he's piggybacking. I can see where this is scummy.

This is interesting. It's a slight poke of Gamzee (such as Shannon is accused of), while saying very little about why, and still forging ahead with my wagon and the weird explanation that actually now appears to boil down to Burden of Proficiency.

UGH! This post. Just, this post. It reads as a strong congnitive dissonance given the previous post. In isolation from his previous posts, it read more noob town. But reading his posts consecutively, it's absolutely silly! Further, his little speech to Gamzee feels a lot like there's more there then there should be between "two townies". But most notably? His first sentence discredits any accusation he gets against him for his post. As was said probably more succinctly by Evangaline, he basically is trying his damndest to save face, and given the relation to Gamzee, it's scum intent.

Last two posts show Steven needs to Leggo his Eggo. I'm guessing the waffling is a sign of cognitive dissonance, and if Steven DOES flip scum, I think that the cases he's waffled most on are more likely to be town.

Honestly, I'm fairly convinced of the Steven case at this point. His later posts reek of a lot of cognitive dissonance, and for the same reason that Stone Mason is more likely town, Steven Stone is more likely scum. That swing vote is bad.

Anyway, I'm going to look at Shannon now, and after that decide which to vote. Sandor has...eased my mind enough at this point so I'm willing to put him off.

[Punch Hopper]

So, you recall my theory that as soon as my confirm post, scum would realize that I would be polarizing? I think Shannon's first post could be construed as the scum side that wants to be on the support side of the pole if the against side goes wrong.

This post basically has a lot of "I don't think X is scum". Which is fine on it's own, but what's most interesting is the acknowledgement of some level of case against Makara, and even accepting it makes him look worse, but not accepting the wagon. Hindsight being 20/20, given Gamzee's flip, well...as has been said before, it looks bad. Of course also interesting is the spiel on me. At that point, I had been polarizing the situation quite powerfully, and honestly, I'm pretty sure anyone I turned on would be put in sharp relief at that point. I was being scrutinized closely. Therefore anyone I was scrutinizing would also at least be being tossed around in people's heads. Not saying my polarization was necessarily a GOOD thing, but I think that it tended to focus the storm around me. So, if you want to be a scum indirectly supporting your scumbuddy without chancing getting caught in the storm, placating the center is a good idea. Especially given the fact I've demonstrated a STRONG blindness to accusing those that agree with me. It was basically safe for her, since it kept her out of the storm while defending her scumbuddy.

I realize most of this has been said but I feel putting my thoughts out in my way will be best for transparency of how I think, as well as allowing any logic errors I've missed to be pointed out and corrected.

Anyway, moving on...oh. The EBWOP does defeat a minor point in my analysis about saying people aren't scum, etc. I'm not sure it mattered a whole lot.

Then we have the bandwagon hop reinforcing a foregone conclusion at that point. Not much to say about it. As I've said before, I VERY MUCH prefer full wagons, since I think they give more information, combined with the reasoning posts associated with the vote.

Holy God Hell this woman rivals me in terms of walls. This is about the biggest post I have ever seen, and I've written a lot of big posts in my time.

OK, trawling tiem.

OK, um...hmm. Do you still have your post that you would have posted had day not ended? I'm not sure if it'll be helpful, but it might shed more light on your intent. As I've said before, the more you post, the more info you give about yourself if people know what to look for. Anyway, acceptable explanation about me, but I still say you mostly had to pick a pole.

Well, I am guilty of the Sandor thing myself, but as I was the competing wagon, distracting from Gamzee didn't have a whole lot of benefit for me, whereas to stay consistent, it did for you.

Anyway, we have more of the one on one off logic that I agree with. The thing I want clarification on is why Gamzee can't be the only scum. I don't think he is, but I want to see your logic. Remember, Gamzee was 20% of my serious wagon (possibly 25%, we ended on four votes IIRC).

OK, honestly, I'm trying my damndest to nitpick you to bits. I want to believe you're scum. It seemed so plausible.

I can't find it though. I don't see, with my own eyes, the Shannon case after her post today. Her D1 post can be taken badly. Her explanations allow for it to be innocent and flow decently. She's not necessary obvious town at this point, but I don't feel her D1 post is completely damning.

I think I'll go with Steven.

##Unvote, ##Vote Steven Stone

Sorry about the disorganized nature of my thought processes. I am a wild mage, so you kinda make strange leaps to deal with the shape your magic takes, and this unfortunately affects reasoning as well :3c.

[Suwako Moriya]

Vote Chart
 
Miyako Miyamura (1): Silver Medal
Shannon (3): Evangeline A.K. McDowell, Miyako Miyamura, Razeluxe Meitzan, Stuff Man
John McClane (1): Stone Mason
Sandor Clegane (1): Saki Marimi, Shannon, Shoe, Evangeline A.K. McDowell
Stone Mason (2): Sailor Moon, Saki Marimi
Razeluxe Meitzen (1): John McClane
Evangeline A.K. McDowell (1): Steven Stone
Steven Stone (3): Sandor Clegane, Evangeline A.K. McDowell, Shoe
 
No vote cast: No one!
 
12 players still alive means 7 votes will lynch, so Shannon and Steven are at L-4. There are about 10 hours left in the day.

Shannon has been prodded for activity.

[Halloween Alice]

Stuffman: I thought I had been stating my opinions on Mason.  I still think he, personally, looks bad, just the placement of his vote against Gamzee makes it very hard to vote for him.

So, choice is now between Steve and Shannon, and between the two, well.  One of my primary reasons for suspecting her (Shannon)is that I refuse to believe that Scum wouldn't want to have at least one of their own on the bus if they had to lose one of their own people.  After all, might as well gain the credit, and hers is one of the few that wasn't important in some way.  Well, that, and her not saying much.

However, I think Steven looks worse.  The point about the timing of his unvote is a good one that I completely missed.  There's also the fact that at the time he credited Sangor's reasoning for being the basis of his thoughts, going so far as to mostly quote him.  While when he tried to explain his actions today, he said that Evangeline was misleading him, when he did not quote anything of hers before.  He also didn't try to make a case on anyone else, and ended the day with a vote on no one.  He also jumps very quickly between Gamzee being one of his top targets for the day and wishing him well for defending him (instead of moving his vote to one of those suspicions when he unvoted, despite noticing that not having a vote out was a bad idea).

Steve, if you have time to respond, what are your thoughts on Saki Marimi?

##Vote: Steven Stone

[Halloween Alice]

Completely forgot to unvote.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Steven Stone

[Skull]

The best thing I have against D1 McClane is here.

By taking up the list Shoe addressed to confirmed scum, you are defending confirmed scum, this could just be a legit bad call as the two of you had similar arguments 1 2. to 3 and your above posted.
Furthermore, Shoe's hypothesis of scum trying to start alternate wagons to move attention away from the hiding Gamzee seemed logical by way of confirmation bias because I was on such target train, and it was further substantiated by the flip. A lot of what you have been saying has been trying to discredit Shoe, who is likely now town, as it would be really weird for scum to start a case on scum. Honestly though, a lot of this is conditional so I am dropping the McClane case as he remains coherent, and others have looked into him as well.

##Unvote

I am really not buying the Gamzee defending scum buddy Steven. It seems stretched. Gamzee is the first the to actually say that Steve is new, but the general concensus was "Steve is derp", Gamzee had already mentioned this earlier  here, it doesn't seem like an unreasoned conclusion. As for hypothesizing what scum Gamzee was trying to do, it reads more like: Let someone town mess up, attack town attacking the town who messed up.  In that way scum is technically telling the truth which makes posting easier. Furthermore, you are changing your vote around a lot on D2. Considering Sandor has the same theory, I would like to hear how he arrived to the same conclusion.

It seems funny that both could be scum, and of the two Sandor reads a little more transparently. Additionally, a flip of Evangeline would give more relationship correlation information than Sandor. Going for unlikely lynch today.

##Vote Evangeline

One last bit, Mafia may be a game of trickery, but lying about not being able to participate much would be bad form. Confident that everyone here would be above lying about real life obligations as an excuse for not playing a game. Considering stuff like that null tells. If I'm reading the deadline correctly, I'll be working the quarry when the day ends.

Cut by McClane: That makes a lot of sense, for now I'll keep my vote here, as an unlikely Evangeline flip will tell more about Steve, as well as others. I will likely go for Steve lynch if I'm able to get on before the deadline and nothing major happens.

[Suwako Moriya]

Vote Chart
 
Miyako Miyamura (1): Silver Medal
Shannon (3): Evangeline A.K. McDowell, Miyako Miyamura, Razeluxe Meitzan, Stuff Man
John McClane (0): Stone Mason
Sandor Clegane (1): Saki Marimi, Shannon, Shoe, Evangeline A.K. McDowell
Stone Mason (2): Sailor Moon, Saki Marimi
Razeluxe Meitzen (0): John McClane
Evangeline A.K. McDowell (2): Steven Stone, Stone Mason
Steven Stone (4): Sandor Clegane, Evangeline A.K. McDowell, Shoe, John McClane
 
No vote cast: No one!
 
12 players still alive means 7 votes will lynch, so Steven leads at L-3. There are about 5 1/2 hours left in the day.

Shannon has been prodded for activity.

[Ryuki]

I am really not buying the Gamzee defending scum buddy Steven. It seems stretched. Gamzee is the first the to actually say that Steve is new, but the general concensus was "Steve is derp", Gamzee had already mentioned this earlier  here, it doesn't seem like an unreasoned conclusion. As for hypothesizing what scum Gamzee was trying to do, it reads more like: Let someone town mess up, attack town attacking the town who messed up.  In that way scum is technically telling the truth which makes posting easier. Furthermore, you are changing your vote around a lot on D2. Considering Sandor has the same theory, I would like to hear how he arrived to the same conclusion.

It's a stretch to implicate Steven based on Gamzee's actions alone, but there are still big scumtells that Steven gives off which are independent of anyone else. And if you're looking at the possibility of Steven being scum, you'll naturally look at the actions of confirmed scum and see if , and looking at Gamzee's actions in the context of Steven being scum, it makes sense. I find it unlikely that Steven's string of scumtells are just a string of coincidences (disappearing from #37 to #105 with no other explanation but an apology, with a bandwagon swinger vote onto the Shoe train no less. And then later hopping off the bandwagon once Gamzee had a clear lead.)

A nub has the same likelihood as an experienced player of ending up on either side, with the major difference being that a scum nub has potentially more experienced buddies to help him out and coach his actions. At this point I see TownSteven a much bigger stretch of the imagination than ScumSteven.

[Ryuki]

EBWOP, second sentence: "And if you're looking at the possibility of Steven being scum, you'll naturally look at the actions of confirmed scum and see if it fits. And looking at Gamzee's actions in the context of Steven being scum, it makes sense."

[Den-O]

Saki, I don't want to get bogged down in a discussion of scumhunting philosophy, but this is relevant to the Razeluxe and Shannon cases, so here goes.  You're saying that it's actually good that Razeluxe stayed off both trains, and I don't think that's good at all.  Votes are only useful as far as they have the possibility to lynch someone.  Votes on people who aren't favored as lynches are only useful because they have the possibility to become favored lynches.  A vote that can't possibly lead to a lynch is just an empty gesture whose intent can be gotten across just as well by saying you find that person scummy.  And if you think both of the trains are town, then you still should consider one of the candidates even more likely town than the other.  And if you somehow consider both candidates to be exactly equal in their likelihood to be town, which is a pretty ridiculous hypothetical in the first place, then it's still pro-town to park your vote on one, 'cause otherwise you're giving scum a proportionally greater say in which of the two gets lynched.

On the other hand, staying off all the wagons that have a shot of getting a lynch is just a way of washing your hands of the whole business and being able to claim that you didn't have anything to do with a possible mislynch.  Self-serving and anti-town, and that's scummy when it comes from players who should know better.

Sailor Moon, I also really really don't like the way that you call everything from Steven a nulltell just because he's a newb.  Bad play is pretty much a nulltell from someone who doesn't know any better, but almost swinging a bandwagon away from flipped scum is not something you can dismiss as incidental just because the player doing it is new.

Still preferring a Steven Stone lynch to a Shannon one, due to Steven Stone being much more firmly connected to Gamzee.

[Kiva-la]

Sandor: Playstyle differences here, obviously. I believe votes should show who you think is scummiest, and should never be placed on those you believe to be Town, no matter what. You believe otherwise. That's fine, let's move on, shall we?

Anyway. Have read over things, and as they stand, I... I'm not sure who of Shannon or Steven I want lynched more, today. I think Steven, though I'm quite fine with either. Hmm...Will need to think on this more, actually. Was originally gonna say Shannon, but... yeah. Ugh.

##Unvote: Shannon
##Vote: Steven Stone
##Unvote: Steven Stone

Slightly prefer Steven lynch, so will get my vote on him to show I believe him scum, but will not keep it there since I would still like to keep Shannon in the running; don't believe Steven that much scummier than her.

Will hopefully be around closer to deadline, but no promises. Miss Lily has me running all sorts of crazy errands.

[Ouja]

Oh great. Just what we needed. ANOTHER DAY where the contender for the lynch disappears. For Hard Mode? BOTH disappear.

And Stone Mason finally responds and oh man I don't have much interest right here and now to read into it.

OK, plainly? I don't know what to think. Let's take Shannon, post by post. In the very first post, she says this:

.....I also do not like the wagon forming on Mr. Makara.  He does not look good, but I find him unlikely to be a traitor.  [...] [Gamzee] is absolutely right that he and Mr. McClaine have near identical reasoning and yet no one is calling out Mr. McClaine for his, which is unsettling.

This just reinforces that she has had no reason to jump on Gamzee, as from the start she declared she found it unlikely he is scum. She also repeats his line about being like McClaine, which I don't really understand... it feels like a subtle hint to scrutinise McClaine, too. This is reinforced in the EBWOP:

Why is Mr. Makara worse than Mr. McClaine in this regard?

Her next post is the one jumping on Gamzee with the "Best to get majority for wagon analysis" reasoning which reads now as "Hey guys look I was on scum, don't forget!". She posted all of two posts in D1. Today, there's only one posts. One continues on Clegane, then she talks about StuffMan and Razeluxe. I find nothing specifically wrong with that post, and so I can't quite rhyme her completely with scum.

My suspicion on her is based completely on her insistance to have a vote on someone she thinks is town purely for the sake of achieving a majority, because it'd "give more information". I don't know what information. If you're town, you DON'T want to be on a town lynch. You want to be off it and stick on the person you think is scum, unless you have good reason to condemn that one person. Like being strongly suspicious the alternative is town. ()

And if you're voting on Town in the hopes that, maybe, just maybe, they'll flip scum and make you look better... I don't know why Town'd take such a huge risk just for that chance. I just can't see town placing a vote on Town for "information" from "train analysis", and it must be a scum ploy or some really, really, really great playstyle differences. Great. I've convinced myself.

##UNVOTE: Stone Mason
##VOTE: Shannon

As for Steven that is such a pot of hullzpullz that I still don't know what to think of it. I never knew he was a newbie and honestly can't find that information anywhere either... so unless someone talked about it offboard or in PM, I don't think it was said.

Maybe in the scum channel oh haha you!



sandor ninja, responding in next post. out this goes

[Kiva-la]

EBWOP: Slightly prefer Steven lynch because, if nothing else, it'll shed some light on Sailor Moon.

Ninja'd. Doesn't change anything for me, really. Just more of the case on Shannon, which still leaves me undecided. Blah.

[Punch Hopper]

Jumping in to

##Unvote: Shannon
##Vote: Steven Stone
##Unvote: Steven Stone

What?

What are you trying to do here?

Not much else to react to.

[Ouja]

Sandor, I'll just have to disagree with you there. I think you should only vote on someone who you think is Town if you can expect reasonable returns on it. I.e. you are so damn sure the other person is town, you could swear off eating forever if that person ISN'T town.

There was no risk of Gamzee surviving. Shoe was safe. My vote made sure of that as someone'd have to jump off Gamzee and onto Shoe to even it, and it'd need two non-Gamzees and non-Shoes to topple it AGAINST Shoe. Getting Shoe lynched that day was as difficult as parting seas with your bare hands.

Or just convince someone, but whatever.

The point is that Shannon placed an ultimately useless vote, all the while stressing the importance of wagon analysis while propagating in every post she made (2 o l o l) that Gamzee was assuredly town! Why would you do this? At the very least, Razeluxe was consistent: he said he found the cases terribad and bull, and he stayed by that conviction and never so much as lifted a finger to progress either one.

At the end of the day, if Gamzee flipped town, Razeluxe would have every right, every right to spew off a zealous crusade about scum being on Gamzee's train, trying their darndest to mislynch for the town.

But Shannon? She'd become one of the suspects.

It'd be a different case if Gamzee was obvScum or the case was really strong that you'd have to find excuses NOT to jump on either Shoe or Gamzee, but honestly both cases were bad. Really bad. Just, terribad.

tl;dr it's not good to jump on people you think is town unless you:
A) Have a pretty damn good reason to want any alternatives to survive
B) Have a pretty damn good reason to support a Town lynch

B) is either 1) you get powers from it (and then I'd Frown At You) or 2) you're scum.

Comfortable betting with B2).

[Ouja]

EBWOP: that means Razeluxe acted completely reasonable to me and I don't like condemning people because what they do is logical and reasonable and has no real merit or demerit. Isn't a tell either way, but if he'd made a sloppy excuse to jump on Gamzee you bet it'd be a tell, and not one he'd like.
Kinda the same one I hold against Shannon.

[Punch Hopper]

* Shoe derps

READING COMPREHENSION! I HAS IT!

Nevermind Razel, I just processed your next paragraph, though the vote thing still looks silly.

[Kiva-la]

Turns out I have more time than I thought before I have to go. Should be able to respond to whatever else Saki's going to post, and Shoe.

That was my way of showing where I think scum are. I'm still not confident in who I distrust more, but since it's both, I placed votes on both of them. If I could have active votes on both, I would.

Ok, ninja'd by Saki's posts. Did some re-reading of both cases while I was at it, and... I think I'm more comfortable with a Steven Stone lynch. Tipping factor is information, which I never like being a factor in votes. Which leads me back to part of why I dislike Shannon so much. Which AGH.

Personal bias has me hedging Shannon over Steven because I hate that she 'voted Gamzee for wagon analysis' stuff because GOD DAMN I hate information > scumhunting.

Logic, however, has me leaning Steven Stone because his alignment pretty much determines Sailor Moon's, for me, as she's the last person who's willing to hold being nub in his defense, near as I can tell.

This can be gleaned from other lynches, however, so I will

##Vote: Shannon

Sorry about the sloppy mess there, I post in (mostly) stream-of-consciousness, and this has been one big headache for me. Now, however, I leave before my head explodes from thinking about this more.

Ninja'd by Shoe, read beginning of this post.

[Den-O]

Saki:  After your vote, yeah, Gamzee was clinched as the lynch, and any voting at all after that was an empty gesture.  But I'm looking at Razeluxe's #145, and at that point, and I'm thinking about what scum without a vote on either wagon at the time would be thinking.  The votes were Shoe 4 and Gamzee 5.  It could have gone either way.  But if Scum-Razeluxe votes Shoe, and then later votes cause Gamzee to be lynched, then Razeluxe is going to look really really bad for an even more blatant wagon swing than Steven Stone is guilty of.  But if he votes Gamzee, then he's sealing his scumbuddy's fate when it's still possible that someone could come along and save him.  There's nothing scum-Razeluxe can do at this point but remain noncommital and express disdain for both cases, so that if Shoe gets lynched the mob will probably end up looking somewhere other than Gamzee D2.

Now, I know there's a little difference between doing what scum would do and not doing what scum wouldn't do, but the more I go over this, the more likely Razeluxe as scum looks to me.  I was halfway through this post before I stopped to think about how this fits with the idea of scum-Steven or scum-Shannon, so I'm not sure whether it's worth trying to start another train so late in the day, but I want to get this out there.

WE'VE GOT LESS THAN FOUR HOURS LEFT, SO IF WE'RE GOING TO BE CONSIDERING ANOTHER LYNCH, THIS IS THE TIME TO SAY WHERE YOU STAND!

[Decade]

I just got out of the ER.  Chances of me being able to post coherently tonight are small.  I'll try, but don't count on it.

##Unvote
##Vote Steven Stone

for reasons that should be obvious.  I'm not going to lynch myself. 

[Halloween Alice]

Well, if nothing else, the fallout from this decision will be interesting.  Four trains, and someone pushing for a fifth near deadline.

Sandor, I could be persuaded.  Raze's magical little waffling act between the two leading candidates today is doing precious little to endear him to me.  But, as things stand, without any other support, I'm more interested in keeping Steve in the lead.


Mason, that was some lovely commentary on Evangeline and Sandor, do you have anything to say about the leading trains at the moment?

[Suwako Moriya]

Whoops, looks like the mask just came off! What a terrible mod, can't even keep her own Anon a secret.

Anyway!

Vote Chart
 
Miyako Miyamura (1): Silver Medal
Shannon (4): Evangeline A.K. McDowell, Miyako Miyamura, Razeluxe Meitzan, Stuff Man, Saki Marimi, Razeluxe Meitzen
John McClane (0): Stone Mason
Sandor Clegane (1): Saki Marimi, Shannon, Shoe, Evangeline A.K. McDowell, Shawn Michaels
Stone Mason (1): Sailor Moon, Saki Marimi
Razeluxe Meitzen (0): John McClane
Evangeline A.K. McDowell (2): Steven Stone, Stone Mason
Steven Stone (5): Sandor Clegane, Evangeline A.K. McDowell, Shoe, John McClane. Razeluxe Meitzen, Shannon
 
No vote cast: No one!
 
12 players still alive means 7 votes will lynch, so Steven leads at L-2 with Shannon at L-3. There are about 3 1/2 hours left in the day.

Given Shannon's situation, she will not be modkilled yet, but I am looking into potential long-term solutions.

[Ouja]

I'd imagine Scum without votes'd be thinking, "Oh shit, someone's on Gamzee. Oh shit. Shit shit shit. Fuuuuuck. What do I do? Feign Death? Wait, no, Gamzee's doing that. Shit. OK, another train. Shoe? Yeah, Shoe's a great plan. Wait... wait... I need a reason. Crapsticks, a reason. Uh, Shoe's REALLY AGGRESSIVE. Yeah. There's gotta... there's gotta be something there that... ugh, what, no. That's... what? What is this I don't even- WHAT?"

That aside, I'm not sure what you're trying to solicit from me. I'm not convinced Razeluxe is scum at this point. I'd rather place bets with Shkannon over yonder. Steven... yeah, willing to let it derpfall over. Do you want me to think along with you? I don't even know your alignment.

I know your reasoning is off, though. Very bad reasoning (no offence no offence no offence). "Scum!Raze would probably best do this..." WIFOM. It's WIFOM. "Town!Raze would... do the exact same damn thing because jumping on either case with a flimsy reason would look bad!" Still WIFOM. We don't know what he's thinking. Reasoning from "what he may be thinking" is weird. With the right amount of paranoia you can paint anyone scummy.

Even Shoe. Hell, I can have a field day with paranoia on Shoe.