Rewrite Mafia (Game Over - Town and Third Party Win)

[WHMZakeri]

In general I think Rai's jumps throughout the game are too haphazard and incoherent.  Votes BT (reactionary) -> huhwhat (votepark on Schezo) -> Affinity (content not good) -> Shadoweh (never answered a question) -> Affinity ('bullying').  Let's just say I don't get the transitions from one vote to another (e.g why did he unvote me?), though he might have given his explanations.  And his idea of me bullying people into hammering is really funny; seriously, who does that?

You're trying way to hard with this.

The Switch to HW for the votepark is logical enough. The first switch to you is explained well enough as well. The only thing that becomes iffy is the switch to Shadoweh and then back to you, but that's only if you forget to consider that the switch to Shadoweh was for prodding/pressure. Raikaria's been trying desperately to get a certain piece of information out of her, and I don't think it's actually about getting that information rather than perceiving him as trying to withhold information from the town. When you think about it that way, switching back to you doesn't seem jumpy at all, it's just the fact that he's moving back to you and adding supplemented reasoning for doing so.

But by just pointing out various things that you find scummy without considering the full picture (as you do with Rai),

##Unvote: Huh What
Still watching, but yeah.

Raikaria is Raikaria. Everything he's done wrong can be accounted for by Hanlon's razor.
Kay may or may not be Kay, but compared to Raikaria the stuff he's guilty of is much more damning.
Affinity has gotten more suspicion to me as the result of the recent push against Raikaria.

Just dumping this out real quick, and then I'm going straight to reading.

[Shadoweh]

He says:
At that point the only target more 'viable' than Affinity, who BBM was voting, was Shaman. Therefor the only vote more 'viable' than Affinity's was one that was a hammer. If that isn't saying 'Vote Shaman', I'm not sure what it's saying.

>:T HE SAYS TO STOP FENCE-SITTING. THIS DOES NOT MEAN HAMMER THE OTHER WAGON IT MEANS GIVE DEFINITIVE OPINIONS OF OTHER PEOPLE. HE DOESN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT VOTING, GOD. A wagon can be viable without having alot of votes on it, for example at least 3 people have expressed willingness to lynch YOU. Incidentally that counters your second point because you were a viable third option, and if I Were Affinity(tm) and I wanted a not-the-wagons wagon you'd be on my hit list. I just can't believe you're doing this. It's the worst confirmation bias I've ever seen. Say, what if SilentShaman is scum, would he be scummy for wanting someone else to hammer then?

I officially don't like votes on Affinity now, the answer he gave before this was quite reasonable and this case makes me legit mad to read.

[Shadoweh]

The Switch to HW for the votepark is logical enough. The first switch to you is explained well enough as well. The only thing that becomes iffy is the switch to Shadoweh and then back to you, but that's only if you forget to consider that the switch to Shadoweh was for prodding/pressure. Raikaria's been trying desperately to get a certain piece of information out of her, and I don't think it's actually about getting that information rather than perceiving him as trying to withhold information from the town. When you think about it that way, switching back to you doesn't seem jumpy at all, it's just the fact that he's moving back to you and adding supplemented reasoning for doing so.

Considering what Raikaria's supplemental reasoning for revoting Affinity is, do you seriously blame him for being suspicious of it? Because it's terrible. Even if you approach it from Raikaria being town as you seem to be, telling someone they're scummy for wanting people voting them to consider other people is backwards wrong.

[WHMZakeri]

Yes, It's terrible on it's own, but Affinity went and listed all of Raikaria's vote changes along with what he perceived their reason to be. He wasn't looking at then seperately, but presented them as separate in order to make Raikaria's voting line seem disjointed.

[Shadoweh]

>.> But his voting does look jumpy and disjointed.

[Shadoweh]

I'm out for a few hours. To remind people where we sit, right now we're 8 hours from deadline. Don't do anything I wouldn't do!

[Raikaria]

OK, let me explain more clearly where I'm getting my point of view from:

I still prefer the BBM vote as opposed to the SS vote, but well, I'm okay with either now given that SS's posts have sort of fit into everyone's suspicions.

Here, Affinity says he's happy to lynch SilentShaman, and agrees with all the arguments put forth. Which raises the question, if Affinity is happy with this lynch, and agrees with all the arguments, why he did not just hammer. It's not like BBM seems to be getting lynched at this point.

@BBM: I'm not interested in what you are saying any more.  Get to the times please; you seem like you are fence-sitting on all the viable targets of the day actually.

I've already explained what is so bad about this part multiple times.

- Affinity himself is a 'viable target' at this point. 2nd most votes in the game. BBM is one of those voting him.
- Affinity, by telling BBM to stop 'fence-sitting' on the 'viable targets of the day' can very easily seem like he is pressureing BBM to hammer Shaman. It's not hard to see that implication, because at that point, Shaman was the 'most viable' lynch, at L-1.

Now combine these points with the former one:
- Affinty says he is happy with a Shaman Lynch, and agrees with all the logic, yet doesn't hammer
- Affinity would rather someone else hammer him so he doesn't get associated with SS's flip. His @BBM heavily implies he wants BBM to hammer.
- We can then coclude, if this is the case, he would know SS's alignment, and therefor, be anti-town.

@Raikaria: Why so jumpy?  Why suddenly lash out at Shadoweh for, of all things, not answering a question instead of returning to your old suspicions.  For all your words, you still seem like you are merely going in and out of the flow with the appropriate reasoning without true backing.

##Unvote
##Vote: Raikaria

After calling out BBM for 'fence-sitting' he then comes up at me with this. Apparently, despite agreeing with all the arguments against Silent Shaman, and thinking BBM is a better-yet lynch, he thinks... being 'jumpy' with your vote is worse than both?

Anyone else see a problem here? Especially when I've explained my reasons for moving my vote several times, and most people can see that? [See: Zakeri's post]

This is hugely hypocritical, doesn't make sense as a vote when he just said he agrees with the SS reasons and thinks BBM is worse. You'd think to surpass both of those he'd have more than 'Jumpy Vote'.

And that's why that particular post by Affinity is so bad.

And that is why I am voting him, and shall remain so unless someone else seriously slips up, or Affinity does something very strongly town. Because the reek of scum from this post is incredible.

[I have no name]

RE: claims
This is first because it happened first in the thread.  HW claimed PGO and requested a character claim.  PGO is null but requesting a character claim, just stating it was ?useful? to me leans towards anti-town. 
Voteblocker is idk, never played with one.  I would like to point out that noticing the vote out of play is non-indicative of alignment as I noticed it when I was hardly even following the game.

All his posts are really self-conscious.

Serela was flailing because of ludicrous accusations.  Looks like going for an easy lynch to me (I believe this was a srs vote right past RVS).

I read Schezo's posts and agree he is probably mafia.

At the time, Schezo hadn?t replaced out or said he was going to replace out and had no real content.  Was he scum for having 3 1 line posts due to other things?  Am I scum due to being in his slot?
SilentShaman with quotewalls makes the posts looks a lot bigger than they are.  The actual content in the posts isn?t -bad- per se, that I?ve seen anyway.
Shadoweh is rather quiet, though explained by not having a vote.  Still worrisome that she not her usual smiley self.  (though this became fixed the farther in I got, probably just timezones)

I don't know about anyone else, but that seems a bit off to me. You guys did say to go with a gut feeling, and this is what I got right now besides Affinity.

Votecount
Affinity(4): BigBangMeteor, huh what, Serela, Raikaria
Schezo(2): Affinity, Validon98

Voting alongside a scumread, bussing exists so it doesn?t mean it?s not a good vote but the fact that it wasn?t taken into account, at all, is a bit?odd to me.  I?m not sure how else to describe it.
Affinity?s first post?there?s nothing wrong with it.  He got wagoned for reasons I don?t understand. #182 is a very good response, and alerted me to BBM.  Will need to look at him when I have more time.
Bardiche is 10/10 would sheep on SilentShaman because I wasn?t seeing any play improvement from the beginning of the game.
Validon reads as legit confused to me, partly because when I first played I was legit confused on the same level as this XD.

If someone does something that looks suspicious, it should be considered after whatever provoked it is over. If the intent of something seems scummy, that's not something that should be ignored or dismissed as being "over".

Yes but sometimes in light of more recent information things that looked scummy don?t end up looking scummy, or townie looking things look scummy.

As it stands now I think my preferred order for today's lynch would be huh what->SilentShaman->Affinity, due to #248.  His point against Shadoweh is very weak as it compares someone without a vote to people who haven't been voting (for various reasons).  The point against Raikaria is also weak to me, as attacking someone for not answering a question multiple times (I'm pretty sure that question was asked multiple times, if not then this point holds slightly more water but avoiding questions can be seen as a scummy action) is a perfectly valid reason to vote someone.

Holding off on voting until a votecount to not accidentally derp-hammer and cut the day short.  Consider my vote on HW unless something changes before the day ends, however.

[I have no name]

Also I'm going to be away starting in around an hour for probably about 2 hours, just putting that out there now.  Will respond to things when I return and place my vote down after the next votecount.

[WHMZakeri]

I don't think Jumpy and Disjointed is a scumtell.
Especially not on day one.

Devil's Avocado time~
1. There's lot of reasons why Affinity wouldn't hammer: The most prominent being that there's still time for discussion. What town reason would he have for hammering early?
2.1 Ignoring the fact that Affinity is one of two viable wagons, what are the sorts of reasons one would ask to "Make a define opinion on people."
2.2 What reason would Affinity have to ask for another to make a definite opinion on himself? Why does the fact that he's asking mean that he's hoping the person he's asking would preclude himself from the results?
3. Does hippocritcal behavior dictate that a person is always scum?

I still think Raikaria is town and Affinity is suspicion due to the way he presented his case on Raikaria. I just think that answering these questions will help Rai see what people think the problems in his argument are.

[Raikaria]

Devil's Avocado time~
1. There's lot of reasons why Affinity wouldn't hammer: The most prominent being that there's still time for discussion. What town reason would he have for hammering early?
2.1 Ignoring the fact that Affinity is one of two viable wagons, what are the sorts of reasons one would ask to "Make a define opinion on people."
2.2 What reason would Affinity have to ask for another to make a definite opinion on himself? Why does the fact that he's asking mean that he's hoping the person he's asking would preclude himself from the results?
3. Does hippocritcal behavior dictate that a person is always scum?

1. Yes, there's still time for discussion, but D1 was drawing to a close, and enough people had consensus on Shaman to lynch him. You know what usually happens D1 when we postpone a lynch. We end up making some hurried consolidation vote, and lynch someone who's just been posting a lot and therefor has the most things to find a hole in to use against them. If 6/11 votes come to an agreement, there's not really much else to discuss. Saying you agree with the argument and then not hammering is a weird move to me.

2.1. Except the ONLY other 'viable lynch' was one at L-1. If BBM decided Shaman was worthy of lynching, he probobly would have hammered. He couldn't have realistically been asking for opinions on everyone else with that wording, and the fact that after everyone bit my head off for doing the same thing, BBM wouldn't likely follow that example.

2.2. You are confusing me with what you are asking here. Affinity doesn't want to hammer because [Theory] he knows SS would flip town, and therefor hammering would raise suspicion. There's his benefit for wanting BBM to hammer.

3. When combined with everything else wrong in that post? It's certainly a scumtell.

[Raikaria]

Addition to 1:

The aim of the game is to lynch who you think is scum. Affinity said he agrees with the argument for Silent's lynch, yet didn't... you know... lynch him. The aim of the game is not to discuss in rings all day then go to a rushed consolidation lynch.

[Serela]

I'm not paying as much attention as I should right now, but I'd like to mention that if Affinity hammered SS, everyone would probably punch him in the fucking face tomorrow. Raikaria, stop arguing that that is weird.

[Serela]

At least, if he had hammered back then.

People might not be as mad right now, where half the game is talking about how they're not going to be here for most of the remaining time, but. They'd still probably be miffed.

[Raikaria]

I'm not paying as much attention as I should right now, but I'd like to mention that if Affinity hammered SS, everyone would probably punch him in the fucking face tomorrow. Raikaria, stop arguing that that is weird.

Not my point, or at least the key point.

He then implies BBM should hammer [To avoid said being punched in the face], and then places his vote for reasons both hypocritical [He proceeds to do exactly what he is telling BBM to not do], and illogical [He agrees with the SS lynch, says BBM is his preferred over that... then votes me for having a 'jumpy vote]

That's what's wrong.

And yes, it is weird to not lynch someone who you think is scum, especially when there is a majority.

[Serela]

No, it's not. People do not just run around hammering willy-nilly. There isn't even any counterwagon existent to have to worry about right now. Everyone would jump on him for doing it, and since he's already suspicious, it'd be suicidal. You might not agree, but I think -everyone else- would think it was horrible.

It's not even smart from a scum perspective, because Affinity shouldn't need to worry about getting lynched in the current situation. SS looks almost guaranteed to be it. Why would he go around trying to get it to happen immediately?

Where did Affinity imply BBM should hammer? This sounds silly and I doubt it's true.

[Serela]

You seem to be mistaking "Affinity not hammering" for "Affinity not thinking SS should be lynched over himself", which are absolutely nothing alike considering there is a helluva lotta time left in the day and there's not even a wagon on himself last I checked.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

IHNN's "vote" on me is beyond awful. Out of three cases, the one he wants to pursue is based on RVS shit? Note that I already explained the Schezo vote later which means he's not reading the posts of his #1 suspect.

Shadoweh, I don't know what Kay typically claims because the last times I've seen her be scum were in special cases (one was role madness, the other an open set-up where she was the last scum alive).

I still think Kay is scum even considering the claim. Not really convinced by the Raikaria/Affinity slapfighting.

BBM mite b scum.

[Raikaria]

You seem to be mistaking "Affinity not hammering" for "Affinity not thinking SS should be lynched over himself", which are absolutely nothing alike considering there is a helluva lotta time left in the day and there's not even a wagon on himself last I checked.

Except you missed the part where he implies that BBM should vote the 'viable lynch' and stop 'sitting on the fence'. Which is heavily implying he wanted BBM to hammer.

[Serela]

Viable lynch =/= Person that has several votes on them

A viable lynch is anyone that several people think is scummy. Like Affinity. Or possibly yourself.

[I have no name]

IHNN's "vote" on me is beyond awful. Out of three cases, the one he wants to pursue is based on RVS shit? Note that I already explained the Schezo vote later which means he's not reading the posts of his #1 suspect.

That's not the only thing I found you scummy on.  I don't have the time to go back through and point out everything I found scummy in your play and why at the moment, but when I return I can do that if you want.

[Raikaria]

Viable lynch =/= Person that has several votes on them

A viable lynch is anyone that several people think is scummy. Like Affinity. Or possibly yourself.

Or Silent Shaman.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Well your case is going to fall apart when the person I've been voting all day flips scum so :colbert:.

[Serela]

That request is perfectly normal, since at consolidation you need to be voting someone people might actually lynch, and just because Kay is the only person with a big wagon does NOT mean Kay is the only viable lynch. That'd be dumb, it's d1 and there is not only one person who people think is scummy enough to kill.

Trying to say "affinity is implying BBM should hammer" is like if I told you that you should get some candy for your blood sugar level, and there happened to be a baby with a lollipop in the room, and you start yelling at me for telling me to steal the baby's lollipop. It's just "wtf are you even talking about?" It's not what he said at all.

[Serela]

I'm going to stop responding to you at this point btw, you're clearly a brick wall. :T

[Serela]

start yelling at me for telling YOU to steal*

[Raikaria]

That request is perfectly normal, since at consolidation you need to be voting someone people might actually lynch, and just because Kay is the only person with a big wagon does NOT mean Kay is the only viable lynch. That'd be dumb, it's d1 and there is not only one person who people think is scummy enough to kill.

Trying to say "affinity is implying BBM should hammer" is like if I told you that you should get some candy for your blood sugar level, and there happened to be a baby with a lollipop in the room, and you start yelling at me for telling me to steal the baby's lollipop. It's just "wtf are you even talking about?" It's not what he said at all.

Except it is a reflection. 5 people thought Kay was bad enough to lynch. 6 people had expressed desire to lynch him. If that's not a 'viable' lynch in a town with 11 votes, 6/11, then I'm not sure what is.

Also, if I actually thought SS was scum, and followed the arguments, I would have hammered myself. I'm not afraid of being called out for hammering who I think is scum. You shouldn't be. Affinity shouldn't be.

Anyway, since you said you'll stop responding to me, I'll stop bothering to convince you. I don't need to do that. I need to convince any 5 other people that Affinity's recent posts were bad enough to vote him.

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

we should just hammer kay right now imho. quickhammers on scum own

[GMOFucker: Makin' GMOs To Fuck 'Em]

Raikaria why aren't you hammering Kay??

[Serela]

One more since I see something that could possibly get one of my points across

Except it is a reflection. 5 people thought Kay was bad enough to lynch. 6 people had expressed desire to lynch him. If that's not a 'viable' lynch in a town with 11 votes, 6/11, then I'm not sure what is.

Yes, Kay is a viable lynch.

Your flawed logic is in going "Since Kay is a viable lynch, Affinity saying to vote a viable lynch clearly means he MUST be telling BBM to hammer Kay", as opposed to it possibly meaning ANY OF THE OTHER VIABLE LYNCHES WE HAVE, of which there is more then one. Affinity trying to tell BBM to hammer Kay, especially in what would be such a retardedly roundabout fashion, would
A.Makes NO SENSE from any alignment save maybe Jester
B.Obviously not succeed in any reality, unless BBM was going to hammer of his own accord anyway
C.I don't even know I'm going to go take a nap bye